Well, this really is a small town

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, I do just fine being alone, so I have to challenge myself at times not to isolate and reach out and make new friends.

I have met a few new friends, some of them married, some of them not.  One of my girlfriends called to check on me this morning, as I hadn't talked to her in a couple of weeks.  I was running through the latest divorce drama and got to the point about my husband and his attorney requesting mediation ASAP with this particular mediator who supposedly has an excellent reputation.  She asked, "It isn't So and So, is it?", I responded that it was.  She follows up with, "THAT'S MY EX HUSBAND!".  I'm like, "You mean the thrice married and divorced narcissist who was verbally and emotionally abusive that was like a chameleon/Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, who cheated on you and tried to intimidate you and rob you blind during the divorce?".  Same guy.

Guess I'll be shooting off an email to my attorney.  There's one other mediator in town... . a female, hehe.  DH won't be able to handle that.

[The Mrs]

So, I do just fine being alone, so I have to challenge myself at times not to isolate and reach out and make new friends.

I have met a few new friends, some of them married, some of them not.  One of my girlfriends called to check on me this morning, as I hadn't talked to her in a couple of weeks.  I was running through the latest divorce drama and got to the point about my husband and his attorney requesting mediation ASAP with this particular mediator who supposedly has an excellent reputation.  She asked, "It isn't So and So, is it?", I responded that it was.  She follows up with, "THAT'S MY EX HUSBAND!".  I'm like, "You mean the thrice married and divorced narcissist who was verbally and emotionally abusive that was like a chameleon/Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, who cheated on you and tried to intimidate you and rob you blind during the divorce?".  Same guy.

Guess I'll be shooting off an email to my attorney.  There's one other mediator in town... . a female, hehe.  DH won't be able to handle that.

[formflier]

I too live in a small town... and small county.  Large landmass... but small population.

So... . this kind of thing happens all the time around here. 

Switching gears.

It appears that lots of attempts at mediation and settlement fail with BPds.  So curious if this is a step you have to take... ?  Or if it is just a check block on the way to trial? 

I seem to read many stories of settlement offers on the courthouse steps. 

While I hope I never get to that point... . I think I would just go on to trial and air all the lovely stuff... . even if it cost me some more legal fees.

So, I do just fine being alone, so I have to challenge myself at times not to isolate and reach out and make new friends.

I have met a few new friends, some of them married, some of them not.  One of my girlfriends called to check on me this morning, as I hadn't talked to her in a couple of weeks.  I was running through the latest divorce drama and got to the point about my husband and his attorney requesting mediation ASAP with this particular mediator who supposedly has an excellent reputation.  She asked, "It isn't So and So, is it?", I responded that it was.  She follows up with, "THAT'S MY EX HUSBAND!".  I'm like, "You mean the thrice married and divorced narcissist who was verbally and emotionally abusive that was like a chameleon/Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, who cheated on you and tried to intimidate you and rob you blind during the divorce?".  Same guy.

Guess I'll be shooting off an email to my attorney.  There's one other mediator in town... . a female, hehe.  DH won't be able to handle that.

[The Mrs]

I can't imagine mediation going anywhere for a variety of reasons... .

- DH thinks he knows better than everybody else.

- He has no concept of compromise.

- He does not believe that the rules, any rules, apply to him.

- He can't sit still long enough to watch a movie, let sit through hours of mediation.

- He's easily frustrated.

Etc, etc,etc.

The odd thing is that this was his attorney's request, so I'll play, for a bit, but I have already begun preparing myself mentally and emotionally that this will go to trial.  I'm also doing my best to prepare financially... . cutting out nonessentials like cable TV, heck, I didn't even have a TV for the first 7 months after I left and I truly didn't miss it, I mean I'm living my own soap opera/ Lifetime TV drama!

[ForeverDad]

If you need basis to change mediators you can honestly state that one of your friends had been married to him and that due to the relationships you don't believe he can be neutral.

Yes, mediation may be required, either by the court or once ex requested it, but try your best to have it not put the divorce on hold, keep the next hearing date on the calendar.  The odds are extremely high that mediation will fail quickly no matter who is the mediator.  Don't feel at all bad if you have to conclude and state, "mediation has failed, now we go back to court".

