May need to remove kids

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=226239.0


I'm going to try to get in my lawyers office first thing this morning.

[formflier]

My actual posting from the staying board... . there is some good feedback over there.  I think I have a safety plan for today


Well... . something else happened that I couldn't let go.  I'll try to be clear about what I think and what i saw and know.

I think that lots of kids were outside with Mommy working on things around the yard and playing.  Apparently a van stopped in the road and honked to alert people that our 1 year old was walking down the road.  I believe uBPDw then grabbed S12, D8, and S6 and got them inside the house and to the back bedroom... . as far away from my location in the house as possible. (that may... or may not have played into her thinking)  I was vaguely aware that something was going on... . my ears perked up to pay attention... . but at this point I didn't know what was going on... . I had been inside the entire time.

I hear a massive series of whacks... . and children start screaming.  Listen... . when I grew up... . I earned many a whipping... . I don't think I ever got one I didn't deserve.  I have listened to some big whacks land on my rear... and that of my buddies that were involved in whatever was I was getting paddled for.  What I heard from across the house rivaled anything I have ever heard in my life... . the screaming that I heard from the children was the worst I have ever heard... . ever... . and there have been some incidents in the past several months.

I click on my recorder on my phone as I'm heading down the hall.  I arrive in the room to see the belt being used... . the swing was being used from as high in the air as she could get her hand... . and then being brought down onto a child.  I am not sure if I prevented one of the three from being spanked... . or if I arrived as last one was getting spanked.  The recording is hard to listen to... . big whacks... . and screams of multiple children.  If I had video... . I think I would have something provable... . I may now.

She tried to get ahold of D8 and had to let go of S12 to get to her.  I stood in fron of D8 and prevented Mommy from touching her.  She went back and grabbed S12 and kept hugging him.

I keep repeating in as calm a voice as I could that I believed Mommy and I should leave the room and have a private conversation.  She kept ordering me out... . saying I was the bully... . saying I was out of control... . etc etc etc

She kept asking S12 if he wanted Daddy to leave.  If Daddy was the problem... . S12 never spoke... . never.  I tried to point out that he obviously didn't want to talk... she would tug his head over on her shoulder and caress his head... . kiss his forehead... . tell him it would be ok. 

She finally tells S12 that they would go talk on porch.  I followed.  She still had an agitated look on her face... although it was better... . after about a 30 minute standoff in the bedroom.

Similar discussions went on while on front porch.  "S12... raise your right hand if you want Daddy to leave... . raise your left hand if you want Mommy to leave... . raise both if you want us both to leave" (this was Mommy talking).  He didn't flinch.  All the while the stroking... . kissing... caressing was going on.

Another 38 minutes on the front porch and the temperture had gone down.  Her face seemed more relaxed.

The entire time S18 was hovering around... watching.  I stated to the entire group and addressed S12 specifically and said the situation looked calmer... . that I would be just inside with the window open if I was needed.  I went inside... . the entire group stayed out there for another 10 or 15 minutes before coming inside.

I approached uBPDw and asked if we could have a private conversation... . she said she was getting ready for a shower and was "too busy" to talk.  I expressed that I thought a conversation about parenting was more important than a shower.  She disagreed.  I asked when we could talk in private and she said "Well... we have our appointment tomorrow (marriage counseling)"  I asked if she would like to ride separately or together.  She said she wanted to drive separately.  I said I would see her at 3pm tomorrow.  She sort of grunted... and I walked away.


Whew... . I have listened to some of the recordings.  Very clear.  Very distressing.  BPD behavior is in full swing. 

Now:  Action plan... . this is obviously going to come up in counseling.  I have put on my sheet that I think we need to have an agreement of no more physical discipline until our marriage and parenting issues are sorted out. 

No idea where that is going to go in counseling... . but I will not stand by while beatings like that continue in the house.  Not going to happen... .   I need help figuring out effective ways to work on this.

I will be calling my lawyer first thing in morning. 


More in a bit.

[DoxieLover]

Oh my goodness!  Fortunately I have never been in a situation like that. It sounds horrible! All I can say is good luck and God bless you. I will pray for you and your children.   

[ForeverDad]

Yes, seek legal advice.  Not sure, it might be good to report it to CPS or even file a report with the police.  If the lawyer doesn't respond soon, you can even go to the court and file an Ex Parte motion to have the other spouse removed from the residence, the kids and yourself.  That would be a temporary restraining or protection order.  It would be for a few weeks since action is being taken without both parents' involvement, only long enough for both parents to appear before the judge and both have an opportunity to present the case.

Be aware that judges prefer a long term solutions.  Just asking for protection without some sort of long term solution (legal separation or divorce) is not a good solution since your spouse may be able to fly under the court's radar long enough to have the RO or PO eventually dismissed and then your leverage is gone.

Frankly, if you're pondering when to file for divorce and haven't done so yet, this is a powerful time to file and possibly even start off with temporary custody.

Note:  Legal Separation is an option that few if any use here and and doesn't make a clean end to the marriage.

[Waddams]

i read this thread, and the one linked... . as for removing kids, I'd go the other way and explore a restraining order to remove your BPDw from the house.  

I hate to even think of this, but your 17 and 18 year olds - how are they doing through all this?  and would they give testimony to support your recordings and even expand on things/incidents that didn't get recorded?  Give a bigger picture context that supports your case?  It's a horrible place to put your kids in, but at the same time the younger kids need protection from this stuff.  It's not about taking sides for you or your BPDw, it's about taking the younger kids sides first.

Just remember, the filing for a restraining order and to have her removed from the home, it's the nuclear option.  You can't ever go back on it, and you'll be arch enemy #1 forever for the BPDw afterwards.  If you file it, it's the end of the marriage.  You'll need to progress to divorce in very short order, and never reconsider.  If you do, she'll find a way to make you pay.

And FD's point about reporting it to CPS or the police is a good one too.  Maybe a trip to the doctor to get the kids checked out.  If they've got bruises/marks from the beating, you need to get it documented by 3rd party professionals.  Doctors and police reports combined with the recording will make pretty strong evidence that she hurt the kids.

[formflier]

All good stuff.  Keep the information coming.

I understand this is nuclear option... . if it comes to that.  But... . one way or another... . things will change in this house... . if it takes a nuke to do it... . then that is it.

Not much time right now... but good talk with laywer and with Sheriff.  Opinion is strong that moves must be made to protect the kids.  There is still some debate about exactly what to do.

Couple hours to sort this out.

[catnap]

Do you think she is capable of not using physical punishment even if she promises?  My thoughts are it is easy to promises and agree, but will she take it seriously? 

The incident you are describing sounds horrific.   

[ForeverDad]

BPD is an emotion dysregulation disorder.  When her emotions are high, she's not listening.  Reasoning won't work with someone not only entitled and with black or white thinking but also ranting and raging.  There is no 'quick fix' where it will never happen again.  That's why promises will mean little.

They're right about never going back to the life before.  Or at least if she doesn't get into and positively respond to intensive long term therapy.  In my case, my ex threatened "I will kill you!"  I called 911 and the police came.  She did not respond well, she was beyond angry at me that I raised/countered her conflict to a higher level, police involvement, and it created a divide that was never healed.

It would be very difficult to leave with the children.  Odds are the kids will stay in the home, so you should too.  (Frankly, she will try to get you forced out, knowing that then she'd probably get the kids, even despite her behaviors.  So be aware and beware.)

[Boss302]

I never had to deal with this kind of garbage so I'm not sure what advice to give you, but my first inclination would be to set a very clear boundary that you will have zero percent tolerance for even suspected abuse, and that if you suspect it again, you're gathering up the kids, taking them to a neighbor's house, and calling 911. Leave it at that. No drama, no arguments, no discussion. Just "do it again and you'll have the cops to deal with, not me."

If you have an attorney, now's the time for a consultation.

Also, if there's abuse involved here, don't be shocked if you end up on the other end of the accusing finger. BPDs like to "spin" their failures onto other people, and they WILL use their children as tools in this.

I wish you good luck here.

[ForeverDad]

Also, if there's abuse involved here, don't be shocked if you end up on the other end of the accusing finger. BPDs like to "spin" their failures onto other people, and they WILL use their children as tools in this.

As happened with me, I could count on new allegations shortly before upcoming hearing dates or after my ex had made some huge blunder.  For example, I recall the time she raged at the pediatrician's staff and the pediatrician then 'fired' her by withdrawing services from our son.  Within a week or so she made a child abuse allegation trying to make me look worse than her.  It failed of course, it was unsubstantiated, but it served its purpose, it muddied the water, so to speak, so that afterward her raging incident was mostly ignored.  You see, her getting 'fired' did not rise to the level of CPS investigation but her allegation against me of child abuse did.  In the end, since she had temp custody at the time, she got to choose the new pediatrician.  Almost a reward, certainly not consequences.

Reminder:  Officialdom mostly doesn't care about one disorder or another.  Unless she has been officially diagnosed with BPD, don't use that label.  Focus on the behaviors.  It's all about the behaviors.  Sorry, a label just from you is virtually meaningless, don't try to Play Doctor on your own.  Put the behaviors and behavior patterns front and center.

[Boss302]

Also, if there's abuse involved here, don't be shocked if you end up on the other end of the accusing finger. BPDs like to "spin" their failures onto other people, and they WILL use their children as tools in this.

As happened with me, I could count on new allegations shortly before upcoming hearing dates or after my ex had made some huge blunder.  For example, I recall the time she raged at the pediatrician's staff and the pediatrician then 'fired' her by withdrawing services from our son.  Within a week or so she made a child abuse allegation trying to make me look worse than her.  It failed of course, it was unsubstantiated, but it served its purpose, it muddied the water, so to speak, so that afterward her raging incident was mostly ignored.  You see, her getting 'fired' did not rise to the level of CPS investigation but her allegation against me of child abuse did.  In the end, since she had temp custody at the time, she got to choose the new pediatrician.  Almost a reward, certainly not consequences.

Reminder:  Officialdom mostly doesn't care about one disorder or another.  Unless she has been officially diagnosed with BPD, don't use that label.  Focus on the behaviors.  It's all about the behaviors.  Sorry, a label just from you is virtually meaningless, don't try to Play Doctor on your own.  Put the behaviors and behavior patterns front and center.

These people ALL do the same stupid things! My BPDx was put in charge of mental health issues for the kids (talk about the blind leading the blind!), and has no car. She stopped taking D13 to her therapist in March because of "concerns" about the practice. We had a nice setup there - it was close to home, I could take the kids if I got enough advance notice, and the insurance situation was fine, so I was puzzled about why she wouldn't take her back there.

Turns out the real reason was that she blew up at at the secretary in the office and couldn't handle showing her face there again. So instead of the nice, handy office that takes our insurance, and is affordable, she picked out a therapist that's a LONG way from the suburb we live in, that doesn't take insurance... . and did I mention she can't drive? Oh, and yeah... . I had to threaten BPDx with court if she wouldn't disclose the new therapist's contact info. Not surprisingly, the new therapist won't return my phone calls. Guess what happened there? 

She asked me to start taking D13, and I said no. This is her decision and she'll have to make sure everything gets taken care of. If it doesn't, I'll go back and have this taken away from her.

In the end, sometimes you have to let these people FAIL epically.

[livednlearned]

I hear a massive series of whacks... . and children start screaming.  Listen... . when I grew up... . I earned many a whipping... . I don't think I ever got one I didn't deserve.  I have listened to some big whacks land on my rear... and that of my buddies that were involved in whatever was I was getting paddled for.  What I heard from across the house rivaled anything I have ever heard in my life... . the screaming that I heard from the children was the worst I have ever heard... . ever... . and there have been some incidents in the past several months.

You were whipped as a child? Formflier, that is heartbreaking. Almost as heartbreaking is the idea that you felt you deserved it.  :'(

I click on my recorder on my phone as I'm heading down the hall.  I arrive in the room to see the belt being used... . the swing was being used from as high in the air as she could get her hand... . and then being brought down onto a child.  I am not sure if I prevented one of the three from being spanked... . or if I arrived as last one was getting spanked.  The recording is hard to listen to... . big whacks... . and screams of multiple children.  If I had video... . I think I would have something provable... . I may now.

Are you in a state where recording is legal? Even if you are not, a guardian ad litem or someone from CPS will likely want to hear the recording. If your older kids can confirm that the incident happened, especially the 18 year old, then that will help.

She tried to get ahold of D8 and had to let go of S12 to get to her.  I stood in fron of D8 and prevented Mommy from touching her.  She went back and grabbed S12 and kept hugging him.

I keep repeating in as calm a voice as I could that I believed Mommy and I should leave the room and have a private conversation.  She kept ordering me out... . saying I was the bully... . saying I was out of control... . etc etc etc

This sounds like psychosis.

I approached uBPDw and asked if we could have a private conversation... . she said she was getting ready for a shower and was "too busy" to talk.  I expressed that I thought a conversation about parenting was more important than a shower.  She disagreed.  I asked when we could talk in private and she said "Well... we have our appointment tomorrow (marriage counseling)"  I asked if she would like to ride separately or together.  She said she wanted to drive separately.  I said I would see her at 3pm tomorrow.  She sort of grunted... and I walked away.

You're entering really serious territory here and need to think this through carefully. A counselor is obligated by law to report child abuse -- which is the appropriate thing to do based on what you described. It's possible, if you haven't been doing anything to prevent the abuse, and aren't actively preparing to protect them, that the state could temporarily remove the kids from your care. Whatever you say to your counselor can be subpoenaed. Counseling for therapy is effectively over, and you're now heading straight into the lion's den where you have to start thinking about how a judge or third-parties sees the situation. What you do in the next 48 hours is going to matter more than the recording. You have to act like someone who has the kids' best interests in mind, and that means reporting the abuse, or physically protecting the kids. In court, you will run the risk of looking negligent.

You need to talk to a lawyer immediately and find out how things will play out if you go to that counseling session tomorrow. Whatever you do, it's important that you recognize how serious this is. I'm concerned that you can't see it clearly because of the abuse you experienced as a child. The state isn't going to wait until you see the connection, they're going to think you aren't capable of caring for the kids if you don't recognize the level of abuse going on. Part of you sees it, but you think you can manage it. You can't.

