Back from vacation - glad to be home.

[maxsterling]

I'm back from a week long camping vacation with my BPDgf.  I tried to train my mind to just appreciate the natural beauty and detach from what ever was in her head.  I prayed, kept saying positive phrases over and over, reduced my expectations, and tried to be grateful to just be where I was.

But I faced about two dysregulations per day.  And somehow being on the road in a car or just away from home it felt much worse, and much harder to deal with.  No chance to get away.  The dysregulations: 

1)  It was too cold, and somehow I was responsible for that.

2)  Money.

3)  It was too hot, and somehow I was responsible for that.

4)  Driving 20 minutes to a town to get supplies was too far, and I didn't tell her beforehand exactly how far it would be.

5)  A young group of people camped next to us.

6)  Issues with her self image

7)  going hiking or any kind of exercise.  If it was strenuous at all (just a flight of stairs) it was somehow me testing her or punishing her or making fun of her.

8)  Windy or steep roads.  My fault for taking her on them or not warning her in advance.  There were a few serious anxiety attacks over this issue.

9)  that she is a horrible abusive person who hates herself and that I deserve better and I am in denial and she should break up with me to spare my life.

But after all that, the last two das she had calmed, and the drive home she was telling me she had a good time, and felt remorseful and ashamed of her behavior.  That until the last half hour, she saw a billboard for the lottery, and asked "I wished we could win the lottery... . would you marry me then if we won the lottery?"  I said that money is part of the issue, but only a small part, and what I really need is to feel stable and that money is only a small part of that.  This brought out the same old dysregulation, on the freeway, in the car, in traffic.'

She mostly calmed by the time we got home, but after dinner brought out the same self loathing dysregulation that culminated sunday morning.  Sunday morning she sat on the couch, started punching herself, thrashing about, kicking, screaming, saying she hates herself, how she is worthless, has no reason to live... .

And then she asked me to kill her.  Several times.  At one point she said, "you should get a tarp... . "  but she stopped herself after that.  And I was quite scared.  Terrified.  Traumatized.  I took her to get her out of the house to go shopping, and once in the car she started about marriage again, how I need to propose to her by September or she is leaving, how she doesn't understand what I mean by "stability" and how it is this "mystical thing" that is "all about me".  Good grief.  I reminded her that less than an hour she was asking me to kill her, and that my mind is racing about that image, and can't carry a conversation on about marriage.  To that she said, "oh, so you won't marry me because I am crazy!" 

I think you can figure out the rest of the conversation (went nowhere, I tried to simply be quiet).

By the end of the say things had improved, and she wanted sex, but of course I was in no mood for that.  And she said that we don't have sex enough, and then figured out that it was her depression that was preventing us from being more intimate.

This morning she asked when we had therapy again, and I replied tomorrow evening.  She asked, "you aren't going to make me feel ashamed of all the times I freaked out, right?"

I just don't know what to do here.  I feel shaken, traumatized, and think the dysregulations over the past week are quite serious and go well beyond the help of the standard communication tools.  Is this one of those issues where I need to try and push her into some kind of hospitalization?

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[lemon flower]

hi MS,

I'm sorry to hear your holiday wasn't very succesful, unfortunately travelling with pwBPd often seems to go that way, I could tell you similar stories.

I can't tell if the dysregulation that your gf went through when you were back home was a result of the stress of travelling but it could very well be some kind of after-shock because she probably realised that she put a lot of tension to the holiday and maybe the guilt made her say those things about killing her, I don't think she was serious about it, maybe it was her way to take the blame but in the mean time I suppose she wanted to hear you comfort her.

A little bit like the acting of a child who feels guilty for sth it did wrong and therefore pretends it is ill so that it gets compassion instead of punishment...

In the case of a pwBPD  this could play unconsciously I think.

[tired-of-it-all]

Max,

So sorry to hear about your trip.  Man that brings back some bad, bad memories.  I always wanted to go to Europe but was so afraid that my BPDWife would freak out on me in a foreign country.  It has been a long and slow process but I eventually learned to set boundaries with her.  Some of this boundary setting was an ax fight.  Many hours of screaming matches.  Probably not the best way to handle the situation.  

About 3 years ago I sat her down and told her that I was going to start doing some things for me.  I told her I wanted to travel and I wasn't taking her along.  I started doing a long trip every spring or summer.  I also started some short weekend trips.  It did me a world of good.  She played a lot of games while I was gone trying to ruin my trips for me.  For the most part it didn't work.

I eventually moved out and took my special needs son with me.  We stayed out of the house for 10 months.  That really got her attention.  I moved back because I missed my other kids and was tired of paying rent and for other reasons I cannot explain.  Nevertheless, it stopped many of her games.

