May need to remove kids

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=226239.0


I'm going to try to get in my lawyers office first thing this morning.

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=226239.0


I'm going to try to get in my lawyers office first thing this morning.

[formflier]

My actual posting from the staying board... . there is some good feedback over there.  I think I have a safety plan for today


Well... . something else happened that I couldn't let go.  I'll try to be clear about what I think and what i saw and know.

I think that lots of kids were outside with Mommy working on things around the yard and playing.  Apparently a van stopped in the road and honked to alert people that our 1 year old was walking down the road.  I believe uBPDw then grabbed S12, D8, and S6 and got them inside the house and to the back bedroom... . as far away from my location in the house as possible. (that may... or may not have played into her thinking)  I was vaguely aware that something was going on... . my ears perked up to pay attention... . but at this point I didn't know what was going on... . I had been inside the entire time.

I hear a massive series of whacks... . and children start screaming.  Listen... . when I grew up... . I earned many a whipping... . I don't think I ever got one I didn't deserve.  I have listened to some big whacks land on my rear... and that of my buddies that were involved in whatever was I was getting paddled for.  What I heard from across the house rivaled anything I have ever heard in my life... . the screaming that I heard from the children was the worst I have ever heard... . ever... . and there have been some incidents in the past several months.

I click on my recorder on my phone as I'm heading down the hall.  I arrive in the room to see the belt being used... . the swing was being used from as high in the air as she could get her hand... . and then being brought down onto a child.  I am not sure if I prevented one of the three from being spanked... . or if I arrived as last one was getting spanked.  The recording is hard to listen to... . big whacks... . and screams of multiple children.  If I had video... . I think I would have something provable... . I may now.

She tried to get ahold of D8 and had to let go of S12 to get to her.  I stood in fron of D8 and prevented Mommy from touching her.  She went back and grabbed S12 and kept hugging him.

I keep repeating in as calm a voice as I could that I believed Mommy and I should leave the room and have a private conversation.  She kept ordering me out... . saying I was the bully... . saying I was out of control... . etc etc etc

She kept asking S12 if he wanted Daddy to leave.  If Daddy was the problem... . S12 never spoke... . never.  I tried to point out that he obviously didn't want to talk... she would tug his head over on her shoulder and caress his head... . kiss his forehead... . tell him it would be ok. 

She finally tells S12 that they would go talk on porch.  I followed.  She still had an agitated look on her face... although it was better... . after about a 30 minute standoff in the bedroom.

Similar discussions went on while on front porch.  "S12... raise your right hand if you want Daddy to leave... . raise your left hand if you want Mommy to leave... . raise both if you want us both to leave" (this was Mommy talking).  He didn't flinch.  All the while the stroking... . kissing... caressing was going on.

Another 38 minutes on the front porch and the temperture had gone down.  Her face seemed more relaxed.

The entire time S18 was hovering around... watching.  I stated to the entire group and addressed S12 specifically and said the situation looked calmer... . that I would be just inside with the window open if I was needed.  I went inside... . the entire group stayed out there for another 10 or 15 minutes before coming inside.

I approached uBPDw and asked if we could have a private conversation... . she said she was getting ready for a shower and was "too busy" to talk.  I expressed that I thought a conversation about parenting was more important than a shower.  She disagreed.  I asked when we could talk in private and she said "Well... we have our appointment tomorrow (marriage counseling)"  I asked if she would like to ride separately or together.  She said she wanted to drive separately.  I said I would see her at 3pm tomorrow.  She sort of grunted... and I walked away.


Whew... . I have listened to some of the recordings.  Very clear.  Very distressing.  BPD behavior is in full swing. 

Now:  Action plan... . this is obviously going to come up in counseling.  I have put on my sheet that I think we need to have an agreement of no more physical discipline until our marriage and parenting issues are sorted out. 

No idea where that is going to go in counseling... . but I will not stand by while beatings like that continue in the house.  Not going to happen... .   I need help figuring out effective ways to work on this.

I will be calling my lawyer first thing in morning. 


More in a bit.

[DoxieLover]

Oh my goodness!  Fortunately I have never been in a situation like that. It sounds horrible! All I can say is good luck and God bless you. I will pray for you and your children.   

