How do I validate parent with BPD?

[AsianSon]

I need help.  I have been reading up on, and trying to understand, validation. 

I can see how it would work in the general world, such as with a spouse, child, or friend (or maybe even stranger).  It also makes sense for BPD situations in a spouse, SO, child, or sibling. 

But I have a problem seeing it with my BPDm and enabling father. 

As I understand it, a parent with BPD has high or very high validation needs.  So we should try to provide for them in a healthy and constructive way.  This is to help calm their negative emotions and help them feel connected.   

A validation response doesn't mean I agree with what was said or done, it is only suppose to express that I can see things from her viewpoint.  The goal is to genuinely demonstrate that I understand, that I accept her right to her feelings (even if I don't agree with them).

I am having huge problems with how to handle the last part while validating because if I successfully validate, then my BPDm will grab hold of the "connection" and react by requiring me to "help her" by changing to suit her.  This is a way for her to maintain enmeshment (and control) far before any calming of negative emotions can occur. 

So I would be validating with almost certainty of shifting the interaction to maintaining my boundaries.  To me, defending a boundary doesn't help the interaction (or relationship) because her emotional state will remain high. 

In summary, successfully validating my BPDm means helping her feel more connected in the relationship.  But she WILL use that connection to assert her demands (both valid and invalid). 

Further validating won't help because her focus is on why I don't do as she feels or she needs or she wants.  Shifting to another technique seems late because if validating created or maintained the problem, I shouldn't have done it in the first place. 

What am I missing?

[Louise7777]

Great thread, Asian Son. I dont think I can help you, but Im interested in seeing other´s responses. 

I have similar experiences with my uBPD relatives: if you dont disagree it means you agree (thats their perception). Sometimes you give a hand and they want the whole arm... . What I saw is the black hole, never is enough, they are like children wanting more and more.

What I used successfully was medium chill. I dont think thats what you are looking for, but thats the only thing that worked for me, apart from NC.

If I had to give you a response, Id say validate and enforce even more your boundaries. Statements like "thats impossible for me" are something I learnt here, but if I try that I get raged at... .

[clljhns]

Hi AsianSon,

I am having huge problems with how to handle the last part while validating because if I successfully validate, then my BPDm will grab hold of the "connection" and react by requiring me to "help her" by changing to suit her.  This is a way for her to maintain enmeshment (and control) far before any calming of negative emotions can occur. 

So I would be validating with almost certainty of shifting the interaction to maintaining my boundaries.  To me, defending a boundary doesn't help the interaction (or relationship) because her emotional state will remain high. 

In summary, successfully validating my BPDm means helping her feel more connected in the relationship.  But she WILL use that connection to assert her demands (both valid and invalid). 

I could be wrong, but I don't think validation means that you will loosen your boundaries to the point of enmeshment. Enmeshment and connection are really two different concepts. Enmeshment means that you have relinquished your boundaries to meet the needs of the other person (and in some way meeting a need within you). Connection, I think you mean this to be a mutual respect and give-and-take in communication and interactions with another person. I really don't see this as a possibility with a BPD. This is not to say that you can't communicate with a BPD without being sucked in.

The last year before I went NC with parents, I found myself not really reacting to my mom's  crazy behaviors. I found that when I didn't engage, she would change the subject or act like a wounded child. I would just ignore this, knowing all the while that she was disappointed she didn't get the reaction she wanted. It was effective for a while, but didn't last long. She would start all over again, and I would get sucked in again. However, I didn't have any of the tools that I have found on this site. I don't know now if would have made a difference, but I know it would have been helpful to me.

Have you read the article J.A.D.E. in the resources section? Has some great tips for communicating in a non-emotional way. There are also many other references to dealing with a BPD person.

A validation response doesn't mean I agree with what was said or done, it is only suppose to express that I can see things from her viewpoint.  The goal is to genuinely demonstrate that I understand, that I accept her right to her feelings (even if I don't agree with them).

