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Author Topic: Are NON's too weak ?  (Read 666 times)
Fanie
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« on: June 14, 2014, 04:16:27 AM »

Maxsterling posted

Me?  I'm quite ADD, shy, and quiet, and always have been. GF interprets that as a "lack of communication skills" on my part,

I am "a flight" she is a "fight" (I am oft she is "tougher" (but not real terms?))

She blames be for not "taking control"

She does not mean I must fight - that I know - simply be the "leader" !

Shouldn't we learn how to be "leaders" of the whole family ?

are not too many things in the relationship "open ended" (grey areas)

Too much consultation / negotiations ?

Maxsterling: Im asking "lack of leadership from us ?"
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maxsterling
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 12:27:34 PM »

A reasonable question.  But through the experience of this r/s and a previous r/s, I know that being "strong" in terms of taking charge would get me nowhere.  First, I would be someone that I wouldn't want to be.  Second, the "strength" would just lead me to end things, and not put up with this nonsense.  "Strength" in this case would mean doing things for me and letting go of guilt about how she may feel. 
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wilsonian
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2014, 01:48:39 PM »

I agree with max... . if I were to force the boundaries and attitude then I would receive it back 10 fold with my BPDw... . We are pretty faith based couple and she bucks as I call it even concerning spiritual decision I make for our home... So in my situation anyway it wouldnt be a flight... . fight she would see it as a fight... fight and the thing I remember is I am the one who has power over me and what I say to avoid it... . So wouldnt say I am the weaker one... just we are the ones who need to go the extra mile to have peace in our lives when we can control the situation... . Dont know about you I would rather have peace then rage any day... .
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2014, 05:28:26 PM »

I wanted peace but at what cost. I was a nice guy, go with the flow, and quiet. Now I am a short fused, angry, and will not tolerate BS.

I snapped, I was done fighting with myself.

Remember the saying. Treat people the way you want to be treated. I threw that out the door. My motto is "I will treat you how you treat me".

I know I am far gone not much hope for me I am just being honest and real.

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an0ught
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 10:04:19 AM »

Good questions Fannie,

Excerpt
Are NON's too weak ?

My personal view is that the folks on this board are not weak. It takes a lot of strength to maintain a relationship with a pwBPD.

Now if one would ask me how it comes that a lot of us feel so weak if they are so strong I would point to a lack of skills. People are not using their strength in the most effective manner. And yes a lot of us here are exhausted and acting weak. But we have been strong and can become again so.

Excerpt
Shouldn't we learn how to be "leaders" of the whole family ?

Yes and no. We first and foremost have to start leading ourselves. Simply making the scope smaller makes the goal so much more achievable. It is worth remembering that leading does not mean dragging everyone along with us - leaders are followed and the energy for following comes from the followers budget.

Excerpt
are not too many things in the relationship "open ended" (grey areas)

Sure a lot of things are grey. But it is also true that we have to take at times positions which are concrete and not grey. And then wait, nudge and sometimes push the others around us fall in place if order is to emerge. We may be flexible but that does not absolve us from making decisions. Our decisions may impact others but not making decision if we are in the best position has a negative impact on everyone. Not making decisions may be forcing or enabling decision making by someone less qualified or with a lower ownership stake.

The way I see it is that society has evolved and basic rules have been established like "Treat people the way you want to be treated" which is based on Reciprocity - a basic psychological principle at work in the fabric of our society. Now when dealing with a at times disordered individual we can not rely on some of these basic rules. A subset of the rules still works but it may not be so obvious and some other rules work at times. The LESSONS can help to give some guidance on what works and what not.

Excerpt
Remember the saying. Treat people the way you want to be treated. I threw that out the door. My motto is "I will treat you how you treat me".

Tit for tat is of course in some way validating - aggression is met with aggression. With one party prone to unlimited escalation however it may not be a stable set-up. Certainly it is not healthy. Still it may be leading to less escalation than being a doormat as being passive in the face of aggression can be invalidating.

The challenge for us here is to find a third way. Not being doormat and not getting into a retaliation frame of mind. Blunting aggression with boundaries and validating depressed and aggressive behavior is an important part of it.

Excerpt
I [... . ] go with the flow,

If the flow is going round circles this strategy may lead down the drain. But knowing where we want to go, setting out and fighting for it may well be another important learning. A lot of us are co-dependent and are really good in aligning ourselves. We have to learn to do more and we have to learn it in very difficult circumstances.