[ForeverDad]

Yes, seek legal advice.  Not sure, it might be good to report it to CPS or even file a report with the police.  If the lawyer doesn't respond soon, you can even go to the court and file an Ex Parte motion to have the other spouse removed from the residence, the kids and yourself.  That would be a temporary restraining or protection order.  It would be for a few weeks since action is being taken without both parents' involvement, only long enough for both parents to appear before the judge and both have an opportunity to present the case.

Be aware that judges prefer a long term solutions.  Just asking for protection without some sort of long term solution (legal separation or divorce) is not a good solution since your spouse may be able to fly under the court's radar long enough to have the RO or PO eventually dismissed and then your leverage is gone.

Frankly, if you're pondering when to file for divorce and haven't done so yet, this is a powerful time to file and possibly even start off with temporary custody.

Note:  Legal Separation is an option that few if any use here and and doesn't make a clean end to the marriage.

[Waddams]

i read this thread, and the one linked... . as for removing kids, I'd go the other way and explore a restraining order to remove your BPDw from the house.  

I hate to even think of this, but your 17 and 18 year olds - how are they doing through all this?  and would they give testimony to support your recordings and even expand on things/incidents that didn't get recorded?  Give a bigger picture context that supports your case?  It's a horrible place to put your kids in, but at the same time the younger kids need protection from this stuff.  It's not about taking sides for you or your BPDw, it's about taking the younger kids sides first.

Just remember, the filing for a restraining order and to have her removed from the home, it's the nuclear option.  You can't ever go back on it, and you'll be arch enemy #1 forever for the BPDw afterwards.  If you file it, it's the end of the marriage.  You'll need to progress to divorce in very short order, and never reconsider.  If you do, she'll find a way to make you pay.

And FD's point about reporting it to CPS or the police is a good one too.  Maybe a trip to the doctor to get the kids checked out.  If they've got bruises/marks from the beating, you need to get it documented by 3rd party professionals.  Doctors and police reports combined with the recording will make pretty strong evidence that she hurt the kids.

[formflier]

All good stuff.  Keep the information coming.

I understand this is nuclear option... . if it comes to that.  But... . one way or another... . things will change in this house... . if it takes a nuke to do it... . then that is it.

Not much time right now... but good talk with laywer and with Sheriff.  Opinion is strong that moves must be made to protect the kids.  There is still some debate about exactly what to do.

Couple hours to sort this out.

[catnap]

Do you think she is capable of not using physical punishment even if she promises?  My thoughts are it is easy to promises and agree, but will she take it seriously? 

The incident you are describing sounds horrific.   

[ForeverDad]

BPD is an emotion dysregulation disorder.  When her emotions are high, she's not listening.  Reasoning won't work with someone not only entitled and with black or white thinking but also ranting and raging.  There is no 'quick fix' where it will never happen again.  That's why promises will mean little.

They're right about never going back to the life before.  Or at least if she doesn't get into and positively respond to intensive long term therapy.  In my case, my ex threatened "I will kill you!"  I called 911 and the police came.  She did not respond well, she was beyond angry at me that I raised/countered her conflict to a higher level, police involvement, and it created a divide that was never healed.

It would be very difficult to leave with the children.  Odds are the kids will stay in the home, so you should too.  (Frankly, she will try to get you forced out, knowing that then she'd probably get the kids, even despite her behaviors.  So be aware and beware.)

[Boss302]

I never had to deal with this kind of garbage so I'm not sure what advice to give you, but my first inclination would be to set a very clear boundary that you will have zero percent tolerance for even suspected abuse, and that if you suspect it again, you're gathering up the kids, taking them to a neighbor's house, and calling 911. Leave it at that. No drama, no arguments, no discussion. Just "do it again and you'll have the cops to deal with, not me."

If you have an attorney, now's the time for a consultation.

Also, if there's abuse involved here, don't be shocked if you end up on the other end of the accusing finger. BPDs like to "spin" their failures onto other people, and they WILL use their children as tools in this.

I wish you good luck here.

[ForeverDad]

Also, if there's abuse involved here, don't be shocked if you end up on the other end of the accusing finger. BPDs like to "spin" their failures onto other people, and they WILL use their children as tools in this.

