How to deal with public bullying of family members

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Wish me luck... . going to try to pull off a camping trip with family.

Yesterday was "tense" getting ready.  Telling teenage kids to "get your ass up off the floor" and start helping.

Untrained (in BPD) kids JADEing about why they were on the floor (taking care of baby).  In other words they were in the right... . uBPDw was bullying.

This is going to have to be my next boundary that I enforce. 

Is it a boundary or a rule?  Because it is not for me and my behavior?  I hate to think I i will train my kids to ignore or not follow their mom's rules... . but... . this can't continue.

Don't have a lot of time to write.  My plan is to leave the campsite rather than participate in a BPD episode.  However... . that leaves my kids in it.  Somehow very soon that will need to change.

Trying to think through how my wife getting us all into "Family" counseling could be the leverage to do this... . to start training the children on BPD.

I'll try to come back in couple days with more details... . but I think most will get picture or what I need to know.  How to help enforce boundaries for children.

[formflier]

Wish me luck... . going to try to pull off a camping trip with family.

Yesterday was "tense" getting ready.  Telling teenage kids to "get your ass up off the floor" and start helping.

Untrained (in BPD) kids JADEing about why they were on the floor (taking care of baby).  In other words they were in the right... . uBPDw was bullying.

This is going to have to be my next boundary that I enforce. 

Is it a boundary or a rule?  Because it is not for me and my behavior?  I hate to think I i will train my kids to ignore or not follow their mom's rules... . but... . this can't continue.

Don't have a lot of time to write.  My plan is to leave the campsite rather than participate in a BPD episode.  However... . that leaves my kids in it.  Somehow very soon that will need to change.

Trying to think through how my wife getting us all into "Family" counseling could be the leverage to do this... . to start training the children on BPD.

I'll try to come back in couple days with more details... . but I think most will get picture or what I need to know.  How to help enforce boundaries for children.

[Hudson]

Wish you all the very best and look forward to hearing how all went.

[an0ught]

Trying to think through how my wife getting us all into "Family" counseling could be the leverage to do this... . to start training the children on BPD.

Avoiding JADE, Validation and Boundaries make all sense even without BPD context.

[Grey Kitty]

a0 is correct--These are all wonderful life skills to use with all people, disordered, healthy, whatever. Your kids will benefit greatly in life by learning them.

You can encourage the family T to teach your kids these skills.

You could also make time with your children, preferably one at a time, without your wife there, and teach them yourself.

Is it a boundary or a rule?  Because it is not for me and my behavior?  I hate to think I i will train my kids to ignore or not follow their mom's rules... . but... . this can't continue.

Telling your wife not to bully the kids is a rule.

Telling your kids to ignore mom's rules is just a mess.

YOU, personally taking action to remove your kids from their mom's presence when she starts bullying is boundary enforcement.

I hope the camping weekend goes well!

[formflier]

OK... . so... . what happens when I try to remove kids from bullying and she says no.

If kids have been trained in family T... . it may go better.  The time or to something like this has come up before my wife kept berating them until they "sided" with her.  I had made the choice not to put kids in middle.

Basically... I'm thinking that I should not try this until kids have been trained and/or Therapist has explained this to them.

Thoughts?

a0 is correct--These are all wonderful life skills to use with all people, disordered, healthy, whatever. Your kids will benefit greatly in life by learning them.

You can encourage the family T to teach your kids these skills.

You could also make time with your children, preferably one at a time, without your wife there, and teach them yourself.

Is it a boundary or a rule?  Because it is not for me and my behavior?  I hate to think I i will train my kids to ignore or not follow their mom's rules... . but... . this can't continue.

Telling your wife not to bully the kids is a rule.

Telling your kids to ignore mom's rules is just a mess.

YOU, personally taking action to remove your kids from their mom's presence when she starts bullying is boundary enforcement.

I hope the camping weekend goes well!

[Grey Kitty]

Your original question was about the difference between enforcing a boundary and making a rule. I think I was pretty clear on that.

OK... . so... . what happens when I try to remove kids from bullying and she says no.

Well the way boundary enforcement is supposed to work, it isn't a question where she can say "yes" or "no". You simply take action, and that is that.

I guess that an action (like putting the kids in the car and driving off for a cooling off period)  requires you to tell the children to do it and them to comply. Which is complicated by your wife telling them to do something else.