Right. When I had contact with my family, one such instance sticks out in my mind that relates to what you are getting at. My oldest sister would often try to beat me over the head with her religion. She invited herself to my home for dinner and also asked our parents to attend. Apparently an spiritual intervention had been planned on my behalf. We had dinner, which I had to cook, and then I began to clean up the kitchen. My sister hugged me and said in her sickeningly sweet voice how much she loved me. Uh, oh. Something is up. She then asked that I sit down at the kitchen table so that she could read the Bible to me.

That had to be one of the most bizarre (well, no, I can think of others that beat this one) interactions we had. She read scriptures to me and I asked why she felt the need to do this. She was concerned about my soul and that I wasn't walking with Jesus because I was obviously having relations outside of marriage while a single woman. Oh, geez. I heard her out, and will admit that I reminded her of some prior actions that would reflect pretty badly on her. This of course did not help. She was intent on saving my soul and telling me what a sinner I was. Okay. Maybe this isn't the best example. But what I did do was thank her caring enough about me to share her concerns. Inside I was thinking something along the lines of pious hypocrite. Nevertheless, our conversation ended on a good note. She was satisfied that she had done her job as a Christian, and I found the situation humorous and good fodder for my next update with bf.

I think my point is that I validated her concerns, while not engaging them. I don't think it matters whether you openly agree with a BPD or not, they will assume that you agree if you are silent and they will assume you agree if just engage the conversation on any level. It has been my experience that the only way a BPD knows you disagree is if you actually use those words. They tend to be very obtuse, and self-centered people.

I hope this helps answer your question in some way.

Peace and blessings 

[clljhns]

I could be wrong, but I don't think validation means that you will loosen your boundaries to the point of enmeshment.

Not what I meant to say. You don't loosen or compromise your boundaries at all! I meant to say that validation doesn't mean you have to compromise your boundaries. If you do, you run the risk of enmeshment.

Sorry about that

[AsianSon]

You don't loosen or compromise your boundaries at all! I meant to say that validation doesn't mean you have to compromise your boundaries. If you do, you run the risk of enmeshment.

I completely agree.  My question/dilemma is the very strong suspicion that for my BPDm, validation would directly lead to a boundary defense (especially in with regard to any boundaries against enmeshment).

So I have trouble seeing validation as helping. 

[clljhns]

Hi AsianSon,

Found some resources that might help:

https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/loving-someone-borderline-personality-disorder

www.netresources.com/asmfmh/?page_id=765

www.borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/06/can-you-validate-your-borderline-loved-one.html

Hope this helps!   

[AsianSon]

The last year before I went NC with parents, I found myself not really reacting to my mom's  crazy behaviors. I found that when I didn't engage, she would change the subject or act like a wounded child. I would just ignore this, knowing all the while that she was disappointed she didn't get the reaction she wanted. It was effective for a while, but didn't last long. She would start all over again, and I would get sucked in again. However, I didn't have any of the tools that I have found on this site. I don't know now if would have made a difference, but I know it would have been helpful to me.

The neediness and emptiness that seem to be part of my BPDm's behaviors make it very difficult to use a "non-engagement" or "medium chill" type response to her.  She will start "waif-like" behaviors, probably because she feels wounded.  Any further "cool" responses tend to trigger anger and rage because she perceives the responses as not giving her what she needs.  

Have you read the article J.A.D.E. in the resources section? Has some great tips for communicating in a non-emotional way. There are also many other references to dealing with a BPD person.

Thanks for reminding me about JADE.  I tend to forget about it because my habits tend to kick in before self-control for dealing with my BPDm.  I know that any justification, argue, defense, or explanation on my part is at high risk of being a trigger to her.  So part of my self-training is to control my habits and focus on things like SET.  

Right. When I had contact with my family, one such instance sticks out in my mind that relates to what you are getting at. My oldest sister would often try to beat me over the head with her religion. She invited herself to my home for dinner and also asked our parents to attend. Apparently an spiritual intervention had been planned on my behalf. We had dinner, which I had to cook, and then I began to clean up the kitchen. My sister hugged me and said in her sickeningly sweet voice how much she loved me. Uh, oh. Something is up. She then asked that I sit down at the kitchen table so that she could read the Bible to me.

