Advice please: I want to break NC...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

A bit of a turnaround for me given my posts here. My (high functioning hermit, diagnosed) and I have been NC (my choice) for about a year now. At our last contact we were dancing around what would have been our 3rd recycle. I said at the time that if she wanted another go then we'd have to be in therapy together. I told her it was that or nothing. Three times she tried to get me to back off this, and after the last refusal we just stopped communicating. It was amicable but clearly she was battling for control. I suspect that she was involved with someone at the time, but she categorically denied it. Which in BPD world sort of confirmed it for me. 

Anyway, I have no idea what she's been up to the past year but it's her birthday in a few weeks and I want to send her a (snail mail) card. Not worded in any way to suggest I want a reconciliation or even further contact. But I do want her to know I wish her well and that I remembered. She always had a great deal of insecurity about being forgotten and growing older and losing her looks (she's in her early 50s). I've moved since the r/s and she doesn't have my new contact info, and I wouldn't put it on the card. If she tried hard, she could probably find it out though. She had very few friends and she kept a box of all the cards anyone ever sent her and this she used to soothe herself during her bouts of self-neglect and isolation.  I feel sorry for her and if she got therapy I'd probably reconcile but without that I see her case as hopeless. And she says her doctors are all "useless quacks" so not much cause for hope.

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know what I'm doing here... . I don't trust her for a minute but I genuinely wish her well.

[LongGoneEx]

A bit of a turnaround for me given my posts here. My (high functioning hermit, diagnosed) and I have been NC (my choice) for about a year now. At our last contact we were dancing around what would have been our 3rd recycle. I said at the time that if she wanted another go then we'd have to be in therapy together. I told her it was that or nothing. Three times she tried to get me to back off this, and after the last refusal we just stopped communicating. It was amicable but clearly she was battling for control. I suspect that she was involved with someone at the time, but she categorically denied it. Which in BPD world sort of confirmed it for me. 

Anyway, I have no idea what she's been up to the past year but it's her birthday in a few weeks and I want to send her a (snail mail) card. Not worded in any way to suggest I want a reconciliation or even further contact. But I do want her to know I wish her well and that I remembered. She always had a great deal of insecurity about being forgotten and growing older and losing her looks (she's in her early 50s). I've moved since the r/s and she doesn't have my new contact info, and I wouldn't put it on the card. If she tried hard, she could probably find it out though. She had very few friends and she kept a box of all the cards anyone ever sent her and this she used to soothe herself during her bouts of self-neglect and isolation.  I feel sorry for her and if she got therapy I'd probably reconcile but without that I see her case as hopeless. And she says her doctors are all "useless quacks" so not much cause for hope.

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know what I'm doing here... . I don't trust her for a minute but I genuinely wish her well.

[AwakenedOne]

But I do want her to know I wish her well and that I remembered.

I feel sorry for her and if she got therapy I'd probably reconcile but without that I see her case as hopeless. And she says her doctors are all "useless quacks" so not much cause for hope.

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know what I'm doing here... . I don't trust her for a minute but I genuinely wish her well.

Hi LongGoneEx,

Wishing her well and a happy birthday seems like a nice thing to do. Sounds also like you have the same expectations of her as when you guys broke up (her going to therapy) and your standing firm, which sounds ok if that's what you want and are willing to go through a lot of ups and downs with her in the future. Of course she would have to be free / available and willing to get help.

The of your post is this "I don't trust her for a minute".

AO

[Waifed]

If you are truly over her then I would say go for it. That said, if you were completely over her you probably wouldn't have a desire to reconnect in any way with someone who treated you so poorly.

What would a positive outcome after contact be?  Negative outcomes?  I'm nearly 8 months NC and feel pretty confident I have heard the last from my ex based on what I have seem on here since then. You are home free unless your intent is to test the waters... .

Good luck on your decision. Only you know truly what the right answer is.

[2010]

I feel sorry for her and if she got therapy I'd probably reconcile but without that I see her case as hopeless.