As happened with me, I could count on new allegations shortly before upcoming hearing dates or after my ex had made some huge blunder.  For example, I recall the time she raged at the pediatrician's staff and the pediatrician then 'fired' her by withdrawing services from our son.  Within a week or so she made a child abuse allegation trying to make me look worse than her.  It failed of course, it was unsubstantiated, but it served its purpose, it muddied the water, so to speak, so that afterward her raging incident was mostly ignored.  You see, her getting 'fired' did not rise to the level of CPS investigation but her allegation against me of child abuse did.  In the end, since she had temp custody at the time, she got to choose the new pediatrician.  Almost a reward, certainly not consequences.

Reminder:  Officialdom mostly doesn't care about one disorder or another.  Unless she has been officially diagnosed with BPD, don't use that label.  Focus on the behaviors.  It's all about the behaviors.  Sorry, a label just from you is virtually meaningless, don't try to Play Doctor on your own.  Put the behaviors and behavior patterns front and center.

[Boss302]

Also, if there's abuse involved here, don't be shocked if you end up on the other end of the accusing finger. BPDs like to "spin" their failures onto other people, and they WILL use their children as tools in this.

As happened with me, I could count on new allegations shortly before upcoming hearing dates or after my ex had made some huge blunder.  For example, I recall the time she raged at the pediatrician's staff and the pediatrician then 'fired' her by withdrawing services from our son.  Within a week or so she made a child abuse allegation trying to make me look worse than her.  It failed of course, it was unsubstantiated, but it served its purpose, it muddied the water, so to speak, so that afterward her raging incident was mostly ignored.  You see, her getting 'fired' did not rise to the level of CPS investigation but her allegation against me of child abuse did.  In the end, since she had temp custody at the time, she got to choose the new pediatrician.  Almost a reward, certainly not consequences.

Reminder:  Officialdom mostly doesn't care about one disorder or another.  Unless she has been officially diagnosed with BPD, don't use that label.  Focus on the behaviors.  It's all about the behaviors.  Sorry, a label just from you is virtually meaningless, don't try to Play Doctor on your own.  Put the behaviors and behavior patterns front and center.

These people ALL do the same stupid things! My BPDx was put in charge of mental health issues for the kids (talk about the blind leading the blind!), and has no car. She stopped taking D13 to her therapist in March because of "concerns" about the practice. We had a nice setup there - it was close to home, I could take the kids if I got enough advance notice, and the insurance situation was fine, so I was puzzled about why she wouldn't take her back there.

Turns out the real reason was that she blew up at at the secretary in the office and couldn't handle showing her face there again. So instead of the nice, handy office that takes our insurance, and is affordable, she picked out a therapist that's a LONG way from the suburb we live in, that doesn't take insurance... . and did I mention she can't drive? Oh, and yeah... . I had to threaten BPDx with court if she wouldn't disclose the new therapist's contact info. Not surprisingly, the new therapist won't return my phone calls. Guess what happened there? 

She asked me to start taking D13, and I said no. This is her decision and she'll have to make sure everything gets taken care of. If it doesn't, I'll go back and have this taken away from her.

In the end, sometimes you have to let these people FAIL epically.

[livednlearned]

I hear a massive series of whacks... . and children start screaming.  Listen... . when I grew up... . I earned many a whipping... . I don't think I ever got one I didn't deserve.  I have listened to some big whacks land on my rear... and that of my buddies that were involved in whatever was I was getting paddled for.  What I heard from across the house rivaled anything I have ever heard in my life... . the screaming that I heard from the children was the worst I have ever heard... . ever... . and there have been some incidents in the past several months.

You were whipped as a child? Formflier, that is heartbreaking. Almost as heartbreaking is the idea that you felt you deserved it.  :'(

I click on my recorder on my phone as I'm heading down the hall.  I arrive in the room to see the belt being used... . the swing was being used from as high in the air as she could get her hand... . and then being brought down onto a child.  I am not sure if I prevented one of the three from being spanked... . or if I arrived as last one was getting spanked.  The recording is hard to listen to... . big whacks... . and screams of multiple children.  If I had video... . I think I would have something provable... . I may now.

Are you in a state where recording is legal? Even if you are not, a guardian ad litem or someone from CPS will likely want to hear the recording. If your older kids can confirm that the incident happened, especially the 18 year old, then that will help.

She tried to get ahold of D8 and had to let go of S12 to get to her.  I stood in fron of D8 and prevented Mommy from touching her.  She went back and grabbed S12 and kept hugging him.

I keep repeating in as calm a voice as I could that I believed Mommy and I should leave the room and have a private conversation.  She kept ordering me out... . saying I was the bully... . saying I was out of control... . etc etc etc

This sounds like psychosis.

