Tightening up the formation

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Thanks to all my wingmen... . and women out there.  Please keep it coming.

I think there is someway they can post a link to this new thread... that goes to the old thread... . to keep it together or easier to access.

If the board guys can do that... . I'd appricate it.

Answers to the thread that is copied and pasted below

I should have been a bit more clear on the counseling thing.  DSS is requiring that this continue... . and the family guy is going to work with parents individually as well. 

In the one session we had with him (find my old thread on the "ambush" counseling) the told us that the issues with the family are as a result of our (hubby and wife dysfunction).  And said he needed to deal with us 1 on 1 to get a better understanding of what is going on.

She volunteered me to go first... . and she is right after.  I'm going to make sure the appointment for her is scheduled when I go in next Tuesday.

So... in that respect... . she is stuck.  Either she bolts and DSS notices she is not complying... . or she deals with the counselor 1 on 1.  In the 5 years of this drama... . that has never happened. 

So... . I don't predict a quick victory... . but I do realize that we are heading into uncharted waters were "something" will happen.

What I see being set up in her mind is that she will have to pick between control of "her" kids... . (not wanting to mess up DSS) or  picking control of people getting close to her psych issues. 

Thanks again for all the help and keep it coming on the new thread.


With all due respect, I think you may have the wrong goal.

Counseling for all is a very good thing, and it's very valid to look for a way to make sure the kids are getting the help they need - which means confidentiality between each child and the counselor.  It's also very valid to look for ways to help your wife get the help she needs.

Family counseling - everybody together - won't work, because your wife won't be able to participate honestly and constructively until she has been effectively treated.  That means years of intensive talk-therapy for her;  then she might be able to take part in constructive sessions with you and/or the kids.

She presumably has BPD or some other serious disorder.  It can only be treated when it has been diagnosed, and when she has decided that she wants to accept help.

My suggestion for you would be to shift your objectives to things that are more-or-less in your control, which will require you to understand much better how things work where you live (legal stuff I mean).

First, I think it is most important for you to get a court order establishing regular time with the kids.  The longer you are separated from the kids, the worse the alienation will be, and the harder it will be to re-establish good relationships with them.

Second, I think you should focus on getting objective psych evals of both parents, probably as part of a Custody Evaluation.  That will lift this from the mud you are in now - the DSS process which is obviously not thorough, professional or objective - to the level of an objective and thorough evaluation by an experienced professional.  A Ph.D. psychologist who has experience with situations like yours will see through your wife's BS and manipulations of the kids, and will look at all the information available, including the audio evidence.

You can make it go better by gathering all the relevant information to give to the CE when she is appointed.

I think you are still looking for a way to fix this quickly - maybe a few sessions of family therapy for example - and you are far, far beyond that point.

[formflier]

Thanks to all my wingmen... . and women out there.  Please keep it coming.

I think there is someway they can post a link to this new thread... that goes to the old thread... . to keep it together or easier to access.

If the board guys can do that... . I'd appricate it.

Answers to the thread that is copied and pasted below

I should have been a bit more clear on the counseling thing.  DSS is requiring that this continue... . and the family guy is going to work with parents individually as well. 

In the one session we had with him (find my old thread on the "ambush" counseling) the told us that the issues with the family are as a result of our (hubby and wife dysfunction).  And said he needed to deal with us 1 on 1 to get a better understanding of what is going on.

She volunteered me to go first... . and she is right after.  I'm going to make sure the appointment for her is scheduled when I go in next Tuesday.

So... in that respect... . she is stuck.  Either she bolts and DSS notices she is not complying... . or she deals with the counselor 1 on 1.  In the 5 years of this drama... . that has never happened. 

So... . I don't predict a quick victory... . but I do realize that we are heading into uncharted waters were "something" will happen.

What I see being set up in her mind is that she will have to pick between control of "her" kids... . (not wanting to mess up DSS) or  picking control of people getting close to her psych issues. 

Thanks again for all the help and keep it coming on the new thread.


With all due respect, I think you may have the wrong goal.

Counseling for all is a very good thing, and it's very valid to look for a way to make sure the kids are getting the help they need - which means confidentiality between each child and the counselor.  It's also very valid to look for ways to help your wife get the help she needs.

Family counseling - everybody together - won't work, because your wife won't be able to participate honestly and constructively until she has been effectively treated.  That means years of intensive talk-therapy for her;  then she might be able to take part in constructive sessions with you and/or the kids.

She presumably has BPD or some other serious disorder.  It can only be treated when it has been diagnosed, and when she has decided that she wants to accept help.

My suggestion for you would be to shift your objectives to things that are more-or-less in your control, which will require you to understand much better how things work where you live (legal stuff I mean).

First, I think it is most important for you to get a court order establishing regular time with the kids.  The longer you are separated from the kids, the worse the alienation will be, and the harder it will be to re-establish good relationships with them.

Second, I think you should focus on getting objective psych evals of both parents, probably as part of a Custody Evaluation.  That will lift this from the mud you are in now - the DSS process which is obviously not thorough, professional or objective - to the level of an objective and thorough evaluation by an experienced professional.  A Ph.D. psychologist who has experience with situations like yours will see through your wife's BS and manipulations of the kids, and will look at all the information available, including the audio evidence.