That had to be one of the most bizarre (well, no, I can think of others that beat this one) interactions we had. She read scriptures to me and I asked why she felt the need to do this. She was concerned about my soul and that I wasn't walking with Jesus because I was obviously having relations outside of marriage while a single woman. Oh, geez. I heard her out, and will admit that I reminded her of some prior actions that would reflect pretty badly on her. This of course did not help. She was intent on saving my soul and telling me what a sinner I was. Okay. Maybe this isn't the best example. But what I did do was thank her caring enough about me to share her concerns. Inside I was thinking something along the lines of pious hypocrite. Nevertheless, our conversation ended on a good note. She was satisfied that she had done her job as a Christian, and I found the situation humorous and good fodder for my next update with bf.

I think my point is that I validated her concerns, while not engaging them. I don't think it matters whether you openly agree with a BPD or not, they will assume that you agree if you are silent and they will assume you agree if just engage the conversation on any level. It has been my experience that the only way a BPD knows you disagree is if you actually use those words. They tend to be very obtuse, and self-centered people.

Thanks for sharing your experience with your sister.  It certainly sounds like it wasn't easy for you!  And I recognize how you were able to validate your sister's concerns without necessarily agreeing with them.  

I think my original question is due more to the majority of interactions with my BPDm, which tend to revolve around her "needs" and how others have (allegedly) not lived up their duties and responsibilities in that regard.  

So if this was the situation with your sister, it might be more like she has a need to save you AND you have a duty/responsibility to help her with that.  I suspect that if your sister had that mindset, then a validation of her concern may lead to her wanting more sessions to fill that need.  

Thank you again for your thoughts and insights.  I greatly appreciate them.  

Peace and strength to all of us.  

[AsianSon]

www.netresources.com/asmfmh/?page_id=765

Thanks very much! 

The link quoted above includes the following:

"Validation involves unconditional acceptance: now, no judgment, as they are,- giving up controlling the other nor imposing your values or views. Porr says that to communicate unconditional acceptance, you need to make an active effort to listen and observe what is said and how it is said, felt or done in a nonjudgmental manner so that you can understand what is actually being said and be able to unconditionally validate the person. People with BPP need to feel unconditional acceptance; love is not enough. Porr asks that we accommodate them like you would if the person needed a wheel chair or you would cook differently if they had allergies."

I think that the quote fits well with my original question, where unconditional acceptance may lead the parent with BPD to reach for even more, leading (almost without fail) to boundary enforcement. 

But on the other hand, if the quote is viewed as pointing out that validation is a form of kindness to be given without any expectation of return or response, it fits with part of the video at this link:

www.borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/06/can-you-validate-your-borderline-loved-one.html

which mentions that validation should not be done with any expectation of any particular result.  This is very interesting because I did not consider it this way, especially when compared to SET, where the "truth" in T does seem to have an intended outcome.  (I had been comparing validation to the "E" in SET.) 

The video also has some points about when and whether validation will work with the pwBPD. 

Thanks again!

[clljhns]

  Glad it was helpful!

[P.F.Change]

which mentions that validation should not be done with any expectation of any particular result.  This is very interesting because I did not consider it this way, especially when compared to SET, where the "truth" in T does seem to have an intended outcome.  (I had been comparing validation to the "E" in SET.) 

AsianSon, it can be tricky to learn to use validation effectively--not just for us here at bpdfamily, but for the population in general. One thing I don't need to point out because you've noticed already is that validation isn't a way to control someone else's behavior. All the tools we have here can help minimize conflict, but none of them is guaranteed to calm someone else down or ensure that they hear us. They also won't make the person feel all their needs are met or magically transform them into someone who will stop making demands of us. We can't cure them.

That said, the intended outcome of using SET is to state a Truth. Note it is not to make the other person understand our truth or respect our truth, just for us to state it. The Support and Empathy are there to help--many times they do provide enough validation and security that the other person is better able to hear what we are saying--but the goal is still for the speaker to say what he needs to say with as much compassion as possible. We don't have control over how the listener will respond.

I am having huge problems with how to handle the last part while validating because if I successfully validate, then my BPDm will grab hold of the "connection" and react by requiring me to "help her" by changing to suit her.  This is a way for her to maintain enmeshment (and control) far before any calming of negative emotions can occur. 