She is still sick.  Her problems are right under the surface all the time.  I find what works best for me is to fight the disorder with the truth.  Some specifics examples that I recall are:

   She was in the car with me and we were headed to church.  I could tell she was planning an episode in the church.  I said, "You freak out on me in church and you and I are done!  :)o you understand me?"  I stopped the car in the road and said it again, ":)o you understand me?  Say it!  Say 'I understand you'."  I made her say it.  I meant it also.  I meant that I was done if she crossed that line.

  She was becoming violent and was about to strike me.  I said, "Hit me again and you go to jail.  I dare you!  Try me on this.  I dare you!"  It stopped the violence.  I meant that I was calling the cops.  It was not an idle threat.

  I was never able to set boundaries nicely.  I always had to scream to he heard.  I know that is childish.  I am sure a more mature person would have found a more effective way to communicate.

[Narellan]

Hi Maxsterling,

I really enjoy reading your posts, your style of writing tells the story well. I was quite enjoying this post until i read  "And then she asked me to kill her". It stopped me in my tracks. I can only imagine how you felt hearing that. My heart nearly broke for this poor girl. It sounded like such a desperate cry for help. It sounded honest.

Then she flips the switch and tries to counteract it by talking/thinking about nice things... . Marriage.

You say this has never happened before. Shes worried youre going to bring this up with the T. I personally think you should. Just this one thing. The tantrumming behaviours and whinging are all smokescreens, but this statement is huge and needs to be raised with the T. You need to be able to vent your feelings from hearing this, as well as talking through why she feels this way.

My exBPD on a few occasions mentioned killing me. It was in a humorous sense, so i just got tiny red flags, but now im out of the relationship those things play on my mind and im definately more wary of him.

[Olinda]

Couldn't read and not post a hug. 

That was exhausting and scary to read. I can't imagine going through it.  I feel that informing a therapist about her request to be killed is extremely relevant.  And you looking help for the impact and stress of hearing that, very important.

Of course it makes sense that you are not interested in talking marriage or making love at this point.  I don't blame you and would feel the same. 

Best wishes to you and hope you are able to receive real live help/support from therapist. Hang in there.

[maxsterling]

Thanks, everyone.  This just feels like it is deteriorating fast.  Our T is very good, so I am hopeful that tonight will bring renewed hope and understanding at least for a little while.  Her AA sponsor again yesterday urged her to go to the hospital.  While I think it may be coming to that point, I think it is important for her long term health to make that decision for herself, and pressure or urging from me will not be constructive.  I've told her in the past I trust her to make that decision when she needs to. 

I, too, feel bad for her.  This morning, she described herself as "not functioning" citing that she could not even take a vacation.  Her self image is zero right now.  She sees almost zero hope or zero good in life.  So sad.  And bad stuff just keeps piling on.  Her former employer from last year sent her a letter saying she owes them several thousands of dollars.  This after 7 months of no correspondence from them, and the previous correspondence saying that she has no further obligation to them.  Knowing her emotional state, I told her I would draft a stern response letter and handle it, and I just need her to sign.  She also had a job interview Monday, and as it turns out, they had already hired someone else and never called her to cancel the interview.  That's extremely aggravating for a non-BPD, but as you can imagine is like a bullet to the heart for a pwBPD.

She is REALLY down again today, and I've suggested again that she come meet me for lunch.  I don't know what else to do.  She's supposed to meet a friend at 2pm, then after that we have T appointment. 

[sweetheart]

This is a really sad post to read. It must be desperately sad for you Maxsterling and so to for your gf. Like Narellan posted the instruction from your gf to "kill her" sounds real. What I have read before in your posts, whilst I know this forum is about you and how you feel, is the amount of despair that is conveyed in your gf dysregulations and outpourings.

My dBPDh went through a really terrible period last year where he asked me many times to kill him, and then took himself away and overdosed. Luckily he was found by the police and hospitalised, but he still is a very ill man. Your gf sounds very unwell, which for you must be heartbreaking so early in your relationship.

So yes definitely tell your T, at least then the burden of any responsibility about her mental state will not just be with you. Ask the T directly what she thinks could be done to help, get her to be specific about what could be done to help other than therapy. This is too big an issue for you to hold, getting help and support with this level of dysregulation is crucial for your well-being. If she has a P tell them as well so that they can decide about admission, hospitalisation and whatever else maybe appropriate. Give the responsibility of this over to a professional, this is too much for you to emotionally caretake on your own.

[sweetheart]

Just read your most recent post Maxsterling. It sounds as though your gf knows she is unwell, but that does not mean she will be able to make the right decision for herself. It may be that she has had herself admitted voluntarily in the past, if so hopefully this may inform her choices now.