I approached uBPDw and asked if we could have a private conversation... . she said she was getting ready for a shower and was "too busy" to talk.  I expressed that I thought a conversation about parenting was more important than a shower.  She disagreed.  I asked when we could talk in private and she said "Well... we have our appointment tomorrow (marriage counseling)"  I asked if she would like to ride separately or together.  She said she wanted to drive separately.  I said I would see her at 3pm tomorrow.  She sort of grunted... and I walked away.

You're entering really serious territory here and need to think this through carefully. A counselor is obligated by law to report child abuse -- which is the appropriate thing to do based on what you described. It's possible, if you haven't been doing anything to prevent the abuse, and aren't actively preparing to protect them, that the state could temporarily remove the kids from your care. Whatever you say to your counselor can be subpoenaed. Counseling for therapy is effectively over, and you're now heading straight into the lion's den where you have to start thinking about how a judge or third-parties sees the situation. What you do in the next 48 hours is going to matter more than the recording. You have to act like someone who has the kids' best interests in mind, and that means reporting the abuse, or physically protecting the kids. In court, you will run the risk of looking negligent.

You need to talk to a lawyer immediately and find out how things will play out if you go to that counseling session tomorrow. Whatever you do, it's important that you recognize how serious this is. I'm concerned that you can't see it clearly because of the abuse you experienced as a child. The state isn't going to wait until you see the connection, they're going to think you aren't capable of caring for the kids if you don't recognize the level of abuse going on. Part of you sees it, but you think you can manage it. You can't.

Formflier, a lot of people who end up in BPD relationships experienced abuse as a child. I did. It makes it very hard to see clearly what is normal and not normal. We tend to have the ability to tolerate higher levels of unacceptable abuse. I was in such thick FOG from my own upbringing that I didn't even recognize the abuse.

I understand that this is incredibly blunt, but I'm saying to you what my lawyer said to me: If you don't recognize how serious this is, you are in for the ride of your life through the legal system. You have to wake up.

Write an email to your lawyer tonight, or if anyone is still in the office, make an urgent call today. Explain that your wife has been violent with the kids, and that you need to protect them immediately. Ask whether you should attend counseling tomorrow from a legal perspective, and if so, what will happen if you do or don't report the abuse, and what the legal obligations are of the counselor to report it. If the counselor reports the abuse before you have filed something, what are the ramifications. Ask if the recordings are admissible in court, and what you should do to protect the kids from your wife. 

I'm so sorry formflier, for you, for your family.

Your wife is seriously ill. My ex suffers from psychosis as well. It's a sickness that devastates.

[ForeverDad]

I agree with LnL's point that you need to be seen as clearly having the children's interests and safety as top priority.  This is not something to negotiate over.  What makes it hard for me is that courts, agencies and other professionals have to decide whether something is actionable or not.  And so I don't trust myself to know how professionals would see what I think is actionable.  Don't you doubt yourself.  Speak up for the children.  (Next week or next month might be too late, it won't have the same urgency.  I called 911 when my ex threatened my life.  If I had called a month later they wouldn't have sent emergency responders out, I would have been told, "Call back when it is an emergency."  Yes, it will be seen as more urgent and actionable if you report it and act sooner rather than later.)

In family court, after separation but before I filed for divorce I testified that my ex kicked me and hit me on the head while I was driving.  That protection motion was dismissed.  (Ex withdrew her motion.)  Clearly, beating on a spouse who was driving wasn't seen as an actionable issue months later.  I guess the court set a high bar there to jump over and I failed.

When I called CPS - twice in 2005 - stating that my son was being affected by then-spouse's ranting and raging, I was asked whether any of it was directed at my son.  I had to answer No and I was told to call back if she started screaming at him.  So exposure to verbal abuse wasn't an issue in my county, it was whether verbal abuse was directed at the child.

What I'm saying is that sometimes it's hard to know what is actionable and what might not be.  But in this case it seems very compelling that action is appropriate, though of course we can't guarantee what the agencies will or won't do.  If nothing else, it at least lets the professionals know there are serious problems in the family.

If I had documentation that my ex had mistreated and lost control with my son, I very likely could have walked out with temporary custody.  But I was the one painted black and her threats were against me, an adult, and family court didn't care about poor adult behavior even though she had been arrested for Threat of DV a few days before, they didn't see actionable parenting behavior and so she walked out with temp custody.