Validation is not going to eliminate the need to take care of our boundaries. We need to learn to do both.

Let's say my mother is feeling that her doctor is a jerk because he told her she is fat, as if she didn't already know. She is already in so much pain and to have him say this to her is completely unhelpful. She has tried losing weight before and just can't. Now instead of getting help for the pain she is just more ashamed. (All her perspective.)

I know that my mother is obese and much of this is to do with her use of food to comfort her emotional pain coupled with an unwillingness to do things that are hard. I know she feels intense physical pain and that the weight on her body is a major contributing factor. I imagine the doctor proposed weight loss as part of the long-term solution for reducing the pain, which seems wise to me compared to prescribing potentially addicting drugs every time she hurts, which is a lot. (My perspective.)

What is my mother looking for when she tells me this story? Maybe she wants to feel understood. Maybe she is looking for someone else to manage her feelings of shame; maybe she would like someone to validate that she is a Victim and her doctor is a Persecutor. Maybe she would like me to Rescue her by comforting her hurt feelings. PERSPECTIVES:Conflict dynamics/Karpman triangle

An INVALIDATING response on my part would be:

"He's right, you are fat, and it is making your body hurt. If you want to stop hurting, maybe you should stop eating out every single meal." DON'T

A response that VALIDATES THE INVALID would be:

"I'm sorry your doctor made you feel bad. A lot of people are overweight, he should know how hard it is and not make people feel ashamed about it. It must feel awful to have him call you fat when you trusted him to help you feel better. " DON'T

A VALIDATING response that lets her be responsible for managing her own health and feelings would be:

"It sounds like you're feeling your doctor does not understand what you are going through. That must be tough. What do you want to do? I am sure you will be able to think of a solution that works for you." DO

A VALIDATING response using S.E.T. would be:

"I'm sorry you are having a hard time with your doctor. I think it would hurt my feelings if I felt misunderstood and insulted by someone I trust. I imagine doctors see a lot of patients who are experiencing pain from the strain of extra weight on their bodies, so I can see how maybe he thought that solution might help you reduce your pain." DO

We have some good material here on validation that you may have already seen. Here are a couple:

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)

Do you have any examples of the kind of situation are you working on with your mother?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[AsianSon]

Hi P.F.Change,

Thank you very much for your response and helpful comments!  You have given me much to think about (and a great deal of help).

validation isn't a way to control someone else's behavior. All the tools we have here can help minimize conflict, but none of them is guaranteed to calm someone else down or ensure that they hear us. They also won't make the person feel all their needs are met or magically transform them into someone who will stop making demands of us. We can't cure them.

Thank you for reminding me of this.  I think my questioning stems from the likely BPD behavior of my mother using the validation to try and control me--without having the more desirable effect of calming her.

That said, the intended outcome of using SET is to state a Truth. Note it is not to make the other person understand our truth or respect our truth, just for us to state it. The Support and Empathy are there to help--many times they do provide enough validation and security that the other person is better able to hear what we are saying--but the goal is still for the speaker to say what he needs to say with as much compassion as possible. We don't have control over how the listener will respond.

 

Thank you for this.  It helps me think about the possibilities of different "kinds" of Truth.  Previously, I had only viewed it as a personal truth in the sense that it involved me or my view to a large degree.  Your SET example below uses an almost third party kind of Truth that minimally involves the speaker:

A VALIDATING response using S.E.T. would be:

"I'm sorry you are having a hard time with your doctor. I think it would hurt my feelings if I felt misunderstood and insulted by someone I trust. I imagine doctors see a lot of patients who are experiencing pain from the strain of extra weight on their bodies, so I can see how maybe he thought that solution might help you reduce your pain." DO

This is very helpful.  The statement conveys a third party Truth about the doctor's experience and actions. 

This makes me think that SET can be even more useful than I thought. 

A VALIDATING response that lets her be responsible for managing her own health and feelings would be:

"It sounds like you're feeling your doctor does not understand what you are going through. That must be tough. What do you want to do? I am sure you will be able to think of a solution that works for you." DO

... .

Do you have any examples of the kind of situation are you working on with your mother?