Consider your goal here--you can't "make your wife stop bullying" or anything else. Your best goal is simply to separate your wife from the children as immediate damage control.

Do you have effective authority with the children? You could insist that they go to their room, IMMEDIATELY. If they would obey and your wife would not follow, bullying/berating them, it would accomplish separating your wife from your children.

Unfortunately, I'm not a parent, so I've got no practical experience in these matters at all. Perhaps other parents have better ideas.

One thing I am sure of... . this is more challenging than simply using boundaries to protect yourself from the bullying/verbal abuse/etc. Have you hit your comfort zone on dealing with her directly like this?

[tired-of-it-all]

I don't know what you should do.  I can tell you that my grown daughters hate my wife.  My grown sons do not tolerate her behavior.  Her relationship with them all is atrocious.  This seems to be one of the things that makes her more subdued.  In the old days she was more aggressive.  Now she is kind of emotionally beat down.  It is sad for everyone. 

She tries to drag me into the middle of their conflict.  I have been advised by counselors and by those of similar experiences to stay out of it.  It is between them. 

[formflier]

I have heard others say similar things.  That I should worry about my relationship with my kids and let my wife worry about hers.

However... . it just strikes me as wrong... . especially if I see it and don't attempt to intervene.  I can see that causing a BPD flareup... . or a "wanted" argument.

So far... . since I've known about BPD I haven't tried to do anything consisten about this type of behavior... primarily because I haven't figured out what to do.

I'm hoping this "family counseling" will give me an opening to stand up to it and train my kids on how to do this.

Tired of it all:  How often do you and your kids "talk about" your wife's behavior.  I'm still in the mode that it feels weird to talk about someone when they are not around.  I see the need for it... . but haven't sorted through how to handle this.

I can see it is needed (me taking a more active role in explaining her behavior... . and what they can do to help)

Do you think that on "good days" your wife knows that she screwed up the relationship... . and that is why she is subdued?

Note:  As I sit in the easy chair in the living room typing away... . I just had a "drive by" talking to... . stomped in the room... . "hey... the tent needs to be put in the bag"... and stomp out.

So... I know this seems petty (or maybe it is not)... . but I think I am going to take the stance that if she tells me to do something (instead of asking or trying to somehow be polite)... . I ain't doin' it. 

Is that a limit... . or is that some weird reaction from me that I should not be doing.

No idea how to "validate" a drive by tasking... . but last thing I want to do is encourage that behavior.

Sigh... .

Thanks for the advice... please keep more coming.  The camping was good... . uBPDw didn't have any full scale blowups... . but there was kind of a weird "simmer" going the entire time.  I did several things to try to be nice and polite to her... . and she kinda sniffed or harumphed about that.  Not a word of thanks or gratitude.  Of course all in front of kids.

I don't know what you should do.  I can tell you that my grown daughters hate my wife.  My grown sons do not tolerate her behavior.  Her relationship with them all is atrocious.  This seems to be one of the things that makes her more subdued.  In the old days she was more aggressive.  Now she is kind of emotionally beat down.  It is sad for everyone. 

She tries to drag me into the middle of their conflict.  I have been advised by counselors and by those of similar experiences to stay out of it.  It is between them. 

[formflier]

So... I was reading an old post by an0ught.

Below is what caught my eye

To avoid invalidation it is critical to be truthful about your emotions even if they are negative - they are very good in sensing it anyways and in their b/w and over sensitive thinking their imagination is often worse than the truth.


On this weekends camping trip there were several times that I was tires of dealing with her and instead of focusing on some sort of validating statement... . I just stayed quiet.  Or possibly tried to do something polite for her.

I was really hoping for a relaxing camping experience where I didn't have to be on BPD alert. 

Anyway... . trying to figure out what to do when I get the mindset that I don't care about validation... . or I'm worn out with her... but I'm still "stuck" with her for a while.  For instance ... . at the campsite.

Is there a way to be quiet or withdraw that is not totally invalidating.

I'm asking because I can think through that if I only validate her when I "feel like it"... . that't not going to be much.  I had hopes of progress... . it turned out to be a put on... . and I'm still cranky about that.

I can see where being detached from the bad stuff... . and staying detached from good stuff would be helpful in this situation.

