Looking for couples T before we give up (Part 7)

[formflier]

 

If she was asked to write out a definition of cheating... .what do you think she would write.

What do you think you would write.

I'm trying to imagine how close those two are... .or how far apart.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

If she was asked to write out a definition of cheating... .what do you think she would write.

What do you think you would write.

That's brilliant.

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .as far as cheating goes. She doesn't like it when I use the word. Somehow because she TOLD me she was going to have sex with the guy before she did it, she doesn't think the word cheating quite fits, and gets upset when I use it.

A while ago I said something about "The guy you ___ed after I was weeping and begging you not to do it." instead of "The guy you cheated with."

I think she doesn't like the word because it paints her clearly in the wrong, but she complains that the definition doesn't fit. The alternative I gave is completely accurate, getting around her official objection.   She didn't comment on my new 'word'.

She has at a couple times admitted that when she did it, she acted against her own moral code. Both to me and to a few other people.

Her actions have consequences. I don't want a marriage where the consequence of her action is that I stuff my feelings. She gets to deal with my difficult feelings, if she wants to deal with me. I've been coping with her difficult feelings for a loong time already.

[formflier]

 

So... get her to write out her moral code... .

You write out yours... .

That would be interesting and probably a good tool for MC.

IMO... .it was cheating... she knows it.

[formflier]

 

Maybe even more interesting... .

Get her to write out what she thinks her choices are in the r/s... and what your choices are... .

Same for you.  Well... I already know yours... .but... you get where I'm going

[KateCat]

Get her to write out what she thinks her choices are in the r/s... and what your choices are... .

Brilliant. . . . . Perhaps your wife is a person whose actions have not had many consequences for her to date.

[patientandclear]

A while ago I said something about "The guy you ___ed after I was weeping and begging you not to do it." instead of "The guy you cheated with."

I think she doesn't like the word because it paints her clearly in the wrong, but she complains that the definition doesn't fit. The alternative I gave is completely accurate, getting around her official objection.   She didn't comment on my new 'word'.

I love this. Good for you.

[Grey Kitty]

  Thanks, P&C! It felt good to me when I said it.

Perhaps your wife is a person whose actions have not had many consequences for her to date.

I've spent a decade mostly trying to not give her consequences. I'm kinda done with that.

If she is staying in contact or resuming contact, or planning to resume contact with this guy she cheated... .I feel hurt and betrayed. I cannot escape those feelings. I can try to stuff them, but they keep coming back. Along with some anger or resentment if I try it. My feelings are a natural consequence of her action.

Being clear with her about these consequences feels right to me.

I'm not really in a place where asking her to write out and compare choices or values feels appropriate. Especially if it goes off in an abstract direction--we just get more entrenched in the conflict if we aim for higher abstract values. We do better when applying values to specific concrete choices, although we still have conflicts. (obviously)

I'm also working very hard NOT to be too involved in her choices. Trying to break my side of 20 years of enmeshed history. So I'm not looking for 'solutions' that involve me telling her what to do. Instead I'm trying to tell her things I'm doing, and ask for things I want.

[sweetheart]

"I'm also working very hard NOT to be too involved in her choices. Trying to break my side of 20 years of enmeshed history. So I'm not looking for 'solutions' that involve me telling her what to do. Instead I'm trying to tell her things I'm doing, and ask for things I want."

... .except that she's not listening, she is paying lip service to you talking about how you feel, but her actions are saying otherwise.

KateCat makes a valid point in that it would seem like your wife does not know much about consequences. Her responses throughout this situation have been to carry on doing what she likes because I think that she believes you will continue to tolerate whatever she does.

I think what has been the steepest learning curve in my marriage to date is that I have often carried on using what I thought were flexible emotional boundaries when in fact my they were still maladaptive boundaries influenced by years of enmeshment and emotional abuse.

It might have to be your actions not your words that eventually help your wife to hear what you are saying and precipitate change for both of you.

[KateCat]

It might have to be your actions not your words that eventually help your wife to hear what you are saying and precipitate change for both of you.

This sounds pretty savvy to me.

Grey Kitty, have you ever encountered the term "semantic aphasia" in your online explorations? I'm not sure if this is a theoretical postulate that has fallen by the historical wayside or not. (It certainly seems too harsh, in my lay opinion, for the ethos of this forum, but it may be a bit in line with M. Scott Peck's ideas regarding "people of the lie." Maybe.) At any rate, the term has apparently been used to characterize people with a certain type of psychopathy. It is said that these people fail in some profound way to understand the meaning of words.