As everyone is saying, this is a watershed moment in time.  If this hadn't been documented, you two could have shown up in divorce court at some future time and the judge might have granted your spouse temp custody simply because women typically get temp custody based (unspoken and unwritten) on her gender.  With this documentation, it's a different scenario, you have a good case to get protection for your children and yourself.  The only thing more compelling than a woman's gender to officials is whether there's been child abuse, neglect or endangerment.  Frankly, if you pass this by and don't act promptly, you may not get a 'gift horse' like this again.  It is VERY hard for fathers to overcome their gender and that fact that more mothers are considered the historical majority-time parent than fathers.

As some have remarked, it's not that you win your case, it's that the disordered spouse loses hers (or his).  I mention both genders because these acting-out disorders afflicts both genders.  She lost her temper, she was totally out of control, if you handle it properly, she can lose her case almost before it starts, saving you and your children extended agony, expense and time.

[livednlearned]

Not sure I spelled this out clearly in my last post, so just wanted to add this:

If you report the abuse, you may be subject to a less invasive type of investigation. CPS will try to figure out if the allegations are substantiated or false. Since the abuse can be substantiated, and you are reporting it, they will be more likely to view you as a competent, reliable adult with good judgment.

If the counselor reports child abuse, you may be subject to a much rougher type of investigation where both parents are subject to scrutiny. Since you can substantiate the abuse, and saw fit to record it, but did nothing, you have some explaining to do.

I'm assuming that you know the abuse reaches a level considered actionable -- (seems clear as day to me). You can't do nothing at this point. And if you discuss this in counseling, and your counselor is alarmed, it could trigger your wife's alarms and she might file a false allegation first against you.

A lot of senior members and new member have been down this road before. You have friends here who will help you think this through. Let us know what you need right now, and take some big deep breaths. You'll get through this.

[formflier]

Quick update.

Counseling was so so.  She verbally agreed to no physical discipline and a weak promise to be evaluated at some point in late June... . after I have yet another evaluation.

I asked for it in writing... . did not say "or else"... . but told her I feared for safety and that I was uncomfortable with this not being in writing.

She has broken word many times.

On way home (different cars)... . we stopped and and I implored her to put this in writing and commit to going for an evaluation tomorrow... with me.  We'll both go.  She patted my hand said there was no problem.

I called her from outside the door... . and implored her to reconsider... . that I loved her... . that I wanted to heal family but the refusal to be accountable for the committments was worrisome.  She again said there was NO issue here. 

I walked in and puked my guts out to DSS. 

I will have no way of knowing if our marriage counselor made the report as well.  If it was me... . I would.

I have been a mandatory reporter for years... . so I am aware.

I can't force anyone to do anything about this... . but my conscience is clear... . that I didn't keep a secret and I focused on my kids safety.

Lawyer and I had several talks.  Possible RO tomorrow... . he wants to keep it therapeutic... . a medical and non legal issue... . but... . realizes that this can not be allowed to fester.

Sigh... . thanks for the support.  Not sure if anyone will show up tonight or tomorrow.

Initial reaction from DSS is that this is clearly inappropriate discipline and supervision... . whether it rises to the next level depends on if marks found etc etc

I'm tired... . but I believe I have taken a correct step.  I need to keep centered and focused on next several days.

[Matt]

Wow - difficult situation, and lots of good inputs from everybody.  Sounds like you're getting good help both here and IRL (in real life) - the sheriff and your attorney - good to have helpful inputs from several people looking at it from different points of view.

I'm not an attorney, and nobody here can give you legal advice, but I'll add my two cents worth... .

First, while you're going through all this, don't forget to take good care of yourself - physically, emotionally, etc.  If you can find a counselor for yourself - not to "fix" any "problem" but just an experienced professional who you can talk to in confidence, that will help your stress level.  And close friends or family who you can count on to listen and give support.  Plus regular sleep and everyday cardiovascular exercise of some sort - it all adds up to good stress management so you can deal with all this stuff.

Second, on the legal stuff, you seem to be focused on involuntary commitment, which may be possible but I think that's probably not a realistic outcome until you have rock-solid evidence that her behavior is far, far outside what's normal.  I think there are some other, more realistic outcomes to protect you and your kids (some of which have been mentioned by others).