[tired-of-it-all]

I don't let any attack go by.  I don't let any accusation, no matter how subtle pass.  I don't know that this is the right thing to do.  I only know that it keeps her at bay.  It is not much of a relationship.  

If she says, "Your daughter said so and so."  

I say, "She is your daughter too and I did not create the problem between you two.  Your relationship with her is your fault."

If she says, "I had a dream that you did so and so."

I say, "I have no control over what you dreams.  That was your dream."

If one of the kids is sick and she isn't handling it right I will say, "I am taking S14 to the doctor."  If she then says that she will do it, I insist that I am taking him.  If she pushes the issue and asks why she can't take her own son to the doctor I retort hard with, "Because you can't be trusted to make sure he gets there and gets treated.  He has suffered with this long enough."

I know this sounds horrible but it is where we are.  

[formflier]

Interesting:  Does she ever acknowledge that you are right... . ?

I don't let any attack go by.  I don't let any accusation, no matter how subtle pass.  I don't know that this is the right thing to do.  I only know that it keeps her at bay.  It is not much of a relationship.  

If she says, "Your daughter said so and so."  

I say, "She is your daughter too and I did not create the problem between you two.  Your relationship with her is your fault."

If she says, "I had a dream that you did so and so."

I say, "I have no control over what you dreams.  That was your dream."

If one of the kids is sick and she isn't handling it right I will say, "I am taking S14 to the doctor."  If she then says that she will do it, I insist that I am taking him.  If she pushes the issue and asks why she can't take her own son to the doctor I retort hard with, "Because you can't be trusted to make sure he gets there and gets treated.  He has suffered with this long enough."

I know this sounds horrible but it is where we are.  

[Grey Kitty]

A 2yo child can't defend him or herself at all, and the healthy parent should have a boundary to prevent abuse (verbal or otherwise) of this child.  An adult child should be on their own, at least in this regard--it is up to them to handle the situation, and intervening isn't going to be productive. How gradual the transition is and what age it happens at is debatable.

How do you validate a drive-by-tasking?

If I had it in me to validate, I'd aim at her feelings... . something like

"You seem overwhelmed" or

"You look frustrated"

What to do when you feel frustrated and overwhelmed, and don't care about validation?

Easy--don't try to validate. You will do a crappy job even if you try. Instead try to either disengage, or try not to do anything invalidating, like JADEing. Silence (if you weren't directly addressed) is good on your part.

And... . here's the big thing... . if you are feeling like this most of the time, it is a   cue that you probably need to do a better job enforcing boundaries to protect yourself from her bad behavior, or otherwise not taking good care of yourself.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Always put your own (emotional) oxygen mask on first before assisting others.

[KateCat]

I'm not a parent either, but I grew up (in the non-information era,  ) watching my mother struggle valiantly but without much success against the strong tide of my father's alcoholism and emotional instability. I'm always curious to see what today's "techniques" are, and if they have any greater success. Because it is difficult to be a child with an emotionally intense, childlike parent. As adolescents and adults we are at greater risk for depression, anxiety, substance abuse, anger disorders and other ills.

How are your kids faring in general? Do they share their feelings with you? Among the children is there a "golden child?" A "scapegoat child?" Does your wife exhibit any gender biases? (Does she, for instance, think that males are inherently "bad" in some way?) Have any of the children been overly "parentified," taking on, for instance, the role of emotional caretaker for their mother?

A number of senior members of this forum have offered their experiences of the above issues, and more. I have learned a lot from reading past posts of Matt, ennie, livednlearned, and Dreamgirl, to mention just a (terrific) few. In their writings you can find tips on how to validate your children's feelings and make them feel heard. I think this may be the most important thing.

If your wife doesn't get effective therapy and if you all remain in the home together, you will probably need to find ways to communicate your values privately to the kids. To assure them that troubles in the home are not their fault, and that people sometimes get upset but that is no excuse for name-calling or accusations. That all people have strong emotions from time to time, but that not all people have learned to self-soothe. And that you will share with them some techniques to learn to handle emotions. (Prayer, mindfulness, or whatever fits with your family values.)

You might also want to meet privately with your wife and see if you and she can come to a common understanding about respectful behaviors expected of and toward all family members. But I suspect, from reading a number of your prior posts, that your wife actually does suffer from a thought disorder, and she may not be able to deliver on this front. That's where the nuanced experiences of the senior parent-members become critical to review . . . .