For most of us here, mediation was one of the first steps the court ordered and unfortunately mediation usually doesn't succeed in the early stages of a high conflict divorce, the oppositional entitled spouse had no incentive to negotiate. Something is more likely later, such as "on the court house steps" just before a hearing or trial.

[formflier]

Forever dad... . and others,

If there is an acceptable settlement offer on the courthouse steps... . should most people accept... . or is there an advantage in a high conflict divorce about airing out the facts... . assuming the facts show ridiculous behavior by one party and upstanding behavior by the other.

I hear many people say (in real life) that courts expect ridiculous behavior... . so documenting it is of no real value.  However... . don't think those people were in a divorce that involved a disordered person.

My ex brother in law filed for divorce from my uBPDw sister... . he let a lot of stuff go "for the good of the children"... . that I thought he should have fought.

When she banged her own hand in an attempt to frame him... . and the cop told him that the only reason he wasn't going to jail was an audio recording... . he elected not to "push it"... and make a big deal about an obviously false allegation. 

I really hope I don't go down that road... . but I think it is coming.  I'll have to start a new thread about tonights mishap at our house... . but if you look at some of my previous posts... . I think I stopped a "bullying episode"... . took about an hour...

Very frustrating... very scary

If you need basis to change mediators you can honestly state that one of your friends had been married to him and that due to the relationships you don't believe he can be neutral.

Yes, mediation may be required, either by the court or once ex requested it, but try your best to have it not put the divorce on hold, keep the next hearing date on the calendar.  The odds are extremely high that mediation will fail quickly no matter who is the mediator.  Don't feel at all bad if you have to conclude and state, "mediation has failed, now we go back to court".

For most of us here, mediation was one of the first steps the court ordered and unfortunately mediation usually doesn't succeed in the early stages of a high conflict divorce, the oppositional entitled spouse had no incentive to negotiate. Something is more likely later, such as "on the court house steps" just before a hearing or trial.

[Boss302]

It appears that lots of attempts at mediation and settlement fail with BPds.  So curious if this is a step you have to take... ?  Or if it is just a check block on the way to trial? 

Courts want you to mediate because it's less effort for them. And, for people who are normal, mediation is terrific. But mediating with a BPD is like trying to negotiate a nuclear treaty with Dear Leader in North Korea - you can't negotiate with someone who doesn't intend to follow any rules. Most BPDs have basic dishonesty issues and don't negotiate in good faith. My ex "mediated" with me to the tune of a $1,000 mediation fee for the initial custody orders in November 2011, signed the agreement, and then had her attorney try to renegotiate the whole thing the next day. It wasn't finalized until February 2012 at great legal cost.

Same with our final orders. They were hashed out by a mediator, who sent a copy to both of us, with the stipulation that it would become a binding court order if no objection was filed within seven days. My BPDx never filed a response, and has been whining ever since about how the orders are "in error", and refuses to honor them. She's whining with me right now about when we will have the kids over summer break, trying to "negotiate" it when it's already done, and the basic schedule is already a court order. It never ends.

As investments go, mediating with a BPD is about as smart as piling up a great deal of money on your driveway, dousing it in lighter fluid, and lighting a match. Better to get your orders from a judge. With any luck, when the ex fails to follow the orders, you'll get the same judge if you have to return to court... . and that doesn't look good for the BPDx. Not one bit.

[formflier]

Got it...

My take from this is to do minimal mediation and focus on getting in front of a judge. 

I hope I never have to start the divorce or custody process... . but things are not looking good.

Counseling is not in good faith, agreements now are not kept, and I suspect that ever there ever is an order from a judge... . that it will be tested as well. 

Is there anyone out there with examples where they enforced a judges order on a pwBPD... . and had something come of it? 

It appears that lots of attempts at mediation and settlement fail with BPds.  So curious if this is a step you have to take... ?  Or if it is just a check block on the way to trial? 