You can make it go better by gathering all the relevant information to give to the CE when she is appointed.

I think you are still looking for a way to fix this quickly - maybe a few sessions of family therapy for example - and you are far, far beyond that point.

[Matt]

Here's your previous thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=226257.0

Just FYI, you can do that by going to the previous thread, and copying the URL in the top of your browser;  then come back to this thread and paste it into your post.

[Matt]

So... . one-on-one counseling for each of the parents could lead to your wife getting the help she needs.  I think you are right to follow through with this, because it might work, and because you will be seen as cooperative and committed.

A couple thoughts about how you could trip up... .

One is, you can be seen as taking no responsibility for the situation.  Many counselors assume that problems between spouses must be both parties' fault equally;  or they may say, "You both played roles in getting to this point and you both need to make changes to make things better."  That's true, as far as it goes, but it assumes that both parties are somewhat healthy psychologically;  if one party has BPD or something similar, but has not been diagnosed and is not getting the appropriate treatment, the other party cannot make the relationship work.  It's very possible she is not able to be in a functional relationship.

But you can't win by arguing with them.  Best to participate in a positive way, and take in what the counselor says, and genuinely look for things you can do to make things better.  You will probably learn some good things along the way.

Just don't think that the relationship will be fixed by this method.  And keep looking for a way to inject into the conversation - especially when you are talking one-on-one with the counselor - the concept that one party or the other may have a problem that needs to be diagnosed and treated.  Is that possible?  How can that be determined?  Can the marriage be fixed before that kind of problem is diagnosed and treated?

And look for ways to keep the focus on behaviors - what you did and what she did, and more importantly, what you both will be doing in the future.  This may lead to some of the things you have mentioned - a rock-solid agreement between you that there will be no corporal punishment, for example, and a rock-solid schedule for parenting time.

I would suggest you not consider living with your wife again, until she has been diagnosed and treated successfully, and you are sure that neither you nor the kids are at risk.  You will be depriving yourself and the kids of the opportunity to have a quiet, safe home, by having only one home with an adult in it who is prone to acting out.

"What I see being set up in her mind is that she will have to pick between control of "her" kids... . (not wanting to mess up DSS) or  picking control of people getting close to her psych issues." - I don't understand what you are saying here.  Can you please explain it another way... . ?

[formflier]

 

"What I see being set up in her mind is that she will have to pick between control of "her" kids... . (not wanting to mess up DSS) or  picking control of people getting close to her psych issues." - I don't understand what you are saying here.  Can you please explain it another


Yeah... ok... . before she was able to storm out on her counselor with no consequences... . other than those that I could impose... . basically nothing.

Now... . if she storms out on a counselor she is "not complying with" her counselor and DSS will take a harder look... . which could affect her time with the kids.

She obviously doesn't want anyone to find out about the borderline thing... . because she has stormed out before... . if she can't storm out because of fear of DSS... . then the borderline thing gets exposed.  And then there is no denying it.

So... right now that's the biggest thing that I can hang my hat on... .

[Matt]

How will "the borderline thing" be "exposed"?

My own experience with marriage counselors - four of them over the years, all chosen by my wife - was that the first three all took the "balanced" approach.  They counseled "better communication", which was great, and "both parties need to look at their roles in the problem", which is also fine.  None of them went anywhere near the subject of diagnosable psychological disorders.  Nothing was accomplished - a bunch of talk but nothing changed.

The fourth one surprised me.  Like yours, she met with both of us, and then with each of us separately.  When she and I talked, she told me she thought my wife might have BPD - I had never heard of BPD - and she suggested I read "Stop Walking On Eggshells".  That was a breakthrough for me, but not for my wife.  Ultimately it became clear that she was not interested in working on herself in any way, and I ended counseling, and proceeded with the divorce.

So it's not impossible that something worthwhile could come from family counseling or couples counseling, but I think it's more likely to be weak and "balanced", unless you can get the counselor to require you both to take the MMPI-2.

[formflier]

She will have to stay and face a counselor calling her out on being borderline... . or on a ridiculous behavior at some point.

This is a "family counselor"... . but he is going to work individually with each of us...

At some point every counselor has hit topics close to home and trigger her... . that is how it will be exposed.

How will "the borderline thing" be "exposed"?

My own experience with marriage counselors - four of them over the years, all chosen by my wife - was that the first three all took the "balanced" approach.  They counseled "better communication", which was great, and "both parties need to look at their roles in the problem", which is also fine.  None of them went anywhere near the subject of diagnosable psychological disorders.  Nothing was accomplished - a bunch of talk but nothing changed.

The fourth one surprised me.  Like yours, she met with both of us, and then with each of us separately.  When she and I talked, she told me she thought my wife might have BPD - I had never heard of BPD - and she suggested I read "Stop Walking On Eggshells".  That was a breakthrough for me, but not for my wife.  Ultimately it became clear that she was not interested in working on herself in any way, and I ended counseling, and proceeded with the divorce.