Translation: I feel sorry for her and if I got therapy I'd probably reconcile the fact that I choose partners that I perceive to be in a one-down position so that I can feel better about myself. Knowing that they are one-down means that <<I think>> they need me to function in life and while that gives me a sense of self-esteem, it doesn't last. It also triggers my partner's mistrust, because what I'm really doing is siphoning off their power so they are dependent upon me and that's no way for my ex or me to live.

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know what I'm doing here... . I don't trust her for a minute but I genuinely wish her well.

I think you have a year out and you've never learned to let go. Some of the reasons you've given are based on fixer mentality which really distracts you from your own problems. Your problem isn't that you want to break NC. Your problem are the reasons why. Helping = Fixing = controlling = intrusion = no boundaries = vulnerability with the end result being both people fear abandonment because this isn't love, it's need. Follow the need and you will discover yourself. Have you written on the inventory board at all? You might discover your reasons  for being drawn to this woman.

People who get involved with hermits do so for a reason. The hermit also has a reason for being a hermit that existed well before you came into the picture. What a hermit needs is a way to connect with people based on healthy relating, making connections that do not place them in one-down positions (which require manipulation by the person with the upper hand) and being able to make and do and say their own requests without fear of reprisal. When a relationship is based upon getting someone into therapy besides yourself, defense mechanisms kick in. I think the answer has already been given to you, you just need to let it sink in.

[Emelie Emelie]

I don't think caring about her and extending a kindness to her is terribly dangerous.  If you've thought through what your expectations of this contact will be and are willing to accept they might be different than you want.  I will tell you this... . during our last break up my X was turning 50 and I knew he'd be alone.  So I called to invite him out for a drink.  Thought I was at the point where I could do that without getting emotionally sucked back in, hurt etc.  (He dumped me that time too.)  Wrong.  It was the real beginning of round two. 

[Narellan]

I think it will bring you undone. You have been away for a year and have no doubt done the hard yards some of us are still battling through. Time makes you forget the bad times and romanticise the good. Can you remember the pain you were in a year ago? I think our brain blocks a lot of this trauma. I really think she will see it as you reaching out to her. Which you are. And it will go one of two ways. 1.  She will begin to contact you again and the same issues you used to have will become part of your life again. 2. She will reject your contact and how will you feel about that? Rejected and hurt?

Either way she's not going to react and say thanks for remembering and then leave you be. But I'm not sure if you want that because you mention reconciation late in your post.

It's so hard to move on, but I'd give anything to be a year out and not be having my life impacted by my ex anymore. Good luck. Look long and hard at your motives before you decide.

[BacknthSaddle]

I feel sorry for her and if she got therapy I'd probably reconcile but without that I see her case as hopeless.

Translation: I feel sorry for her and if I got therapy I'd probably reconcile the fact that I choose partners that I perceive to be in a one-down position so that I can feel better about myself. Knowing that they are one-down means that <<I think>> they need me to function in life and while that gives me a sense of self-esteem, it doesn't last. It also triggers my partner's mistrust, because what I'm really doing is siphoning off their power so they are dependent upon me and that's no way for my ex or me to live.

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know what I'm doing here... . I don't trust her for a minute but I genuinely wish her well.

I think you have a year out and you've never learned to let go. Some of the reasons you've given are based on fixer mentality which really distracts you from your own problems. Your problem isn't that you want to break NC. Your problem are the reasons why. Helping = Fixing = controlling = intrusion = no boundaries = vulnerability with the end result being both people fear abandonment because this isn't love, it's need. Follow the need and you will discover yourself. Have you written on the inventory board at all? You might discover your reasons  for being drawn to this woman.

People who get involved with hermits do so for a reason. The hermit also has a reason for being a hermit that existed well before you came into the picture. What a hermit needs is a way to connect with people based on healthy relating, making connections that do not place them in one-down positions (which require manipulation by the person with the upper hand) and being able to make and do and say their own requests without fear of reprisal. When a relationship is based upon getting someone into therapy besides yourself, defense mechanisms kick in. I think the answer has already been given to you, you just need to let it sink in.