Formflier, a lot of people who end up in BPD relationships experienced abuse as a child. I did. It makes it very hard to see clearly what is normal and not normal. We tend to have the ability to tolerate higher levels of unacceptable abuse. I was in such thick FOG from my own upbringing that I didn't even recognize the abuse.

I understand that this is incredibly blunt, but I'm saying to you what my lawyer said to me: If you don't recognize how serious this is, you are in for the ride of your life through the legal system. You have to wake up.

Write an email to your lawyer tonight, or if anyone is still in the office, make an urgent call today. Explain that your wife has been violent with the kids, and that you need to protect them immediately. Ask whether you should attend counseling tomorrow from a legal perspective, and if so, what will happen if you do or don't report the abuse, and what the legal obligations are of the counselor to report it. If the counselor reports the abuse before you have filed something, what are the ramifications. Ask if the recordings are admissible in court, and what you should do to protect the kids from your wife. 

I'm so sorry formflier, for you, for your family.

Your wife is seriously ill. My ex suffers from psychosis as well. It's a sickness that devastates.

[ForeverDad]

I agree with LnL's point that you need to be seen as clearly having the children's interests and safety as top priority.  This is not something to negotiate over.  What makes it hard for me is that courts, agencies and other professionals have to decide whether something is actionable or not.  And so I don't trust myself to know how professionals would see what I think is actionable.  Don't you doubt yourself.  Speak up for the children.  (Next week or next month might be too late, it won't have the same urgency.  I called 911 when my ex threatened my life.  If I had called a month later they wouldn't have sent emergency responders out, I would have been told, "Call back when it is an emergency."  Yes, it will be seen as more urgent and actionable if you report it and act sooner rather than later.)

In family court, after separation but before I filed for divorce I testified that my ex kicked me and hit me on the head while I was driving.  That protection motion was dismissed.  (Ex withdrew her motion.)  Clearly, beating on a spouse who was driving wasn't seen as an actionable issue months later.  I guess the court set a high bar there to jump over and I failed.

When I called CPS - twice in 2005 - stating that my son was being affected by then-spouse's ranting and raging, I was asked whether any of it was directed at my son.  I had to answer No and I was told to call back if she started screaming at him.  So exposure to verbal abuse wasn't an issue in my county, it was whether verbal abuse was directed at the child.

What I'm saying is that sometimes it's hard to know what is actionable and what might not be.  But in this case it seems very compelling that action is appropriate, though of course we can't guarantee what the agencies will or won't do.  If nothing else, it at least lets the professionals know there are serious problems in the family.

If I had documentation that my ex had mistreated and lost control with my son, I very likely could have walked out with temporary custody.  But I was the one painted black and her threats were against me, an adult, and family court didn't care about poor adult behavior even though she had been arrested for Threat of DV a few days before, they didn't see actionable parenting behavior and so she walked out with temp custody.

As everyone is saying, this is a watershed moment in time.  If this hadn't been documented, you two could have shown up in divorce court at some future time and the judge might have granted your spouse temp custody simply because women typically get temp custody based (unspoken and unwritten) on her gender.  With this documentation, it's a different scenario, you have a good case to get protection for your children and yourself.  The only thing more compelling than a woman's gender to officials is whether there's been child abuse, neglect or endangerment.  Frankly, if you pass this by and don't act promptly, you may not get a 'gift horse' like this again.  It is VERY hard for fathers to overcome their gender and that fact that more mothers are considered the historical majority-time parent than fathers.

As some have remarked, it's not that you win your case, it's that the disordered spouse loses hers (or his).  I mention both genders because these acting-out disorders afflicts both genders.  She lost her temper, she was totally out of control, if you handle it properly, she can lose her case almost before it starts, saving you and your children extended agony, expense and time.

[livednlearned]

Not sure I spelled this out clearly in my last post, so just wanted to add this:

If you report the abuse, you may be subject to a less invasive type of investigation. CPS will try to figure out if the allegations are substantiated or false. Since the abuse can be substantiated, and you are reporting it, they will be more likely to view you as a competent, reliable adult with good judgment.

If the counselor reports child abuse, you may be subject to a much rougher type of investigation where both parents are subject to scrutiny. Since you can substantiate the abuse, and saw fit to record it, but did nothing, you have some explaining to do.

I'm assuming that you know the abuse reaches a level considered actionable -- (seems clear as day to me). You can't do nothing at this point. And if you discuss this in counseling, and your counselor is alarmed, it could trigger your wife's alarms and she might file a false allegation first against you.

A lot of senior members and new member have been down this road before. You have friends here who will help you think this through. Let us know what you need right now, and take some big deep breaths. You'll get through this.

[formflier]

Quick update.

Counseling was so so.  She verbally agreed to no physical discipline and a weak promise to be evaluated at some point in late June... . after I have yet another evaluation.

I asked for it in writing... . did not say "or else"... . but told her I feared for safety and that I was uncomfortable with this not being in writing.

She has broken word many times.

On way home (different cars)... . we stopped and and I implored her to put this in writing and commit to going for an evaluation tomorrow... with me.  We'll both go.  She patted my hand said there was no problem.

I called her from outside the door... . and implored her to reconsider... . that I loved her... . that I wanted to heal family but the refusal to be accountable for the committments was worrisome.  She again said there was NO issue here. 

I walked in and puked my guts out to DSS. 

I will have no way of knowing if our marriage counselor made the report as well.  If it was me... . I would.

I have been a mandatory reporter for years... . so I am aware.

I can't force anyone to do anything about this... . but my conscience is clear... . that I didn't keep a secret and I focused on my kids safety.

Lawyer and I had several talks.  Possible RO tomorrow... . he wants to keep it therapeutic... . a medical and non legal issue... . but... . realizes that this can not be allowed to fester.

Sigh... . thanks for the support.  Not sure if anyone will show up tonight or tomorrow.

Initial reaction from DSS is that this is clearly inappropriate discipline and supervision... . whether it rises to the next level depends on if marks found etc etc

I'm tired... . but I believe I have taken a correct step.  I need to keep centered and focused on next several days.

[Matt]

Wow - difficult situation, and lots of good inputs from everybody.  Sounds like you're getting good help both here and IRL (in real life) - the sheriff and your attorney - good to have helpful inputs from several people looking at it from different points of view.

I'm not an attorney, and nobody here can give you legal advice, but I'll add my two cents worth... .

First, while you're going through all this, don't forget to take good care of yourself - physically, emotionally, etc.  If you can find a counselor for yourself - not to "fix" any "problem" but just an experienced professional who you can talk to in confidence, that will help your stress level.  And close friends or family who you can count on to listen and give support.  Plus regular sleep and everyday cardiovascular exercise of some sort - it all adds up to good stress management so you can deal with all this stuff.

Second, on the legal stuff, you seem to be focused on involuntary commitment, which may be possible but I think that's probably not a realistic outcome until you have rock-solid evidence that her behavior is far, far outside what's normal.  I think there are some other, more realistic outcomes to protect you and your kids (some of which have been mentioned by others).

First might be temporary custody.  If you are all living in the same house, it might be possible to ask the court to give you temporary custody of the house and the kids, and make your wife live somewhere else for some period of time.  If she has family or someone else she can live with, and see the kids under supervision - most US cities have at least one company that provides that kind of supervision in situations like this.  You can ask for that temporarily while the court learns more.

Second, you might seek a restraining order - it might be called a TRO (temporary restraining order) or OOP (order of protection).  You don't have to prove anything, but show some evidence that your wife's behavior is risky for you and the kids, and ask for temporary protection while things are figured out.  It's pretty common where I live, but usually it's a woman asking for protection from a man, not a man asking for protection for himself and his kids.  Your lawyer should be able to tell you more.  I would act fast on this (and the previous idea - temporary custody) since delays will suggest the matter is not serious.

Third, I think it is an option to contact the police and/or CPS (child protective services - might be called something different where you live) to report child abuse.  This is a serious step to take, but if you believe the kids have been physically abused, it might be the right thing to do.  Think of it not as an attack on your wife, but as telling the truth and protecting the kids.  If you take this step, you must be 100% consistent from now til forever - you can't back down or change your story or you will never be believed again.  :)ecide if this is the right thing to do, and be completely committed to following through.

Finally, about evaluations... .

What I learned - I went through a divorce from my wife of 12 years, after she physically attacked me and accused me of assault - was that many "evaluations" are just a professional chatting with someone and then pulling a conclusion out of the air - nothing scientific about it, and the results are usually weak, which makes things better for the person who has the problem;  that is, she can then say "I was evaluated and the doctor said there was nothing wrong with me."  More harm than good.

What I think you want is for both parents to take objective psych evals.  I say both parents because that will seem fair and will show that you aren't afraid to be evaluated too.  You're more likely to get your motion approved if you say both.  "Objective" means exactly that - an objective instrument like a test you both take and which is then scored by someone (or some computer) you never meet - a blind scoring, not biased in any way.

I filed a motion like this, and the judge appointed a Ph.D. psychologist, who administered the MMPI-2 (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Index - something worth learning more about).  It enabled my wife to be diagnosed with "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD.  The diagnosis was supported by objective data - the MMPI-2 results - so it is more solid than any one person's opinion after just chatting with her.  (People with BPD can be charming and pleasant, and not all professionals can figure out a problem just by talking with someone;  in fact I don't know if any of them can.)

You need to be prepared for your own results being less than perfect, especially after years in an abusive environment.  Mine weren't perfect - no disorders but some stuff.  It's not a problem - just don't be defensive - don't deny anything - ask "What does this mean, and what can I do about it?" and then follow through with whatever is recommended.  The result will be that you look like a flawed person who is working to improve himself, and your wife will probably deny her results and look like someone with serious problems who won't take any steps to get better.

I suggested you find a counselor for yourself, and you might want to find one for the kids too, not to serve as a help to you in your conflict with your wife, but to be a resource for the kids.  They are going through a lot, and you can love them but you can't help them in the ways a professional can.

One more thought but I'll put it in another post... .

[Matt]

So... . about your short-term safety... .

You are living in a home with someone who has some sort of severe problem(s) - could be BPD or who knows what.  You aren't qualified or objective enough to diagnose her but you can keep in mind the behavior you've seen - not just aimed at the kids but aimed at you too - physical abuse, accusations, twisted perceptions, etc.

You are at high risk right now, in a number of ways.  Many of us have been physically attacked and/or accused of violence or threats.  Your wife has tip-toed up to that line but hasn't yet (I think) called the police and accused you of anything.

I think it's pretty likely she will do that at some point.  I can't say if it's 90% or 50/50 or 10% or what, but it's likely enough for you to take steps to protect yourself.

One thing you've already done is talk to a lawyer, but it's not clear to me if he has experience with situations like this.  Try mentioning the term "BPD" and see if he knows what that is.  Ask him about similar cases he has handled and see if he has any "war stories" that sound familiar.  If you decide he doesn't have experience with stuff like this, consider finding a family law attorney who does.

But... . even the best family law attorney may not be all you need.  You might want to also find a good criminal defense attorney - don't retain him since you haven't yet been charged with a crime, but ask his advice on how to avoid that.  He might tell you things like, don't sleep in the same room with her;  lock the door of whatever room you are in;  don't talk to her - only e-mail;  have your audio recorder on whenever she is home;  have your wallet and keys on you all the time, and an overnight bag in the trunk of your car;  etc.  Basically, assume that your wife is likely to physically attack you and then tell the police "He hit me first!", and if that happens, you will go to jail.

When a man is accused of DV (domestic violence) he is often considered guilty til proven innocent.  The police may remove you from the home, and charge you with crimes, in order to prevent someone from getting hurt;  the logic is, if the man isn't there, nobody will be hurt.  (Yes, it's stupid and unfair and unscientific and unconstitutional, but that's how they operate where I live and many other places.)

So... . you need to think through how to protect yourself from even a small chance that she might do that, and the only way to do it is probably to never be alone with her, without a non-family adult third party present.  Not an easy thing for a married man to accept, I know... .

[Grey Kitty]

I'm relieved that you are taking difficult steps, like contacting DSS yourself.

I'm glad you posted over here, and are hearing from senior folks here who are giving you sound advice. Fortunately for me, I have no direct experience in anything like this... . so I probably won't say much more on this thread.

All I can say is my heart goes out to you and your kids.

[formflier]

 

Right now we are all at DSS... . people are being interviewed.

My wife has called 911... once before we moved and twice since we have been here... . and the calls down here... . she just wanted to tell them about me... . I have not listened to the calls.

I am a senior public official... . really not trying to be to specific here... . but I am a very public person.  I have written proof she has threatened or insinuated that she will "out" me and affect my career.  "Wouldn't it be too bad if everyone found out about you... "

She has posted ridiculous theories on facebook... . then deleted them.  Claims they were never there... . I screen prints.

I will not know the outcome of tonight... . but I am not turning back.  More later

[GaGrl]

You may not be able to fully articulate your boundary, formalize, but I think you've found it and are holding true.

[formflier]

 

My goal is safety of kids.  

Secondary goal is to not get pushed aside by what I know is coming.

uBPDw has said that we are through... . I don't mess with her kids... . she won't let me get away with it.

She coached kids to "not spare daddy's feelings."  You guys better tell the truth or they will take you away from me... etc etc.

I have all of this recorded.  I mentioned several times I that I thought this was inappropriate... . she rebuffed that suggestion and go louder.

So... I will have to get results of tonight... . and call lawyer first thing... . but I understand the point that inaction will be seen as me saying this is OK... .  On the off chance that DSS says no big deal.    

I shouldn't prejudge what they will say... .

But I can't wait until last minute to consider things... . please keep advice coming.

I need to stay in the house... . yet be safe.

[Matt]

Keeping in mind that I'm not a lawyer... .

If you have evidence that she threatened you, that could be extortion - a crime.

Maybe another subject to discuss with your family law attorney, or maybe better yet with a criminal defense attorney - show them what you have and see if she could be charged with a crime.

I realize it is not your goal to accuse your wife of a crime, or even to see her prosecuted.  But when it comes time for your attorney and her attorney to work out a settlement, it may be easier to get one that is good for you and the kids if the alternative - that is, if there is no settlement - might include some risk for her, that she could be charged with a serious crime.