Courts want you to mediate because it's less effort for them. And, for people who are normal, mediation is terrific. But mediating with a BPD is like trying to negotiate a nuclear treaty with Dear Leader in North Korea - you can't negotiate with someone who doesn't intend to follow any rules. Most BPDs have basic dishonesty issues and don't negotiate in good faith. My ex "mediated" with me to the tune of a $1,000 mediation fee for the initial custody orders in November 2011, signed the agreement, and then had her attorney try to renegotiate the whole thing the next day. It wasn't finalized until February 2012 at great legal cost.

Same with our final orders. They were hashed out by a mediator, who sent a copy to both of us, with the stipulation that it would become a binding court order if no objection was filed within seven days. My BPDx never filed a response, and has been whining ever since about how the orders are "in error", and refuses to honor them. She's whining with me right now about when we will have the kids over summer break, trying to "negotiate" it when it's already done, and the basic schedule is already a court order. It never ends.

As investments go, mediating with a BPD is about as smart as piling up a great deal of money on your driveway, dousing it in lighter fluid, and lighting a match. Better to get your orders from a judge. With any luck, when the ex fails to follow the orders, you'll get the same judge if you have to return to court... . and that doesn't look good for the BPDx. Not one bit.

[Boss302]

Got it...

My take from this is to do minimal mediation and focus on getting in front of a judge. 

I hope I never have to start the divorce or custody process... . but things are not looking good.

Counseling is not in good faith, agreements now are not kept, and I suspect that ever there ever is an order from a judge... . that it will be tested as well. 

Is there anyone out there with examples where they enforced a judges order on a pwBPD... . and had something come of it? 

It appears that lots of attempts at mediation and settlement fail with BPds.  So curious if this is a step you have to take... ?  Or if it is just a check block on the way to trial? 

Courts want you to mediate because it's less effort for them. And, for people who are normal, mediation is terrific. But mediating with a BPD is like trying to negotiate a nuclear treaty with Dear Leader in North Korea - you can't negotiate with someone who doesn't intend to follow any rules. Most BPDs have basic dishonesty issues and don't negotiate in good faith. My ex "mediated" with me to the tune of a $1,000 mediation fee for the initial custody orders in November 2011, signed the agreement, and then had her attorney try to renegotiate the whole thing the next day. It wasn't finalized until February 2012 at great legal cost.

Same with our final orders. They were hashed out by a mediator, who sent a copy to both of us, with the stipulation that it would become a binding court order if no objection was filed within seven days. My BPDx never filed a response, and has been whining ever since about how the orders are "in error", and refuses to honor them. She's whining with me right now about when we will have the kids over summer break, trying to "negotiate" it when it's already done, and the basic schedule is already a court order. It never ends.

As investments go, mediating with a BPD is about as smart as piling up a great deal of money on your driveway, dousing it in lighter fluid, and lighting a match. Better to get your orders from a judge. With any luck, when the ex fails to follow the orders, you'll get the same judge if you have to return to court... . and that doesn't look good for the BPDx. Not one bit.

Of course, the bad news about "getting this in front of a judge" is the cost.  Be sure to consult with an attorney about your best option.

[formflier]

 

yeah... I'm sure that will be spendy... . but luckily for me I have seen my sister in laws divorce (most likely BPD) and how the continued weirdness after that has affected the kids... and everyone. 

I would be willing to spend every last dime to prevent another generation of BPD from happening... . I believe my wife is generation number 3.

I do agree I need to talk to my attorney about this.  And I am lucky that I consider my longterm attorney my friend as well.  He is a wise older man... . I believe he has my entire family's interest at heart.

And... . he ended up being a single parent to his kids after his wife had a suicide attempt and was admitted to hospital for mental conditions.  Some kind of mood disorder.  It sounds like the condition has never been managed well.

He may be "too close" to be my actual attorney... . but... . I believe he will steer me in the right direction

I hope to have another conversation with him tomorrow...

Now off to post about tonights events... .

Sigh...

[toomanytears]

I can't imagine mediation going anywhere for a variety of reasons... .

- DH thinks he knows better than everybody else.

- He has no concept of compromise.

- He does not believe that the rules, any rules, apply to him.

- He can't sit still long enough to watch a movie, let sit through hours of mediation.

- He's easily frustrated.

Etc, etc,etc.

