The ability to apologize properly/reconnect? Can't? Or won't?

[lipstick]

Hi Family,

Just musing on my part today. Looking for opinions on the whole "reconnect" thing. My exBPDbf has (I believe) split me black since December of this past year. Due to the fact that I had the audacity to not accept his FB Friend Request (blocked me, too!). This after he dumped me two days before my b'day and gave me the S.T. for over a year before sending the request.

Mutual acquaintances have shared with me that he has recently become active again on FB. Was completely silent - zero activity - since the "blocking".  From what I've been told - he is reacting to things that he is seeing on my FB page (confirms that he's still keeping tabs on me!) and doing some self-soothing by looking for attention thru his own postings. He doesn't get any - no real friends.

Knowing him and his past behaviors - I'm just wondering if this "self-soothing" is what they do rather than reaching out to the person / persons that they have hurt. If they truly don't understand how to go about making amends for their behaviors. If they somehow realize that they made a mess of things - but have no idea how to "fix" it.

Your thoughts?   

[Take2]

In my particular experience,  my exBPDbf has never shown any indication that he caused any problems.   The very rare moments where he has apologized for severely cruel behavior get eclipsed by distortion of facts later to help him justify his deep hatred of me.

Except for when he's back to loving me.  But NEVER waivers from his justifications. 

It's clear that at least without professional help he likely won't ever understand nor change his patterns of thinking and behavior.

With his attempts to reconnect it's always about needing to know I  still here willing to let him attack me.

Because we work together I have tried at times to see if we could be friends but it's clear it is not possible.   It gets very ugly very quickly.

[lipstick]

Take2,

I can't imagine working with my ex. No way. How do you manage it?  

Yours routinely splits you black? Mine didn't until I ignored the Friend Request. Now, I've been blocked for close to seven months. But the evidence that he is keeping tabs on me is overwhelming. Won't bore you with the details. I just bet he feels really smug about the whole spying thing, too. Like "she only THINKS I don't know what she's up to... . mwahahaha!". Like it's his little secret game. A game of control. And punishment.

I don't want mine back. He is toxic. I'm wondering, though, if I'm starting to lose the black paint and he just doesn't have the first clue on how to get back in my good graces (ain't happening!)? I know his life has not improved one little bit since he tried reaching out in December. He is SERIOUSLY crying for attention on FB. And gets nothing... . it's kind of sad.  

[enlighten me]

The closest my ex has got to an apology is " I know Im hard work"  She said that to me on a number of occasions. The last time was when I was leaving. When she said it it took all my will power not to laugh in her face and say " I don't mind hard work but your impossible".

So in answer to your question I do believe they realise they've made a mess of things but its too difficult to go all the way and accept responsibility.

[lipstick]

enlighten me,

"I know I'm hard work". Okay, that made me LOL !  Ya think?  And the payoff, honestly, ain't that great.

I agree with you. I think they know (mine does) that they messed up. But in my ex's case - he won't admit it. I guess it would destroy him to think that he is, indeed, a bad guy. He has admitted in the past that he's a "monster" and "not a nice guy" - but I just don't think he can deal with how much damage and pain his actions caused me. His life is miserable - but he pretends that it's not. The evidence is there, though.

A simple apology is just that... . it's simple. Yet he just.can't.do.it.  Or won't. I can't figure out which.

[enlighten me]

Its funny though when the shoes on the other foot and they expect an apology even if you have nothing to apologise for.

I once heard my ex saying to her son that it takes a big man to apologise but a bigger man to apologise for something they haven't done. (Im sure she did this knowing I was is earshot).

This confused me until I found out about BPD. Now I realise that when she has had a go at me for something I hadn't done she expected me to apologise for it knowing full well that it wasn't my fault.

[lipstick]

enlighten me,

Yep - you are spot on with this. Mine dumps me, runs away, gives me the Silent Treatment for over a year. Then gets his knickers in a wad because I won't "Friend" him on FB. Blocks me. Treats me like I'm the bad guy. Did I apologize? Unfortunately, I did send an email gently explaining why I could not accept the request. Guess what happened? Yep - you got it - I was ignored.

They are exhausting, frustrating creatures. And not worth it. I just can't accept, though, how they just won't apologize for hurting people. That is WRONG!

[enlighten me]

What you have to remember lipstick is that it is only wrong to us and our mindset. I believe that to them it is more than an apology. It is admitting they are wrong and if they are wrong about that then everything they believe could be wrong. One apology could cause their whole world to be blown apart.

Just my opinion on it. I could be a million miles off. If so then Sorry   

[lipstick]

No, I think that's valid. My ex wants to see himself as this devoted family man. This is the alternate reality that he has created for himself. Because to him - if his family "needs" him, he will never be abandoned. And to be a bad guy would negate that reality.

