BPDbiodad abandoned kids, remarried. do u let them visit his family?

[livednlearned]

I guess the concern legally is down the road dealing with claims she is blocking biodad's and his family's access to the kids.  Which to be honest, she is, but she has reasonable justification to do so because they've proven they are not safe people for the kids to be around and SO has the court orders giving her authority to do it. 

Every case is different -- it seems like maybe you are traumatized by your court experience, and are feeling like your SO might experience an uphill battle like you did, or that the court could pull a wild card and penalize her.

But from out here on the Internet, it sounds like her ex is both severely disordered and dangerous, and the court has ruled as far in your SO's favor as it can without stripping him of parental rights.

Do what is right for the kids and don't sweat what court will or won't do. They pretty much placed faith in her to do just that.

[Matt]

How would you implement this approach in your case?

SO won't willingly relax on supervised visits until Biodad provides documentation he's been to T, is paid up and staying paid up on CS, and is exercising his supervised visits for an extended period of time.

This seems like a very sensible, practical approach to me, with one gotcha.

Where I live, the court wouldn't like making CS a condition of contact.  The idea is, financial matters are between the adults (and the court), and contact is for the benefit of the kids.  So the court here would say, I think, "If he gets behind on CS that should not impact contact with the kids, unless the court decides that."

But the philosphy sounds like, ":)o what you're supposed to do, and then at some point we can talk about unsupervised contact."  And by not doing what he is supposed to do, Biodad is showing that he either doesn't really want more contact, or he isn't capable of handling it.

And... . given what you say about duct tape and shovels, if they were my kids, I would never want them to be around him unsupervised.  Not many people would do those kinds of things to kids.  I would never want my kids to be around someone like that unsupervised.

[Pou]

If I am a child of a BPD bioDad, even if my biodad is a complete screw up... . I probably still want to get to know him ... . and decide for myself that he is a complete screw up.  I think I would be resentful for not having that opportunity later on.  So I think you should find ways to protect them and yourself from the BPD nonsense, while make sure your kids do get to know their bio-dad. It is hard dealing with BPDs, but try to keep calm and not overreact, because it will make things worse.  Keep firm and your objective straight.  For older kids, this would be a great learning experience for them.  You can educate them about BPDs and how to deal with people afflicted with that personality.  Hope all work out for you.    

[Waddams]

Where I live, the court wouldn't like making CS a condition of contact.  The idea is, financial matters are between the adults (and the court), and contact is for the benefit of the kids.  So the court here would say, I think, "If he gets behind on CS that should not impact contact with the kids, unless the court decides that."

I've made this point to SO.  As LnL said, SO still has some FOG and as she comes out of it more and more, a rather strong bit of anger.  She knows this from a logical standpoint.  It just doesn't really seem to get past the emotional aspects of her thinking.

But the philosphy sounds like, ":)o what you're supposed to do, and then at some point we can talk about unsupervised contact."  And by not doing what he is supposed to do, Biodad is showing that he either doesn't really want more contact, or he isn't capable of handling it.

Exactly.

And... . given what you say about duct tape and shovels, if they were my kids, I would never want them to be around him unsupervised.  Not many people would do those kinds of things to kids.  I would never want my kids to be around someone like that unsupervised.

I agree.  And regardless of if he pays CS or not, as long as there's a supervised visit order, and as long as it isn't changed in court, SO is going to enforce it.  The question of CS vs. visitation is moot until the court order is changed, if ever.

If I am a child of a BPD bioDad, even if my biodad is a complete screw up... . I probably still want to get to know him ... . and decide for myself that he is a complete screw up.  I think I would be resentful for not having that opportunity later on.  So I think you should find ways to protect them and yourself from the BPD nonsense, while make sure your kids do get to know their bio-dad. It is hard dealing with BPDs, but try to keep calm and not overreact, because it will make things worse.  Keep firm and your objective straight.  For older kids, this would be a great learning experience for them.  You can educate them about BPDs and how to deal with people afflicted with that personality.  Hope all work out for you

Oh they know him.  So didn't split with him and leave until about 4-5 years ago.  The kids lived with him at first, then SO got sole custody and supervised visits after his abuse got real bad towards the kids.  She's had them for about 3 1/2 years under the current orders.  They're aged 10-16, and they know him, remember him, etc.  And while it may not always be kosher to do this, w/ money being so tight for so long for them, they sometimes complain about it as they were very well off before the split.  SO usually does a good job handling it, but if it happens when SO is having a bad day, occasionally she'll let it slip that he's not paying his CS and share of other medical expenses, etc.  Things like "if you're father would pay his CS, I could get you glasses and contacts, but I don't have the money right now."  Basically moments of exasperation. 