This may sound like an extreme strategy but if you handle it wisely it can work.  After I was divorced, I needed to move to a new town for work.  It was close to my ex's hometown and she had lived there before and liked it.  I proposed to move with the kids - we have shared custody - and I offered to pay her cost for moving, plus a little more.  She fought it - several sessions with a mediator - no progress.  So I told her - with the mediator present - that if we could not come to a settlement I would file for full custody, and I would have to disclose everything relevant, including some stuff that would have put her at risk of being charged with crimes.  She had committed a number of crimes and I would be obligated to disclose that information.  As soon as she heard that, she agreed to settle along the lines I had proposed several months earlier.

Not a gentle way to get to a settlement, but worth considering... .

[whirlpoollife]

It's horrendous what you are going through.

My heart goes out to you too. Stay strong.

[formflier]

 

Good information... . thanks and keep it coming

[catnap]

One thing to truly consider is that she views the children as objects/extensions of herself, not separate human beings. 

I am not an attorney, but I do think your best option is to get her removed from the home and see the kids under supervised visitation.  A separate therapist for the children would be a good idea. 

I do believe that she is seriously mentally ill and it is not safe for her to be around the children or you.

[formflier]

I understand and agree

One thing to truly consider is that she views the children as objects/extensions of herself, not separate human beings. 

I am not an attorney, but I do think your best option is to get her removed from the home and see the kids under supervised visitation.  A separate therapist for the children would be a good idea. 

I do believe that she is seriously mentally ill and it is not safe for her to be around the children or you.

[Matt]

I understand and agree

One thing to truly consider is that she views the children as objects/extensions of herself, not separate human beings. 

I am not an attorney, but I do think your best option is to get her removed from the home and see the kids under supervised visitation.  A separate therapist for the children would be a good idea. 

I do believe that she is seriously mentally ill and it is not safe for her to be around the children or you.

So the key is evidence and witnesses.

What evidence and witnesses do you have, or do you think you can gather?

[formflier]

 

This is bad.

DSS interviewed my kids and then informed my wife and I that I would have to leave the home.

Their were no individual talks with adults.  I informed them of my concerns for BPD and rage issues during discipline... . and they were not heeded.

I offered to listen to the recording of the actual incident and they said they have to protect the kids and go with their assessment of them. 

The temporary safety plan is for me to live with my parents.  No contact.

I implored them to put evaluations on the safety plan... they put down that we will comply with "counselors"... . they would not put down which one.

They stressed this is temporary.

I'm screwed... . my conscience is clear... . my heart is broken.

[Matt]

Wow - I'm so sorry you are going through this.  I've been there and I know it hurts.

Don't think this is the end.  This often happens at the beginning.  Your path to a better situation will be longer than you hoped but there is a path from here to there.

You need to make sure you have the right lawyer, and learn about how the process works where you live.  Lots of good ideas on this thread, but it all depends on how things work where you live - you need to figure out your best strategy and put it into action.

Find out all of your options - depositions, a Custody Evaluator, a Guardian Ad Litem, etc. - all the ideas discussed here plus others your lawyer may have.  Learn about all the options and figure out what actions you should take to get the right result in the end.

It will be a long, hard road.  Make sure you are taking care of yourself in every way.

Best wishes,

Matt

[ForeverDad]

uBPDw has said that we are through... . I don't mess with her kids... . she won't let me get away with it.

She coached kids to "not spare daddy's feelings."  You guys better tell the truth or they will take you away from me... etc etc.

I have all of this recorded.  I mentioned several times I that I thought this was inappropriate... . she rebuffed that suggestion and go louder.

Whose children are these?  Do some of them have a different father?  Or is this her entitlement?  I recall my Custody Evaluator wrote "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... . "

DSS interviewed my kids and then informed my wife and I that I would have to leave the home.

Their were no individual talks with adults.  I informed them of my concerns for BPD and rage issues during discipline... . and they were not heeded.

I offered to listen to the recording of the actual incident and they said they have to protect the kids and go with their assessment of them. 

The temporary safety plan is for me to live with my parents.  No contact.

I implored them to put evaluations on the safety plan... they put down that we will comply with "counselors"... . they would not put down which one.

They stressed this is temporary.

I'm screwed... . my conscience is clear... . my heart is broken.

Apparently the agency was following protocol, no claimed conclusions, just doing the immediate triage and separating the persons in conflict.

Were the older or adult children interviewed too?

That is one of the huge risks of staying too long.  The children are so deeply impacted, they can't decide for themselves what is reality or not.  Or perhaps it is that they've been trained for years to (1) protect her or "or else suffer the consequences".  Sadly, it may be easier for the children to 'protect' her than you since they've learned over years that her punishments are worse than your reactions and her emotional pressuring is stronger than yours.

Make doubly sure you have duplicate copies of your evidence in places she has no access.  At some point at least some of it will be needed.

What instructions did your lawyer give you yesterday?

The genie is unlikely to go back into the bottle, so now is the time to look forward, not back.  Get legal representation immediately.  Is the opportunity to get a restraining order past?  That's a matter for the legal experts now.  However, I would not be surprised that she will immediately file one against you.  Seriously, right now she will likely try to steamroller you while she feels in control.  Filing a RO or PO against you now would make sense to her.  So I would think that it's probably a matter of who files first, for Round Two.  If you do file, which is probably good assertive strategy, then in it you can request an in depth assessment of both parents as well as the children.  Also request that the children get counseling.

One complication is your work situation.  You'll have to do some damage control to limit the impact while she is doing the opposite.

[formflier]

Yep... . I have backups... . will make more.

Instructions for lawyer are to call first thing and discuss how it went.

Very frustrated... . but I still believe I was right to try.  I'm not going to quit...

Wow - I'm so sorry you are going through this.  I've been there and I know it hurts.

Don't think this is the end.  This often happens at the beginning.  Your path to a better situation will be longer than you hoped but there is a path from here to there.

You need to make sure you have the right lawyer, and learn about how the process works where you live.  Lots of good ideas on this thread, but it all depends on how things work where you live - you need to figure out your best strategy and put it into action.

Find out all of your options - depositions, a Custody Evaluator, a Guardian Ad Litem, etc. - all the ideas discussed here plus others your lawyer may have.  Learn about all the options and figure out what actions you should take to get the right result in the end.

It will be a long, hard road.  Make sure you are taking care of yourself in every way.

Best wishes,

Matt

[Boss302]

This is bad.

DSS interviewed my kids and then informed my wife and I that I would have to leave the home.

Their were no individual talks with adults.  I informed them of my concerns for BPD and rage issues during discipline... . and they were not heeded.

I offered to listen to the recording of the actual incident and they said they have to protect the kids and go with their assessment of them. 

The temporary safety plan is for me to live with my parents.  No contact.

I implored them to put evaluations on the safety plan... they put down that we will comply with "counselors"... . they would not put down which one.

They stressed this is temporary.

I'm screwed... . my conscience is clear... . my heart is broken.

I am so sorry this happened. Unfortunately, you learned something important about the family law "system": the good guy doesn't always win all the battles. The important thing is that you did the right thing. And you shouldn't quit, even though right now it probably feels like the whole "system" has just flipped you and your children off.

Let me tell you my story.

In the case of my divorce, the issue wasn't outright abuse - it was neglect and utter failure to parent correctly. BPDx got temporary full custody and let the kids live in utter filth, fed them pizza and fast food five nights a week (learned this when her bank records were subpoenaed), pulled my D17 out of her freshman year of high school so she could be "homeschooled" (basically she lost a year and a half of her education), and would pull my D13 out of school for literally weeks at a time over things like sick stomachs. At the time, she was getting $2100 a month in alimony and child support, but never paid a dime of rent. This left me absolutely destitute.

Eventually the courts (and social services) caught on to what was happening, and after she was evicted from two homes in a six month span, I ended up with primary custody in February 2012, and kept it when the divorce was finalized. I also got primary decision making over medical, dental and educational issues. Net result: their home life is now stable, and they're both doing well in school (D17 just graduated high school ON TIME, which was miraculous). I even got a break on her support because the kids are with me pretty much full time.

Sometimes this does work out. Things CAN get better. You have to keep faith. Keep in mind that BPDs can be charming and manipulative, and are outstanding at playing the victim, but they're also unstable, and often times, that's their undoing. It was in the case of my ex. Basically, because of all the presumptions the "system" made about me up front, I had to let her fail, and watch my kids fail for a while as well. But I was there to help them pick up the pieces, and they know it. They know who the stable parent is now.

But during all this, your worst enemy will not be your wife. No, YOU will be your worst enemy. Right now, you're undoubtedly enraged by what's happened. What father wouldn't be? I sure was, and my case didn't involve physical abuse. Not only are your kids at risk, "the system" has told you that YOU are the problem and have to leave. That's beyond infuriating, and it's enough to put any man into Chuck Norris mode.

You have to resist that. You cannot show anger to any of these social worker types, because they're predisposed to judge an angry man as a dangerous man, even if he has every reason to be angry. In my case, we had a CFI, and she was nice enough to tell the judge that she was "scared of my anger issues," when in fact, my anger issues were all based on my BPDx's behavior, which was DEPLORABLE, and she never bothered to ask herself why. All she saw was that I had a penis and was angry, and that was that. She actually told my BPDx the day of the hearing that she should refile for custody in six months. Incredible.

I had every right to be angry. So do you. But you need to keep that under control 100%.

I'd highly suggest finding a therapist, if you don't have one already. Make sure you have a good support system for what you will be going through here. It will be hell.

But in the end, you can help your kids.

[Waddams]

I'm sorry how this has worked out - they take a bunch of statements from a bunch of scared kids, don't bother to even listen to, much less consider, the actual evidence, and make horrible decisions. 

Every story that comes through here makes me think it's better to record, gather evidence, then head straight for an ex parte restraining order to start off.  Talk to the judge, play recordings, show evidence, etc.  Take the kids to the doc yourself and get the marks documented quick enough that it's obvious they came from the incident in the recording.  Then take the medical reports with you to the judge.  The advantage is it's just you and the judge, no kids, no disordered spouse, no people from agencies, etc.  Nobody to muddy the waters.  The judge issues the ex parte order, then the hearing happens, and the evidence speaks for itself.

The worst that happens is if the judge doesn't issue the ex parte order, or if it's not approved at the hearing.  Then at least you're not put out of your house, and you have a record you can show of trying to act responsibly in the situation.

If approved and the restraining order is in place, THEN involve other authorities if you have to.  Then you have an order of protection from the court that they can't ignore.

Let us know what your L tells you next.  Also, don't be afraid to go talk to a few more lawyers.  Lots of family law lawyers have not had to deal with high conflict cases of this nature.  There will be someone, however, in your locality that has.  You just need to find them, and fast.   

[ForeverDad]

Every story that comes through here makes me think it's better to record, gather evidence, then head straight for an ex parte restraining order to start off.  Talk to the judge, play recordings, show evidence, etc.  Take the kids to the doc yourself and get the marks documented quick enough that it's obvious they came from the incident in the recording.  Then take the medical reports with you to the judge.  The advantage is it's just you and the judge, no kids, no disordered spouse, no people from agencies, etc.  Nobody to muddy the waters.  The judge issues the ex parte order, then the hearing happens, and the evidence speaks for itself.

The worst that happens is if the judge doesn't issue the ex parte order, or if it's not approved at the hearing.  Then at least you're not put out of your house, and you have a record you can show of trying to act responsibly in the situation.

If approved and the restraining order is in place, THEN involve other authorities if you have to.  Then you have an order of protection from the court that they can't ignore.

You know... . looking back... . maybe we should have suggested that you press for court involvement first.  If you could have gotten a TPO or TRO in place first - the threshold to get one is fairly minimal - then you would have likely had an initial position of temporary stability.  It may not have lasted long, perhaps only a couple weeks but quite possibly up to a few months, but it would have started you on relatively solid footing rather than struggling to catch up.

But hindsight is limited, nothing to do about what has already happened.  Apparently the children have been trained their entire lives (look up Stockholm Syndrome) to tow the line and even feel sorry for their mother.  Only (1) expert perceptive professionals and (2) time for evaluations and investigation may get past their training.

As I wrote before, there's nothing to stop her from from solidifying her residential standing by filing for a restraining or protection order.  Since you know about her actions and have documentation of it, you could choose to go to family court and file your own motion first.  Yes, it's possible that both of you could end up having motions against the other.  (That happened to me.)  But wouldn't that be better than the only case being her allegations against you?  Best case scenario would be that her case gets dismissed and she's never put under any scrutiny since the judge had no motions against her.

I write that because I'm hoping DSS acted as they did only because (1) they were acting on an emergency response basis and the quickest way to stabilize it temporarily was to (1) see if the children reported abuse and (2) default to mother getting possession of children and residence.  Sorry, but one gender usually gets default preference.  In the USA it's called VAWA, Violence Against Women Act.  Repeated studies and evidence have shown that women can be abusers too but evidently that reality is not politically correct.

For all I know she might file for divorce as well.  Perhaps you ought to discuss that aspect as well with your lawyer, whether you ought to be the one to file for divorce.  It may be better to be assertive and proactive rather than defensive.  (I've heard that football teams seldom win games using only defense strategies.)

[Matt]

Everybody's story is different but there are also similarities - patterns we can see - and those can teach us a lot.

I think it may be helpful to take note of some of our stories, because lots of them have very low points, but good (or at least OK) outcomes.

I was married more than 10 years, kids (at the time) 7 and 9, plus stepkids I love as my own, then 17 and 29.  I had known my wife for many years before we ever went out.  We had the same friends.  We went out for a while, and she lied to me about birth control, and got pregnant, knowing I would marry her if she did that (and I did).

Lots of problems but my wife had not been diagnosed, and I had never heard of BPD.

She was violent with me a few times.  Later I found out she had hit my stepson when he was little.

A few days before Christmas she came home - I was sitting on the bed playing my guitar - and went into a rage - tore up all my sheet music and swung my guitar at my head.  I dealt with it the best way I knew how - tried to lock her out of the room - ultimately succeeded in removing her from the house and locking the doors.  Then I fixed dinner for the kids and started their bath.

She went to a neighbor's house and called 911, and said I "threw her down the stairs".  Two officers came and talked to us both, and to the kids, and noted some physical evidence like the torn sheet music and the layout of the house.  Their report, issued a few weeks later, proved she was lying;  she had told each officer a different story, and what the kids told the cops lined up with what I told them.