So it's not impossible that something worthwhile could come from family counseling or couples counseling, but I think it's more likely to be weak and "balanced", unless you can get the counselor to require you both to take the MMPI-2.

[Grey Kitty]

Stay focused on your ultimate goal; don't focus too much on specific battles or items that (might or might not) ultimately help you achieve what you want. I see your goal is to protect and care for your children. You may desire some things for/with your wife, but I see your first focus on your children.

Therapy for your children or wife might help... . or might be ineffective. Don't hang all your hopes on a golden bullet here.

Official or public disclosure of your wife's behavior or diagnosis isn't a golden bullet either. Once again, it could be helpful, but it alone won't do anything for your children.

There is a good chance that you will need to go to court to get custody/visitation with your children.

I still think you are doing the right thing putting effort into therapy, as it will help your credibility later... . and your wife's actions and/or diagnosis may work against her.

Is there a timeline for resolving the "temporary" DSS order keeping you out of the house?

I see getting back to spending time with your children as key to your goals. (Spending more time with your wife seems to be more risky.)

[formflier]

I did get the recording of the spanking and the coaching to the case worker at the next door county.

She is reviewing it.  There is some talk of interviews for everyone being over no later that Wed of next week.

I suppose the only thing that a face of with a counselor... . that she would have to accept... . is that it could finally pierce the nothing wrong with me shell... it's all you. 

Although... . my guess is she follows up with... . but it's not as bad as what you have... have done.

Stay focused on your ultimate goal; don't focus too much on specific battles or items that (might or might not) ultimately help you achieve what you want. I see your goal is to protect and care for your children. You may desire some things for/with your wife, but I see your first focus on your children.

Therapy for your children or wife might help... . or might be ineffective. Don't hang all your hopes on a golden bullet here.

Official or public disclosure of your wife's behavior or diagnosis isn't a golden bullet either. Once again, it could be helpful, but it alone won't do anything for your children.

There is a good chance that you will need to go to court to get custody/visitation with your children.

I still think you are doing the right thing putting effort into therapy, as it will help your credibility later... . and your wife's actions and/or diagnosis may work against her.

Is there a timeline for resolving the "temporary" DSS order keeping you out of the house?

I see getting back to spending time with your children as key to your goals. (Spending more time with your wife seems to be more risky.)

[Matt]

It's OK for us here to talk about "borderline traits" or "borderline behavior" or say that someone is "BPDish" - shorthand for "she is doing stuff that fits with what I know about BPD".

We use the term "uBPD" to mean someone who hasn't been diagnosed but seems to act like what we've heard about BPD.

It's another thing altogether, when you are sitting with a counselor, to suggest that your wife has BPD.  That probably won't have good results.

First, because you aren't qualified to diagnose her (and neither is anyone here).

Second, because if you had a Ph.D. in psychology, it would still be unethical for you to diagnose someone with whom you are personally involved.

Finally, using terms like BPD, or any other medical term, might sound like you are saying "she's bad and I'm good".  Even if that is objectively true - if you could show very clearly that she has acted wrongly and you haven't - it's not what most counselors want to hear.  They don't want to be prosecutors or judges.  They want to help you solve your problems through better communication.

So... . I'd strongly suggest you be careful about even mentioning BPD or any other medical term.

That doesn't mean you can't find a way to inject such an idea into the conversation.  But you may need to gently work toward a process that will make a diagnosis possible;  for example, if you can find out how the counseling process works - how many sessions, and what kind of outcome is expected - maybe there is a way to get the counselor to recommend that both parents take an objective psych eval like the MMPI-2.  Focus on the process (objective psych evals of both parents), not the outcome you expect or think is likely (your wife has BPD).

You can ask questions like, "Is it possible that either or both of us could have a problem that will make it impossible to make the marriage work, but maybe something that could be treated?  How can we find out if either or both of us should be getting some form of treatment?" etc.

I think it may also be fair - very carefully - to say, "I have heard from the kids that Ms. Flier has said things that sounded very depressed and maybe suicidal.  I'm concerned for her and the kids - if she has the kids without supervision, and if she is under a lot of stress, something very bad could happen.  What can we do to minimize that risk?"

Try not to sound like you are attacking her, or trying to win at her expense.

Let me give you a parallel example... .

Sometimes a member here will be dealing with someone who drinks a lot.  He may say, "She's an alcoholic!".  Maybe she is an alcoholic, but she hasn't been diagnosed by a doctor.  And being an alcoholic is not a crime;  in fact, the counselor or the judge on the case might be a recovering alcoholic.  It's a medical condition which can be treated.

So instead of saying "She's an alcoholic so I should have the kids!", he could ask for both parents to take drug/alcohol screening tests, and if her results show lots of drinking, then a reasonable solution might be a temporary shift in custody while she deals with that problem.  (And he may believe that she won't deal with it well, so the temporary change will become permanent.)

Try to look at it in an objective way, from the counselor's point of view, not a win/lose approach, while still expressing your valid concerns about the kids' wellbeing.