I will stay with your example with the addition of my mother's likely reaction to the above validation.  She would have me do something "to help" her with her feelings toward her doctor.  For example, find a new doctor for her, speak to the doctor for her, find some other way to deal with her medical condition, etc.

This is the kind of "help me" or "rescue me" behavior that my mother uses (perhaps as a way to meet her needs/wants).  But it immediately brings up boundaries and issues of whether I am enabling her BPD if I do what she asks.  This is why I have trouble seeing the use of simple validating statements with her. 

On the other hand, your SET example would work much better because it doesn't leave a clear opening for her to use.  (Although I can still see my mother with a possible negative split response on the doctor and go off on how he isn't any good and so she needs a new doctor, etc... .   Ah, the depth of the BPD continues to amaze me.   )

My limitation with SET, however, is that I don't come up with appropriate Truths fast enough.  That's why I was studying validating statements as a possible simpler method, especially when I don't have an appropriate Truth ready.  But it seems that this may not be an option. 

Thank you again for your thoughtful help and kindness. 

Peace to us all,

A

So maybe the solution is to get really good at quickly identifying and using Truths.  (No pressure at all... .    ) 

[Ziggiddy]

Dear AsianSon

I can see your difficulty in trying to facilitate communication that doesn't compromise your needs or allow your mother to take on the position she wants which is to be central to you. I at times find my own mother vacillating between "No one can help me properly, no one understands" and "You are so helpful and smart and competent - why don't you make them help me?" or "What do YOU think I should do?"

It occurred to me recently that any method of discussing the topic was going to lead to her intended goal - being the centre. Changing the subject triggers her sulky reaction so I decided to do this "It's not good to be in pain. No one likes it. What do you think you should do? What would you like to do?" Questions like this always elicit a lengthy detailed response which will begin with a description of her 'special' problem and eventually lead to a friend's neighbour's daughter's cousin and the meal they ordered for lunch at a cafe I never heard of. It's not ideal but it's better than argument or histrionics. my backup plan is to make lists in my head. Attend to 'mental housekeeping' She has all the benefits of describing everything and I have the nominal obligation of partially listening.

I have asserted my desire for a bit less detail for years and years. She refuses to respect that so I refuse to listen properly.

Obviously it may be different for your mother but what I'm getting at is to find a benign middle ground that doesn't cause either of you pain. You are a good person to take the initiative in trying to get along and you are entitled to being met halfway. If that isn't extended to you by your mother it may be worth having one generic backup plan rather than trying to cover all contingencies. It would be a shame if you had to wear yourself out in the details and the effort.

It seems to me you have an analytical mind and approach like problem solving. Me I find this can turn into me caretaking pre emptively and can cause the very thing that I'm trying to avoid - being responsible for my mum's feelings.

Anyway best of luck to you - I hope it goes well and will be interested to see what you post next )

[livednlearned]

I will stay with your example with the addition of my mother's likely reaction to the above validation.  She would have me do something "to help" her with her feelings toward her doctor.  For example, find a new doctor for her, speak to the doctor for her, find some other way to deal with her medical condition, etc.

This is the kind of "help me" or "rescue me" behavior that my mother uses (perhaps as a way to meet her needs/wants).  But it immediately brings up boundaries and issues of whether I am enabling her BPD if I do what she asks.  This is why I have trouble seeing the use of simple validating statements with her.  

It sounds like what you're saying is that validation fuels your mom when she is in victim mode, which then makes you feel more drawn into a rescuer role. If you don't validate her, then she might shift into persecutor role. Is that the dynamic you're describing with validation?

So you don't want her to be in either role, because you don't want to be her rescuer. Period. Ideally, you want a tool that helps you step outside the perpetrator-victim-rescuer dynamic, and validation is a good tool, but not quite the one to zap the triangle.

In the TED version of the Karpman Triangle, the Rescuer tries to behave like a Coach, which ideally shifts the role of Victim to Creator:

The final role of the TED triangle is that of coach. Instead of Rescuing someone, a coach asks questions that are intended to help the individual to make informed choices. The key differentiation between a rescuer and a coach is that the coach sees the individual as capable of making choices and of solving their own problems. A coach asks questions that enable the individual to see the possibilities for positive action, to focus on what they do want instead of what they do not want. Coaches see victims as creators in their own right and meet them as equals. This process interrupts the drama cycle and puts the former victim in the powerful position of creator where they make informed choices and focus on outcomes instead of problems.