But their procedure was to arrest the man, and I was charged with assault.  An accusation is treated as "probable cause" (and our nation's founders roll over in their graves).  I did 16 hours of hard time ("Yo white man you snoring!".  While I was in jail I finally accepted that my wife had a big problem and it wasn't going to get fixed without professional help, and I could not continue to put myself at risk by being around her.

The next day I talked with my counselor and a criminal defense attorney, who both said the same:  "You have to protect yourself so you can be a good father.  You can't be a dad if you're in jail and if you keep doing what you're doing that's where you'll end up."  The lawyer was expensive, and I had to rent a place to live - I found one a few blocks away - because the judge released me from jail with the stipulation that I not go home til the case was resolved.  My lawyer advised me to have no contact with my wife except e-mail.

When we got the police report and showed it to the judge, the charges against me were dropped.  My wife proposed counseling to try to save the marriage and I agreed, thinking that maybe the counselor would encourage her to get help.  Complete waste of time and money.  We found another counselor - both of them chosen by my wife - and this one was better.  She told me that she thought my wife probably had BPD and encouraged me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" which led me here.

My wife rejected any suggestion that she get help, so about a year after the incident I gave up and moved forward with the divorce.  I filed a motion to have her deposed, and she made more than 40 false statements under oath.  I also filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist who administered the MMPI-2 to both of us and diagnosed my wife with multiple psychological disorders including BPD.  He recommended psychotherapy, and that was included in our settlement, but she never did it.  I agreed to 50/50 custody;  my lawyer told me that over time it would morph into "de facto primary custody" which is exactly what happened.  Now my kids are 15 and 17, stay with me most of the time, see their mom regularly and love her, and they're both doing very well - happy and healthy.

I wish it was 100% legal custody but if I could have seen the future, at my lowest point - the day I got out of jail and was prohibited from going home and seeing my kids - if I could have seen at that moment how it would all work out, I would have been very OK with it.  About 20 months of chaos and extreme stress, and lots of cost, but a pretty good resolution to the legal stuff, and most important, a good outcome for the kids.

There's no guarantee you'll have the same experience, but it's pretty likely if you get good advice and make good choices.  I think if you read other stories here - dads who were put on the defensive and kept their heads - you'll see this as a pattern - the eventual outcome is pretty good but the path to get there is kind of long and expensive.

[Waddams]

When I went through the false allegations + DV arrest - I had to go through this DV class as part of the program to get the charge dropped and the arrest expunged.  The DV class was led by a Masters level therapist.  Most of the guys in the class were not your typical abuser.  There was me who had used a martial arts move to get uBPDxgf off me when she had a hold on my arm and was pulling, turning, screaming, cussing, and physically hurting me.  I'd used it to get her off me.  Left a bruise, I got arrested.

There was another guy whose GF had started hitting him with a phone over and over, and then phone, fists, etc. while they were driving down a highway.  He ended up giving her a shot in the ribs to get her to stop because she was going to cause him to lose control of the vehicle otherwise.  Lots of that kind of stuff.

We had a discussion one day in the class that centered around how to minimize drama when interacting with disordered people.  Things like if you know they're lying, then sometimes we feel the need to ask them, get the lie, then prove back to them they're lying.  Then why do they get even madder?  And continue to lie.  and deny.  and... . and... . and... . the list of ways the drama escalates goes on and on.  How can they continue to act like that and even worse?  Are they crazy?  The group of guys was just going in circles and saying "What do we do in these situations?"  You're caught in a catch 22.  If you address the lies, things get worse.  If you don't, things get worse.

The T chimed in and basically said figure out your boundaries to not get caught up in the circular logic to begin with.  I'll never forget this advice:  Don't invite the opportunity to lie.  When you are with someone, by the time you get to dealing with these issues, you've got a pretty good idea of their problems already.  So try to set up dealing with issues in a way that eliminates the opportunity for more lies to come out.  In the case of what we were talking about in class... . instead of trying to catch them in a lie, just tell them what you know to start with.  Just confront them.  They can still deny and obfuscate and split, etc.  But just confront and don't play your own games of trying to get in a "one-up'd" position with them.

In situations like FormFlier's, I think the "don't invite the opportunity to lie" advice plays out by involving as few people/agencies as possible.  Confronting the issue without trying to get her to admit anything, without relying on kids, etc.  Just evidence in front of a judge and restraining order.  Nobody else involved.  There's no opportunity for the BPD to lie and twist and manipulate things to DSS investigators, etc. in that scenario.  There's no opportunity for kids who really shouldn't be involved in decisiosn like this anyway to get sucked in and manipulated.  Just confrontation with evidence of their misconduct in front of a judge.  

[earthgirl]

FormFlier,

I'm so sorry you are going through such a difficult experience.  I'd like to add to what the others have said:  kudos to doing what you are doing to protect your children.   

One thing I would suggest, as an attorney (and I apologize if this has already been raised... . I did a quick skim of the responses) -- it's very important that the children get into therapy, if they are not already there.  They need a safe place to sort all of this out, especially the attempts at parentification going on here by the mother.  (She has attempted to make her issue of custody, their responsibility).

[formflier]

Thanks for this input.

FormFlier,

I'm so sorry you are going through such a difficult experience.  I'd like to add to what the others have said:  kudos to doing what you are doing to protect your children.   

One thing I would suggest, as an attorney (and I apologize if this has already been raised... . I did a quick skim of the responses) -- it's very important that the children get into therapy, if they are not already there.  They need a safe place to sort all of this out, especially the attempts at parentification going on here by the mother.  (She has attempted to make her issue of custody, their responsibility).

[Turkish]

In the case of what we were talking about in class... . instead of trying to catch them in a lie, just tell them what you know to start with.  Just confront them.  They can still deny and obfuscate and split, etc.  But just confront and don't play your own games of trying to get in a "one-up'd" position with them.

Not to get the thread off track, but this is one of the "Games People Play" (from the book by Eric Berne, who developed the theory of Transactional Analysis and is the originator of Social Game Theory). This one's called NIGYSOB (Now I've Got You you SOB), and it takes two (or more) people to "play." I did this near the end trying to catch uBPDx in her lies. She, accordingly, responded like the Child, because I was being the accusing Parent. There was no Adult in the room at that time. No one "wins" that game. It's hard enough with nons, but with a PD'd person all the more dangerous.

[Matt]

In the case of what we were talking about in class... . instead of trying to catch them in a lie, just tell them what you know to start with.  Just confront them.  They can still deny and obfuscate and split, etc.  But just confront and don't play your own games of trying to get in a "one-up'd" position with them.

Not to get the thread off track, but this is one of the "Games People Play" (from the book by Eric Berne, who developed the theory of Transactional Analysis and is the originator of Social Game Theory). This one's called NIGYSOB (Now I've Got You you SOB), and it takes two (or more) people to "play." I did this near the end trying to catch uBPDx in her lies. She, accordingly, responded like the Child, because I was being the accusing Parent. There was no Adult in the room at that time. No one "wins" that game. It's hard enough with nons, but with a PD'd person all the more dangerous.

I don't think this is off-topic at all.  (This thread is covering a lot of territory - Formflier can say if it is all helpful - and let's remember that lots of our members read a thread but don't post.  So all these ideas are probably helping a lot of members... .

One key here may be to decide what are your objectives, Formflier.

For example, there are lots of methods used - like the ones discussed in the DV group Waddams described - to help us deal with people who have BPD and/or other problems.  This is the main focus of "Stop Walking On Eggshells" - how to deal with someone who has BPD and isn't getting the help she needs.

But that assumes you will be living with her or at least engaging with her on a somewhat intimate basis - private talks with nobody else present.  Which may be a very risky thing to do at this point, for a number of reasons - putting yourself at further legal risk for one.

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

[catnap]

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.

I highly recommend the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy. 

[Matt]

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.

I highly recommend the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy. 

"Splitting" is great, and you can also find good articles on Eddy's web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

[ForeverDad]

To expand on the book and article resources, here are a few crucial ones:

Articles:

The Bridge (Acceptance to stop Fixing and to Let Go)

DrJoeCarver.com - Relationship warning signs - Stockholm Syndrome

Books:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (invaluable legal guidance!)

Divorce Poison (how to effectively help the kids)

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex

Back to the lawyer situation... . Have you gotten any valid legal advice?  This not not something to wait for an appointment next Friday, nor to sit back and do nothing and let ex continue on the rampage.  Yesterday the family conflict ratcheted to a higher level when DSS got involved.  It will be very hard if not impossible to ratchet it back down to the way things were before.

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.

Have you yet decided whether this marriage can be salvaged - or whether it should even be attempted in light of the ever-rising conflict and years of no improvement?  We're not asking you to try to fix it, odds are it is unfixable, it would require a complete revamping of your spouse's thinking, perceptions and behaviors that would take years of dedicated effort to accomplish.  We're asking what judgments and decisions you see before you, which path(s) and options are possible for you.  Will you still try to be the Fixer, the Rescuer or now just the Empowered Parent?

So that begs the question... . Is your lawyer experienced and proactive enough to deal with an aggressive, no-holds-barred, winner-take-all spouse?  We can guarantee you (okay, only 99.999%) this is going to be a high conflict case, almost surely heading into a divorce, if not right now, then eventually.  If your lawyer focuses his/her career on filing forms (no allusions to your user name intended) and holding your hand through the process, then you need to start looking for someone more proactive and assertive.

Let's see... . there was to be a counselor session today?  Was the T able to calm things down so you could return home now?  If you do return home, be very aware that you will be at high risk to be framed for DV, threat of DV, child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.  Especially if she knows you have recordings of her misdeeds.  She will feel she needs to make you look worse than her and how better than to frame you or make false allegations of bad behavior?  Be aware.  Beware.

[formflier]

 

I has splitting and divorce poison in my desk drawer... . unfortunately haven't read much... . I better get on that tonight.

Was spending more time learning to validate... . but I had these books just in case.

This thing moved a bit quicker than I hoped (an event I couldn't let go)... . I saw the trend coming.

[formflier]

 


Back to the lawyer situation... . Have you gotten any valid legal advice?  This not not something to wait for an appointment next Friday, nor to sit back and do nothing and let ex continue on the rampage.  Yesterday the family conflict ratcheted to a higher level when DSS got involved.  It will be very hard if not impossible to ratchet it back down to the way things were before.Case should be in new DSS tonight.  Due to my position it has to be done by another county.  Last night was "triage" I believe I  will get a better result or they will at least listen.  Should have contact by late today. 

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.[/quote]
This is up in the air.  If there is no treatment or realization that there is a disorder... . no chance.  I'm not getting back on the crazy train.  Had good long talk with my pastor.  He was not surprised she is BPD... . she likes to teach children... . not be involved in intimate Sunday school sessions.  He is supportive of steps that have been taken because the situation is now "unstuck"... . for a long time things were really status quo or slight deterioration.  I'm not going to be there to blame or do the dance.  Now... . that doesn't mean good or bad... . but something will change.  I have to think through many different paths.  He also validated the moral choices I was making... . kid safety over all else... . more later on this

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.[/quote]
Have you yet decided whether this marriage can be salvaged - or whether it should even be attempted in light of the ever-rising conflict and years of no improvement?  We're not asking you to try to fix it, odds are it is unfixable, it would require a complete revamping of your spouse's thinking, perceptions and behaviors that would take years of dedicated effort to accomplish.  We're asking what judgments and decisions you see before you, which path(s) and options are possible for you.  Will you still try to be the Fixer, the Rescuer or now just the Empowered Parent?  If there is verifiable progress... . I am open to fixing.  But... . the fixing is more reflecting back at her... . not allowing her to feel less pain.

So that begs the question... . Is your lawyer experienced and proactive enough to deal with an aggressive, no-holds-barred, winner-take-all spouse?  We can guarantee you (okay, only 99.999%) this is going to be a high conflict case, almost surely heading into a divorce, if not right now, then eventually.  If your lawyer focuses his/her career on filing forms (no allusions to your user name intended) and holding your hand through the process, then you need to start looking for someone more proactive and assertive.

Let's see... . there was to be a counselor session today?  Was the T able to calm things down so you could return home now?  If you do return home, be very aware that you will be at high risk to be framed for DV, threat of DV, child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.  Especially if she knows you have recordings of her misdeeds.  She will feel she needs to make you look worse than her and how better than to frame you or make false allegations of bad behavior?  Be aware.  Beware.I was warned by pastor that at some point she will miss me... need me and will turn very sweet.  He said that is time to be very careful and not mistake that for progress.  In other words... . don't jump at first opportunity.  He recommend staying away a while... . to let the new system form rather than recreating the old.  The old system failed... . don't go back.

Therapy session was yesterday for marriage... and tomorrow for my individual... that used to be marriage counselor... . and first mentioned BPD.  I need to find out how to get records and see what they say.  Something on paper where a mental health person says needs eval... . displays traits... . something.

More lawyer talk later today.  Need to make contact with other county DSS first.  Will make sure they hear tape ASAP[/quote]

[Matt]

What is ":)SS"?

I think you are right to not assume your wife will take responsibility and seek change, and also to leave that possibility open.

A few members here have been lucky - their spouses have decided to get help, and have stuck with it, and when that happens, the chance of good progress is very high.

One study showed that more than 80% of people diagnosed with BPD, who get the right kind of treatment and stick with it for five years, achieve "remission of major symptoms";  that is, they still have BPD, just like an alcoholic will always be an alcoholic, but they have learned to act right as often as most of us do.

Unfortunately, most people who have BPD or a similar disorder - and by the way, about half of all people who have BPD also have some other psychological disorder, which makes diagnosis more complicated - most people with BPD never accept the need to get help.  They either deny they have a problem, or say they do but make some excuse not to get help, or they start down the right path but don't stay with it.  So it is not practical to assume that someone with BPD will get better.  You have to prepare for the worst and figure out what you can do to protect yourself and the kids, and rebuild a new life.

[Grey Kitty]

One question to confer with your lawyer... . somebody mentioned it, but this has been pretty active, and I didn't see you comment on this:

Should you file a temporary restraining order/protective order for you and your children against your wife, NOW, before she files one against you?

Your situation will be better if there is an order against her, obviously.

Or you both make similar filings, the judge will be examining her behavior, not just yours.