First might be temporary custody.  If you are all living in the same house, it might be possible to ask the court to give you temporary custody of the house and the kids, and make your wife live somewhere else for some period of time.  If she has family or someone else she can live with, and see the kids under supervision - most US cities have at least one company that provides that kind of supervision in situations like this.  You can ask for that temporarily while the court learns more.

Second, you might seek a restraining order - it might be called a TRO (temporary restraining order) or OOP (order of protection).  You don't have to prove anything, but show some evidence that your wife's behavior is risky for you and the kids, and ask for temporary protection while things are figured out.  It's pretty common where I live, but usually it's a woman asking for protection from a man, not a man asking for protection for himself and his kids.  Your lawyer should be able to tell you more.  I would act fast on this (and the previous idea - temporary custody) since delays will suggest the matter is not serious.

Third, I think it is an option to contact the police and/or CPS (child protective services - might be called something different where you live) to report child abuse.  This is a serious step to take, but if you believe the kids have been physically abused, it might be the right thing to do.  Think of it not as an attack on your wife, but as telling the truth and protecting the kids.  If you take this step, you must be 100% consistent from now til forever - you can't back down or change your story or you will never be believed again.  :)ecide if this is the right thing to do, and be completely committed to following through.

Finally, about evaluations... .

What I learned - I went through a divorce from my wife of 12 years, after she physically attacked me and accused me of assault - was that many "evaluations" are just a professional chatting with someone and then pulling a conclusion out of the air - nothing scientific about it, and the results are usually weak, which makes things better for the person who has the problem;  that is, she can then say "I was evaluated and the doctor said there was nothing wrong with me."  More harm than good.

What I think you want is for both parents to take objective psych evals.  I say both parents because that will seem fair and will show that you aren't afraid to be evaluated too.  You're more likely to get your motion approved if you say both.  "Objective" means exactly that - an objective instrument like a test you both take and which is then scored by someone (or some computer) you never meet - a blind scoring, not biased in any way.

I filed a motion like this, and the judge appointed a Ph.D. psychologist, who administered the MMPI-2 (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Index - something worth learning more about).  It enabled my wife to be diagnosed with "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD.  The diagnosis was supported by objective data - the MMPI-2 results - so it is more solid than any one person's opinion after just chatting with her.  (People with BPD can be charming and pleasant, and not all professionals can figure out a problem just by talking with someone;  in fact I don't know if any of them can.)

You need to be prepared for your own results being less than perfect, especially after years in an abusive environment.  Mine weren't perfect - no disorders but some stuff.  It's not a problem - just don't be defensive - don't deny anything - ask "What does this mean, and what can I do about it?" and then follow through with whatever is recommended.  The result will be that you look like a flawed person who is working to improve himself, and your wife will probably deny her results and look like someone with serious problems who won't take any steps to get better.

I suggested you find a counselor for yourself, and you might want to find one for the kids too, not to serve as a help to you in your conflict with your wife, but to be a resource for the kids.  They are going through a lot, and you can love them but you can't help them in the ways a professional can.

One more thought but I'll put it in another post... .

[Matt]

So... . about your short-term safety... .

You are living in a home with someone who has some sort of severe problem(s) - could be BPD or who knows what.  You aren't qualified or objective enough to diagnose her but you can keep in mind the behavior you've seen - not just aimed at the kids but aimed at you too - physical abuse, accusations, twisted perceptions, etc.

You are at high risk right now, in a number of ways.  Many of us have been physically attacked and/or accused of violence or threats.  Your wife has tip-toed up to that line but hasn't yet (I think) called the police and accused you of anything.

I think it's pretty likely she will do that at some point.  I can't say if it's 90% or 50/50 or 10% or what, but it's likely enough for you to take steps to protect yourself.

One thing you've already done is talk to a lawyer, but it's not clear to me if he has experience with situations like this.  Try mentioning the term "BPD" and see if he knows what that is.  Ask him about similar cases he has handled and see if he has any "war stories" that sound familiar.  If you decide he doesn't have experience with stuff like this, consider finding a family law attorney who does.