Would this be hard to do with your mom? Using P.F. Change's example, if your mom feels validated by you, and then capitalizes on your empathy and demands you help her find a good doctor, could you become a Coach instead of a Rescuer?

Let's say your mom says, "Yes! My doctor made me feel so bad and he's a bad doctor. I need a new one. You need to find a new doctor for me."

(Assuming you have just validated her, which is why she is asking for you to help her). Could you say, "What is the best way for your to pick your next doctor?" Or "Have you thought about what kind of doctor you want?" Or "What are the qualities you want in your next doctor?"

That way, she has to come up with answers on her own, you're engaged with her, but aren't making any commitments to actually find a doctor for her.

I'm curious about whether this would work or not -- I can see how this would work with my enabling mom, but can't quite picture how this would work with my uBPD brother or N/BPDxh.

[P.F.Change]

I will stay with your example with the addition of my mother's likely reaction to the above validation.  She would have me do something "to help" her with her feelings toward her doctor.  For example, find a new doctor for her, speak to the doctor for her, find some other way to deal with her medical condition, etc.

I really like the way livednlearned summed up the TED (The Empowerment Dynamic) model... I had forgotten about that version, but it is essentially what I was going to suggest and what Ziggiddy was getting at also. When we are Rescuer it reinforces the other person's Victim stance--not good for either of us. It is much better when we can encourage others to make their own choices and let them own the responsibility. I think Understanding the Borderline Mother also recommended Coach-type statements to use, if I remember correctly.

So, in this case, let's suppose our mother replies as you suggested. "He's so horrible. I can't go back to him but I don't know where else to go and I'm in so much pain all the time. I wish you'd call your doctor and get me an appointment. That will be easy because then you can take me there."

What now?

Well, clearly this puts me in an uncomfortable position. I have a good relationship with my doctor and her staff and don't really want to jeopardize that, it feels weird to me to think about sharing a doctor with my mother or any of the things she might say about me, and I don't like being volunteered to drive her to her appointments or sit through them with her. Those icky feelings are a signal to me that I have some boundaries that need looking after.

There are some options. One is the handy-dandy SET:

"I care about you and want to be supportive. I can see how it might seem easier for you if I took care of getting you an appointment. Still, that isn't going to work for me."

Then there is Coach:

"I believe in you, I'm sure you will be able to find another doctor on your own."

And there's just flat-out

"No. I'm not going to be able to do that," if she persists.

I like using the coach as an add-on to SET.

What do you think, AsianSon? Can Coach statements help you put responsibility for taking care of your mother back in her hands?

[AsianSon]

Hi Ziggiddy,

Thank you very much for your reply and helpful comments. 

It occurred to me recently that any method of discussing the topic was going to lead to her intended goal - being the centre. Changing the subject triggers her sulky reaction so I decided to do this "It's not good to be in pain. No one likes it. What do you think you should do? What would you like to do?"

I haven't thought about this type of approach--thank you for the suggestion. 

Obviously it may be different for your mother but what I'm getting at is to find a benign middle ground that doesn't cause either of you pain.

Exactly!  I am trying to find a "ready" approach that acknowledges (validates) her (to help calm or keep her calm) without trigger her to turn the situation into "her as the center" and having me act according to her view. 

Thanks again!

A

[AsianSon]

Hi livednlearned,

Thank you very much for your detailed thoughts and suggestions!

It sounds like what you're saying is that validation fuels your mom when she is in victim mode, which then makes you feel more drawn into a rescuer role. If you don't validate her, then she might shift into persecutor role. Is that the dynamic you're describing with validation?

So you don't want her to be in either role, because you don't want to be her rescuer. Period. Ideally, you want a tool that helps you step outside the perpetrator-victim-rescuer dynamic, and validation is a good tool, but not quite the one to zap the triangle.