And as I said before, the last visits SO allowed to be supervised by other family at their houses, the biodad started in on them with some pretty severe emotional/mental abuse and alienation as soon as he was alone with them.  It took a month to get the kids totally settled down again.  SO isn't willing to risk that again.

[livednlearned]

If I am a child of a BPD bioDad, even if my biodad is a complete screw up... . I probably still want to get to know him ... . and decide for myself that he is a complete screw up.  I think I would be resentful for not having that opportunity later on.  So I think you should find ways to protect them and yourself from the BPD nonsense, while make sure your kids do get to know their bio-dad. It is hard dealing with BPDs, but try to keep calm and not overreact, because it will make things worse.  Keep firm and your objective straight.  For older kids, this would be a great learning experience for them.  You can educate them about BPDs and how to deal with people afflicted with that personality.  Hope all work out for you.    

For Waddams's SO, the complicating factor is the custody order. SO felt strongly that the man was a danger to the kids, and the courts agreed with those findings. It's a high bar to get supervised visitation. Biodad can't pull himself together to comply, so: consequence.

Once we start messing with the court order and deciding to undermine it, then we start losing traction, and that's bad for everyone.

Fortunately, you can teach your kids to deal with BPD and afflicted personalities no matter who they have contact with. There's plenty of dysfunction out there to practice on... .

[Pou]

Where I live, the court wouldn't like making CS a condition of contact.  The idea is, financial matters are between the adults (and the court), and contact is for the benefit of the kids.  So the court here would say, I think, "If he gets behind on CS that should not impact contact with the kids, unless the court decides that."

I've made this point to SO.  As LnL said, SO still has some FOG and as she comes out of it more and more, a rather strong bit of anger.  She knows this from a logical standpoint.  It just doesn't really seem to get past the emotional aspects of her thinking.

But the philosphy sounds like, ":)o what you're supposed to do, and then at some point we can talk about unsupervised contact."  And by not doing what he is supposed to do, Biodad is showing that he either doesn't really want more contact, or he isn't capable of handling it.

Exactly.

And... . given what you say about duct tape and shovels, if they were my kids, I would never want them to be around him unsupervised.  Not many people would do those kinds of things to kids.  I would never want my kids to be around someone like that unsupervised.

I agree.  And regardless of if he pays CS or not, as long as there's a supervised visit order, and as long as it isn't changed in court, SO is going to enforce it.  The question of CS vs. visitation is moot until the court order is changed, if ever.

If I am a child of a BPD bioDad, even if my biodad is a complete screw up... . I probably still want to get to know him ... . and decide for myself that he is a complete screw up.  I think I would be resentful for not having that opportunity later on.  So I think you should find ways to protect them and yourself from the BPD nonsense, while make sure your kids do get to know their bio-dad. It is hard dealing with BPDs, but try to keep calm and not overreact, because it will make things worse.  Keep firm and your objective straight.  For older kids, this would be a great learning experience for them.  You can educate them about BPDs and how to deal with people afflicted with that personality.  Hope all work out for you

Oh they know him.  So didn't split with him and leave until about 4-5 years ago.  The kids lived with him at first, then SO got sole custody and supervised visits after his abuse got real bad towards the kids.  She's had them for about 3 1/2 years under the current orders.  They're aged 10-16, and they know him, remember him, etc.  And while it may not always be kosher to do this, w/ money being so tight for so long for them, they sometimes complain about it as they were very well off before the split.  SO usually does a good job handling it, but if it happens when SO is having a bad day, occasionally she'll let it slip that he's not paying his CS and share of other medical expenses, etc.  Things like "if you're father would pay his CS, I could get you glasses and contacts, but I don't have the money right now."  Basically moments of exasperation.  

And as I said before, the last visits SO allowed to be supervised by other family at their houses, the biodad started in on them with some pretty severe emotional/mental abuse and alienation as soon as he was alone with them.  It took a month to get the kids totally settled down again.  SO isn't willing to risk that again.

Waddams, Got it! sounds like your kids know him already and they know it is in the best of their interest to have a healthy separation from him ... in that case, you will have to do what is in their best interest and what Livenleaned said makes lots of sense … court order is a tricky thing ... you almost have to do things to make sure you don't slip and loose your rights … you are in a tough situation and it looks like you are getting many sound advice on this board.  I am always in favor that kids should experience the "bad" first hand so they can make the decision to stay away (with your help) so they don't feel completely powerless in this whole unfortunate situation.  I wish you the best.