[Turkish]

She will have to stay and face a counselor calling her out on being borderline... . or on a ridiculous behavior at some point.

First, professionals though they are, they are still human beings, with their own unique styles. I've seen and heard of enough mental health professionals who have widely varying personal ways they approach therapy. Second, if a therapist has any experience dealing with PDs, a disorder dX isn't likely to "called out" so blatantly. With a Borderline, it can trigger intense reactions and bad behaviors. For instance, I talked with a T in the same HMO my uBPDx and I both have. I was told that they will not reveal the dX to a patient they suspect is BPD, but that they will gently work towards referring them to DBT. This can be a very long process, too, if a therapist can even get to that point, even assume a willing patient.

[ForeverDad]

At my first session with my custody evaluator, he bluntly told me he wasn't there to diagnose anyone, just to recommend custody and parenting to the court.  Sure enough, the initial report didn't mention anything abuse a diagnosis or even mention of "personality disorders".  He did mention her tangential thinking.  He did mention she delayed the report when she insisted on answering test questions in her FOO (family of origin) language despite being born in USA, living in USA half her childhood and never leaving the USA since we married some 15 years prior.  Oh, and she was certified to be both a medical and legal translator.   However, that paled into insignificance next to his summary statement that she could not share 'her' child but father could and she should lose her temp custody immediately.

Yes there are some high profile cases that get publicized in the news where a spouse or parent is diagnosed BPD but it seems most members here don't report a spouse or ex-spouse with a diagnosis and of those who do they are often described as troubled and low-functioning, in and out of jails, hospitals or mental health programs.  In other words, that smaller percentage have a long history of encounters with the police, hospitals and social services.

In the past there was another reason for not making a diagnosis or making an alternate one of Bipolar, PTSD, etc... . insurance companies would refuse to pay for long term therapy since Borderline had been considered largely untreatable.  That may have changed now, but you still can't count on getting a diagnosis.  Courts and the professional generally instead look at the behaviors and behavior patterns.  You should do likewise.  Don't "play doctor".  Focus on documenting the behaviors and behavior patterns.

[Matt]

The counselor who told me about BPD - she didn't diagnose my wife, she just read the BPD section of the DSM (diagnostic and statistical manual of the American Psychiatric Institute, or something like that) to me, and asked me, ":)oes that sound like Mrs. Matt?".  She told me that she was not qualified to diagnose anybody, and a meaningful diagnosis would require testing.

She also told me that she would not mention BPD to my wife, and that I shouldn't mention it either.

Later, after I gave up on counseling and moved forward with the divorce, I disclosed all this to my lawyer, and it was a topic of the Custody Evaluation.  But at the stage you are at, I would be amazed if the counselor would "call out" anybody for anything.

And remember, having BPD is not a choice someone has made.  It's a disorder that is believed to be linked to emotional trauma - like a feeling of abandonment - in childhood.  For example, my wife's mother died when she was a baby, and her father drank, and took his kids to live with relatives of a different race, in a different state - a pretty difficult thing for a child to understand.

So, although my wife's behavior has been very harmful to me and the kids (and to her too), and I do think she should take responsibility for it and get treatment, when it was diagnosed nobody "called her out" for it - just the opposite.  It was buried in a long report from the Custody Evaluator, and I was told not to mention it directly (though it was a critical factor in figuring out what's best for the kids).

So... . careful how you talk about BPD to anybody but your attorney (or your friends here)!

[Boss302]

I'm going to agree with the other posts here 100%. Don't start labeling her borderline with DSS or the courts unless you have a diagnosis in hand. But the good news (well, in a way of thinking, anyway) is that is that BPDs' behaviors are often so off-the-rails bad that no one needs to see a specific diagnosis to figure out that something is wrong. Since stressful situations are a huge trigger for these folks, and a high conflict divorce is nonstop stress, I wouldn't be surprised if your wife does something to completely, utterly blow it. With my ex, it was stuff like not sending the kids to school, housing instability, and deplorable living conditions. And she did that all on her own.

By the time all was said and done, no one needed a BPD diagnosis to know she was the wrong candidate for primary custody.

Keep close tabs on your kids and make sure you're there if they need you. And hang in there! I've said this before and I'll say it again: high conflict divorces are WARS, and if wars were won after the first battle, we'd be singing "God Save The Queen" before baseball games.

[Matt]

I'm going to agree with the other posts here 100%. Don't start labeling her borderline with DSS or the courts unless you have a diagnosis in hand. But the good news (well, in a way of thinking, anyway) is that is that BPDs' behaviors are often so off-the-rails bad that no one needs to see a specific diagnosis to see something is wrong. Since stressful situations are a huge trigger for these folks, I wouldn't be surprised if your wife does something to completely, utterly blow it. With mine, it was stuff like not sending the kids to school, housing instability, and deplorable living conditions. And she did that all on her own.

By the time all was said and done, no one needed a BPD diagnosis to know she was the wrong candidate for primary custody.

Hang in there!