We may be exhausted but we are not weak. A big part is how to use our energy effectively (skills) and to know which conflicts are worth fighting and being able to avoid the ones which are not. Avoiding conflicts is not leading us anywhere good, just reacting to conflicts brought to our shores is not leading anywhere either.

Excerpt
I wanted peace

Excerpt
I snapped,

We are dealing with a conflict prone partner and embracing the partner is to a degree embracing conflict. We have however a choice in how well we master conflict.

A good starting point to get better are workshops on boundaries. Boundaries are under our control and properly thought through focus our mind on the things we can decide and what consequences these decisions may bring with them. Mastering boundaries goes a long way mastering ourselves and managing conflicts.

This is not at all advocating more conflicts  Smiling (click to insert in post). We all know conflict is costly. But then conflict can also bring about some positive change. A lot of our attitude towards conflicts may well have been shaped in earlier times of our life. Some of us had negative experiences, some of us lack experiences and some of us adopted believes from other without much awareness.

It is worth reflecting what we have learned and where we may be lacking.
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gloveman
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2014, 12:43:19 PM »

"Strength" in this case would mean doing things for me and letting go of guilt about how she may feel."

That is so true. I had to learn how to let go of guilt and I guess ignore my parents feelings in order to be able to ":)o things for me."

Don't know how to use quotes yet, so this is confusing. Are there instructions somewhere?
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HopefulDad
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 11:55:06 AM »

With BPD, there is no winning strategy... .

If you try to take a "leadership" role, you will constantly be challenged because anything you do that's not about them will get you labeled a "control freak".  If you don't, you're not a "leader".

If you meet their verbal aggression with your own, you will not stop the verbal aggression.  On top of that, you may hate who you become and you may teach your children awful conflict resolution skills.

You have to choose who and how you want to be, regardless of how your pwBPD views it.  Because no matter what you choose, to them it will be wrong.
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Fanie
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 12:13:40 PM »

Thank you, Hopefuldad

I guess (your name says) you have children?

How to be a leader of those children

Dual parenting where the other parent is counter-parenting 

What role must we as fathers play, as the BPDw's are the ones in control now ?

Or the... . what is the definition or a  leader / head of house

You know, in biblical terms the household is not being led by the farther ... .

More inputs guys (sorry ladies Smiling (click to insert in post))
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Fanie
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2014, 12:15:03 PM »

Apologies

You know, in biblical terms the household is not being led by the farther ... .

    I meant; in a BPD controlled house !

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HopefulDad
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 04:55:47 PM »

Thank you, Hopefuldad

I guess (your name says) you have children?

How to be a leader of those children

Dual parenting where the other parent is counter-parenting 

What role must we as fathers play, as the BPDw's are the ones in control now ?

Or the... . what is the definition or a  leader / head of house

You know, in biblical terms the household is not being led by the farther ... .

More inputs guys (sorry ladies Smiling (click to insert in post))

The counter-parenting issue has been a tricky one to navigate and there is no easy compromise.  However, it can work, but it takes resolve on your part.  Here is what works for me:

First, I do not undermine my BPDw's authority... . yet (we'll get to that in a bit).  If she punishes the children in what I think is an unreasonable manner, I will not undo the punishment... . yet, until at least... .

Second, any parenting disagreements (usually punishments) I have with my wife I take up with her in private.  This can lead to various outcomes, that range from agreement and quick changes to her interaction with them to outright stubbornness to hold her ground.

Third, if the talk leads nowhere, I have to decide how important or critical it is to overrule her call.  I am *very* careful here and try to limit this to things I believe were not hers to hold as a stick over our kids: primarily my time with them.  For example, one time my wife punished my oldest daughter by telling her she couldn't do something with me that was pre-arranged.

Fourth, if #3 comes into play, I still take it up in private with my wife, but we are not negotiating.  In the example I gave, I outright tell her that she didn't have the right to determine my time with our daughter.  Find another way to punish her, but this one will not fly.  I then tell her she has a choice: Either she can tell our daughter the change in punishment or I will.

And yes, one time my wife made a scene in front of the kids about #4.  This saddened me greatly and the kids were in tears.  But unfortunately rules of thumb like "never undermine your spouse" probably didn't look to closely at the corner cases of personality disorders affecting things.
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