[tired-of-it-all]

Form,

You had asked if she ever admits -


Never.  She never admits what she has done.  It is so frustrating.

[formflier]

As I suspected. 

For me... . that is one of the things about my family counseling "setup" and the almost perfect behavior that preceeded it.  She was owning behavior... . in and out of counseling.  Apologizing for things... . actually apologizing and then taking steps to make things right.

It got "flipped on"... . like a light switch when she wanted me to just agree to go to this counseling with NO discussion with her or kids.  Just schedule and go.

Once we walked in the door of the family counseling the switch "flipped off"... . and has been off for the week or so since then.

This has me thinking (probably a bad thing... . since I can over analyze)... . one of my primary complaints is that when we make "deals"... . I comply (as close to 100% as possible)... . and she almost never complys.  Even for things such as stop "text bombing" or things which you would think are easy to control.  For whatever reason she can't or won't control her behaviors... . Untill she wants something.  For whatever reason she wanted me to that appointment with no discussion.  I suspect so I would not be prepared to focus on her... . or defend my self.


So... . does this call into question if she has BPD?  Because she can control herself when she wants to ... . or it is to her advantage.  In all seriousness... . she delivered a great week. 

But... . at end of the day I'm with tired-of-it-all  ... . very frustrating.

Form,

You had asked if she ever admits -


Never.  She never admits what she has done.  It is so frustrating.

[formflier]

I'm not a parent either, but I grew up (in the non-information era,  ) watching my mother struggle valiantly but without much success against the strong tide of my father's alcoholism and emotional instability. I'm always curious to see what today's "techniques" are, and if they have any greater success. Because it is difficult to be a child with an emotionally intense, childlike parent. As adolescents and adults we are at greater risk for depression, anxiety, substance abuse, anger disorders and other ills.

How are your kids faring in general? Do they share their feelings with you? Among the children is there a "golden child?" A "scapegoat child?" Does your wife exhibit any gender biases? (Does she, for instance, think that males are inherently "bad" in some way?) Have any of the children been overly "parentified," taking on, for instance, the role of emotional caretaker for their mother?

To the outside world my kids seem to be doing well.  This fall was bad academically but has turned around.  It started to turn a bit before I heard of BPD and since that time I think I have been able to "drop the temp" in the house a good bit.  Yes... there may be a "scapegoat"... . but he has always been a bit of a knucklehead.  Again... . I have a large family.  8 (yes you read that correct).  So... . no surprise there is a variety.  The possible scapegoat seems to have problems connecting with friends at school.  Seems like we are always trying to get him interested in having "his" friends over.  Granted... . he is rarely alone or rarely bored at our house (with all the people.

Yes... . she is fairly public about "male bashing".  Her mom is worse.  I don't think she has directed male bashing at any of the kids... . but she frequently points out male wrongdoing in the news... . and female wrongdoing (well... . they must have a reason... . ).

Emotional caretaker for their mother (can you expand on that some?)  D17 (my oldest daughter) seems to be "standing up" to mom.  She was the one that was in the floor working with baby and mom was demanding she "get her ass up off the floor and get moving".  D17 "But Mommy... . I'm doing xxx with the baby"... . Mom kept at it until she was up and moving... . basically until she had compliance.  I considered intervening when I have done it before it has been ineffective and caused more conflict.  However... . I don't think I can let this "bullying" continue.

Another for instance.  We are packing up at campsite.  S13 is almost to van with an armload of sleeping bags and other goodies (doing exactly what he should have been doing).  Mommy directs him to come back to her and stand.  "But Mommy... I'm almost to the van... "  She gets sterner and he walks back over to her... . lets out a sigh.  "xxx  Just stand there for a minute"  is what she says and she is directing others to come to her.  She has announced no reason for this... . just calling everyone in. 

I can tell it will take a while.  S13 could already have made two trips to van and could continue to be producting.  I also note that she directed standing... . he sits down on a bench and Mommy kind of huffs... . but doesn't say anything. 

At this point I am conscious about being even toned and ask if S13 can deliver his load to the van because he will be back well before the others first arrive.  I use please and all of that.  She has some serious "tude" in her voice ... . doesn't directly address the question but asks me if I believe S13s load is too heavy.  I'm not allowed to answer as she continues to say that she thinks he is big and strong and can handle it.  She turns to him and says (S13s name)... . it's not too heavy is it... . ?  You can handle it right?    He says something like "whatever" and she switches back to calling and directing others to come to her.