Super-good point.  One strategy is to look for ways to put the person with BPD under stress, in front of a judge or another neutral professional, so her behavior will come out.  (Not a strategy to fix the marriage of course - a strategy to get her issues out in the open so you can get to the best outcome for the kids.)

[Boss302]

I'm going to agree with the other posts here 100%. Don't start labeling her borderline with DSS or the courts unless you have a diagnosis in hand. But the good news (well, in a way of thinking, anyway) is that is that BPDs' behaviors are often so off-the-rails bad that no one needs to see a specific diagnosis to see something is wrong. Since stressful situations are a huge trigger for these folks, I wouldn't be surprised if your wife does something to completely, utterly blow it. With mine, it was stuff like not sending the kids to school, housing instability, and deplorable living conditions. And she did that all on her own.

By the time all was said and done, no one needed a BPD diagnosis to know she was the wrong candidate for primary custody.

Hang in there!

Super-good point.  One strategy is to look for ways to put the person with BPD under stress, in front of a judge or another neutral professional, so her behavior will come out.  (Not a strategy to fix the marriage of course - a strategy to get her issues out in the open so you can get to the best outcome for the kids.)

The hard part is watching your kids suffer through it. Having to sit by while my BPDx allowed my D17 to sit out her entire freshman year, and half her sophomore year, of high school, was unbelievably hard to do. She had her enrolled in an online school, and wouldn't you know it, there were just zillions of excuses why she couldn't attend - computer wasn't working, Internet was out, it was Tuesday... . you name it. I work out of my home, and have perfectly good internet and a laptop she could have used, but amazingly enough, "mom" didn't avail herself of that opportunity. She had temporary custody - there was not much I could do but sit back and watch the train wreck unfold. Sad that this is how it had to play out, but the kid was able to get back on track, and just graduated high school on time last week. She's starting college in the fall. Kids are pretty resilient creatures.

[livednlearned]

I see your goal is to protect and care for your children. You may desire some things for/with your wife, but I see your first focus on your children.

This is probably the hardest and most important lesson for members who are teetering on divorce. When kids aren't involved, spouses can emotionally detach on their own timeline without a bunch of professionals sitting in the front row watching. But when kids are involved, suddenly your ability to manage your emotions takes on a lot more urgency.

Basically, you have to work on being detached when you probably are the furthest from feeling that way.

Courts do not care how you feel about your wife, whether you love her/hate her, whether she is mean to you, whether you walk out on her in church, whether she storms out of therapy, whether she lies to you, etc. They. Just. Don't. Care. The courts are not judging which one of you is causing marital problems.

What they're watching is who is the grown-up who can focus on what is best for the kids.

Of course, those of us here care about the behavior of the BPD spouse. We care a lot. And we know that the BPD behaviors impacts the kids. But the court system is woefully ignorant about BPD.

Documenting a pattern of behavior is more important than having a diagnosis. That doesn't mean you don't want the BPD diagnosed, it just means that there are a lot of factors at work, and the diagnosis is just one of them. The words BPD should never leave your lips until someone who is trained to diagnose it does so. Otherwise it looks like you are gunning for your wife. Your job is to focus on the kids, take care of your self, keep your emotions in check, and document the pattern of behavior that worries you -- and only in relation to how it impacts the kids.

It's a tall order.

If you tend to react angrily, or lose your temper, or do impulsive things you regret later -- figure out a system that will help you center yourself before taking any action. I think I walked 3,000 miles in an effort to do this. It helped prevent me from writing any emails to my ex. As a result, I had over 10K angry abusive emails from him, and he had none from me.

[formflier]

Calling her out on her BPD behavior

I probably created some confusion by using this phrase.  I like the phrase "putting her under stress" so it will come out.

I never envisioned someone saying... . ahhh haaaa... you have BPD.  What normally happens is uBPDw says something ridiculous... such as "He has a plan to emotionally abuse me and Make me feel bad.  I then say something like how could you accuse me of emotional abuse... give an example.  She then says... . "I never said you emotionally abuse me".

Counselor then says "Mrs Formflier... . yes you did just say that... . i sat right here and listened to you say it about 2 minutes ago".

Mrs formflier gets up and stomps around the room claiming the counselor always takes my side.  She's not going to put up with this any more... . and I will never be in this room with you two again  Wham... the door slams... . and out she goes.

Anyone think I made that up?

That would be something that I would consider "calling out".  So... she will either have to control herself better... . or... . hand over some ammo to DSS and other authorities by walking out.  I would be shocked if she can hold it together for too long with the same counselor.

One final note that I count as a blessing.  My uBPDw is pretty high functioning.  So... . in the short run I don't see anything too weird happning such as refusing to get medical treatment, taking kids out of school and that kind of thing.  I will watch and pay attention.

I say this is a blessing because I talked to a buddy of mine (squadron mate from long time ago) that "proved" his ex wife unfit and he was awarded sole custody.  At least that is the story I heard.  He explained to me that he didn't prove anything.  He just kept carefuly records... . watched and reported... . and she proved herself incompetent.  The sucky thing was that their kid suffered through it as she did all kinds of whacky things like not getting him medical care.