That might sound a bit absurd as a way to think of your wife, but it seems that she struggles to define a number of important terms. If she didn't, wouldn't she be able to answer the questions formflier proposes?

This leads me to wonder even if your wife is truly a practitioner of polyamory, as most of its adherents define it. What if she can't, in fact, define her values?

I guess this is all coming down to you and your values.

[formflier]

This leads me to wonder even if your wife is truly a practitioner of polyamory, as most of its adherents define it. What if she can't, in fact, define her values? 

Which is why I'm fan of having her write down... .and define her values.  Even if that is "for that moment"...

If she can't do it... or refuses... .honestly... to me... .that is a bigger deal than the cheating... .and might lend me to think more along Katecat's line of thougt

[KateCat]

Isn't your wife a writer?

For me, this raises some scary thoughts.

[vortex of confusion]

This leads me to wonder even if your wife is truly a practitioner of polyamory, as most of its adherents define it. What if she can't, in fact, define her values? 

Which is why I'm fan of having her write down... .and define her values.  Even if that is "for that moment"...

If she can't do it... or refuses... .honestly... to me... .that is a bigger deal than the cheating... .and might lend me to think more along Katecat's line of thougt

I am curious about this line of thinking. What is the rationale behind writing down and defining her values? I think I know but I am in a situation where my husband could probably write a book about the stuff as he is a philosopher and was even a monk for a while. He has read and studied and written all about philosophy and religion and ethics. At the end of the day, there is a huge disconnect. My husband and I have agreed on a few things verbally and in writing. That means nothing because the actions do not align and trying to hold him to his own values feels like a lost cause and things spiral into this, not sure how to describe it, but it is what feels like intellectual idiocy and things become more and more abstract and less and less grounded and is therefore completely unproductive.

[formflier]

Isn't your wife a writer?

For me, this raises some scary thoughts.

Grey,

Is there a history of writing stuff down?

I would like to get back to that in my r/s... .but I realize that I'm the one that took a good thing... .writing down agreements... .and messing it up.

This was "pre BPD knowledge".  Anyway... .I used the writing in a very invalidating way.  I proved myself right... .her wrong... .it was satisfying at the moment.  But... .no surprise... .she quit doing it.

In the future... .I hope to get to the point of here is what was written... here is what happen... .and gently look for explanation... .or nuance in the two things.  Vice going at it in a contractual way...

[formflier]

  That means nothing because the actions do not align and trying to hold him to his own values feels like a lost cause and things spiral into this, not sure how to describe it, but it is what feels like intellectual idiocy and things become more and more abstract and less and less grounded and is therefore completely unproductive.

So... .the key is to get them... .or anyone... to put down the value... .in a simple form.

I value my marriage vows... .therefore I will not cheat... (as an example)

Then... .connect the value system to the action.  Have them do this... .not you.

Most likely it will result in some bizarre thinking and explanations... .we don't fix their thinking... .but we also don't say "it makes sense... " when it doesn't.

"Fixing this"... .is up to them and a T... .or P... .

Some things may come off as eccentric and let them be that way. 

Vortex,

In your situation... .I'm not seeing you being ok with "letting them be... ."  So... somehow... .we need to make sure that we keep marching in the right direction.

Realizing it won't be overnight... .and might not ever be "Fixed"... .but "way better... ."

Thoughts?  Make sense?

[KateCat]

What is the rationale behind writing down and defining her values?

My thought is that it would only be useful in the event that a partner had been acting under the mistaken belief that shared values were understood in the relationship. Just as a heads-up to that partner.

[formflier]

My thought is that it would only be useful in the event that a partner had been acting under the mistaken belief that shared values were understood in the relationship. Just as a heads-up to that partner.

Yes... .very useful for this purpose.  If you try to use it for the purpose of "proving" to the pwBPD that they are inconsistent... the writing things down most likely won't last for long.

However... .still useful for the "non" to know that there core values... .or what they say are core values swing wildly.

[vortex of confusion]

So... .the key is to get them... .or anyone... to put down the value... .in a simple form.

I value my marriage vows... .therefore I will not cheat... (as an example)

That makes sense. I am thinking of situations where I think the value is clear but the actions do not align. I think it may be a case that is similar to what GK is experiencing where the partner will express a value but then redefine things to fit his/her own agenda. Then it becomes a mind mess whereby we get caught up in defining and redefining terms that, to the average person, would seem obvious.

In your situation... .I'm not seeing you being ok with "letting them be... ."  So... somehow... .we need to make sure that we keep marching in the right direction.