I considered making a public spectacle of asking her to be kind and use nice words... . etc etc... .   Especially now since we are in family counseling (against my will... . I'm sure there is a bit of a chip on my shoulder over this). 

At some point I think I need to publicly stand up for my kids and let the chips fall where they may.  In my opinion... . she had the power... . she used it till she got compliance... . there was no praise... . just her deciding to "prove" to everyone that she could do it.  Or maybe she was hoping I would start a fight so she could try to twist it into her being a misunderstood victim.



A number of senior members of this forum have offered their experiences of the above issues, and more. I have learned a lot from reading past posts of Matt, ennie, livednlearned, and Dreamgirl, to mention just a (terrific) few. In their writings you can find tips on how to validate your children's feelings and make them feel heard. I think this may be the most important thing.

If your wife doesn't get effective therapy and if you all remain in the home together, you will probably need to find ways to communicate your values privately to the kids. To assure them that troubles in the home are not their fault, and that people sometimes get upset but that is no excuse for name-calling or accusations. That all people have strong emotions from time to time, but that not all people have learned to self-soothe. And that you will share with them some techniques to learn to handle emotions. (Prayer, mindfulness, or whatever fits with your family values.)

You might also want to meet privately with your wife and see if you and she can come to a common understanding about respectful behaviors expected of and toward all family members. But I suspect, from reading a number of your prior posts, that your wife actually does suffer from a thought disorder, and she may not be able to deliver on this front. That's where the nuanced experiences of the senior parent-members become critical to review . . . .

I have tried to private meeting thing many times.  It is rare that it turns out well.  I will tell you my entire Naval Officer career is based on praise in public and discipline in private.  Very hard to switch off that thinking... . but I think that somehow my praise needs to be public as well as me standing up to or complaining about my wife's behavior towards me and kids.  That way her reactions are more public and more ridiculous.  I used to care about saving her from embarrasment.  I don't anymore.

I've gotta run.  I will try to come back later and address more questions.  Thank you for the thoughtful insight! 

[Grey Kitty]

This has me thinking (probably a bad thing... . since I can over analyze)... . one of my primary complaints is that when we make "deals"... . I comply (as close to 100% as possible)... . and she almost never complys.

If the "deals" aren't working for you, make different ones, or just refuse to do participate. (The next time she offers a deal, say that you aren't happy with how the prior ones played out and don't want to try again)

The ones I recall involved indefinite behavior modification on her part against a single action on your part. That is seems unfair (if followed by both of you), and also an invitation on her part to follow through for a little while, then stop. (Because she once she gets what she wanted, the incentive to comply on her part is gone)

Find other solutions to get what you want from her, instead.

For example, here's a boundary you could use on text bombing. If she sends you ONE text bomb in a given day, block her number on your phone until you come home.

I guess you should give her notice, since she might not know you aren't getting her txts. Txt her back and say "I don't want to get this kind of (abuse, crap, whatever you choose to call it) by txt. If you send me another one I'll block your number." Then block her after the second.

If it comes up, consider a deal with more parity (behavior change forever vs behavior change forever, or single action vs single action). Your ability/desire to comply will match hers, and the result will feel more fair (at least to you!) whether you both comply or both fade off.

So... . does this call into question if she has BPD?  Because she can control herself when she wants to ... . or it is to her advantage. 

Probably not, as most pwBPD can control their behavior when they need to. (For example, many of us find that our partner is never abusive in public, and frequently in private, which also indicates control over their behavior.)

And I don't think the label / diagnosis really matters in the end... What matters is the support, advice, and tools you find here--do they help you cope with your situation and with your wife?

[Grey Kitty]

As for how to stand up for a family member... . I still dunno what you can do.

I do have one point to make--your kids all see what is happening and have the "rules" in your family deeply embedded inside them, whether they break or follow them.

They know that mom makes arbitrary demands.

They know that complying (grudgingly) works.

They know the consequences of defiance. (I'm not clear on how bad that is)

They may not speak to it, but they KNOW. They may be silent about it in a family counseling session, not because they don't know, but because they DO know.