 

[Waddams]

Well SO sent her ex- an email yesterday with some lofty sounding language that basically that since he's not paying CS and being such a douche, she's filing yet another round of criminal abandonment charges.

Right after that she gets a text from ex-'s sister (the aunt that's been in contact about the visit) saying they will pick up kids Wednesday and drop them off Sunday. 

SO's decided the kids aren't going.  She said she was going to send a text back saying she didin't think it was going to work out, sorry.  But only after waiting a day or two because she didn't want to seem like she was answering to them.  Is it just me or is there a bit of FOG in that way of thinking?

I told her I recommended more assertiveness.  Put her b!tch boots on and respond promptly with an assertive "No."  And I'd even call them out on trying to cover for the biodad and help him circumvent supervised visits.  They act like they're in charge.  Let them know they aren't. 

[Matt]

If it was me, I would pick up the phone - I think that is much more effective than texts - or maybe send an e-mail - and why wait?  Just answer, "I don't think this is best.  If you want to see the kids, you're welcome to come here - just let me know and we'll meet for an hour or two."  Using e-mail would document that an offer of contact has been made, though I don't think that is probably necessary.

I think it was a mistake for SO to send an e-mail mentioning child support and tying it to contact.  That could backfire.  If she talks to a lawyer I think she will be advised to keep those issues separate unless the court ties them together in some way.

Maybe she used other words to say "being a douche", but if she ties contact to his behavior in any vague way - like she is requiring him to treat her the way she would like to be treated - that could be a mistake too.  Discussion of contact should focus on what is best for the kids, and on the terms of the court order.

For example, "The court order requires supervised contact.  The kids would like to see you, so please let me know when and how that could work out."

I also don't understand how criminal abandonment charges work, but it could be a needless complication.  If he isn't seeing the kids, that's his choice, and would she really want the court to force him to see them?

Or if her real focus is on CS - and that is valid, if the court has set up CS he is supposed to pay it - where I live that is handled by filing a complaint and then it's a civil matter, but could become criminal at some point.  But I don't think it's called "abandonment".  Maybe it's different there, but if what she wants is the money, there might be a simpler way to proceed - I don't know if she will get the money but I think trying to make it a criminal matter will only set the bar higher.

She could be turning her position of strength into a weaker one, by acting erratically.  I think she would be on very firm ground if she would just do two things.  First, regarding contact, hold firm to what the court order says, and allow Biodad to see the kids under professional supervision, and allow his family to see the kids with one of you guys present, but no overnights.  Second, find out how CS is normally enforced, and go down that path, keeping it entirely separate from the contact issue.

And of course the big issue is to deal with this stuff as practical matters, not emotional attacks.  Reading between the lines of your last post, I think she is shifting back and forth from "weak" to "mad", but not landing on "practical".

[livednlearned]

SO's decided the kids aren't going.  She said she was going to send a text back saying she didin't think it was going to work out, sorry.  But only after waiting a day or two because she didn't want to seem like she was answering to them.  Is it just me or is there a bit of FOG in that way of thinking?

Not FOG, in my opinion. The bolded part is very typical of people who have been severely engulfed, which you often see in DV survivors. When you have been obliterated by someone who erases who you are through domination, abuse, control, manipulation, then you become very triggered by anything that seems remotely like control. Your SO might be feeling triggered because the family is connected to her ex, and she is firing up her defenses. Yes, it would be appropriate to just write back and be assertive, but assertive is only going to make sense to her if she understands how she behaves when she's triggered. First, she has to acknowledge that she is perceiving a threat, not experiencing a real one. That's hard. (Also, it will come across as insulting if you suggest it's not a real threat). Then she has to feel safe enough to set down her coping mechanism when she feels threatened by something she isn't sure is perceived, it could be real. That's scary. Then she has to trust that asserting herself isn't going to cause something worse to happen.

Fear of engulfment doesn't get mentioned as much here as fear of abandonment. My guess is that she is much more triggered by engulfment.

[Matt]

SO's decided the kids aren't going.  She said she was going to send a text back saying she didin't think it was going to work out, sorry.  But only after waiting a day or two because she didn't want to seem like she was answering to them.  Is it just me or is there a bit of FOG in that way of thinking?