If she is about to file or already did... . your window of opportunity will be short.

[Matt]

One question to confer with your lawyer... . somebody mentioned it, but this has been pretty active, and I didn't see you comment on this:

Should you file a temporary restraining order/protective order for you and your children against your wife, NOW, before she files one against you?

Your situation will be better if there is an order against her, obviously.

Or you both make similar filings, the judge will be examining her behavior, not just yours.

If she is about to file or already did... . your window of opportunity will be short.

Good point.

A couple things that have helped some of our members in similar situations... .

One is to remember the difference between criminal charges and civil charges.  Criminal charges involve the police and a prosecutor, and must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.  The police have their own procedures which may be biased against men;  women are not often charged with DV (though they commit DV acts about as often as men).  Prosecutors may also have an agenda - they look good for putting men who hurt women in jail but they are generally reluctant to put a woman in jail without super-strong proof.

Also, criminal charges are hard to prove.  51% of the evidence isn't enough.

Civil charges are different.  They are based on "a predominance of the evidence" not "proof", and they don't usually involve either the police or a prosecutor - it's you who brings the charges, not the police and not a prosecutor.

TROs are usually granted right away, when a woman asks for them.  Your lawyer might know how things work where you live - whether a TRO is likely to be granted, and how to go about it, and whether you can file civil charges against her.

You need good legal advice fast - what are all your options and how do things work where you live.

It's great that you have a lawyer and will see him soon, but you can also contact any number of other lawyers and learn a lot.  Some won't charge you for an initial consultation, and you don't necessarily have to tell them much to just ask some questions... .

[Boss302]

Therapy session was yesterday for marriage... and tomorrow for my individual... that used to be marriage counselor... . and first mentioned BPD.  I need to find out how to get records and see what they say.  Something on paper where a mental health person says needs eval... . displays traits... . something.

Has anyone on this board successfully "proven" the estranged spouse is BPD?

My BPDx was clearly, obviously off the rails, and my lawyer agreed, but she also told me that to prove it, you'd have to have a full psych evaluation done on her. That wasn't financially feasible for me, and per my attorney her success rate on that was mixed, at best. BPD is not the easiest thing to diagnose. Thankfully my ex "cooperated" by living an incredibly unstable lifestyle (multiple evictions, filthy house, not sending the kids to school, etc) and that made it easy for the court to decide she wasn't stable enough to warrant anything but limited custody. Her mental state never really entered into the equation.

Formfiler, I'd definitely consult with your attorney and see what it would take to "prove" your wife is BPD.

[formflier]

Department of Social Services... . most places call it CPS.  They protect the children... . supposedly.

What is ":)SS"?

I think you are right to not assume your wife will take responsibility and seek change, and also to leave that possibility open.

A few members here have been lucky - their spouses have decided to get help, and have stuck with it, and when that happens, the chance of good progress is very high.

One study showed that more than 80% of people diagnosed with BPD, who get the right kind of treatment and stick with it for five years, achieve "remission of major symptoms";  that is, they still have BPD, just like an alcoholic will always be an alcoholic, but they have learned to act right as often as most of us do.

Unfortunately, most people who have BPD or a similar disorder - and by the way, about half of all people who have BPD also have some other psychological disorder, which makes diagnosis more complicated - most people with BPD never accept the need to get help.  They either deny they have a problem, or say they do but make some excuse not to get help, or they start down the right path but don't stay with it.  So it is not practical to assume that someone with BPD will get better.  You have to prepare for the worst and figure out what you can do to protect yourself and the kids, and rebuild a new life.

[Matt]

Has anyone on this board successfully "proven" the estranged spouse is BPD?

Well that may not be the right objective - it's more important to focus on the behaviors than the diagnosis - but yes, I have.

Here's how I did it:

* I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist whose job was to evaluate the situation and recommend a settlement of the custody issues.

* I neglected to specify that the evaluation should include objective psych evals, but when I met with the CE I asked him about that.  I told him that our marriage counselor - who had been chosen by my wife - had told me "I think Ms. Matt may have BPD." and had encouraged me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells", which confirmed for me that my wife's behaviors and history lined up well with BPD.  I never said, "She has BPD.", I just told what the counselor had said and what behavior patterns my wife showed.

* The CE asked us both to take the MMPI-2.  I said sure and did it.  My wife stalled til her lawyer told her she better do it, and then she took the evaluation too.  My wife's results showed BPD and other stuff.

* The CE summarized the results in his report and made recommendations, including psychotherapy for my ex.

If we hadn't settled, the next step should have been to find an expert witness to testify about the long-term impact of a parent's BPD on the kids:  high risk of substance abuse, depression, suicide, etc.

It is correct that this strategy adds some cost.  The CE cost $5,000 (which I had to pay, though I got half of it back in the settlement), plus $500 apiece for the MMPI-2.  If I needed an expert witness that would have added thousands, plus my lawyer's fees.

But... . it may be the best money you will ever spend.

[livednlearned]

Formflier,

I just read through your thread a bit -- some things struck me.

One is that I suspect she has been getting ready to file for divorce for a while. She maneuvered to get access to the books, then the car titles, she moved $30K out of your joint checking, and not too subtle -- she has been threatening divorce. You mention her sister (possibly BPD as well) has had a scorched earth divorce and may be coaching your wife.

A lot of pwBPD make false accusations. Your wife has been accusing you of having multiple affairs. If you live in a state with alienation of affection laws, her lawyer will try to play that card in the initial complaint. There has to be proof -- it can't just be your wife thinking that a woman breastfeeding a child is having an affair with you. The way alienation of affection laws works is this: Let's say I am the breadwinner. My ex had an affair. I discover the affair and the "paramour." When I file for divorce, I don't have to pay alimony to my ex because there was an affair. If your wife believes you have had an affair, she will introduce that in the divorce complaint (if she files first) or the counter complaint (if you file first). She has to substantiate her claim. Some counties will also go after the paramour, or try to make you pay additional alimony (if you had an affair). I'm assuming you didn't -- your wife's accusations are similar to the one's my ex made toward me. I stopped having eye contact with men he was so jealous.

My advice to you would be to file first. If you live in a state with legal separation like mine, you would file a divorce complaint. One advantage to filing first is that it prevents her from legally taking the kids to another state. If she decided to take the kids to another state and reside there for more than six months, she can file from there and you'll be spending a lot of time traveling for the various hearings, conferences, etc.

In terms of the $30K -- it's fairly common during the heat of divorce to gut the joint account like she did. A barracuda lawyer would say take it all. A reasonable lawyer would say take half. All that will happen is that the $30K will count against whatever is settled during equitable distribution. If you have $100K, and she took $30K, then you would only have to give her $20K, as an example.

If you file first, keep in mind that the first thing of significance that will happen is a temporary consent order. These temporary orders are pretty much permanent. Depending on where you live, the temporary order might happen through mediation. You're going to need a lot of help from friends here because  -- and no offense intended, we've all been there -- you're a bit of a doormat. Being reasonable gets a lot of us into bad situations, especially after years of being in an abusive relationship.

It's good that your pastor senses she is disordered. Be careful about who you tell she is BPD. If she finds out, she'll get ahead of the message and turn it around on you. You might want to tell someone at work what is about to go down, and let them know she is mentally ill and has threatened a smear campaign. There's not a whole lot you can do. Just know that it's very crazy for anyone to contact someone's employer and air out dirty laundry. It will feel awful, but most reasonable people will find her to be disturbed if she does that. I told my boss and colleagues what was happening and they were some of the best support I found. I discovered my boss had experience with BPD and she took measures to help protect me. Hopefully you'll find the same support where you work.

Don't be passive right now -- find out how the DSS process works, talk to your lawyer, post here often, get lots of support. It's going to be a wild ride going forward.

Definitely do not tell your wife you suspect she is BPD. That will blow up in your face.

Hang in there.  

[ForeverDad]

Since you have some sort of responsible position and you have involvement from outside the county, it sounds like you will could get a reasonably unbiased assessment, possibly more thorough and carefully conducted than normal.  No guarantees of course.  So maybe it'll only be "roller coaster without a seat belt" scary rather than "end of the world" dire and dismal.  Let's hope so.

However, it's likely at least some of the kids will not initially corroborate the recordings.  After all these years under her influence they may feel supporting her the only action they can contemplate.  They may not like the rages but it's what they're accustomed to.  Scary, huh?  That's Stockholm Syndrome.  That's why you need to advocate to DSS and the court that you want all the children in counseling.  Besides, courts love counseling.  Just be sure your spouse doesn't take over the sessions.  Counseling or therapy for the parents is separate from the kids' sessions.  It will almost surely take quite a while for the counselors to undo the outer layers of conditioning before they can open up.

It also will be especially hard for some of them to have consistent senses of what is Right and what is Wrong.  Their mother probably proclaimed what things were based on her Moods of the Moment.  Always in a turmoil and chaos.  Quite confusing.  Give them time, guidance and reinforcement and they'll improve.

In general though, you need to try to keep the kids out of the conflict.  She will of course involve them and you need to find ways to counteract it but you still want them to know you just want them to be kids and not feel forced take sides.  That will be hard.  You'll want to validate their observations.  You'll want to avoid invalidating such as with confusing comments meant to smooth things over like "She's just upset, she still loves you" or "She's only upset some of the time", etc.  Be aware they're used to invalidating themselves, you can gently offer objective observations and guide them to correct conclusions.

Lastly, you mentioned her grabbing a huge chunk of money lately from the joint account.  It may not be illegal but it may be an indication she sensed you were contemplating doing something about the dysfunctional family situation and she needed to feather her nest egg.  As we say, they may be disordered but often they're not dumb (about $$$).  While the court may not force her to return it, if you find it hard to pay for the kids' counseling ask the court for her to return the money and have it held in an escrow or similar account earmarked for the children such as for their counseling expenses.  Be the parent offering sensible solutions!  Maybe not now, maybe not soon, but eventually they'll realize who is the intractable difficult parent and who is the reasonable problem-solving parent.

your wife's accusations are similar to the one's my ex made toward me. I stopped having eye contact with men he was so jealous.

Oh, yeah, I lived that life.  I even avoided looking at women at work, in stores, at the congregation, etc, despite my now-ex being nowhere around.

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

These temporary orders are pretty much permanent.

Beware of a lawyer that says, ":)on't worry that it's a terrible temporary order, we'll fix it later."  Later might not occur until the divorce is final.  My court refused to change the temp order during the divorce process.  For me that was 23.5 months!  That despite the custody evaluator report bluntly stating, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can.  Mother should immediately lose temporary custody."  We have some common truisms around here.  One is, "Temporary orders generally morph into permanent orders."  Apparently judges think that if it is 'working' for a while then there's no need to change it and possibly upset the children.

[livednlearned]

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

I recommended filing first because she has threatened to take the kids to another state. Agreed, it's debatable about whether there is advantage to file first or not, but without anything filed, a parent can freely take the kids without any legal repercussions. The challenge is figuring out whether it's a bluff or not.

[Matt]

I recommended filing first because she has threatened to take the kids to another state. Agreed, it's debatable about whether there is advantage to file first or not, but without anything filed, a parent can freely take the kids without any legal repercussions. The challenge is figuring out whether it's a bluff or not.

Where I live, it doesn't matter who files first, but it does matter when someone files.

Filing triggers a number of things.  Neither party can make a big purchase, like a house (and you can't sell something big either).  You can't take money out of a joint account, except for normal household expenses.  No big financial decisions til the case is settled.

More important, filing triggers court control over the kids.  As LnL says, that means neither parent can take the kids out of the state (or maybe even out of the county).  Both parents are likely to have regular time with the kids.

It all gets spelled out in the "temporary orders".  When you file - or if the other party files - you can request temporary orders.  Some of them are standard, like the $ issues.  Others are specific to your case.  You might ask for the kids to be assigned a counselor;  for both parents to have equal parenting time;  for both parents to be ordered not to talk to the kids about the legal matters;  etc.

Sometimes our members get stuck in a situation where there are no temporary orders;  the court just doesn't make that a priority.  Usually that's a bad situation for the parent who doesn't have BPD (or whatever);  lack of control favors the crazier party.

So... . this idea of filing quickly, and asking for regular time for the kids, may force the court to hear both sides and maybe some witnesses too.  You might be able to get off the defensive.

[WorriedSibling]

Having just watched my brother spend over $80,000. just to see his child.  He was a nice guy, stupid  but nice.  He took the interest of his child at heart and wacko just used his non-confrontation as a means to destroy.  I can only tell you do not mediate.  It's a waste of money, do not let your lawyer eat up dollars on replies to insane BS from her lawyers.

When they also start to ignore Court Orders don't sit and wait and see if they will get their act together because what ever you dealt with within the relationship only gets worse.   Get a good no-nonsense lawyer immediately.

Be prepared for every to the most unimaginable case accusations , the very thing you thought to be real will be an illusion.  Be prepared for the worst of the worst and then you will survive and  heal.  Sometimes it take so much away time to understand what has happened to you.  I've tried to help my brother through this experience and it's not for the faint of heart so I wouldn't want to tell you it will be easy because it isn't.

Good Luck with your decisions and I hope the heck you are taking notes, all the ducks in paper are in order... . and even with that it's a crap shoot within the legal system.  Be honest, be prepared, don't apologize, and don't forget without sympathy/empathy why you are where you are at the moment.  It's not because you are a bad person it's because the person you have tried/or still trying to deal with has no comprehension of what it is rational or real. 

I'll stop now because my comments sound like a rant and if I've offended anybody I apologize, I can only state what I know and what I know makes me feel sick in my  stomach for what has been done to my brother.   

[formflier]

I have recordings of her in a rage talking about that they are "her" childrend and she gets to decide. 

When I ask about "we"... . there is no compromise. 

Same time she is coaching kids to no spare Daddy's feelings and that what the kids say is going to dertermine custody. 

Please give opinions of how early I should introduce these to counteract he said she said. 

Note:  Nothing filed at this point by either.  She has threatened for years but typical fear campaign.  However... . this is new territory.

Since you have some sort of responsible position and you have involvement from outside the county, it sounds like you will could get a reasonably unbiased assessment, possibly more thorough and carefully conducted than normal.  No guarantees of course.  So maybe it'll only be "roller coaster without a seat belt" scary rather than "end of the world" dire and dismal.  Let's hope so.