This is right on the money.  I think these failed relationships have led a lot of us here on these boards to realize, through introspection, that we have a tendency to be attracted not to true "peers" but rather to people that we think we can "fix" or "repair" in some way. This is not necessarily conscious but is definitely betrayed through our actions, and trying to push someone into therapy over their objections, while most certainly well-intentioned, I think is probably an example of such an action. 

I agree with Narellan: before doing this, think through the possible outcomes, and if none of them sounds appealing, don't go through with it.  In my view, there are two:

1) She responds, you realize that she is still "broken" in some way, and you reconnect, either leading to a recycle which ends unfortunately or ending in an argument in which you are devalued due to resentment (as 2010 suggests) or in any case something that is ultimately bad.

2) She doesn't respond, in which case you start thinking about why not and feeling bad. Your mind may end up deciding that she has found someone else and that that someone else has "fixed" her and that she doesn't need you, and then you will feel like crap.  This view would almost certainly be wrong, but whether this is right or wrong is irrelevant.  The bottom line is you wouldn't feel good in the aftermath.

It's hard to think of an outcome where you end up feeling good. I agree with Narellan that it will not be as simple as "Thanks for remembering" and then she leaves you be, and even if it were I suspect that might lead you to ruminate a bit.  The outcome where you reconnect, she goes to therapy, she gets "all better" and then you two form a durable & safe bond is not a real outcome. 

The bottom line is: examine your motivations, and examine the potential outcomes.  Very, very few things we do with our exes are as simple as "extending a kindness."  Our decisions to break NC are always based on some imagined response, and this rarely leads to anything good. 

[BorisAcusio]

I have to agree with the posters above. After a year, you exactly know the unhealthy dynamics, the need based love mimicry, their impaired empathy, the pathological lying, push & pull, Triangulation, raging, devaluation. She is the same person and completely uncapable of maintaining a reciprocal adult relationship.

They don't get better with time.

Why would you even consider to reconcile?

[BacknthSaddle]

the need based love mimicry

I love this term.  The truth is that, for some of us (and definitely for our partners with BPD), it may be the only type of "love" we've known.  We don't know that there's something better to seek out, or, if we do find that thing, we are suspicious of it and reject it.

In any case, yes: if this r/w was painful enough to land you on this board, then it is very unlikely that there can be "innocent communication" of any kind. 

[Aussie0zborn]

the need based love mimicry

I love this term. 

So do I. I had to read it a second time to capture its meaning.

LongGoneEx, I think you would do well to stay away and be a Longer Gone Ex - the longer the better. More importantly, why would you entertain such a move? I fear it will only take you back to where you were a year ago and without knowing your story I'm sure it wasn't pleasant.

[bpdspell]

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know what I'm doing here... . I don't trust her for a minute but I genuinely wish her well.

Long Gone Ex,

Not to gang up on you but I totally agree with 2010. It may bite to read but even though you're a year out it doesn't sound like your fully emotionally detached which is OK.  You're human. Just don't fool yourself into believing that contacting her doesn't come with some kind of hidden motivation on your part. What's good is that you decided to post here first for feedback.

Waif or not; she's still mentally ill and cannot be fixed or repaired by your good intentions. She also lacks the ability to reciprocate what you are so willing to do for her due to her compromised emotional capacity. In spite of the facts about BPD and in spite of our personal history's with our ex's detaching is the toughest challenge because it requires US to change, evolve and grow.

There are times when I feel compassion for my ex. He's untreated and will never know the stability of inner peace or the fulness of being in love with himself. He will continue to emotionally suffer in a very painful existence that leaves him broken. It hurts my heart to accept that only HE has the power to make that amends with himself. Have I at times thought about a ":)ear John" letter or a lovely anonymous card? Of course I have. But then I shake myself and get real about my motivations.

Of course there were days when I wish I could find the potion, the pill, or the medication that could set his mind right but deep down when I'm honest... . fixing him was more about me ( my need to control the feelings of being abandoned and my need to be validated by a person who lacked the capacity to) than him.

Is this the case with you?

Spell

[BorisAcusio]

the need based love mimicry

I love this term.  The truth is that, for some of us (and definitely for our partners with BPD), it may be the only type of "love" we've known.  We don't know that there's something better to seek out, or, if we do find that thing, we are suspicious of it and reject it.