I may be coming to the conclusion that my BPDm is "validation resistant."  This may be because, as you suggest, she places herself into victim mode and tries to pull me in as a rescuer.  My intent with validation is to calm her, not have her further manifest her behaviors. 

In the TED version of the Karpman Triangle, the Rescuer tries to behave like a Coach, which ideally shifts the role of Victim to Creator:

The final role of the TED triangle is that of coach. Instead of Rescuing someone, a coach asks questions that are intended to help the individual to make informed choices. The key differentiation between a rescuer and a coach is that the coach sees the individual as capable of making choices and of solving their own problems. A coach asks questions that enable the individual to see the possibilities for positive action, to focus on what they do want instead of what they do not want. Coaches see victims as creators in their own right and meet them as equals. This process interrupts the drama cycle and puts the former victim in the powerful position of creator where they make informed choices and focus on outcomes instead of problems.

Would this be hard to do with your mom? Using P.F. Change's example, if your mom feels validated by you, and then capitalizes on your empathy and demands you help her find a good doctor, could you become a Coach instead of a Rescuer?

Let's say your mom says, "Yes! My doctor made me feel so bad and he's a bad doctor. I need a new one. You need to find a new doctor for me."

(Assuming you have just validated her, which is why she is asking for you to help her). Could you say, "What is the best way for your to pick your next doctor?" Or "Have you thought about what kind of doctor you want?" Or "What are the qualities you want in your next doctor?"

That way, she has to come up with answers on her own, you're engaged with her, but aren't making any commitments to actually find a doctor for her.

I'm curious about whether this would work or not -- I can see how this would work with my enabling mom, but can't quite picture how this would work with my uBPD brother or N/BPDxh.

I had not heard about the "coach" approach, so thank you very much for introducing it to me. 

I'm not sure it would work, mainly because the questions seem open enough for her to say that the best thing for her is to have one of her children help solve her perceived problem. 

Maybe the source of all this is that my mom has such a core of emptiness and loneliness that she is like the "black hole" that is fixated on being filled. 

Thank you again. 

A

[AsianSon]

Hi PF Change,

Thank you for your considered comments.  I greatly appreciate them.   

So, in this case, let's suppose our mother replies as you suggested. "He's so horrible. I can't go back to him but I don't know where else to go and I'm in so much pain all the time. I wish you'd call your doctor and get me an appointment. That will be easy because then you can take me there."

What now?

... .

Then there is Coach:

"I believe in you, I'm sure you will be able to find another doctor on your own."

... .

I like using the coach as an add-on to SET.

What do you think, AsianSon? Can Coach statements help you put responsibility for taking care of your mother back in her hands?

I suspect that the coach statement above will trigger a "you aren't helping me" response. 

And the SET that preceded it would probably already have be received as a boundary that limits her.  Which would probably mean a boundary enforcement that might preempt the coach statement. 

It is amazing to me how her behaviors can be so tough.

A

[P.F.Change]

I suspect that the coach statement above will trigger a "you aren't helping me" response. 

And the SET that preceded it would probably already have be received as a boundary that limits her.  Which would probably mean a boundary enforcement that might preempt the coach statement. 

Here's where we come back to the fact that validation is not going to control your mother or eliminate your need to defend your boundaries. It is not going to make her like or understand what you have to say--it just gives you a nice way to say it that recognizes her right to feel how she feels and asserts your right to feel how you feel. She doesn't have to agree, and she probably won't much of the time.

I may be coming to the conclusion that my BPDm is "validation resistant."  This may be because, as you suggest, she places herself into victim mode and tries to pull me in as a rescuer.  My intent with validation is to calm her, not have her further manifest her behaviors. 

Two things here: First, again, you can't control her behavior, no matter how well you validate and use the tools. You can't make her calm.

Second, it might be worth pointing out that validation has a tendency to backfire on people with NPD--they often perceive it as condescending or presumptuous. Your phrase "validation resistant" leads me to ask, does your mother have NPD as well?

Validation has its place in the toolbox, but it doesn't do every job. I might use SET the first couple of times and then I just have to say "No," and "That doesn't work for me," and "I'm not going to do that," and "I'm done discussing this."

In our example scenario, your mother feels upset that you aren't helping her. What does that say about you? What is your job?