But... . even the best family law attorney may not be all you need.  You might want to also find a good criminal defense attorney - don't retain him since you haven't yet been charged with a crime, but ask his advice on how to avoid that.  He might tell you things like, don't sleep in the same room with her;  lock the door of whatever room you are in;  don't talk to her - only e-mail;  have your audio recorder on whenever she is home;  have your wallet and keys on you all the time, and an overnight bag in the trunk of your car;  etc.  Basically, assume that your wife is likely to physically attack you and then tell the police "He hit me first!", and if that happens, you will go to jail.

When a man is accused of DV (domestic violence) he is often considered guilty til proven innocent.  The police may remove you from the home, and charge you with crimes, in order to prevent someone from getting hurt;  the logic is, if the man isn't there, nobody will be hurt.  (Yes, it's stupid and unfair and unscientific and unconstitutional, but that's how they operate where I live and many other places.)

So... . you need to think through how to protect yourself from even a small chance that she might do that, and the only way to do it is probably to never be alone with her, without a non-family adult third party present.  Not an easy thing for a married man to accept, I know... .

[Grey Kitty]

I'm relieved that you are taking difficult steps, like contacting DSS yourself.

I'm glad you posted over here, and are hearing from senior folks here who are giving you sound advice. Fortunately for me, I have no direct experience in anything like this... . so I probably won't say much more on this thread.

All I can say is my heart goes out to you and your kids.

[formflier]

 

Right now we are all at DSS... . people are being interviewed.

My wife has called 911... once before we moved and twice since we have been here... . and the calls down here... . she just wanted to tell them about me... . I have not listened to the calls.

I am a senior public official... . really not trying to be to specific here... . but I am a very public person.  I have written proof she has threatened or insinuated that she will "out" me and affect my career.  "Wouldn't it be too bad if everyone found out about you... "

She has posted ridiculous theories on facebook... . then deleted them.  Claims they were never there... . I screen prints.

I will not know the outcome of tonight... . but I am not turning back.  More later

[GaGrl]

You may not be able to fully articulate your boundary, formalize, but I think you've found it and are holding true.

[formflier]

 

My goal is safety of kids.  

Secondary goal is to not get pushed aside by what I know is coming.

uBPDw has said that we are through... . I don't mess with her kids... . she won't let me get away with it.

She coached kids to "not spare daddy's feelings."  You guys better tell the truth or they will take you away from me... etc etc.

I have all of this recorded.  I mentioned several times I that I thought this was inappropriate... . she rebuffed that suggestion and go louder.

So... I will have to get results of tonight... . and call lawyer first thing... . but I understand the point that inaction will be seen as me saying this is OK... .  On the off chance that DSS says no big deal.    

I shouldn't prejudge what they will say... .

But I can't wait until last minute to consider things... . please keep advice coming.

I need to stay in the house... . yet be safe.

[Matt]

Keeping in mind that I'm not a lawyer... .

If you have evidence that she threatened you, that could be extortion - a crime.

Maybe another subject to discuss with your family law attorney, or maybe better yet with a criminal defense attorney - show them what you have and see if she could be charged with a crime.

I realize it is not your goal to accuse your wife of a crime, or even to see her prosecuted.  But when it comes time for your attorney and her attorney to work out a settlement, it may be easier to get one that is good for you and the kids if the alternative - that is, if there is no settlement - might include some risk for her, that she could be charged with a serious crime.

This may sound like an extreme strategy but if you handle it wisely it can work.  After I was divorced, I needed to move to a new town for work.  It was close to my ex's hometown and she had lived there before and liked it.  I proposed to move with the kids - we have shared custody - and I offered to pay her cost for moving, plus a little more.  She fought it - several sessions with a mediator - no progress.  So I told her - with the mediator present - that if we could not come to a settlement I would file for full custody, and I would have to disclose everything relevant, including some stuff that would have put her at risk of being charged with crimes.  She had committed a number of crimes and I would be obligated to disclose that information.  As soon as she heard that, she agreed to settle along the lines I had proposed several months earlier.

Not a gentle way to get to a settlement, but worth considering... .

[whirlpoollife]

It's horrendous what you are going through.

My heart goes out to you too. Stay strong.

[formflier]

 

Good information... . thanks and keep it coming

[catnap]

One thing to truly consider is that she views the children as objects/extensions of herself, not separate human beings. 

I am not an attorney, but I do think your best option is to get her removed from the home and see the kids under supervised visitation.  A separate therapist for the children would be a good idea. 

I do believe that she is seriously mentally ill and it is not safe for her to be around the children or you.