[formflier]

Yep... . I have had several conversations... . one with the VA Psychologist... . about what I need to focus on and do that I don't fit the stereotype of the angry service man with untreated PTSD.

The VA also helped me put this in perspective and gave me some advice on how to speak to my PTSD if it is brought up as a "bad thing"

They stressed that it is neither a good or bad thing... . it is an wound that you recieved while serving your country in a time of war.  None of that makes you a bad parent or husband.  If the record showed that your refused treatment for that or you somehow didn't follow doctors orders... . then people might be able to make the argument that your refusal or mistreatment could be a basis for a custody issue... . but never the original wound. 

They followed up by saying that there is nothing in my record on my interaction with any of them that would make them want to write any statement about me not following treatment or being a risk as a care taker of my children.


Final editorial statment for today... . since I mentioned the VA.  I have recieve excellent care for all of my issues from them.  I honestly don't get what the current scandal is about that seems to be in the news.

I see your goal is to protect and care for your children. You may desire some things for/with your wife, but I see your first focus on your children.

This is probably the hardest and most important lesson for members who are teetering on divorce. When kids aren't involved, spouses can emotionally detach on their own timeline without a bunch of professionals sitting in the front row watching. But when kids are involved, suddenly your ability to manage your emotions takes on a lot more urgency.

Basically, you have to work on being detached when you probably are the furthest from feeling that way.

Courts do not care how you feel about your wife, whether you love her/hate her, whether she is mean to you, whether you walk out on her in church, whether she storms out of therapy, whether she lies to you, etc. They. Just. Don't. Care. The courts are not judging which one of you is causing marital problems.

What they're watching is who is the grown-up who can focus on what is best for the kids.

Of course, those of us here care about the behavior of the BPD spouse. We care a lot. And we know that the BPD behaviors impacts the kids. But the court system is woefully ignorant about BPD.

Documenting a pattern of behavior is more important than having a diagnosis. That doesn't mean you don't want the BPD diagnosed, it just means that there are a lot of factors at work, and the diagnosis is just one of them. The words BPD should never leave your lips until someone who is trained to diagnose it does so. Otherwise it looks like you are gunning for your wife. Your job is to focus on the kids, take care of your self, keep your emotions in check, and document the pattern of behavior that worries you -- and only in relation to how it impacts the kids.

It's a tall order.

If you tend to react angrily, or lose your temper, or do impulsive things you regret later -- figure out a system that will help you center yourself before taking any action. I think I walked 3,000 miles in an effort to do this. It helped prevent me from writing any emails to my ex. As a result, I had over 10K angry abusive emails from him, and he had none from me.

[Matt]

Not to get side-tracked, but last week a report was issued, which backed up what several "whistleblowers" had said - people who work for the VA.  What the Inspector General's report showed was that thousands of veterans had not been seen in a timely way - in some cases, after months of waiting, they were never seen at all - and some of them had died as a result.

And dozens of VA facilities around the country had created false records, showing that all vets were being seen within 2 weeks.  So the problem didn't get fixed because it was covered up.

But I'm glad you got good care.  And my thanks for your service!

Back to the subject at hand... .

It can be a very good thing to put someone who has BPD under stress, when her behavior can be seen by a judge, Custody Evaluator, etc.  Many of us have experienced this working in our favor;  the person with BPD acts out and everyone in the room - including her own attorney - then "gets it".

But you need to be careful when and how you do that.

If you do it in court, your attorney can be the bad guy.

But if you do it in counseling, you have to do it yourself, and you might look just as bad as the other party.  The counselor might conclude that something you're doing is "triggering" her, and that by doing that you are partly responsible for her behavior.

I'm not agreeing with that - I think adults are responsible for their behavior and it's not my job to figure out the exact right things to say or not say so my ex won't act out.  But that's me.

It might be best to let the counselor take the lead, and be prepared to speak for and about yourself, and let the other party do the same.  For example, it might be good to be prepared to state very clearly what are your goals now - is it to fix the marriage?  Or to disengage from the relationship and focus on protecting the kids?  Or some other goals that you can state very clearly.

Same with boundaries - it might be helpful to think through and be prepared to state boundaries you have decided are right for you.  For example, "I will not be threatened or bullied.  If you speak to me inappropriately, I will end the conversation and communicate with you only by e-mail."  Or "I will not be where you are unless there are other adults around.  I will not come into your home or allow you into my home until I am sure you aren't going to act out."  Just examples - not saying that's what's right for you.

About PTSD... . I think you're getting good advice about how to think about it.  Let me give you my experience which is kind of parallel.

When we had our psych evals, mine came back with no disorders, but an indication that I was at high risk for addiction.  This was a surprise to me, since I wasn't drinking or using any other drugs, so I asked the psychologist about it, and he said it reflected my personality - people who scored on the MMPI-2 similar to me have a high incidence of addiction.  I asked what I should do about it and he said, "Well you're not drinking or using drugs, right?  And you're seeing a counselor regularly, right?  So keep doing exactly what you're doing."  In the custody case, this was a positive for me, because it showed that I was taking responsibility and taking care of myself, in contrast to my wife, who was diagnosed with "multiple psychological disorders" but refused treatment.