However, it's likely at least some of the kids will not initially corroborate the recordings.  After all these years under her influence they may feel supporting her the only action they can contemplate.  They may not like the rages but it's what they're accustomed to.  Scary, huh?  That's Stockholm Syndrome.  That's why you need to advocate to DSS and the court that you want all the children in counseling.  Besides, courts love counseling.  Just be sure your spouse doesn't take over the sessions.  Counseling or therapy for the parents is separate from the kids' sessions.  It will almost surely take quite a while for the counselors to undo the outer layers of conditioning before they can open up.

It also will be especially hard for some of them to have consistent senses of what is Right and what is Wrong.  Their mother probably proclaimed what things were based on her Moods of the Moment.  Always in a turmoil and chaos.  Quite confusing.  Give them time, guidance and reinforcement and they'll improve.

In general though, you need to try to keep the kids out of the conflict.  She will of course involve them and you need to find ways to counteract it but you still want them to know you just want them to be kids and not feel forced take sides.  That will be hard.  You'll want to validate their observations.  You'll want to avoid invalidating such as with confusing comments meant to smooth things over like "She's just upset, she still loves you" or "She's only upset some of the time", etc.  Be aware they're used to invalidating themselves, you can gently offer objective observations and guide them to correct conclusions.

Lastly, you mentioned her grabbing a huge chunk of money lately from the joint account.  It may not be illegal but it may be an indication she sensed you were contemplating doing something about the dysfunctional family situation and she needed to feather her nest egg.  As we say, they may be disordered but often they're not dumb (about $$$).  While the court may not force her to return it, if you find it hard to pay for the kids' counseling ask the court for her to return the money and have it held in an escrow or similar account earmarked for the children such as for their counseling expenses.  Be the parent offering sensible solutions!  Maybe not now, maybe not soon, but eventually they'll realize who is the intractable difficult parent and who is the reasonable problem-solving parent.

your wife's accusations are similar to the one's my ex made toward me. I stopped having eye contact with men he was so jealous.

Oh, yeah, I lived that life.  I even avoided looking at women at work, in stores, at the congregation, etc, despite my now-ex being nowhere around.

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

These temporary orders are pretty much permanent.

Beware of a lawyer that says, ":)on't worry that it's a terrible temporary order, we'll fix it later."  Later might not occur until the divorce is final.  My court refused to change the temp order during the divorce process.  For me that was 23.5 months!  That despite the custody evaluator report bluntly stating, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can.  Mother should immediately lose temporary custody."  We have some common truisms around here.  One is, "Temporary orders generally morph into permanent orders."  Apparently judges think that if it is 'working' for a while then there's no need to change it and possibly upset the children.

[formflier]

I'm saying bluff... . or a move to force me to file if she does actually do it.

Luckily... my lawyer is quite firm that I don't have to file to prevent this.

I'm in North Carolina and we have lived here long enough so we can force them to get back here.  He says within 10 days.

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

I recommended filing first because she has threatened to take the kids to another state. Agreed, it's debatable about whether there is advantage to file first or not, but without anything filed, a parent can freely take the kids without any legal repercussions. The challenge is figuring out whether it's a bluff or not.

[formflier]

I have watched this play out in our family... . with other divorces.

In that case... . I think my ex bro in law filed to early.  I think the sister in law was bluffing or having a rage and no interest in filing divorce... . but she did want control of kids and situation. 

So she threated to alienate kids or take them away... . but actually didn't.  He did get a more friendly judge because over there (in that state) the filer picks the venue. 

Not so to me.  There seems to be less of an advantage to filing first here.  However... . if something actually happens that is untenable... then I must. 

Very similar to what I did over the massive spanking.  I knew that wasn't a threat... it actually happened... . and I WILL NEVER sit by and be passive about that again.  It was a trend as well... . her discipline has been getting progressively more unreasonable, rage fueled and harsh.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.  That was what I was going for in marriage counseling.  She weakly said no punishment... . but nothing in writing.  She of course said she always keeps her word... . BS.

Having just watched my brother spend over $80,000. just to see his child.  He was a nice guy, stupid  but nice.  He took the interest of his child at heart and wacko just used his non-confrontation as a means to destroy.  I can only tell you do not mediate.  It's a waste of money, do not let your lawyer eat up dollars on replies to insane BS from her lawyers.

When they also start to ignore Court Orders don't sit and wait and see if they will get their act together because what ever you dealt with within the relationship only gets worse.   Get a good no-nonsense lawyer immediately.

Be prepared for every to the most unimaginable case accusations , the very thing you thought to be real will be an illusion.  Be prepared for the worst of the worst and then you will survive and  heal.  Sometimes it take so much away time to understand what has happened to you.  I've tried to help my brother through this experience and it's not for the faint of heart so I wouldn't want to tell you it will be easy because it isn't.

Good Luck with your decisions and I hope the heck you are taking notes, all the ducks in paper are in order... . and even with that it's a crap shoot within the legal system.  Be honest, be prepared, don't apologize, and don't forget without sympathy/empathy why you are where you are at the moment.  It's not because you are a bad person it's because the person you have tried/or still trying to deal with has no comprehension of what it is rational or real. 

I'll stop now because my comments sound like a rant and if I've offended anybody I apologize, I can only state what I know and what I know makes me feel sick in my  stomach for what has been done to my brother.   

[catnap]

She is not going to take responsibility for any of this.  She may pretend to for a bit, then it will go back to the old status quo. 

The disadvantage to waiting is that the recordings/incidents will become "stale" in the eyes of the law.  Your L can tell you how it works where you live. 

BS is right, she will not stop.  She may get more covert in her "punishments".  Verbal abuse should be mentioned also as part of her promise.  I would not count on your children telling you about stuff if you are not there. 

[KateCat]

Formflier,

You've had a terrible shock and it is no wonder you have a strong desire to return to something more normal. It is easy and natural to be lulled quickly into FOG at this time. Maybe you are now not seeing this as a strong possibility:

I suspect she has been getting ready to file for divorce for a while. She maneuvered to get access to the books, then the car titles, she moved $30K out of your joint checking, and not too subtle -- she has been threatening divorce. You mention her sister (possibly BPD as well) has had a scorched earth divorce and may be coaching your wife.

It's greatly to your wife's advantage at this time to lie low, as you lull yourself back into denial. She is likely to be taking your measure very keenly now, as her objective is control. Your objective may not be so clear to you.

"Beware. Be aware."

(O.K., I'm going to add the thing that really concerns me. I think she does suffer from psychosis, at least intermittently, and the kids will remain at great emotional risk as long as she remains the primary, unsupervised caretaker.)

[Grey Kitty]

Very similar to what I did over the massive spanking.  I knew that wasn't a threat... it actually happened... . and I WILL NEVER sit by and be passive about that again.  It was a trend as well... . her discipline has been getting progressively more unreasonable, rage fueled and harsh.

Agree with your assessment of the trend. Given your situation today, what have you seen that convinces you it is shifting back the other direction?

And given your current circumstances (removed from the household, temporarily) your non-legal options to prevent this sort of action again are zilch. And the likelihood of hit happening when you don't see it is much higher now.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.  That was what I was going for in marriage counseling.  She weakly said no punishment... . but nothing in writing.  She of course said she always keeps her word... . BS.

I don't get why you are ready to believe what she will put in writing, but not what she says verbally.

Is this something in YOUR internal believe structure, or is it something about her?

[DreamGirl]

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

[livednlearned]

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

I'm in North Carolina

Formflier, I did a quick look at case law in NC. Courts are looking for serious physical injury -- in an appeals case, beatings with a belt that resulted in bruises were not treated as child abuse.

I'm not a lawyer, but found this:

Section 7B-101(1) of the North Carolina Juvenile Code defines an abused juvenile as one whose parent has “inflicted upon the juvenile a serious physical injury.”

Allegations of abuse and neglect must be proven by clear and convincing evidence.  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 7B-805 (2005).  “In a non-jury [abuse and] neglect adjudication, the trial court's findings of fact supported by clear and convincing competent evidence are deemed conclusive, even where some evidence supports contrary findings.”

The case goes on to say that whippings and spanking that results in a bruise is not considered serious physical injury. In the case I found, the court found clear and convincing competence evidence of abuse, but the appellate court overturned and remanded the ruling.

After DSS does an investigation (let's say they conclude there was no evidence of child abuse), what are your next steps?

[catnap]

Abuse includes infliction of a serious physical injury by other than accidental means; creating a substantial risk of such injury by other than accidental means; and using cruel or grossly inappropriate procedures or devices to modify behavior. Juvenile § 7B-101(1). [Civil Code]

North Carolina does allow parents to physically discipline their children. Following is the guidance that is within our Child Protective Services Manual for county Department of Social Services, parents and individuals to review and follow:

    "Parents have a right to discipline their children. Done appropriately, spanking and the use of corporal punishment are not considered child abuse. Corporal punishment, commonly referred to as physical discipline or spanking, is the application of physical force, including striking with the hand or with an object, against the body of another. However, significant trauma and tissue damage, such as bruises, welts, or lacerations may be signs of child neglect (inappropriate discipline) or child abuse, depending on the extent of the injuries.

    Factors to consider regarding bruising include: location and severity of the injury, child's age and developmental stage, and whether the bruises are consistent with normal play. Injuries such as these, not resulting from an accident, must be assessed. A definition of significant trauma is any injury beyond temporary redness of the skin. A practical guideline to use is that any inflicted injury which lasts more than 24 hours constitutes significant injury and requires an investigation."

    Thank you for contacting the DSS Website with your inquiry. If there is a need to contact this office again, I can be reached by phone at the number listed below or via e-mail.

    Valarie J.

    North Carolina Division of Social Services

www.kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp#ncarolina  Link to civil code: www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_7b/gs_7b-101.html

[ForeverDad]

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.

She is not going to take responsibility for any of this.  She may pretend to for a bit, then it will go back to the old status quo.

The disadvantage to waiting is that the recordings/incidents will become "stale" in the eyes of the law.  Your L can tell you how it works where you live.

BS is right, she will not stop.  She may get more covert in her "punishments".  Verbal abuse should be mentioned also as part of her promise.  I would not count on your children telling you about stuff if you are not there.

Right now you have something you almost certainly won't have the next time around if she plays her cards right - leverage.  You have leverage now because you have documentation that she's lost self-control when punishing the children.  Yes, it may not be enough to get you custody, but it might be enough to get a good Custody Evaluation done, it might be enough to start you off with equal time with the children, it might be enough for the court to grant you as a father a temporary order with more authority with the children than it would otherwise have done if you didn't have this incident at hand.  All I'm saying is that if you don't have an 'edge' or leverage then you'll likely face starting out being an alternate weekend father at best.

My fear:  Next time - and there will be a next incident of something - she'll make sure you're the one looking worse than her.  Part rejection, part retaliation, part projection, etc.

As quoted above, this recent incident means something now, maybe a 'concern' even if it is not considered child abuse, but a few weeks or months from now or if there's some settlement agreement now, then anyone looking back at it will consider it resolved, "stale" or not actionable.  Maybe it would count for history but don't hold your breath.

Apparently there is some question whether this will be considered or ruled child abuse.  Maybe all that will happen is that someone wags their finger at her this time.  BUT right now you look better than her, and that status is something that will dissipate over time

We can't tell you to divorce or to reconcile.  That's your decision based on all input including your lawyer's advice.  However, we can identify the risks we and our other members have experienced.  We see the all-too-familiar patterns and risks.  Whether you'll face them, a few or a lot, no one knows but the odds are high that much of what we've written applies in your case.

[Matt]

Wow - lots of good discussion here - kind of like drinking from a garden hose - maybe too much to take in all at once.  I'm hoping this thread is helping you, Formflier, and maybe others too.

But I'll add a couple of thoughts in case they might be helpful... .

First, about the likelihood that someone who has a serious psychological problem (like BPD) will change her behavior in a significant way:

I think it is a mistake to take any commitment she may make seriously, whether it is written or verbal, even if another party witnesses it, unless it also includes the steps which are needed for her to be able to change her behavior:  diagnosis and long-term treatment.

What I mean is, if you can convince your cat to act like a dog - get your cat to sign a promise to greet you at the door when you get home from work, wagging its tale - that's great.  But a cat is still a cat, not a dog, and your cat's behavior is going to revert to what is "normal" for a cat.  She might be able to play-act for a while but your wife is no more able to think and act right than your cat is to act like a dog - it's just not who and what she is.

If her problem is purely psychological - for example, twisted thinking due to early-life trauma - and if she is diagnosed as such - BPD or another psychological disorder (or more than one, which is common) - she can benefit from the right kind of talk-therapy, and learn to un-twist her thinking, and control her behavior.  It's very difficult and takes time and commitment, but it can work.

(It is possible that her problems may not all be purely psychological - there may be some problem that can only be treated with medication, not talk-therapy alone.  Then her promises to change her behavior may be even less likely to come true, without the right treatment.)

What can't work (in my layman's view) is just gritting her teeth and willing herself to think and act right.  When she gets upset - and she probably gets upset for reasons that have nothing to do with you or the kids, or anything that's here and now - she probably gets upset due to stuff that is deep within her - when she gets upset, she is probably not capable of thinking constructively or controlling her behavior.  She has to un-learn patterns of thinking that seem normal to her, and learn new ones;  in effect she has to (with the right help) take her own personality apart, and fix the problem which is under several layers of stuff.  She can't do that without the right professional help, so she will continue to act out, and it's more likely that her acting out toward you will get worse, not better, unless she gets the right help.

So... . telling you "I won't do such-and-such" or even signing a paper that says that - my wife made various promises and signed various documents - they meant nothing, because she is not able to think sensibly and control her behavior when she is under stress, and she is pretty much always under stress because of stuff that's inside her.

Second thought... . stuff to read... .

Others have suggested "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (written by the woman who founded this site, by the way), ":)ivorce Poison" and "Splitting" - all great.  I would also suggest Christine Lawson's "Understanding The Borderline Mother".  It's expensive and depressing - maybe wait til you are up to it! - but could help you understand and show others, like your attorney, what is at stake.  Also tons of footnotes to research which shows the long-term impact of a mother's BPD on the kids, which may be very relevant to your case as it plays out.