It might be validating for her distress at the moment if you know that in the past she has chosen hospital as a way of coping with her emotional distress and you could use this information to help her move toward admission and further acceptance that she needs more help. Tricky I know. In the end with my dBPDh it got to the point where it felt harmful not to address hospitalisation with him. It felt collusive and wrong for me to not see his distress needed more and to say this to him.

I hope your T can hold some of your emotional distress for you at the moment as  you have a lot going on.

[maxsterling]

Thanks everyone.  She's doing particularly bad today.  She sent me a text message this morning telling me how worthless she feels and how she should just look for a place to move out ASAP, such as a group home for disabled people. How life is worthless and she wasn't to give up on everything.  How she no longer wants to have kids because she doesn't want her child to experience the hell she has.  The sad thing is, as I have written on this website, I fear that is her ultimate fate.  But to hear her say it given her current state of mind was extremely distressing.  Had she been in a calmer state, and decided that she needs to move out or end the r/s in order to fix herself, I would be sad, but in agreement.  I know my life would be easier in the long run if she was elsewhere.  But in this self loathing state - I'm just scared for her.

She probably needs to be hospitalized.  But I know it means nothing in the long run unless she accepts that and makes that decision for herself.  For her long term healing, I think she simply needs intensive, long-term, outpatient therapy (DBT).  Hospitalization will only protect her from hurting herself and pump her full of meds that don't really do much.

I invited her to meet me for lunch today, and I could tell again she was very, very down.  What's the term - dissociated?  Mostly expressionless.  Before we parted, she started on the hopeless talk again, and I did my best to turn that around. 

We meet with our couples T in an hour and a half.  That gives me some hope.  Today I feel really bad for this woman.  Not helpful to me or the r/s to feel bad for her, but it's hard not to.  It still feels like some kind of turnaround is just around the corner - if she could just have one thing for her to feel good about maybe she could build on that. 

[Narellan]

Maxsterling  :'(

She said she feels she needs to move out and into a home for disabled people. That is a cry for help. She recognises she needs help. Perhaps you can offer the suggestion to help her look into getting help/ hospitalisation. She will be unable to do this herself. If I was in your shoes I'd support that suggestion she's made. You can't really sit back and wait for her to initiate hospitalisation. She's very very ill and may think the only way out is to take her life.

You know her better than anyone and you love her. She trusts you and probably is depending on you to step in and help her.

I hope the therapy session goes well. I think if she's in this state of despair a third person is going to need to take action. Big hugs to you. You are her rock . 

[tired-of-it-all]

Let me start by admitting that I can't take my own advice.  With that said, you feeling bad for her doesn't help her at all.  She needs trained medical help.  You cannot do that for her.  If you "protect" her from facing the fact that she needs help, you are only delaying her treatment and crippling her more.  Mental health professionals know how to deal with this.  Be glad that she is admitting that she needs the help. 

When you described her punching herself and thrashing about, it so reminded me of my wife several years ago.  That is such a scary thing to witness. People that behave this way need to be hospitalized.  Because I tolerated this kind of behavior, my wife got worse and worse.  I finally reached the point where I would threaten to call the police.  I meant it and she got the message.  I should have tried to put her somewhere so that she would have to take treatment.  Now she has learned to act nicer but still play her subtle game. 

[Haye]

I feel so sorry for you Maxsterling . I don't really have much advice, nothing that someone woudln't have mentioned already. Hospitalization might be right for a while, even thought they are not likely to help her much (other than medicating).

So i can only state i feel you. My SO has sometimes, when he's been really down just asked why i don't let him to kill himself, that don't i understand how bad he feels and how forcing him to continue is extremely cruel.

[maxsterling]

I think we have a good T who recognizes that my GFs issues need to be tackled before we can really work on r/s issues.  This despite my gf's insistence that they are tied together.  I think the T certainly recognizes the BPD because of the way she communicates with my GF.  Hearing the T communicate with my GF using validation is an excellent example fro me to follow.  SO in that sense, sitting in the room and listening while the T works with her is very helpful to me. 

Yesterday's session highlights:

1)  GF was very open about her recent struggles with everything.  So I didn't have to elaborate on how worried I was or bring up how serious things were.

2)  GF blamed herself for ruining the vacation (I didn't consider it ruined at all).

3)  GF mentioned to T that others had mentioned she go to the hospital.  T did not suggest either way, but did point out that it would be the quickest way to see a doctor and get her meds straightened out.  T brought up several times that she thought GFs meds weren't right.   

4)  GF got on her September marriage ultimatum thing, basically the same thing I have heard several times the past few days.   T challenged her on this, asking if that was really what was going on - in other words, were there other things preventing marriage.  GF nearly lost it with T, saying, "are you trying to say because I am unstable?"  T quickly backtracked, saying "No, I'm just asking you, I have no ideas on this."  GF revealed that her history is that she is tired of just being a GF, and that previous men have all called her "crazy" as the reason they don't want to commit.