So... . you were wounded serving your country, and you have gotten the right treatment, and you're doing fine.  If there is any indication that the other side is trying to make an issue of this, you and your lawyer should be very well prepared to take them on very openly - not defensive at all - "My client is handling this issue exactly as he has been advised to do, and there is no evidence that it is negatively impacting the kids at all."

[formflier]

So... . you were wounded serving your country, and you have gotten the right treatment, and you're doing fine.  If there is any indication that the other side is trying to make an issue of this, you and your lawyer should be very well prepared to take them on very openly - not defensive at all - "My client is handling this issue exactly as he has been advised to do, and there is no evidence that it is negatively impacting the kids at all."

The PTSD story has been spread all over the family... . as the reason for all our difficulties.  I don't hide PTSD... . but I don't advertise it either.  uBPDw was the one that spread it around.  Also... there was one "incident" a couple years ago where 911 was called on me.  I had driven all day while for most of the day my uBPDw sleep as did rest of family.  Long trip.

We get home... . and fairly quickly I'm interested in going to bed... . of course she is wide awake and ready to b___ and moan about something... . no gratitude for trip or driving.  There must have been a lull in conversation... . but I doze off... who knows how long.  It's all pretty fuzzy... . but she apparently is griping about how much I hate her... . despise her... etc etc... .   She right next to me... . or looking down on me... . again it's fuzzy... . but as I jerk up from being asleep... . I may... or may not have touched her at the same time I start hollering at her to shut her mouth (I probably put some more color to it than that)... .   I kept hollering at her to get out of room... . Can't remember if she left and called... . or called from the room.  Deputies showed up... . verified no injuries... . and asked if I would mind leaving.  I was worn out... . and went to a hotel to sleep.

Apparently several kids heard the commotion but stayed in their rooms.  So the story most likely is that mommy was normal but daddy flipped out on mommy... . poor mommy.  Or some such story.

My anger issues come out of loss of sleep.  PTSD affects my sleep... . as do some other disability issues I have... . so tossing a wife in there with BPD traits is no good.

Before I knew about BPD it was obvious to me that I would just have to ignore the late night thing... . and it had got much... much better.  But would occasionally still come up.  I normally just wait it out... . and with no response it goes away in a few minutes.

Last... . I do need to do some clear thinking about limits... . what I will and won't accept.

I don't think any of that matters because without her addressing whatever the issues are... . I don't see me going back to her.

[catnap]

Concerning the 911 incident two years ago, I would suggest you contacting the sheriff's office to see if a report was ever generated.  Something to add to your documentation.  A lot of documenting is being able to correct an untruthful statement quickly, before all that is remembered is that Mrs. Flier had to call 911 on you. 

[KateCat]

Going forward, are you now able to protect your sleep from this type of interruption? Are you either at your parents' house or in your own room, maybe with a lock, back at home? You might start feeling stronger soon, if you can protect yourself in this critical way.

It kind of sounds like you returned to a "war at home," and it might be especially difficult for veterans to recognize domestic abuse when they've been through wars of nations.

Getting healing sleep must be a major recommendation for recovery from PTSD, no?

[Matt]

Regarding the 911 call... .

Quite a few of us have been accused of something.  In your case there were no criminal charges, which is very good.  I like Catnap's idea about getting a copy of the "incident report" - that's what it's called where I live.  I had to pay $5 and wait a few days, and when I got it, it had been redacted - my kids' names were blacked out, which was ridiculous since I already know my own kids' names.  But the report was super-helpful to me - it proved that my wife was lying.

In your case, the report might not prove anything, but it will at least not prove anything;  that is, if the incident is brought up by the other party, you can say, "Here's the police report.  It shows that there was no evidence I did anything wrong."  You might even be able to turn it around and use it to your benefit:  "Mrs. Flier called 911 and made false accusations which caused a lot of stress for the kids and me.  We need psych evals to find out why she does stuff like that."

It sounds to me like you have a good understanding of your issues, and you are able to manage them well.  Part of managing your issues may be, don't be around people who get in your face when you're tired.  Now you have identified someone who does that - your wife - so you can decide not to be around her when you're tired.

[livednlearned]

Formflier,

I'm trying to understand how DSS is working in your case. In your original thread when things were unraveling, you wrote:

The DSS "comply with counselor" rule that was part of the safe plan... . may be help here... . that means she is required to stay with same guy.  With every new counselor "it" comes out quicker... . this may be good because then the issue (BPD) will be out and treatment will start... . or she will bolt... . and draw the ire of DSS for skipping out.  I obviously still have a place in me that hopes for treatment.

What does signing the safety plan mean -- does it mean that you and your wife agree that the kids were not safe?

Did the social worker assigned to your case let you see the scoring and rubrics to determine the safety/risk assessment?

EDIT: Also, did the social worker ask if either parent had a mental health diagnoses?



 

[formflier]

And this would be an example of why this board is so incredibly valuable to me.