[formflier]

I agree about the danger. 

From watching the rest of the family dynamics... . I think it is a big deal to the women in the extended family that they don't file.  They act up bad enough to get the hubby to file... then play the victim.  Can you believe that blah blah blah filed on me.

I've got more time to chat with attorney tomorrow. 

Need to get a clear legal understanding of spanking laws in North Carolina.

Need to get a clear legal understanding of the legal separation laws in North Carolina.  I think that technically you can't file for divorce until a year separation.  Don't know if that changes tactics or not.

At this point I really only have one clear goal... . the rest of my goals depend on what else happens. 

I want to put some written documentation in place... . through DSS (or if they won't... . the court... I guess) that spanking or any kind of physical punishment is over in my family... . until further notice.  Right now there is only a verbal committment.  She swears she keeps her word... .

Formflier,

You've had a terrible shock and it is no wonder you have a strong desire to return to something more normal. It is easy and natural to be lulled quickly into FOG at this time. Maybe you are now not seeing this as a strong possibility:

I suspect she has been getting ready to file for divorce for a while. She maneuvered to get access to the books, then the car titles, she moved $30K out of your joint checking, and not too subtle -- she has been threatening divorce. You mention her sister (possibly BPD as well) has had a scorched earth divorce and may be coaching your wife.

It's greatly to your wife's advantage at this time to lie low, as you lull yourself back into denial. She is likely to be taking your measure very keenly now, as her objective is control. Your objective may not be so clear to you.

"Beware. Be aware."

(O.K., I'm going to add the thing that really concerns me. I think she does suffer from psychosis, at least intermittently, and the kids will remain at great emotional risk as long as she remains the primary, unsupervised caretaker.)

[formflier]

Hmmm... . well... in general I'm a big fan of if you say it... . you'll put it in writing. 

With a uBPDw... that always says... . I never said that... . I guess that goes on steroids.

In writing eliminates "confusion" about what was said.

I hope it is never needed... . but if it continues to get worse (as I suspect)... . that if I have it in writing... . and she does it again... . then I start to have more leverage to "prove" to the world that she can't be trusted.

Thoughts on my thinking on this?

Very similar to what I did over the massive spanking.  I knew that wasn't a threat... it actually happened... . and I WILL NEVER sit by and be passive about that again.  It was a trend as well... . her discipline has been getting progressively more unreasonable, rage fueled and harsh.

Agree with your assessment of the trend. Given your situation today, what have you seen that convinces you it is shifting back the other direction?

And given your current circumstances (removed from the household, temporarily) your non-legal options to prevent this sort of action again are zilch. And the likelihood of hit happening when you don't see it is much higher now.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.  That was what I was going for in marriage counseling.  She weakly said no punishment... . but nothing in writing.  She of course said she always keeps her word... . BS.

I don't get why you are ready to believe what she will put in writing, but not what she says verbally.

Is this something in YOUR internal believe structure, or is it something about her?

[formflier]

Two parts of the incident were shocking to me... . and I hope shocking to any that listen.

The loudness of the whacks.

And the screaming of the kids as they were being jerked around and whipped... . Three kids screaming at once... . me asking her to please stop... . and an enraged voice saying NO... THEY ARE GETTING A WHIPPING.

Yeah... . I need to think through the after DSS thing... . who knows. 

Anyone in North Carolina... or anywhere ever heard of an agreement about no corporal punishment... . when there have been concerns of one parent?

In the past... . the wife and I would challenge each other and talk prior to any punishment... . physical or otherwise.  We wanted to make sure that we were calm... were seeing this clearly... . and that we were punishing in a consisten manner.

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

I'm in North Carolina

Formflier, I did a quick look at case law in NC. Courts are looking for serious physical injury -- in an appeals case, beatings with a belt that resulted in bruises were not treated as child abuse.

I'm not a lawyer, but found this:

Section 7B-101(1) of the North Carolina Juvenile Code defines an abused juvenile as one whose parent has “inflicted upon the juvenile a serious physical injury.”

Allegations of abuse and neglect must be proven by clear and convincing evidence.  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 7B-805 (2005).  “In a non-jury [abuse and] neglect adjudication, the trial court's findings of fact supported by clear and convincing competent evidence are deemed conclusive, even where some evidence supports contrary findings.”

The case goes on to say that whippings and spanking that results in a bruise is not considered serious physical injury. In the case I found, the court found clear and convincing competence evidence of abuse, but the appellate court overturned and remanded the ruling.

After DSS does an investigation (let's say they conclude there was no evidence of child abuse), what are your next steps?

[formflier]

I suppose I would be arguining that this was not being done appropriately.

Due to jerking around, rage, screaming... .

Abuse includes infliction of a serious physical injury by other than accidental means; creating a substantial risk of such injury by other than accidental means; and using cruel or grossly inappropriate procedures or devices to modify behavior. Juvenile § 7B-101(1). [Civil Code]

North Carolina does allow parents to physically discipline their children. Following is the guidance that is within our Child Protective Services Manual for county Department of Social Services, parents and individuals to review and follow:

    "Parents have a right to discipline their children. Done appropriately, spanking and the use of corporal punishment are not considered child abuse. Corporal punishment, commonly referred to as physical discipline or spanking, is the application of physical force, including striking with the hand or with an object, against the body of another. However, significant trauma and tissue damage, such as bruises, welts, or lacerations may be signs of child neglect (inappropriate discipline) or child abuse, depending on the extent of the injuries.

    Factors to consider regarding bruising include: location and severity of the injury, child's age and developmental stage, and whether the bruises are consistent with normal play. Injuries such as these, not resulting from an accident, must be assessed. A definition of significant trauma is any injury beyond temporary redness of the skin. A practical guideline to use is that any inflicted injury which lasts more than 24 hours constitutes significant injury and requires an investigation."

    Thank you for contacting the DSS Website with your inquiry. If there is a need to contact this office again, I can be reached by phone at the number listed below or via e-mail.

    Valarie J.

    North Carolina Division of Social Services

www.kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp#ncarolina  Link to civil code: www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_7b/gs_7b-101.html

[formflier]

OK... so I think I see the question or thought that I didn't explain.

Reconciling or "going back"... . ain't going to happen... . UNLESS... there is clear and convincing evidence that there is a pattern of compliance in some form of Therapy. 

I think it will be obvious.  For past 5 years as soon as a counselor gets close to something... . she blows up... storms out and is "done".

The DSS "comply with counselor" rule that was part of the safe plan... . may be help here... . that means she is required to stay with same guy.  With every new counselor "it" comes out quicker... . this may be good because then the issue (BPD) will be out and treatment will start... . or she will bolt... . and draw the ire of DSS for skipping out.  I obviously still have a place in me that hopes for treatment.

But... . I'm NOT GETTING BACK ON THE CRAZY TRAIN... .



In all seriousness... . I had a good session with my individual T today.  I have been looking at myself as a buffer between her and kids.

I have a 1 year old.

Do the math... . 17 more years as a buffer... . even if it doesn't get any worse... . there is no way I can do that. 

I could see myself thinking if I had teenagers... . that maybe another year or two... I'm tough... . that kind of thing.

But not 17... . and if untreated... . it will get worse... . or so everyone says.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.

She is not going to take responsibility for any of this.  She may pretend to for a bit, then it will go back to the old status quo.

The disadvantage to waiting is that the recordings/incidents will become "stale" in the eyes of the law.  Your L can tell you how it works where you live.

BS is right, she will not stop.  She may get more covert in her "punishments".  Verbal abuse should be mentioned also as part of her promise.  I would not count on your children telling you about stuff if you are not there.

Right now you have something you almost certainly won't have the next time around if she plays her cards right - leverage.  You have leverage now because you have documentation that she's lost self-control when punishing the children.  Yes, it may not be enough to get you custody, but it might be enough to get a good Custody Evaluation done, it might be enough to start you off with equal time with the children, it might be enough for the court to grant you as a father a temporary order with more authority with the children than it would otherwise have done if you didn't have this incident at hand.  All I'm saying is that if you don't have an 'edge' or leverage then you'll likely face starting out being an alternate weekend father at best.

My fear:  Next time - and there will be a next incident of something - she'll make sure you're the one looking worse than her.  Part rejection, part retaliation, part projection, etc.

As quoted above, this recent incident means something now, maybe a 'concern' even if it is not considered child abuse, but a few weeks or months from now or if there's some settlement agreement now, then anyone looking back at it will consider it resolved, "stale" or not actionable.  Maybe it would count for history but don't hold your breath.

Apparently there is some question whether this will be considered or ruled child abuse.  Maybe all that will happen is that someone wags their finger at her this time.  BUT right now you look better than her, and that status is something that will dissipate over time

We can't tell you to divorce or to reconcile.  That's your decision based on all input including your lawyer's advice.  However, we can identify the risks we and our other members have experienced.  We see the all-too-familiar patterns and risks.  Whether you'll face them, a few or a lot, no one knows but the odds are high that much of what we've written applies in your case.

[Matt]

I think you are right to focus on corporal punishment, but I don't know if there is anything that will keep a parent from dealing with the kids as she thinks best, when they are with her.  All the ideas discussed here seem like good issues to learn about - the law about corporal punishment and whether a written agreement between the parents could be enforced somehow.

Let me suggest another aspect which is super-important:  Parenting time.

Ideally you will get temporary orders somehow - either by filing for divorce, or for a legal separation, or by some other legal means - so the kids will be with you most of the time, and with their mom only a little, and only with professional supervision.  That's what might be best, but it isn't very likely.

Next best might be 50/50 time, established by the court.

Next best might be with you less than half the time, but regularly, and established by the court.

Without some parenting plan established by the court, it is likely that you won't see your kids much, and they will be subject to more alienation.  Things will get worse.

This is the issue I think you should focus on most.  If you don't have court-ordered time with the kids, your wife will probably do whatever she wants and there won't be much you can do about it.

You need to establish a safe, calm, quiet home for the kids, even if they are only with you part of the time.  You need to be their rock in stormy waters.  You probably can't make those waters calm.

[Grey Kitty]

I hope it is never needed... . but if it continues to get worse (as I suspect)... . that if I have it in writing... . and she does it again... . then I start to have more leverage to "prove" to the world that she can't be trusted.

Thoughts on my thinking on this?

I don't see much point in it. *IF* things continue to get worse, your only remedies will be through the legal system.

I am not a lawyer, and haven't even personally been in a courtroom... . but I don't see the agreement itself really helping you in the sort of family court cases I've seen described on this board.

I see nothing wrong with a written agreement. I just don't see it as being important enough to make it your primary focus.

I completely agree that stopping her from beating (spanking?) your children like she did last time IS a priority.

Reconciling or "going back"... . ain't going to happen... . UNLESS... there is clear and convincing evidence that there is a pattern of compliance in some form of Therapy. 

This also makes sense to me.

[Turkish]

In all seriousness... . I had a good session with my individual T today.  I have been looking at myself as a buffer between her and kids.

I have a 1 year old.

Do the math... . 17 more years as a buffer... . even if it doesn't get any worse... . there is no way I can do that. 

formflier, I thought similarly (and my uBPDx was not near the rager like you). But then I thought to myself, "how damaging would it be to the kids (S3 and D1 when this started last summer) to see this dynamic as a normal relationship between two people? And how will it affect their future relationships, not just the romantic ones?"

The mother of my children started mirroring her own parents' dysfunctional relationship more and more, with the genders reversed (she was like her dad... . I was the long-suffering stable parent who wanted to protect the kids, or our family unit. At the end, I severed it, because I did not want this dynamic to pass onto another generation.

With my time, I can be who I want to be without walking on eggshells, afraid of triggering her, because that's what we become, their biggest triggers. She was angriest in the months before we left, and did take it out on the children. She actually got better once she left, because she was away from her trigger. Of course the kids when they get older will become bigger triggers, as I did for my BPD-like mother when I got older. I had no stable parent to balance that out.

I'm not telling you what to do, but just sharing my perspective on my family.

[catnap]

"In the past... . the wife and I would challenge each other and talk prior to any punishment... . physical or otherwise.  We wanted to make sure that we were calm... were seeing this clearly... . and that we were punishing in a consistent manner."

When did that begin to change? 

[Boss302]

You need to establish a safe, calm, quiet home for the kids, even if they are only with you part of the time.  You need to be their rock in stormy waters.  You probably can't make those waters calm.

Wow, exactly.

[formflier]

From talking to DSS on the phone... . it seems like they looked at kids.  Saw no marks.  Kids say they are fearful of Daddy... . and the make their initial triage assessment.

I should have just played the recording from my laptop without asking.  If it wasn't shocking to them... . it wouldn't have made it worse.  I don't think... .

I'm trying to get in front of DSS at new county today to get the recording listened to.

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

I'm in North Carolina

Formflier, I did a quick look at case law in NC. Courts are looking for serious physical injury -- in an appeals case, beatings with a belt that resulted in bruises were not treated as child abuse.

I'm not a lawyer, but found this:

Section 7B-101(1) of the North Carolina Juvenile Code defines an abused juvenile as one whose parent has “inflicted upon the juvenile a serious physical injury.”

Allegations of abuse and neglect must be proven by clear and convincing evidence.  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 7B-805 (2005).  “In a non-jury [abuse and] neglect adjudication, the trial court's findings of fact supported by clear and convincing competent evidence are deemed conclusive, even where some evidence supports contrary findings.”

The case goes on to say that whippings and spanking that results in a bruise is not considered serious physical injury. In the case I found, the court found clear and convincing competence evidence of abuse, but the appellate court overturned and remanded the ruling.

After DSS does an investigation (let's say they conclude there was no evidence of child abuse), what are your next steps?

[formflier]

I have been considering this as well... . that staying away will help calm things.

Figuring out "what is best" for the children is tough. 

It's not tough to figure out that the whipping event has to be stopped...

Working through it.

In all seriousness... . I had a good session with my individual T today.  I have been looking at myself as a buffer between her and kids.

I have a 1 year old.

Do the math... . 17 more years as a buffer... . even if it doesn't get any worse... . there is no way I can do that. 

formflier, I thought similarly (and my uBPDx was not near the rager like you). But then I thought to myself, "how damaging would it be to the kids (S3 and D1 when this started last summer) to see this dynamic as a normal relationship between two people? And how will it affect their future relationships, not just the romantic ones?"