Not FOG, in my opinion. The bolded part is very typical of people who have been severely engulfed, which you often see in DV survivors. When you have been obliterated by someone who erases who you are through domination, abuse, control, manipulation, then you become very triggered by anything that seems remotely like control. Your SO might be feeling triggered because the family is connected to her ex, and she is firing up her defenses. Yes, it would be appropriate to just write back and be assertive, but assertive is only going to make sense to her if she understands how she behaves when she's triggered. First, she has to acknowledge that she is perceiving a threat, not experiencing a real one. That's hard. (Also, it will come across as insulting if you suggest it's not a real threat). Then she has to feel safe enough to set down her coping mechanism when she feels threatened by something she isn't sure is perceived, it could be real. That's scary. Then she has to trust that asserting herself isn't going to cause something worse to happen.

Fear of engulfment doesn't get mentioned as much here as fear of abandonment. My guess is that she is much more triggered by engulfment.

So maybe it's wise to let it be for a few days... .

[Waddams]

Matt and LnL - I agree with what both of you are saying.  And if her ex- was a guy that had not totally relocated his life to planet a$$hole, my SO would be exposing herself to other risks.  As things stand however, he hasn't tried to set up a visit in well over 2 years.  And he's only paid CS when drug in front of a magistrate.  He's 11 months behind.  And it's documented he's tried to circumvent the supervised visitation court orders 2 years ago at the last go round with this.  At this point, SO would have to show up to court with the literal herion needle in her vein, while huffing butane cigarette lighter refueling cans, in order to loose anything to this guy.

Let me explain a caveat of the legal system where we live though.  There are 3 ways of trying to enforce court orders regarding payment of child support.

1.  Have the local child support enforcement agency open a case.  You go down, file the paperwork and give them copies of the court orders as well as documentation of non-payment.  They may get around to your case next year due to their workload.  It can work, but it takes a REALLY long time.  The agency will file court papers, and then there's a long bunch of BS back and forth as they try to collect, but get him to pay willingly.  And 2nd chances, 3rd chances, etc.  Once they start on your case, it could be another year before they start to enact consequences, garnishments, restrict driving privileges, revoke business/professional licenses, etc.  Again, the slow pace is due to overwhelming work load.

2.  Go file contempt charges in the local family court.  This is civil court.  Usually requires a L, spending extra cash you don't have to start with usually.  This is the most effective way to enforce payment once you can get a case going with a L and get in front of a judge, though.  The judge can order lots of stuff real quick once you're in front of them.  Wait from time of filing to getting a hearing can be 2-3 months usually.  The other party gets 30 days to respond, then figure on 30-60 days for filing affidavits, discovery, etc.  They are good with doing emergency hearings quicker though in cases like the kids aren't eating and about to be homeless, etc.

You can try this pro se as well, but not knowing the rules of court, evidence, state and local procedures, etc. can end up costing you big in hearings/orders issued/etc.  Particularly if the non-payer can afford a L and you can't.  You get technicality-'d to death.

3.  If you can't wait, and can't hire a L, go to the local magistrate and file what's called "Criminal Abandonment" charges.  This is filing for a hearing in front of magistrate to hear cause to issue a warrant for arrest against a non-payer for criminal abandonment of the kids.  Their guilty of it if they miss a payment, or if they don't see the kids for a year.  1st offense usually is dismissed, particularly if you show up with a check to hand over.  And if you demonstrate a true financial hardship the judges are usually understanding.  However, for cases like SO's where there is a long history and pattern of not paying, misconduct, etc., the magistrate has the authority to put you in jail.  I can't imagine they'd put you in jail for not seeing the kids, but the law is written so the judge can if he wants.

Basically, SO would have to show cause to have biodad arrested.  Sounds easy enough, but if he shows up with a single month's check to turn over, he can usually walk out of the courtroom a free man.  You basically have to build up a history of filings showing the pattern to the court before they'll stop accepting the single month check and letting the idiot go.  She's been to the magistrate here 3 times now.  She's had varying levels of success.  Last time the judge let biodad go with the one month payment, but did acknowledge the guy was really living dangerously as he was so behind, and had likely committed a federal crime by moving out of state while oweing a lot of money, it was clear he was trying to avoid paying.  In summary, the judge gave him another chance.

I think SO is going to file with magistrate again.  If the judge actually orders him arrested, then SO would have to basically be the prosecutor in a criminal case against him.  They'd book him, make him bond out, set a trial schedule, etc.  Then have a trial and he'd either be found guilty or innocent.  If guilty, the magistrate can then impose a range of consequences.  It's very rare to get that far.  Usually someone that actually gets arrested will find a way to pay up to get the filer to drop the charge.

[livednlearned]

I'm just saying that she is probably waiting to respond to the extended family for a few days instead of right away because she has engulfment triggers.