In any case, yes: if this r/w was painful enough to land you on this board, then it is very unlikely that there can be "innocent communication" of any kind.  

I don't want to hijack the thread but there is a great post in this topic from the respectable member MaybeSo:

I have studied this a lot, and will look at the workshop by Oceanheart to see what she has to say also.

My  take on this for quite a while has been the following:

First off, the folks we speak of on here may have a variety of different things going on, it's possible there is more going on for you ex than just BPD.  

In a addition, despite patterns that are specific to BPD, splitting etc., people with BPD are also "different" in that not all people with BPD are 'cookie cutter' people.  There are variations, of course, as in any 'group'.

Having said that... . I do not view the love my ex w/BPD etc.,  had for me, or others, as "NOT REAL LOVE".  I view it as child-like, immature need-based love that for him, at his current level, is still love.  Immature, non-sustaining, etc, but still love.

I have raised a child, I have gone through the various 'child' developmental stages with a child, and I have studied this academically, too.  What I see my ex experiencing is very immature young, very needs-based, love.  Very needs-based, not mature, not adult, very narcissistic, (also a stage in child development)... . but still it is LOVE.  

I do not view his way of loving as NOT REAL love anymore than I viewed my daughter's various stages from childhood to adulthood and her ways of loving as she moved through those stages as NOT REAL.  They are REAL.  

However, when an adult is stuck emotionally in a stage that is no longer age appropriate, it is of course, going to cause problems in his life, and the lives of other adults who are expecting that he will love in an adult way.  It may be real... . the issue is not is it real, the issue is does it work?  And in an adult to adult relationship, it is not going to work... . when one person is operating from about 3-4 years of age in their conception of love, gets together w/ a person who has the expectations of adult love, that is of course not going to work.

As an adult, love comes down to choices, respsonsibility, committment and deep bonding that goes beyond just how we 'feel' in any given moment, and it of course goes well beyond just what our own immediate emotional( or other) needs are in any given moment.  But, we all had to move successfully through each developmental stage, to reach that ability to engage in adult love. It could be argued that many of us, as co-dependents, are also stuck to a degree in a developmental stage that left us too focused on other and not well skilled in balancing self care with the needs of others... . but that's another post... .

As a child, love is experienced differently, it is not altruistic, or other based, indeed, children do not at certain stages see you as a complete and whole person w/ needs of your own... . and neither does a person w/BPD, either.  A child's love is very needs-based, very me-based, it is not 'other based'... . as it should be at a young age.  But, that kind of need-based love is not appropriate as an adult.

However... . as I said, I do not place the love my child experienced when young, or my ex's limited capacity to love... . in the category of not being REAL... . for me, that is not an accurate conceptualization ... . and it is also, to me, unnecessarily and inaccurately discounts and diminishes that there was LOVE there to say it was not REAL.  It was not healthy in the sense that it was not adult/adult, and it was not age appropriate, but it was REAL.  That is just my own personal take on this issue, for what it is worth.  

[Lion Fire]

I hear you, I have the same urge today. My ex's father is on life support and it's just a matter of time.

I thought of reaching out to her but I have restrained myself a few times today. Fact is, we only broke up 3 weeks ago, 2 days NC and I don't see what support I can be if I am (according to her) the main trigger and cause of the distress and pain in her life. The best thing I can do is say a prayer for them all and distance myself. I know there will only be a guilt trip at best or most likely a blame sessions about how I never had/have her back. No win.

If you are truly over her and felt safe, I believe the question wouldn't come up for you.

[LongGoneEx]

"I don't trust her for a minute".[/b]

I agree.  Without trust a relationship of any sort is meaningless and I don't realistically foresee one happening. She had therapy before for a life-threatening eating disorder and other BPD stuff. It didn't prevent her from losing her professorship over her behaviors.

[LongGoneEx]

If you are truly over her then I would say go for it. That said, if you were completely over her you probably wouldn't have a desire to reconnect in any way with someone who treated you so poorly.

I realize this too. My thoughts revolve around what it really means to be "completely over her". Is it complete indifference? Benign neglect? Fear of ever going near a toxic waste dump?