The truth is something far different, however. During our time together, he would show true insight into the issues. Yet, when push came to shove, he chose to "shove" me out of the picture. Now he is back with his very dysfunctional family and acts like I don't exist. However, I think I very much do exist in his mind. He still reacts very strongly to pictures / statuses I have on FB. Keeps tabs on me. But does he unblock me? No. Try to reach out to me? No. Very stubborn and childish. Again - won't admit to wrongdoing.

He is pretending that all is well, but I have seen behind the curtain. All is most definitely not well. Yet, he absolutely refuses to see it or admit it. He chooses to stay miserable and pretend that life is grand. Baffling.

[Take2]

What you have to remember lipstick is that it is only wrong to us and our mindset. I believe that to them it is more than an apology. It is admitting they are wrong and if they are wrong about that then everything they believe could be wrong. One apology could cause their whole world to be blown apart.

Just my opinion on it. I could be a million miles off. If so then Sorry   

This is right on

  If mine were to acknowledge part of what he's done be would truly lose it with the pain and shame of all he's done.  I truly believe with my ex at least that he truly cannot go there in his head.

As dangerous as I believe he really is to me I feel sad about that for him.

and how do I stand working with him?

It's been a long brutal dance we have done.

I don't know that I will ever stop unless I get out of there.

[lipstick]

Take2,

I hope that you find a better opportunity career-wise and that you are able to jettison this job and your ex!

Mine is most definitely punishing me. How long is it going to continue? Who knows? I find myself growing increasingly weary with the juvenile behavior. I wanted to discuss what had happened. I honestly believed that he would eventually send a message to go along with his FB Friend Request. I mean - to just send the Request? After a year of Silent Treatment? Seriously? But no - I think he wanted me to just accept the Request and act like nothing bad had happened between us.

I couldn't do that. He was cruel. I did not deserve it. And now I'm being treated like the bad guy. Tiresome. I'm truly tempted to deactivate my FB account so that he can no longer check up on me, either.

[Tausk]

For all these behaviors that seem confusing, I have to bring myself to remember that my ex is still the terrified, abused, three year old, with limited abilities, and who is living the very nightmare of her existence with the Disorder.

My exgfwBPD never really felt remorse or guilt.  She only felt shame, which was either repressed or erupted upon me through anger and projection.  Shame is how we feel about ourselves, Guilt/Remorse is how we feel about our actions.   Shame is a baser emotion than guilt. Remorse is a higher emotion that involves self awareness and and the ability to take responsibility for one's actions. 

When a want is the same as a need, as with my exgfwBPD, there is no guilt or responsibility, only shame.  If you stole a loaf of bread because your children were starving, you might feel shame, but probably limited guilt because you were acting on a need.   For my ex, the want and the need were the same. 

Or in another perspective, it's like a three year who impulsively steals a cookie and gets caught.  While being scolded, he may say he's sorry, but he really doesn't have the capacity to take responsibility for his actions.  He saw the cookie and at three years old he doesn't have the impulse control and executive decision making capacity to deny his desires.  His want for the cookie is the same as his need for the cookie.  And he does not have the ability to take responsibility for his actions.  But he feels great shame at her mother's scolding.

So he'll say he's sorry if he's forced to say it.  But inside he's feeling towards his mother is,, "You are mean and abusive, and I hate you!"  And he's really only sorry for getting caught or that you are mad.  Thus the, "I'm sorry your are mad" responses that so many of us have heard. 

The limited capacity for remorse,  self -responsibility, empathy essentially means that my ex will never change.  The capacity for self reflection and real adaptation are simply not within her.  Believe me we tried.  We went to counseling and learned ways to apologize.  But in the end she couldn't do it.   

It's not that she didn't want to apologize and take responsibility.   It's that she simply didn't have the capacity to take responsibility for her actions.  Her emotional development was arrested at the toddler age, and the pathways were never developed.  Emotional growth is simply beyond her.

The Disorder is a B___.  The Disorder is more powerful than me. The Disorder does not want happiness.  The Disorder always wins. 

Sadness.

T

[myself]

I think it's more they WON'T apologize than that they can't. For many reasons, one of the most important being that their whole house of cards would soon fall down, as 'enlighten me' was saying.

As for being bothered by him on FB, if you set it to 'Friends Only', and he's not on your 'friends' list, wouldn't that exclude him from seeing your posts? Blocking him would also help you keep your boundaries set. If he's seeing your posts through mutual people it's more complicated to avoid him. Live your life. Don't let him chase you from it.

Positive reconnection would include honesty, with actions of real friendship. This isn't it.

[lipstick]

myself,

He has me blocked on FB. Since December. So I don't think I can block him. And I wouldn't bother, anyway. I agree that I think they won't apologize.