Have you related any of these sort of stories in family counseling?

As I said, how you stand up to her behavior against your children isn't all that easy or clear to me.

When it comes to her behavior toward you, you have a much clearer chance to set boundaries. Make sure you set an example of how to behave with her that you would like them to follow, especially if they find similar behavior from their future girl/boyfriend.

[formflier]

Grey Kitty,

Thanks for the insight.  Points that I'm taking from this... . that more clearly define my task.

Ultimately... . I don't like the "rules" that my kids have learned in my house.  I've got to take the lead in showing the proper way to deal with my wife's behavior.  Knowing that I can't predict the outcome (wife's reaction)... . or the kids for that matter.

I'm guessing it will be one of those it gets worse before it gets better things.  I don't think I can let it go because otherwise... . I have blessed the behavior by my passivity.  I believe this is what uBPDw father did.  He is a great guy... . "fun"... . but there is no backbone or "substance" there.  My gut says he realizes that his wife is not right and tries to make up for it by focusing on kids (and grandkids) having a fun childhood.  Video games, tvs, motorbikes... . put the work of until tomorrow... . there is fun to be had today... . don't skip it.

That line of thinking has been a constant simmering argument in our family because I'm a work first... . then relax kinda guy.  The order of things matters to me. 

All that being said... . I am coming up with the same "blanks" that Grey Kitty does because I don't know exactly how to go about this.  I will further say that go about this in a way that is well thought through and that I can stick with it.  I don't want to try to stand up to her, get shot down (so to speak) and then have my kids see me retire from the battlefield.  I also don't want to have the wrong motives... . the point is to protect my kids and to model good behavior... . not to punish or embarrass wife.

Family counseling:  Only one session... . I was expecting to say hi... . fill out forms and stay in lobby with uBPDw.  I ended up being the focus of her "pouncing" on my faults and issues as THE problem in the household.  Took me a day or two for the preceding week and that event to sink in.

My current goal is to bring up the bullying (or whatever you call it) at next session and ask counselor for advice on how to deal with it in between sessions.  That way everyone knows it is coming... . and whatever the counselors advice is will be heard by all.  I also have the cover that it is the one that she picked out... .

I'm sure she will come up with whacky theories about why I am doing this and how I am bad for doing it... . oh well.

Final for this post:  The responsibility to demonstrate good behavior so my kids know what to do when faced by it is a huge one.  Still coming to grips with this. 

I like to express this in a different way.  When I look at my girls (although I know BPD could affect any)... . I feel the heavy weight of trying to stop a fourth generation of BPD from heading out into the world to wreck chaos and havoc.

Please keep the thoughts coming.

As for how to stand up for a family member... . I still dunno what you can do.

I do have one point to make--your kids all see what is happening and have the "rules" in your family deeply embedded inside them, whether they break or follow them.

They know that mom makes arbitrary demands.

They know that complying (grudgingly) works.

They know the consequences of defiance. (I'm not clear on how bad that is)

They may not speak to it, but they KNOW. They may be silent about it in a family counseling session, not because they don't know, but because they DO know.

Have you related any of these sort of stories in family counseling?

As I said, how you stand up to her behavior against your children isn't all that easy or clear to me.

When it comes to her behavior toward you, you have a much clearer chance to set boundaries. Make sure you set an example of how to behave with her that you would like them to follow, especially if they find similar behavior from their future girl/boyfriend.

[KateCat]

EDITED TO ADD: I cross-posted with your, formflier, and only want to add that I really don't know how you will need to approach your mission either, but just want to say you're a great dad for taking this tough thing on.  . . . .

You asked about the term "emotional caretaker." If you can close your eyes and imagine a time 40 years from now when one child has stepped into a role something like the one you occupy vis-à-vis your wife, then that child might today be an "emotional caretaker" in training. Such a child might be increasingly sensitive to the disordered parent's emotional state (while less and less in touch with his or her own needs). Might marry a man or woman similar to mom. Might struggle with self protection at home and at work.

I agree with GreyKitty. The kids are embedding the family structure within them. Problems with the respective roles individual kids are taking on may not be apparent until adolescence or later. If ever you see anything genuinely worrisome in any child, a school guidance counselor may be a good go-to person to get some feedback and pointers on how to help that particular child. I think board member Matt in particular writes of the help he has received from guidance counselors, including referrals to child psychologists in private practice in his community.