The odd thing is that this was his attorney's request, so I'll play, for a bit, but I have already begun preparing myself mentally and emotionally that this will go to trial.  I'm also doing my best to prepare financially... . cutting out nonessentials like cable TV, heck, I didn't even have a TV for the first 7 months after I left and I truly didn't miss it, I mean I'm living my own soap opera/ Lifetime TV drama!

me too. Quite entertaining in some ways. Although at times it's more like Game of Thrones... .

[livednlearned]

The odd thing is that this was his attorney's request, so I'll play, for a bit, but I have already begun preparing myself mentally and emotionally that this will go to trial.  I'm also doing my best to prepare financially... .

Just reading your posts, yes -- expect to go to trial. Is your ex paying for mediation? You might want to sort that out before mediation begins. You'll have to pay your lawyer, but according to your incomes, he should be on the hook for mediation. If he can't agree to pay for mediation, then ask for things to go straight to trial if you can.

In a lot of places, court orders both parties to mediation first. In my state, people can waive it, but mediation is considered to show a "good faith" attempt to keep the case out of court. My L wanted to show good faith, and also have N/BPDx pay for that good faith.

We actually resolved a lot in our mediation. From reading others stories here for a while, the degree of narcissism and the gender seems to influence some of the court behavior and what the pwBPD focuses on. The commonalities are non-compliance and impulsivity.

[ForeverDad]

I was running through the latest divorce drama and got to the point about my husband and his attorney requesting mediation ASAP with this particular mediator who supposedly has an excellent reputation.  She asked, "It isn't So and So, is it?", I responded that it was.  She follows up with, "THAT'S MY EX HUSBAND!".  I'm like, "You mean the thrice married and divorced narcissist who was verbally and emotionally abusive that was like a chameleon/Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, who cheated on you and tried to intimidate you and rob you blind during the divorce?".  Same guy.

I wouldn't trust the ex or ex's lawyer to be doing this out of the goodness of their little hearts.  A good test of their thinking is to suggest the other mediator instead.  If they fight that, then you'll know they're picking and choosing a favored mediator.  Maybe the guy is usually a good mediator but a lousy ex-spouse to your friend, no way to be sure in advance, but it can't hurt to ask for the other, right?  Even the semblance of past history, being acquainted with mediator's family, should be enough for one party to request another.  Imagine the mediator walking in, thinking to himself, "So... . this is my ex's friend, huh?"  Hmm, he may not be all that neutral, but right now it's the great unknown.

In my case we were ordered to have 3 mediation sessions.  At the first session we went through and agreed to all but a few material or financial issues.  We stalled on custody and a parenting schedule.  Ex was determined our son was "her" child, that's how things were in her native culture.  Factoid:  She was born and raised half her childhood in the state I resided in when I met her.  Mediator countered, "We're in the USA, not there."  (Another factoid, but I failed to mention it in the session:  Her mother let her father raise her two older brothers, her mother and the abuser SF raised her and her sister.  Well, I was the father of our male child, according to her parents' example then shouldn't I raise our son?)  Mediator saw we were at an impasse, ended the session and said "Come back when your positions change."  (We didn't go back.)  She didn't want to leave at the same time as me, still posturing as the fearful stbEx, so I stayed behind until she had driven away.  AS she walked out the door the mediator commented to the air, "This woman has issues."  After one session.  Mediation failed as expected but at least I tried with good faith efforts.

[GaGrl]

I have been trained as a mediator, but I work in that capacity only in corporate HR issues.

Just as a judge should recuse himself/herself, a mediator should know when to recuse.

You should just state that, due to the personal relationships involved, you won't be working with this mediator.  Nuff said.  You really don't have to explain.

[The Mrs]

I sent an email to my attorney explaining the "small town" situation.

He responded that he did not think it was relevant that my friend was the ex-wife of this mediator!

I asked his thoughts on a second mediator, and he said she wasn't his alternate choice, but if I still had concerns we should talk... .

[cobaltblue]

"If you need basis to change mediators you can honestly state that one of your friends had been married to him and that due to the relationships you don't believe he can be neutral."

IMHO this is not relevant.