I find it truly sad that he feels I must be punished for my behavior. It's odd how his family can behave in the most egregious ways imaginable - and they never get painted "black". Yet I did nothing wrong and am evil personified. Also, that he obviously still wants to keep a kind of "connection" with me via FB - yet can't bring himself to try and undo what he's done.

Like Tausk quoted above - the Disorder always wins.

[Tausk]

myself,

I agree that I think they won't apologize.

Like Tausk quoted above - the Disorder always wins.

Myself and Lipstick:

There's always a spectrum to the Disorder and how are exes are affected.  I'm curious, why you think your ex won't apologize vs. can't.  

For me, in the long run, I never saw anything close to self awareness of responsibility for my exes actions and behavior when it can to our interaction.  She had certain functional skills and different persona when dealing with different people.

But with me and our enmeshment the Disorder existed to deny itself.  My ex just did not have the ability to empathize with how her actions might affect me, and did not have the self will to be able to choose her actions and change her behavior.  

I look over her entire lifetime, and the ability to for remorse, confession and redemption were simply not present.  

Were your exes different?

Part my question is due to the fact that when I was able to accept that my ex couldn't apologize, I could also accept that she was never going to change because she couldn't.  Not wouldn't... . couldn't.  And that helped me to let go.

[lipstick]

Tausk,

First - thank you for your thoughtful and caring replies.

For my ex - I wish I could give a definitive answer to your question. He is very aware of the things that he's done over the years to members of his family. However, he has also mentioned that he always has to "win", whatever that means. When he discarded me and went back to his family - his behavior was pretty lousy. Drinking, reckless driving, spending money he didn't have. I think he was punishing himself for his actions towards me. I received a very juvenile letter in the mail where he did say he was "so sorry about your birthday, everything". "I've hurt you terribly in many ways and deserve no forgiveness". But the letter said NOTHING. No true explanation. It was mostly about him.

He tried to get my attention on FB for about seven months unbeknownst to me. Then I got the Friend Request. I believe he won't apologize because I'm at fault for not recognizing his efforts and for "rejecting his friendship". So instead he chooses to stay in the shadows and keep tabs on me without reaching out. I believe I'm being punished for my behavior towards him. He is the victim in his mind.

[enlighten me]

As I read through the posts I find more questions.

One that comes up is why do our exs/partners treat us differently. They have their public mask that rarely slips but with us they don't seem as bothered about it slipping. Is it because we are together more so the effort of keeping up appearances is too much. Or is it something deeper. Is it that they have a certain comfort with us? Did we get inside their first layer of walls?

[BorisAcusio]

myself,

I agree that I think they won't apologize.

Like Tausk quoted above - the Disorder always wins.

Myself and Lipstick:

There's always a spectrum to the Disorder and how are exes are affected.  

The underlying core symptoms remain the same. They may have the skills to more or less function in a work environment, due to their socieconomic background, intelligence and some kind of affect regulation. It leads to lower general anxiety level and less triggers but that's only the surface.

[myself]

She won't, because she chooses not to.

The mask would come off.

She'd be the one facing the most underneath it.

Disordered? Yes.

Chances? Yes.

Positive changes? No.

[myself]

There were a couple of times, in a handful of years, where (it seemed) she genuinely expressed that she was sorry. Being 'genuine' triggered her, though, causing her to distance herself and create further damage. Taking back her "sorry" each and every time. I understand and agree with you, Tausk, that in the roots of the disorder it's that they can't. Yet, having seen brief flashes of it being otherwise, I know it's possible. Depersonalize and accept? Still working on it. Too much intentional dishonesty mixed in.

[Arminius]

Mine did apologise to me at various points in the r/s . I thought nothing of it until her ex girlfriend ( who she always kept wrapped around her finger) once expressed surprise when she heard my ex apologise to me.

Apparently she was never heard to apologose before me.

I dont believe she actually WAS ever apologising,... I think she was saying the words that made her life easier.

At and after the end , she would send emails apologising and taking some responsibility for the r/s ending, but she would also send mails that were rancid, accusatory, hurtful and full of denial :

'You made me this way, you changed me and now I am powerful while

I rebuild myself to be who I want . Me. '

I would give a lot to rewind to 2007 and simply sleep with her and move on. That would have exhausted the emotional depth she is capable of. I actually wish her deep unhappiness, disorder or not. She knows she needs help. Not seeking it is a choice and that choice hurt me, so I wish her the same.

[lipstick]

Arminius,

I understand the anger and wishing them unhappiness. I'm right there with you on that. It's taken me close to two years to finally feel anger over what happened. I'm taking it as a positive and I know it will eventually pass. But right now I'm wishing all kinds of misery on my ex !