5)  GF said I need to accept her for who she is, she has been depressed since she was 15, and doesn't want to be this way, and feels she is at the end of her rope, and is even depressed because she has been depressed so long.  Basically vocalizing her hopeless/potentially suicidal thoughts to T.

6)  GF also revealed how she feels like smashing and breaking things, punching herself, hates everyone, etc.  T was obviously concerned, but did not explicitly direct her towards hospitalization. 

7)  T helped GF with things she can do the next few days to keep her schedule busy and constructive. 

8)  GF revealed she gets angry because I am so happy all the time and well-adjusted. 

By the end, GF was feeling more hopeful, and afterwards was mostly happy.  That's typical - she seems to get it out of her system and has a few good hours or days.  Hopefully that carries forward.

As for me - gee.  I feel relief that she calmed, but as I think about it I recognize nothing got solved, and nothing will change in the long run.  But a few days relief would be helpful.  But I do wonder if her recent downturn happened because she stopped taking her antidepressant.  I've been told one really doesn't know how well it was working until they stop.

T did schedule another appointment for next week.  We had been going every other week, but I think meeting weekly is probably a good idea.

[maxsterling]

A couple more things from yesterday -

GF mentioned in therapy how she really has felt extremely depressed and lost the past few years, and that she felt that way when she met me and really had no business dating.  True for sure.  But this is just the heartbreak of the BPD - They feel alone, know they are a burden to others, yet need someone else to keep them from being alone.  Sad, sad cycle. 

It makes me think about the life cycle of a pwBPD.  There's probably the early teenager stage where they know they feel intense, yet manage through addictions, risky behavior, etc.  But then they get to a stage where those kind of behaviors don't settle their emotions anymore, then start to feel more empty, and can no longer use their looks or youth to manipulate anymore.  It's just a sad, sad disorder.

[lemon flower]

why did she stop taking the anti-depressant ? was she advised on this by her doctor ? it could very well be one of the reasons of her current down-cycling, and probably triggered by the stress of the holiday trip!

my BP did something similar last week; he stopped taking his seroquel (because he thinks it makes him fat) after he was on it for 8 months in a row, and it definitely works negative on him: he sleeps badly and he is much more depressed and confused lately, he had a major break down only 3 days ago and still feels very low.

I hope she will agree to consult a doctor and review on taking her meds and maybe more intensive treatment... .

[maxsterling]

She claimed the Wellbutrin was giving her bad headaches, blaming it also for racing thoughts and possible constipation.  So, she went to the doctor, he gave her Prozac, but told her to keep with the Wellbutrin for now.  A few hours later, she told me the doctor is a quack, that none of it works, and that she doesn't want to take the Prozac because of sexual side effects, and was going to just stop the Wellbutrin.  She had the same issues with Seroquel and weight gain 6-months ago, and they put her on Latuda. 

I really am coming to believe her near constant dysregulation over the past few weeks has to do with her stopping the Wellbutrin. 

[Narellan]

Maxsterling I'm glad to hear the progress shes making. You sound a bit down and think it got nothing solved, but on the contrary. She opened up and showed a lot of herself to the T. That's progress. And the antidepressant stuff will take a while to sort through. My exh ( not BPD guy) had bipolare, but was mostly just depressed. He cried neatly every day for about 20 years. He tried seroquel but it made his vision blurred and gave him an out of body feeling all the time. Prozac sent him manic and in 24 hrs he had bought a house and a car and a $ hit load of other things behind my back. ( had to go through with buying the house which was a big financial struggle, we put tenants in it) but I managed to return the car.( we already had 2) then he found lamictal which is a mood stabiliser, use to treat epilepsy mainly. This has worked to a degree, I was able to live with him for another 5 years. Regulating the medication can take many years to sort out.

By going off any of these drugs cold turkey you will get extreme reactions, as you are seeing now. I wish the T had addressed it more yesterday. Hospitalisation is the best way. My T was trying to hospitalise my exh when he was manic , but we couldn't find him. He was AWOL on a spending spree. But as soon as she gave him 2 tablets he improved.

Addressing the BPD is probably a secondary concern for the T ATM. She need to stabilise the mood and medication. Big hug to you maxsterling. You are truly amazing 

[SweetCharlotte]

[... . ] once in the car she started about marriage again, how I need to propose to her by September or she is leaving... .

That would be a very healthy decision on her part and I hope that she is able to go through with it. My heart aches for her; if you are leaning toward hospitalizing her and not admitting her back into your home to live afterwards, I would support that as well. This suffering does neither of you any good. What a "vacation." Of course, taking a pwBPD camping is not my idea of a vacation. My H would definitely wind up in a hospital as a result.