You recuse a judge for potential bias, not a mediator.

A mediator has absolutely no, zero, nada, authority to make a judgement. He or she is simply facilitating communication. If that communication goes nowhere, so be it.

This is starkly different than a judge who does have authority to make a ruling.

I don't think it would matter if this person was married to a friend. It would be a huge conflict of interest for ANY mediator to try to influence one party over another, and it's not their job to influence, but to merely facilitate consensus.

DO worry about what judge you get. I wouldn't worry about what mediator you get.

[GaGrl]

"If you need basis to change mediators you can honestly state that one of your friends had been married to him and that due to the relationships you don't believe he can be neutral."

IMHO this is not relevant.

You recuse a judge for potential bias, not a mediator.

A mediator has absolutely no, zero, nada, authority to make a judgement. He or she is simply facilitating communication. If that communication goes nowhere, so be it.

This is starkly different than a judge who does have authority to make a ruling.

I don't think it would matter if this person was married to a friend. It would be a huge conflict of interest for ANY mediator to try to influence one party over another, and it's not their job to influence, but to merely facilitate consensus.

DO worry about what judge you get. I wouldn't worry about what mediator you get.

I disagree somewhat... . a mediator can indeed influence an agreement. There's more to the process than shuffling between rooms to communicate offers or refusals. I've seen mediators influence in both positive and negative ways.

In this case, if anything is going to distract from keeping the focus on the topic at hand, I'd request another mediator.  Anyway, the likelihood of successful mediation with a PD is slim to none, so... .

[ForeverDad]

Cobalt, I have to agree with gagrl, a mediator does make a difference, especially if the parent is not prepared and strengthened to deal with anything and everything encountered.  I don't know how many times I've read here of members heading into mediation, being forewarned about the pressure to make a deal, purpose for attempting mediation, etc and then afterward coming online writing, "Well, I didn't want to do this but I felt I had to and so I... . "

What I'm saying is that there's a lot of pressure there in mediation sessions to accomplish it and a biased mediator can influence it.  For example, let's just take a mediator who has success - an agreement - as the goal.  M goes in and sees that P1 is reasonable but P2 is unreasonable, intractable and refuses to budge an inch.  Very soon M sees P2 is still stubborn and so starts pressuring P1 to give in more and more since P1 is the only parent willing to negotiate.  It can become a very one-sided 'agreement'.  And a biased mediator, even experienced could do this too.

What we don't know is whether TM's friend's misbehaving ex would keep his past personal attitudes away from his professional performance as a mediator.  Possibly not if M knows his ex is friends with TM.

[livednlearned]

My experience is that everyone wants you to settle. The judge, the lawyer, the mediator. If your judge is elected, he'll be very motivated to keep a manageable case load so he isn't haunted by backlog when he runs for election. Lawyers try to do what judges want them to do -- no frivolous appearances in court if it can be avoided. Your lawyer probably prides himself on settling. Mine said she settled 75% of all her cases, and that was meant to impress me. Most mediators in family law are former attorneys. They drink from the same well.

The trick for you is to make decisions ahead of time and have a firm boundary about what you are and aren't willing to agree to. Talk to a financial planner. Go over all the email communications. Talk to friends and your therapist. Get advice here. Write down on a piece of paper what you want, what you are willing to settle for, and take that with you into mediation so you can communicate with your calm brain when your stressed brain is in mediation.

Even if your mediator tries to remain neutral, there may be a subtle pressure to be reasonable. The problem is that "reasonable" is open to interpretation.

It was reasonable for everyone else in my mediation to allow joint legal custody. It's the status quo. But joint legal was never going to be reasonable with a disordered ex. I had to dig in my heels with my mediator and lawyer.

It works the other way too. I thought it was reasonable to give N/BPDx the house and let him have his 401K. I thought he would give me full custody in return. My L didn't want to see me walk away with such a big boot print on my back, and she knew that anything we decided over custody could be re-opened at any time, whereas the financial stuff would be a closed book.

Don't let your lawyer do all the leading here. He works for you. If you don't feel comfortable with that mediator, then find another one.

At the end of the day, if you don't like what you're hearing, end mediation. You can always schedule another one.