[formflier]

Thanks for the encouragement!

My quick reaction is that my oldest (son) might fall into that category.  He is very easy to get along with... . wants to help others... . puts others ahead of himself.  He is a great guy. 

I need to think on this some more.

I am confident that I have identified that this (rewriting the rules) for family structure and behavior... . are critically important... . and have long term consequences.

EDITED TO ADD: I cross-posted with your, formflier, and only want to add that I really don't know how you will need to approach your mission either, but just want to say you're a great dad for taking this tough thing on.  . . . .

You asked about the term "emotional caretaker." If you can close your eyes and imagine a time 40 years from now when one child has stepped into a role something like the one you occupy vis-à-vis your wife, then that child might today be an "emotional caretaker" in training. Such a child might be increasingly sensitive to the disordered parent's emotional state (while less and less in touch with his or her own needs). Might marry a man or woman similar to mom. Might struggle with self protection at home and at work.

I agree with GreyKitty. The kids are embedding the family structure within them. Problems with the respective roles individual kids are taking on may not be apparent until adolescence or later. If ever you see anything genuinely worrisome in any child, a school guidance counselor may be a good go-to person to get some feedback and pointers on how to help that particular child. I think board member Matt in particular writes of the help he has received from guidance counselors, including referrals to child psychologists in private practice in his community.

[KateCat]

My quick reaction is that my oldest (son) might fall into that category.  He is very easy to get along with... . wants to help others... . puts others ahead of himself.  He is a great guy. 

These are fine human traits. If you can get the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud into this young man's hands at some point, you'll have a winner!

(This great book may be particularly relevant to your family members as Townsend and Cloud are explicitly Christian authors in addition to being professional psychologists.)

[formflier]

Very interesting... . was just having a phone conversation with a Christian friend... . who recommended this book.  I'll be ordering it later today!

My quick reaction is that my oldest (son) might fall into that category.  He is very easy to get along with... . wants to help others... . puts others ahead of himself.  He is a great guy. 

These are fine human traits. If you can get the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud into this young man's hands at some point, you'll have a winner!

(This great book may be particularly relevant to your family members as Townsend and Cloud are explicitly Christian authors in addition to being professional psychologists.)

[Grey Kitty]

I've got a suggestion for you:

Try to define as clearly and sharply as possible a line which your wife crosses with your children.

On one side of the line, she is being a responsible parent, trying to get her children behaving and doing what they should.

On the other side of the line, she is verbally or emotionally abusing your children.

Try to think of enough examples to clearly identify in your head when she crosses the line.

In the two actions you described, asking S13 to stop right then was arbitrary, but didn't sound abusive. Yelling at D17 (with bad language) while she was taking care of the baby seems worse.

Then take action whenever you see her cross that line.

Q: Have you ever discussed excessive discipline (probably safer to call it this than bullying) with your wife while the children are not there?

What does she say to you about it?

[Go Fish]

I have been off the site for a while, taking a break, felt that I'd learned what I needed to know, but this is where I'm at now with our kids too (11 and 15). Public bullying of me and the youngest, depending on the mood, the oldest is golden... . it's really hard to take, and I'm lashing out, which is not the way to go.

This is where it's hard to justify staying. I feel like I don't get to have quality time with my kids because when we're all together, he's lashing out and saying it's my fault, as well as trying to, and succeeding at times, turn them against me. It's really hard for me to rise above it.

This is so far from a marriage, I feel like I'm on a different planet. Really don't want to deal with it. Sorry I don't have better advice. I'm just glad some people are addressing this issue for those of us who are staying with kids.

[formflier]

I agree about staying being hard given the behavior I see and hear about when I am not around.

I have it in my mind that it will be worse to "abandon" them to uBPDw for "half time" if we divorce. 

I really want to stay together but need to figure out a way to deal with... . stand up to... . whatever... . this bullying.  Even if it creates a blowup.  I am confident I can remain calm and not get baited... . and she will do... . whatever she will do.  I just need to make sure I have it clear in my mind what I need to do... . and stick with it.

But... many others have acknowledged here that this is hard... . when I am around... . and even harder when I am not.  Am I really going to try to get my kids to walk out on Mommy when she is cussing them? 