If I stop and really think about things, though - I see a very unhappy man trying to put on a false front for one and all. He will not admit to the unhappiness, though. That would mean he is a failure - and he cannot deal with that. I saw behind the curtain. I know what goes on in his marriage and otherwise. It's not pretty. It's not healthy. And it is most definitely not happy.  Probably why he continues to keep tabs on me. I believe that for a brief while - he was actually happy. But it was too much for him to handle. Had to run back to the drama / dysfunction / violence.

The only thing that still bothers me about the whole mess is that I have been painted black for no real reason, and his spouse / family can behave in hideous ways and they aren't. The disorder sucks.

[Arminius]

Lipstick, I believe mine was also happy, or as happy as she is capable of being, for quite some time.

An insightful friend said that I'd provided the stability her chaotic, low achieving ( in terms of property, assets, stability, despite high earnings) life had needed. Maybe so. But it seems that once an ostensibly stable life had been created, she found it overwhelming.

[Tausk]

Yes, the moments of apparent lucidity were baffling.  And she seemed most capable of being an adult and being responsible when she deep down knew her actions were transgressions and I was ready to leave.   

But again, she had very very limited free will in her actions.  The difference between a want and need were negligible.  So she had no choice.  And the deeper the attachment with me, the deeper the triggers and more extreme the responses.  The greater the need to punish.  The more violent the rages. The greater the fear of abandonment/enmeshment.   The deeper the idealization... .

And my ex might have said apologies once in a while, but they never were lasting.  We tried to learn the concept of making amends.  State regrets as to why an action did not meet one's needs, taking action to mend or correct the damage, and working at behaviors to ensure that a repeat of the transgression would not occur.

Simply too hard for her to understand.  She couldn't process it.   So even if she could say sorry, or say things that indicated awareness, there were no long term behavior changes that indicated anything got processed beyond the moment.  And that is the Disorder.

A homeless man might somewhat understand that the voices he hears, no one else can hear, but no matter what you tell him, he's going to hear the voices.  It's the Disorder.   Similarly, no matter how momentarily lucid my ex was at a moment, nothing was ever going to change in the long run.  She would always have her own "voices" in her head that would force her to do things.

She will never really change.   All I can hope for her to achieve is enough stability to survive with her new husband.   Adulthood, happiness, self awareness... . is beyond her.

[hergestridge]

I understand the need for apologies. I would like a few of those too right now, but looking back the few apologies I have got from my BPDso through the years have been disappointing and have led to confusion and misunderstandings.

She said she was sorry about having done something, and I'm sure it was sincere. But a few days later she changed her mind and did not regret the things she had done at all.

Recognize this?

She loves me - then she doesn't love me.

She forgives me - then she haven't forgiven me.

She regrets doing it - the she doesn't regret doing it.

It's all her fault - then it's all your fault.

[Tolou]

Mine, lied about having stage 2-3 cancer, 8 months after she told me it was a lie, the closest I got to an apology was, "I was desperate"... .

We still, work together! In the same place, I have not said a word to her since that day, and that was in July of 2013. I see her all the time, at first it akward because she painted me black at work, but I ignored everything, every tactic, every smere campaign, and people eventually saw, that I was none of those things.

When I see jer now, I actually she what I couldn't see before, that she is child like in many ways, her features, her appearance, dress style, mannerisms, and people kind of cater to the child in her.

To this day, if she were to apologize for lying about the cancer, I would try to be atleast cordial, but it will never happen...

Why would a "VICTIM" apologize? Then she can't be the victim! and that was the conculsion I came too with that... . I avioded her so much that eventually she mirrored my behaviors.  Ironically though, I wasnt ignoring her to be mean or cruel, but she was highly unstable, still suicidal and runing my rep at work, so I stayed away for a multitude of of my own health benefits and my job, not to be an ass, but she would never be able to see that, nor do I expect it from her.  Even if a an pology ever did come which I am not waiting for, I don't think she grasp the pain I felt thinking she had cancer and there was nothing I can do about it... . shame... .

[bungenstein]

A few of you talk about FB blocking, friend requests etc.

Which do you think would yield the most positive results, setting your social media profiles to private or public?

[Arminius]

Go private and block them and any associates they might 'waif' in it assisting them.

Block them from you mind. Take a restraining it harassment order to help enforce NC

I had my first spells of not thinking about her at all.

IT IS FANTASTIC!

[bungenstein]

Go private and block them and any associates they might 'waif' in it assisting them.

Block them from you mind. Take a restraining it harassment order to help enforce NC

I had my first spells of not thinking about her at all.

IT IS FANTASTIC!

Are they less likely to bother if its set to private? Or perhaps setting it to private might make them try harder? I don't know which one it is.

[bungenstein]

Because I remember when I blocked her before and it made her send me all sorts of abuse, so I'm not sure whats best.