I probably always will care about her. I hope that she lives a long and healthy life. I hope that she doesn't eventually give in to her suicidal thoughts when she goes off her meds again. I hope that she doesn't lapse into another life-threatening eating disorder when she destroys another career via her mental illnesses. Do I see it as my role to fix the next instance of these past problems in her life? No. Which is why I gave her the choice a year ago to fix them herself, or I was out.

[LongGoneEx]

I feel sorry for her and if she got therapy I'd probably reconcile but without that I see her case as hopeless.

Translation: I feel sorry for her and if I got therapy I'd probably reconcile the fact that I choose partners that I perceive to be in a one-down position so that I can feel better about myself. Knowing that they are one-down means that <<I think>> they need me to function in life and while that gives me a sense of self-esteem, it doesn't last. It also triggers my partner's mistrust, because what I'm really doing is siphoning off their power so they are dependent upon me and that's no way for my ex or me to live.

A year ago I followed a qualified counselor's advice in offering a choice to a mentally ill person. A choice between the relationship she claimed she wanted and her addictions. I was no longer prepared to accept both in my life. Then or now. Read these facts in whatever fact-free way best supports your theory, but it seems to me that it's you who are trying to "one-down position me" and fix me by telling me my thoughts and then instantly diagnosing me .

[feetwetfirst]

Something that I might have missed so I apologize if this is a repeat

To a person with a mental illness... . your gesture out of thoughtfulness will only be read as you reaching out to reconnect.

If it is important for you to wish her a Happy Birthday for your well being... . buy the card... . write the words you want to say... . place the card in the envelope and write her name... . and then put the card in a drawer, in a box, or just throw it away... . the card has served it's purpose... . it allowed you to say the things you are thinking and hopefully the feeling of guilt will lessen in the process to guide you forward to a healthier you

[coolioqq]

At the risk of sounding prickish (and trust me, I am far from that), I believe that the answer to your current dilemma is very well described here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=58943;sa=showPosts;start=20. Be sure to start with the first message :-).

Try not to give in to the urge. Even if she could somehow change, you really gave her enough chances, don't you think?

[LongGoneEx]

LongGoneEx, I think you would do well to stay away and be a Longer Gone Ex - the longer the better. More importantly, why would you entertain such a move? I fear it will only take you back to where you were a year ago and without knowing your story I'm sure it wasn't pleasant.

Aussie, I'm certainly not hell-bent on doing this. To use an analogy, I'm like an alcoholic who wants to go to a bar and see if he can sit there for awhile and be strong enough to resist taking a drink. Regardless of what the bartender may say, one way or the other. I do understand those who say I'd effectively be taking the drink by sending the card, as well as those who say we are all alcoholics here.

[willy45]

Read my posts. Almost two years out. Feeling pretty good then Way back in the sh#t. You will likely not find what your mind has invented. You will find the same person that landed you here... . Trust me... . I know it's hard but read my posts. It's a cautionary tale... .

[BacknthSaddle]

I think we're all saying we're all alcoholics who've relapsed, and based in our experience we advise against going to the bar.

[Cardinals in Flight]

If that's true? I been sittin at the bar allll day with an empty shot glass, I finally just got up and left.  Pffffft, so not worth it! 

CiF

[LongGoneEx]

Try not to give in to the urge. Even if she could somehow change, you really gave her enough chances, don't you think?

coolioqq, I certainly appreciate the irony. As I mentioned to someone here privately, it was the writing of that post which brought this up.  Rest assured, I don't plan to get into any relationship with her (in fact I'm casually dating others) and I've made no final decision to send the card, although I did buy it.

For me the issue boils down to this: what does detaching mean to me personally, in this situation? What does it look like? Is it living the rest of my life in fear of her (illusory?/real?) power over me? Is the only safe action to assume that she's more of a dangerous toxic waste dump than a human being? Should greeting cards be treated like loaded handguns? Do I have no control over my "fixer" tendencies? Am I not a rational being with free will?