I hadn't thought of that.  Will try to get copies of those reports.

I am so happy I can come on this forum and ask questions, as I remember incidents I can relate them... and then I can answer questions of those that have... . unfortunately... . done this before me.

Thanks catnap!

Concerning the 911 incident two years ago, I would suggest you contacting the sheriff's office to see if a report was ever generated.  Something to add to your documentation.  A lot of documenting is being able to correct an untruthful statement quickly, before all that is remembered is that Mrs. Flier had to call 911 on you. 

[formflier]

Going forward, are you now able to protect your sleep from this type of interruption? Are you either at your parents' house or in your own room, maybe with a lock, back at home? You might start feeling stronger soon, if you can protect yourself in this critical way.

It kind of sounds like you returned to a "war at home," and it might be especially difficult for veterans to recognize domestic abuse when they've been through wars of nations.

Getting healing sleep must be a major recommendation for recovery from PTSD, no?

Right now I am at my parents house.  So... totally good with sleep here.  If I do ever move back home... yeah... that is something to address.  I had mad the middle of the night thing about 90% better through limits... basically ignoring it.

I agree aobut the war at home thing.  Even worse though... is that you never knew if you were dealing with enemy or friend.  In all seriousness... . up until just recently... . the good outweighed the bad.  I may not still be thinking clearly about that... . and that is something I really need to spend some time doing... before... . or if... . I ever choose to go back.

About sleep and PTSD... . yes... sleep is always good... for everyone.  In my particular case... . sleep is where PTSD "presents".  My hyperarousal ... . if I said that right... . happens due to sound while I'm sleeping.  So... . some noise happens... . my brain "switches me to alert"... . and I wake up.  Luckily... . during the day... I don't seem to have any triggers.  Loud noises... people... .  

I can also have some lovely dreams sometime... .

Well... . they have a drug for high blood pressure that they have also found works well for PTSD.  Prazosin somehow makes it so that I don't do the hyper arousal thing in my sleep.  I have normal blood pressure... luckily... so it lowers it to below normal.  Soo... . I have to make sure I get up slowly.

[formflier]

It sounds to me like you have a good understanding of your issues, and you are able to manage them well.  Part of managing your issues may be, don't be around people who get in your face when you're tired.  Now you have identified someone who does that - your wife - so you can decide not to be around her when you're tired.

Exactly... .

I had become unapologetic for just going to bed.  Sometimes if it was a tough day and she was grumbly or worse... I wouldn't even tell her... I would just go.  Sometimes if I tried to tell her... that would trigger and argument.

It's only been in the last few years that the sleep stuff has really flared up.  This is where there may be some legitimate complain on her... . or any spouses part... . about having to deal with disabilities that appear later in life.  Especially ones that you can't readily "see". 

Not trying to excuse her... . but I'm sure my not being able to be as flexible with her as I used to be in the past probably help "trigger" her more.

[Matt]

My dad was in Korea.  He flew a MASH helicopter, like the one at the start of the TV show.

Til he died, he hated loud noises.  Would never go to fireworks on the 4th.

I don't know if that kind of stuff can be treated somehow - some form of talk therapy... . ?

I hope you don't have to be on meds long-term... .

It's pretty common for someone with BPD to try to keep you from sleeping.  Not sure exactly why but lots of us have had that experience a little or a lot.  With me it wasn't a big factor but it happened.  A pretty clear sign of something screwed up when somebody won't just let you sleep when you need to.

[formflier]

Formflier,

I'm trying to understand how DSS is working in your case. In your original thread when things were unraveling, you wrote:

The DSS "comply with counselor" rule that was part of the safe plan... . may be help here... . that means she is required to stay with same guy.  With every new counselor "it" comes out quicker... . this may be good because then the issue (BPD) will be out and treatment will start... . or she will bolt... . and draw the ire of DSS for skipping out.  I obviously still have a place in me that hopes for treatment.

What does signing the safety plan mean -- does it mean that you and your wife agree that the kids were not safe?

Did the social worker assigned to your case let you see the scoring and rubrics to determine the safety/risk assessment?

EDIT: Also, did the social worker ask if either parent had a mental health diagnoses?

That makes two of us trying to figure this out!

Safety plan:  This was a document that my wife and I signed at the end of our assessment.  The assessment is where we drove down to the building at night and the kids were interviewed and the parents were informed.

It seems that this is an initial document that says... . while the investigation is going on... . this is what needs to happen to keep everyone safe.

There were two things put down.

I leave the home.

We both "comply with our counselors"

I tried to get no corporal punishment put on there... . they refused.


I don't think there was a formal scoring done... . just interviews and judgement calls.  That is my assumption... . and I didn't ask if otherwise.

They didn't formally ask about either of us having conditions... . but the PTSD thing was mentioned by some of my kids.

So it was discussed.

[KateCat]

I too feel you show a number of signs of resilient mental health. And if you are already able to contemplate the fact that your thinking may continue to evolve as you move forward, that's a very good sign indeed.

(And my dad was on a submarine in the South Pacific in World War II. . . . You guys have really experienced some stuff.)