So... for now... . still scratching my head.  I somehow am hoping to turn the family counseling "ambush" into a win for the entire family by giving us a chance to talk about behaviors in the house that bother us.  I will be happy to speak up for kids... . or just talkin generalities.

When anyone in the house cusses someone else... . how should we respond?  If we can all agree in counseling on how that should go... . and then Mommy cusses someone... . that could be appropriate cover.

Typing posts like this make me shake my head that this type of behavior goes on in anyone's family... . let alone mine.

I have been off the site for a while, taking a break, felt that I'd learned what I needed to know, but this is where I'm at now with our kids too (11 and 15). Public bullying of me and the youngest, depending on the mood, the oldest is golden... . it's really hard to take, and I'm lashing out, which is not the way to go.

This is where it's hard to justify staying. I feel like I don't get to have quality time with my kids because when we're all together, he's lashing out and saying it's my fault, as well as trying to, and succeeding at times, turn them against me. It's really hard for me to rise above it.

This is so far from a marriage, I feel like I'm on a different planet. Really don't want to deal with it. Sorry I don't have better advice. I'm just glad some people are addressing this issue for those of us who are staying with kids.

[Grey Kitty]

Perhaps this is your limit.

If your wife is cussing AT your children, you and your children (both the recipient and the others) should not be subject to this.

Is this the place where you want to make a stand?

Side note: Think about a voice recorder. I don't know about the legality of using them when one party does not know about the recording. I understand that both phone apps and stand-alone units are readily available... . Folks on the legal board can advise you about this more. I can imagine situations where  recording of either this or threats to ruin you with (false) accusations could save your butt.

[formflier]

Yes it is legal in my state... NC.  It's a one party consent state.  If you are talking to me... . I don't need to ask your permission.

That being said... . I will have to review the recordings to see what I have and don't have.  It takes time and the odd thing is that what I experienced... . and what I heard later don't exactly match with the emotion.  Words were accurate... . but I can see that someone listening might not think it as big a deal.

I do have things recorded such as me asking to speak to children... . her shouting over me... . me asking when I can speak to them without her interrupting... . and she declares that will happen when we get divorced.  They then storm out the door on the way to church.  I thought about trying to "stop it"... but not sure how. 

That recording is shocking to listen to... . and sad.  You still can't get the impact of your kids looking at you while listening to mommy say horrible things... . and then following her out the door... . because if they didn't... .

Sigh... .


Direct answer:  Yes I want to make a stand on this.  I'm not saying I need to do this tomorrow... . or in a week.  But I need to carefully... . praryerfully... . thoughtfully... . think through what I will say... . how I will say it... . and be prepared to stick with this.

In other words:  If in 6 months I am still on these boards wondering how to stand up to uBPDw about bullying the kids... . call me out on it.  I better have a good answer. 

Just made first post on the inventory board.  Took a test... . hmmmm

Will come back later and post more over there.  What will we find out when formflier lays back on the black couch... and starts talking?  Hmmm

Perhaps this is your limit.

If your wife is cussing AT your children, you and your children (both the recipient and the others) should not be subject to this.

Is this the place where you want to make a stand?

Side note: Think about a voice recorder. I don't know about the legality of using them when one party does not know about the recording. I understand that both phone apps and stand-alone units are readily available... . Folks on the legal board can advise you about this more. I can imagine situations where  recording of either this or threats to ruin you with (false) accusations could save your butt.

[KateCat]

I vote for the "cussing boundary."  If statements like "get your ass up off the floor" can disappear from the home, everyone wins.

If someone in the family refuses to take the pledge not to cuss, then that person may have trouble with the fundamental concept of interpersonal respect. And that might be a clear issue to take to a counselor for feedback and advice. Maybe it could lead to individual counseling for that one person. 

[formflier]

I agree!

Another statement she (uBPDw) made one time when justify her behavior... . "I yell at my kids some... . so what"  She even will admit that she didn't like being yelled at as a child... . and promised herself she would never do this to her own kids... and now has a "so what?" attitude about it.

I vote for the "cussing boundary."  If statements like "get your ass up off the floor" can disappear from the home, everyone wins.

If someone in the family refuses to take the pledge not to cuss, then that person may have trouble with the fundamental concept of interpersonal respect. And that might be a clear issue to take to a counselor for feedback and advice. Maybe it could lead to individual counseling for that one person.