PF

[AsianSon]

Here's where we come back to the fact that validation is not going to control your mother or eliminate your need to defend your boundaries.

You are quite right in that I am not out to control my mother.  I was thinking to see about validation as a way of communicating with her while also reducing the frequency of defending boundaries.  It may be that I'm looking for something that does not exist.   

It is not going to make her like or understand what you have to say--it just gives you a nice way to say it that recognizes her right to feel how she feels and asserts your right to feel how you feel. She doesn't have to agree, and she probably won't much of the time.

My understanding is that validation is a way to recognize her feelings, while I would NOT be asserting how I feel (which is fine by me).  The complication is my experience that if her feelings are recognized/understood, she will then take the next step of pushing for action based on that recognition.  So I was having trouble seeing how to validate.   

I may be coming to the conclusion that my BPDm is "validation resistant."  This may be because, as you suggest, she places herself into victim mode and tries to pull me in as a rescuer.  My intent with validation is to calm her, not have her further manifest her behaviors. 

Two things here: First, again, you can't control her behavior, no matter how well you validate and use the tools. You can't make her calm.

I completely agree, and I apologize for being careless with my wording above.  I am not out to control her.  I was, however, thinking of validation as a means of recognizing her feelings without adding any fuel to her behaviors.  If validation has an effect of calming her, great!  But really, I was (and am) trying to see if validation can be a way of communicating with her in a non-escalating manner.   

Second, it might be worth pointing out that validation has a tendency to backfire on people with NPD--they often perceive it as condescending or presumptuous. Your phrase "validation resistant" leads me to ask, does your mother have NPD as well?

Thank you very much for this!  I did not know about the "contraindication" of validation for NPD.  Regarding NPD, I cannot say for certain about my mother.  It may be good to note, however, that in the waif/hermit/queen/witch model, she presents quite strongly as queen, which has both BPD and NPD traits (at least according to what I've read).

Validation has its place in the toolbox, but it doesn't do every job. I might use SET the first couple of times and then I just have to say "No," and "That doesn't work for me," and "I'm not going to do that," and "I'm done discussing this."

In our example scenario, your mother feels upset that you aren't helping her. What does that say about you? What is your job?

I think I am coming to the conclusion that SET is the way to go.  I will keep practicing and get better at it.  Maybe occasionally I will see chances to use validating statements alone.  However, it may be that validating statements are actually a sort of "gift" that I cannot give to my BPDm because it will tend to inflame BPD behaviors. 

As for me, I want better ways to respond to the example scenario.  I am interested in responding without walking on eggshells and with as much compassion as I can reasonably provide.  If that cannot be done with validating statements alone, SET is my tool of choice for now. 

I don't think I view the situation as a "job."  Maybe more as learning and using better communications as necessary due to her BPD mind.  Also, maybe I was looking for a "short cut" because to me, SET is more work.  From the saying "no rest for the weary," it seems there is little rest for children weary from BPD parents.   

At some point, I think I will summarize what I've concluded from this thread to make it more helpful. 

A

[P.F.Change]

Glad to hear we are on the same page.

My understanding is that validation is a way to recognize her feelings, while I would NOT be asserting how I feel (which is fine by me).  

Yes, you are right, validation is just about recognizing what someone else is feeling or experiencing. I had lumped it in with SET, which involves validation through empathy and is a way to assert a truth. There is a distinction there, good catch.

The complication is my experience that if her feelings are recognized/understood, she will then take the next step of pushing for action based on that recognition.  So I was having trouble seeing how to validate.    

What do you do when she pushes you?

It may be good to note, however, that in the waif/hermit/queen/witch model, she presents quite strongly as queen, which has both BPD and NPD traits (at least according to what I've read).

That is my understanding as well. In that case, there may be something in this thread that would help you: Dealing with narcissists by reinforcing the positive

I think I am coming to the conclusion that SET is the way to go.  I will keep practicing and get better at it.  Maybe occasionally I will see chances to use validating statements alone.  However, it may be that validating statements are actually a sort of "gift" that I cannot give to my BPDm because it will tend to inflame BPD behaviors.  

Sounds like a plan worth trying.