The mother of my children started mirroring her own parents' dysfunctional relationship more and more, with the genders reversed (she was like her dad... . I was the long-suffering stable parent who wanted to protect the kids, or our family unit. At the end, I severed it, because I did not want this dynamic to pass onto another generation.

With my time, I can be who I want to be without walking on eggshells, afraid of triggering her, because that's what we become, their biggest triggers. She was angriest in the months before we left, and did take it out on the children. She actually got better once she left, because she was away from her trigger. Of course the kids when they get older will become bigger triggers, as I did for my BPD-like mother when I got older. I had no stable parent to balance that out.

I'm not telling you what to do, but just sharing my perspective on my family.

[formflier]

I'll give a bit more of an answer that asked for.

Looking back 15-20 years... . maybe I can see hints... . but somehting would pop up... . like a weird argument and then nothing would happen for months... maybe even a year.  I'm Christian... . we all have faults... . I am big on forgiveness... .   Forgive and forget and move on.

I'm probably a bit extreme on being "logical"... . people say I must have a spreadsheet in my head.  So... the nature of those odd arguments that I remember is that they were non-sensical... . relating things that have no relation and/or no cause and effect... . claiming to know things you can't possibley know as fact.

Well... . I'm also military... . so deployments and all that.  She knew she could hold it together and then I would be gone she could relax... etc etc (I didn't know this at the time... this is my analysis now).  Then she would miss me... homecoming was great... . a long "white" phase... . and probably about the time I was starting to turn black to her... . off I went again.

Long distance has always been good or easy for us.

Well... 2009 there was a natural disaster and we were out of house for about 6 months.  I was on shore duty at time.  Very stressful confusing time.

We lived with another family that had a massive house.  As we moved out... . she started accusing me of "looking" at the other lady... . wanting her... . all sorts of crazy ass stuff.  While there have been ups and downs since then... . the general trend line has been worse.

She is now in early 40s

We retired a couple years ago and started a "normal" life.  I don't leave now.  My guess is that this is incredibly stressfull for her. 

Now to the exact answer to the question on discipline.  I would say in the past year that she has started cutting me out.  I'm guessing about the same time that I started to get really uncomfortable with conflict in the house... . and wanting to make sure my PTSD didn't play a part. 

I haven't done any corporal punishment in maybe 6 months.  I don't remember exactly... . and didn't make a big deal of it.  I just started using more time outs and groundings.  I never issued a big statement about not doing it.


The scary stuff has been happening for a few months now.  Maybe every 2-3 weeks and a general trend towards scarier.  I was trying to SET and validate and all that... . because by now I knew about BPD.  Well... . I think as she realized she was loosing control of me... . she focused more on kids. 

I really never defined what I figured would be unacceptable... . just figured I would know it when I saw it or heard it.  I made a mistake by not researching laws about corporal punishment 

Well... . that about brings us to current time.

Thoughts?

"In the past... . the wife and I would challenge each other and talk prior to any punishment... . physical or otherwise.  We wanted to make sure that we were calm... were seeing this clearly... . and that we were punishing in a consistent manner."

When did that begin to change? 

[DreamGirl]

From an outside perspective,  with the kids not having marks, is there a possibility that this will be considered a difference in opinion as far as disciplining the children?

My exH spanks, I do not. I had no control over what happened when I wasn't there - and as long as he was within the confines of the law, it didn't matter how I feel about it. Divorce invokes a "no longer have to agree" mentality.

I just wonder if this claim is going to help or hurt your case. Giving it to you straight here, formflier. With the initial visit resulting in the way it did, it might not be the best idea to pursue it?

How is she otherwise as a mother? Are the kids bathed, fed? Their education?  

[Boss302]

How is she otherwise as a mother? Are the kids bathed, fed? Their education?  

Exactly.

[ForeverDad]

From talking to DSS on the phone... . it seems like they looked at kids.  Saw no marks.  Kids say they are fearful of Daddy... . and they make their initial triage assessment.

I should have just played the recording from my laptop without asking.  If it wasn't shocking to them... . it wouldn't have made it worse.  I don't think... .

I'm trying to get in front of DSS at new county today to get the recording listened to.

I think the point here is that the DSS made an assessment - that father leave - was based on what they saw and heard from the kids.  It's clear that the children are not just failing to disclose all, they're lying.  And DSS accepted it on face value.  SO what you want is that they realize they're not volunteering to reveal the entire situation.  Whether it is 'actionable' or not, you at least want the truth out there front and center.  Likely that would be enough to have them do at least one of the following: (1) withdraw their initial recommendation that father leave, (2) recommend the children get long term counseling and (3) recommend a custody evaluation if the family is separating or divorcing.

Note that the last one, a custody evaluation, probably can't or won't be done if there is no case in family court such as a divorce.

Some psychology on children at different ages... . Many pwBPD do okay with small children - the infants and toddlers need a lot of case.  But as the kids grow older they want and need a gradually increasing measure of independence and decision making.  So more and more it will become an issue with the pwBPD parent who must control and dictate not just on whims and moods of the moment but also whenever independence starts rearing its head.  So you have increasing conflict as the kids get older.  The children can react differently over time, some being victims and appeasers, some mirroring the pwBPD, after all, that's the example seen from the parents.  But a common response is that when outsiders walk in and ask what's happening, the children are more likely to protect the worst parent since that's the one they fear displeasing the most.  They've learned that when the outsiders leave, they're left with the parents and they'll get punished for any openness and honesty.  Also, there is some Stockholm Syndrome there too so even if not punished, they feel an emotional need to protect the parent with poor behaviors.

[livednlearned]

Need to get a clear legal understanding of the legal separation laws in North Carolina.  I think that technically you can't file for divorce until a year separation.  Don't know if that changes tactics or not.

Ignore the significance of the actual divorce being granted -- it is somewhat of a technicality in our cases.

When you have kids, the most important document is the temporary order. Talk through the following with your lawyer, but it goes something like this.

One of you would file a divorce complaint. The other files a counter complaint. These are somewhat ceremonial documents -- my judge didn't even read them. Everyone expects these documents to be inflammatory to some extent, even in low-conflict divorces.

Next, the lawyers will suggest mediation. Start a new thread on this board if you want input about the pros and cons of mediation with a BPD spouse.

In mediation, let's say you are able to settle the financial stuff, but not the custody, for example. Anything that isn't settled will go before a judge. Regardless of whether the two of you can decide on what happens with the kids, there will be some kind of visitation schedule put into place. This is the beginning of the status quo schedule that the courts will look at -- in general, they want everything to stay normal for the kids as much as possible. Also, they don't care at all how the two of you feel about each other. They expect you to be antagonistic. But if your antagonism impacts the kids, then they start to pay attention. I have found they don't care about antagonism prior to filing about divorce. They take notice when it starts to show up as a pattern in their court room. That can be hard to see if there are two reasonable lawyers filtering things.  

If custody has not been determined in mediation, any manner of things might happen. A custody evalutor might be assigned to your case, or a guardian ad litem. Counseling might be ordered for the kids. Both of you might go through psychiatric evaluations. This can take a long time, probably over a year if your courts are backlogged, and longer if your wife sees there are benefits to filing continuances. She may go through several lawyers, each of which will request time to come up to speed on the case. Meanwhile, whatever visitation arrangement and schedule is in place becomes status quo. That's why the very first schedule or visitation arrangement is so critical. They call it temporary, but it doesn't work that way.

So focus on what happens next. The actual legal document divorcing you from your wife is of very little consequence in many ways. What matters is the custody and financial arrangements you agree to, and that will start up within months of filing if not sooner.

[formflier]

When she is normal... . she is great... . when she is enraged... . bad.

DSS in reviewing the recordings now.

At this point... . for the DSS process... . it will play out however it plays out.  I just have to make my best case.

I have recordings of her coaching the kids on what to say to DSS... . "so they won't take you from me"

And the incident itself... where it seems clear she is in a rage.

However... . I really should have thought about the reviewing the law... . or looking for marks sooner.  In NC... . if no mark... . it's ok.

From an outside perspective,  with the kids not having marks, is there a possibility that this will be considered a difference in opinion as far as disciplining the children?

My exH spanks, I do not. I had no control over what happened when I wasn't there - and as long as he was within the confines of the law, it didn't matter how I feel about it. Divorce invokes a "no longer have to agree" mentality.

I just wonder if this claim is going to help or hurt your case. Giving it to you straight here, formflier. With the initial visit resulting in the way it did, it might not be the best idea to pursue it?

How is she otherwise as a mother? Are the kids bathed, fed? Their education?  

[formflier]

Yes... I agree with this.

And they are reviewing a recording of "coaching" the kids on what to say.

My goal here is to so that I acted to protect kids.

Goal is to "force" family to stay in counseling situation that includes counseling for uBPDw.  It will come out farily quickly... . and when she can't bolt from couseling room and say she isn't going to come back... . because that will raise ire of DSS.  Well... . that will be interesting... . I need to be ready for that. 

Not sure how to be ready... . so give me suggestions.

From talking to DSS on the phone... . it seems like they looked at kids.  Saw no marks.  Kids say they are fearful of Daddy... . and they make their initial triage assessment.

I should have just played the recording from my laptop without asking.  If it wasn't shocking to them... . it wouldn't have made it worse.  I don't think... .

I'm trying to get in front of DSS at new county today to get the recording listened to.

I think the point here is that the DSS made an assessment - that father leave - was based on what they saw and heard from the kids.  It's clear that the children are not just failing to disclose all, they're lying.  And DSS accepted it on face value.  SO what you want is that they realize they're not volunteering to reveal the entire situation.  Whether it is 'actionable' or not, you at least want the truth out there front and center.  Likely that would be enough to have them do at least one of the following: (1) withdraw their initial recommendation that father leave, (2) recommend the children get long term counseling and (3) recommend a custody evaluation if the family is separating or divorcing.

Note that the last one, a custody evaluation, probably can't or won't be done if there is no case in family court such as a divorce.

Some psychology on children at different ages... . Many pwBPD do okay with small children - the infants and toddlers need a lot of case.  But as the kids grow older they want and need a gradually increasing measure of independence and decision making.  So more and more it will become an issue with the pwBPD parent who must control and dictate not just on whims and moods of the moment but also whenever independence starts rearing its head.  So you have increasing conflict as the kids get older.  The children can react differently over time, some being victims and appeasers, some mirroring the pwBPD, after all, that's the example seen from the parents.  But a common response is that when outsiders walk in and ask what's happening, the children are more likely to protect the worst parent since that's the one they fear displeasing the most.  They've learned that when the outsiders leave, they're left with the parents and they'll get punished for any openness and honesty.  Also, there is some Stockholm Syndrome there too so even if not punished, they feel an emotional need to protect the parent with poor behaviors.

[ForeverDad]

When she is normal... . she is great... . when she is enraged... . bad.

DSS in reviewing the recordings now.

At this point... . for the DSS process... . it will play out however it plays out.  I just have to make my best case.

I have recordings of her coaching the kids on what to say to DSS... . "so they won't take you from me"

And the incident itself... where it seems clear she is in a rage.

You're doing what you reasonably can.  Be prepared for the children being prepped and coached for anything and everything.  Be prepared for the kids asking, "Why are you doing this to mom?" as though you're the aggressor.  After all, they're children, pardon me for saying this, likely they don't know what a normal family really is, what they've experienced is dysfunction and that is very confusing and misleading to say the least.

You're doing what you reasonably can.  Your children don't expect you to be Superman or Superwoman, leaping tall buildings in a single bound, stopping bullets in your teeth or letting them bounce off your eyeball.  They won't expect you to be perfect.  Don't guilt yourself for not being perfect or for not becoming informed and proactive sooner.  If in the years to come your kids ask, perhaps long after they've grown and gone, ":)id you try to protect me?" then you'll be able to reply, "Yes, I did, I did my reasonable best."

[livednlearned]

However... . I really should have thought about the reviewing the law... . or looking for marks sooner.  In NC... . if no mark... . it's ok.

If DSS doesn't find evidence of child abuse, it doesn't mean that your efforts have been wasted. Going forward, this is now part of the documentation about your efforts to protect the kids. If you file for divorce and the custody machinery starts moving forward, you'll most likely have a custody evaluation done. This is what Matt refers to as shining sunlight on the family dynamics, and if you have competent professionals involved, it can be more challenging for BPD sufferers to present their version of truth.

It can feel very disorienting in the beginning, but there are lots of people here, myself included, who patiently worked through the system until things got better. 

[Matt]

Goal is to "force" family to stay in counseling situation that includes counseling for uBPDw.  It will come out farily quickly... . and when she can't bolt from couseling room and say she isn't going to come back... . because that will raise ire of DSS.  Well... . that will be interesting... . I need to be ready for that.  

With all due respect, I think you may have the wrong goal.

Counseling for all is a very good thing, and it's very valid to look for a way to make sure the kids are getting the help they need - which means confidentiality between each child and the counselor.  It's also very valid to look for ways to help your wife get the help she needs.

Family counseling - everybody together - won't work, because your wife won't be able to participate honestly and constructively until she has been effectively treated.  That means years of intensive talk-therapy for her;  then she might be able to take part in constructive sessions with you and/or the kids.

She presumably has BPD or some other serious disorder.  It can only be treated when it has been diagnosed, and when she has decided that she wants to accept help.

My suggestion for you would be to shift your objectives to things that are more-or-less in your control, which will require you to understand much better how things work where you live (legal stuff I mean).

First, I think it is most important for you to get a court order establishing regular time with the kids.  The longer you are separated from the kids, the worse the alienation will be, and the harder it will be to re-establish good relationships with them.

Second, I think you should focus on getting objective psych evals of both parents, probably as part of a Custody Evaluation.  That will lift this from the mud you are in now - the DSS process which is obviously not thorough, professional or objective - to the level of an objective and thorough evaluation by an experienced professional.  A Ph.D. psychologist who has experience with situations like yours will see through your wife's BS and manipulations of the kids, and will look at all the information available, including the audio evidence.

You can make it go better by gathering all the relevant information to give to the CE when she is appointed.

I think you are still looking for a way to fix this quickly - maybe a few sessions of family therapy for example - and you are far, far beyond that point.

[Rapt Reader]

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