Hmmm, I think I could let them be if I was clear on what they even are. That is part of the problem. I don't know what I am "letting be" as there doesn't seem to be any kind of agreement on what the values are. I am at a point where I am not even sure if we have any shared values. We can verbally agree and even agree in writing but that is not carried out with action. I guess the example that comes to mind is that one day he says he is bisexual and the next day he isn't. It probably wasn't quite that extreme but that is the way it felt on my end. I feel like I am moving in the right direction because I am trying to redefine my values for myself. I think that over the years, some of my values got really skewed because that is what needed to happen in order for me to find any kind of peace within our marriage.

Realizing it won't be overnight... .and might not ever be "Fixed"... .but "way better... ."

I have no expectation of anything ever being fixed. I am wanting to find a place where my husband and I can agree on what the values are and then have BOTH of us act accordingly. I know that some of my actions go against my own values and I don't like that at all. So, I need to figure out how to get back to the place where my values and my actions are in alignment.

And, I would like a little less uncertainty regarding what it is that my husband values. He can say and write whatever he wants but I have yet to find a way to hold him to that. When I have tried to bring up some of this stuff, he took it as me picking on his religion or telling him NOT to go to church. The reality is that I was trying to hold up the standards/values that he has talked about and claimed to have for years so that he could make the connection that there was a huge disconnect between his actions and his supposed values. For example, he has repeatedly stated that marriage is his vocation and that the best gift he can give the kids is to love their mother. He has some really awesome things that he says and tells people. In theory, he looks and talks like the perfect father and husband. The reality is so very different.

[sweetheart]

Sorry guys I just don't agree here because gk's wife's actions are the real indicators of where she is at emotionally and where perhaps she wants to be. This would be true for us all, no matter what comes out of our mouths. I'm with

Like vortex said her h can write down insightful expanses of philosophical prose but he does not then apply that to his own emotional experience of the world. I could do the same, I could also write what I think you wanted to read if I was so inclined.

Remember gk wife does not believe she cheated, just that she knew gk didn't want her to persue an intimate relationship with the guy. Technically she didn't cheat she just didn't respect gk's wishes. This is where the fault line lies for them both and no amount of talking to date and I suspect writing is going to change this disjuncture between them.

Unless gk's wife is going to do a u turn regarding her relationship with this other guy and accept gk's conditions around this in the future ( and any other relationships ) there is an impasse from which her recent actions and plans would suggest she is not coming out from behind.

All that said if she can commit to MC and explore the relationship as a whole who knows... .

[formflier]

 

One other benefit to writing is it "slows things down... ."  They can ponder their words.

When pwBPD get cranked up the stuff just flows from their mouth.

Back when I accepted email and text rages from my wife... .I could tell she was dysregulating... .because of lack of punctuation and spelling... .

[sweetheart]

I agree ff writing can slow things down but it does not sound like this is the issue here. There is also communication but not agreement around core values, expectations and outcomes.

[Grey Kitty]

So... .the key is to get them... .or anyone... to put down the value... .in a simple form.

I value my marriage vows... .therefore I will not cheat... (as an example)

That makes sense. I am thinking of situations where I think the value is clear but the actions do not align. I think it may be a case that is similar to what GK is experiencing where the partner will express a value but then redefine things to fit his/her own agenda. Then it becomes a mind mess whereby we get caught up in defining and redefining terms that, to the average person, would seem obvious.

VOC, I think you just nailed why I don't even want to have this sort of discussion with my wife.

In a couple conversations with her, I heard her say clearly something about me out-logicing her. I can't remember the exact words... .my memory of her words plus my interpretation of the parts I don't think she's being self-aware of is this:

"You've used logic to point out that my actions don't match my expressed values, and your values. Using logic like this isn't fair to my feelings. I want to keep doing those actions without having consequences from you. You aren't being fair when you use logic on me like this."



I can make a lot more sense of the world if I look at actions as a way to express values, and try to live such that the values my actions express are ones which are important to me.

If my wife's actions don't match the values she's expressing... .I'm not going to pay much attention to her statements of values.

Her actions were clear about not valuing my consent and my feelings in our marriage regarding cheating with this guy.

If I'm going to repair my marriage with her, it can take two paths:

1. She changes her behavior.

2. I accept that this behavior will be an ongoing part of our marriage.

Path #2 isn't working for me. I keep getting hurt badly when it happens.

I don't know that she is willing to take path #1, or that she can convince me she's on it.

[Rapt Reader]

*Mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been closed. The conversation continues here: New Phase, New Point (Part 8).