[formflier]

I understand and agree

One thing to truly consider is that she views the children as objects/extensions of herself, not separate human beings. 

I am not an attorney, but I do think your best option is to get her removed from the home and see the kids under supervised visitation.  A separate therapist for the children would be a good idea. 

I do believe that she is seriously mentally ill and it is not safe for her to be around the children or you.

[Matt]

I understand and agree

One thing to truly consider is that she views the children as objects/extensions of herself, not separate human beings. 

I am not an attorney, but I do think your best option is to get her removed from the home and see the kids under supervised visitation.  A separate therapist for the children would be a good idea. 

I do believe that she is seriously mentally ill and it is not safe for her to be around the children or you.

So the key is evidence and witnesses.

What evidence and witnesses do you have, or do you think you can gather?

[formflier]

 

This is bad.

DSS interviewed my kids and then informed my wife and I that I would have to leave the home.

Their were no individual talks with adults.  I informed them of my concerns for BPD and rage issues during discipline... . and they were not heeded.

I offered to listen to the recording of the actual incident and they said they have to protect the kids and go with their assessment of them. 

The temporary safety plan is for me to live with my parents.  No contact.

I implored them to put evaluations on the safety plan... they put down that we will comply with "counselors"... . they would not put down which one.

They stressed this is temporary.

I'm screwed... . my conscience is clear... . my heart is broken.

[Matt]

Wow - I'm so sorry you are going through this.  I've been there and I know it hurts.

Don't think this is the end.  This often happens at the beginning.  Your path to a better situation will be longer than you hoped but there is a path from here to there.

You need to make sure you have the right lawyer, and learn about how the process works where you live.  Lots of good ideas on this thread, but it all depends on how things work where you live - you need to figure out your best strategy and put it into action.

Find out all of your options - depositions, a Custody Evaluator, a Guardian Ad Litem, etc. - all the ideas discussed here plus others your lawyer may have.  Learn about all the options and figure out what actions you should take to get the right result in the end.

It will be a long, hard road.  Make sure you are taking care of yourself in every way.

Best wishes,

Matt

[ForeverDad]

uBPDw has said that we are through... . I don't mess with her kids... . she won't let me get away with it.

She coached kids to "not spare daddy's feelings."  You guys better tell the truth or they will take you away from me... etc etc.

I have all of this recorded.  I mentioned several times I that I thought this was inappropriate... . she rebuffed that suggestion and go louder.

Whose children are these?  Do some of them have a different father?  Or is this her entitlement?  I recall my Custody Evaluator wrote "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... . "

DSS interviewed my kids and then informed my wife and I that I would have to leave the home.

Their were no individual talks with adults.  I informed them of my concerns for BPD and rage issues during discipline... . and they were not heeded.

I offered to listen to the recording of the actual incident and they said they have to protect the kids and go with their assessment of them. 

The temporary safety plan is for me to live with my parents.  No contact.

I implored them to put evaluations on the safety plan... they put down that we will comply with "counselors"... . they would not put down which one.

They stressed this is temporary.

I'm screwed... . my conscience is clear... . my heart is broken.

Apparently the agency was following protocol, no claimed conclusions, just doing the immediate triage and separating the persons in conflict.

Were the older or adult children interviewed too?

That is one of the huge risks of staying too long.  The children are so deeply impacted, they can't decide for themselves what is reality or not.  Or perhaps it is that they've been trained for years to (1) protect her or "or else suffer the consequences".  Sadly, it may be easier for the children to 'protect' her than you since they've learned over years that her punishments are worse than your reactions and her emotional pressuring is stronger than yours.

Make doubly sure you have duplicate copies of your evidence in places she has no access.  At some point at least some of it will be needed.

What instructions did your lawyer give you yesterday?

The genie is unlikely to go back into the bottle, so now is the time to look forward, not back.  Get legal representation immediately.  Is the opportunity to get a restraining order past?  That's a matter for the legal experts now.  However, I would not be surprised that she will immediately file one against you.  Seriously, right now she will likely try to steamroller you while she feels in control.  Filing a RO or PO against you now would make sense to her.  So I would think that it's probably a matter of who files first, for Round Two.  If you do file, which is probably good assertive strategy, then in it you can request an in depth assessment of both parents as well as the children.  Also request that the children get counseling.

One complication is your work situation.  You'll have to do some damage control to limit the impact while she is doing the opposite.