[LongGoneEx]

Of course there were days when I wish I could find the potion, the pill, or the medication that could set his mind right but deep down when I'm honest... . fixing him was more about me ( my need to control the feelings of being abandoned and my need to be validated by a person who lacked the capacity to) than him.

Is this the case with you?

Spell

Yes, while I was with her I had thoughts like this and in my case it was trying to find the ultimate JADE.  In hindsight she supplied me with plenty of things to fix and that included fixtures in her apartment. It's kind of amusing in hindsight. I do now realize she's toxic in a r/s and anyone who gets close to her is basically a voluntary or involuntary stuffed animal used for self-soothing by a selfish child.

[LettingGo14]

For me the issue boils down to this: what does detaching mean to me personally, in this situation? What does it look like? Is it living the rest of my life in fear of her (illusory?/real?) power over me? Is the only safe action to assume that she's more of a dangerous toxic waste dump than a human being? Should greeting cards be treated like loaded handguns? Do I have no control over my "fixer" tendencies? Am I not a rational being with free will?

I appreciate the struggle you are going through.   And I value the opportunity to look at myself through the prism of the questions you raise.   I am not writing to challenge you, only to try to process some of the questions you raise, as they relate to my circumstances -- if only to give you another perspective.

I am working on seeing the world "as it is" versus how I "want it to be."   I am trying to start with the basic fact that I am not with my ex-girlfriend  [I was split black, I can't change it, and the relationship was pure drama, for many reasons].    When my "rational mind" is in control, I can accept no contact and no hope for the future.

But, my rational mind is not always in control.   If I'm hungry, angry, lonely, tired (HALT), for example, my emotions can short-circuit my rational mind.  I start to crave a "fix" of my ex-girlfriend.  I start to wonder "what if... . "  I start an incessant chatter in my mind about what I did wrong, or what she did wrong, or if I was replaced, or how it could be fixed.   (I become quite adept at "rationalizing" away No Contact).

A pure "rational" mind would tell us that no one, and I mean no one, has "power" over us -- either real or imagined.  We grant any and all "power" over us to others.   Obviously, our emotions tell us differently.   

There are plenty of relationships in my past that I can view without emotional charge.  My BPD relationship is very different.  It is highly charged.   It raises every emotion in me: love, fear, anger, grief.   I am trying to allow those emotions, to ask questions of them, and to let go completely of my ex.    Not for her sake, but for my own.

The bottom line, I think, is that we do have control -- but only over ourselves.    I think that detachment does lead to freedom, and the steps to the right are a way to follow. 

Does that make sense? 

[Sunny Side]

LGEX, there is a tremendous amount of insight in your past posts and based on them I have confidence that you'll make the right decision for yourself regardless of how you resolve this latest trial.

Regarding detachment, when my last r/s before my BPD r/s ended, I went through a 3-year period where I went deep 'in the woodshed', did not date and generally let the grieving of that lost relationship take its full course.  It was tough, we were great friends, were very close but it wasn't meant to be.  I still think of her now and how she's doing but it's from the perspective of someone who has truly set her free to live her life independent of me.

I'm just more than a month removed from my 14-month BPD r/s and in NC to protect myself.  The r/s was very intense, we spoke daily during the entire r/s, traveled and spent weekends together, sometimes alone and sometimes with her kids.  We shared many secrets and intimacies, shared our bodies, our desires and our wounded and abandoned inner childs.  I was deeply devoted to her, more than any woman I've been devoted to in my life.   My detachment from her is still ongoing.   I still suffer pain, emptiness and loss.  But with all this I am confident I won't undertake another '3 year vow' before I'm able to lovingly set her free.  In fact I think it will happen in less than half the time.  Why?  Part radical acceptance that she is disordered, but equally my accepting that the r/s and my beliefs about an all-consuming love were deeply flawed and in reality, not sustainable.   The end of the r/s was a fitting end to a very turbulent fantasy.

I think you're very aware of your truth and are rightly asking yourself if you're ready for the next trial.  Find out, take the test and I bet you'll shock yourself at how much you already know and that at this stage there are no wrong answers.   Perhaps take the pressure off yourself to accept that detachment is an evolution and not an event.  It's what I remind myself every day.