Circular conversations, how to avoid them. Help, please

[Louise7777]

Hi guys!

I had a terrible day and would appreciate any comment/ opinion on this.

Although I said a million times (and acted accordingly) that I dont want ANYTHING to do with my dysfunctional/ BPD/ NPD family members, my mom still tries to drag me back from time to time.

Long story short, she must have some fleas or worse, cause that enabling behaviour (regarding her uBPD/ NPD sisters) is not normal.

Today we ended up fighting cause of that, I dont want to get involved in a family business and since shes elderly, shes trying to make me guilty to deal with it. Instead of sharing the burden with her sisters (co-owners), she wants to sacrifice me. Yes, I feel like a lamb. I got enraged and dont want to deal with that. So here comes the circular conversations on "what do I do then?", "cant you help me please?", etc.

No matter how much I try to make her see the whole scenario, all goes back to me having to deal with the business problems. I ended up drained physically, it was unbeliavable. I thought I was in a better place by now, but I cant get away from them.

I ended up saying "I dont want to talk about this issue ever again, dont discuss it with me".

What should I had done? Left? We live together and this is draining me and making me sick. Thanks a lot!

[Pilate]

Hi Louise7777,

It sounds as if your mom wants you to solve her problems and rescue her. Is that correct?

If you have set a boundary today that you don't want to discuss the family business or discuss being involved in the family business, then the next time your mom starts to bring it up, you could say, "Mom, I said that I am not going to discuss the family business. If we can change the subject, then I am happy to be here with you. But if we can't talk about something else, then I'm going to X, Y, Z**. After I'm done with XYZ, we can connect again." (**if you live together, you could have a list of plans for XYZ: to go to your room, check email, run errands, do laundry, or leave the house--but have a list that doesn't require you to always have to leave the house but just leave her vicinity.) Then, if your mom does bring up the family business, you do whatever it is you said you would. And you keep doing this every time she brings up the business and eventually--weeks, months, a year eventually--she will realize you aren't going to discuss the business and she'll stop. She might take up a new annoying topic, but the family business issue will slowly fade away.

On the other hand, if you want to talk with her to see if there is a feeling or deeper issue that she is worried about that the family business represents that might be another way to get the conversations to stop. Is she worried that she won't be able to financially support herself? Is she worried about how or who will care for her needs as she ages and becomes less able to do for herself? You could use some of the dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT) reflective questioning to see if your mom can recognize what it is she needs, so she can problem solve for herself. There are some threads in the tools and workshop forums--as well as the parenting forum--that talk about reflective questioning. The skill isn't easy or natural sounding at first, but it can help the difficult person identify what is bothering them or why they are feeling a certain way, so they can get into "wise mind" and problem solve for themselves.

I don't know if either of these ideas sound like they would work. I don't know of any quick fixes, and I'm sure it's additionally difficult because you live together. Such arguments are so emotionally and physically draining. Take care of yourself and be gentle with yourself after going through such an emotional and physical experience. It is OKAY for your mom to advocate and communicate her needs herself. You are showing your love for her by allowing her the opportunity to express her needs for herself.

Pilate

[HappyChappy]

Circular conversations, a bit like nagging. You have to avoid enguaging at all cost. So you need excuses they can't undermine. If the topic arrises, you could suddenly need to go to the toilet. Or need a glass of water. Or imeadiatly change the topic. Takes a bit of practise. If they acuse you of avoiding the topic, you might want to invent a bladder issue. You can't realy undermine a medical issue. Hope that helps.

[Linda Maria]

Hi Louise!  I cannot imagine how hard this is - I found it very hard with my uBPDsis - and she lives an hour away.  I agree with the others' posts - you have to state again, clearly, that you will not be involved in these conversations, though you will support her in all other ways where possible, and then stick to it.  Even if you have to leave the house - eventually she will realise.  It's tough but you have to do it or you will go crazy going over and over the same things - that's the thing that sent me nuts last year - and mine was mainly in letters and texts, so nothing like as hard as a face to face situation.  Best wishes.  JB

[Louise7777]

Thank you all SO MUCH for the caring and thoughtful responses. This place is a life-saver for me. Outsiders (even friends) cant understand the whole implications as you do. 

Pilate, I just got another dose of the same, believe it or not. I just told her "do whatever you want, I just dont want to get involved" and then she answered "but you have to do it for me".

I believe my mom is not borderline but she surely has traits. It seems none of the 5 siblings is "normal". The enmeshment is appaling.

Shes in her 80´s and its pretty much established Ill take care of her (Im an only child). Not only that, but she´d be happy if I got involved in caring more and more... .Seems I dont deserve to have a life of my own (and pretty much I dont, still now, in my early 40´s).

There´s this idea in my family that the children are supposed to take care of their parents, but what about me? Single, no kids, no family (Im NC for obvious reasons). Amazingly, thats not a concern to my mom, her sisters are her priority. But Im venting here... .

Your advice was very helpful indeed, I will look other tools as you suggested, but I dont think she will solve her problems by herself, the dysfunction is going on for ages and I feel I carry too much burden. Honestly, I just want to run away and never come back. You are right, she wants me to solve her problems and to me it seems she seems me as an object to serve her (VERY BPD!).

HappyChappy, you made me laugh about the bladder issue.  But dont forget that BPDs are always sicker than us, so no matter how bad we feel, we still have to do things for them. ;-)

Linda Maria, yep, I feel crazy. Yesterday I was completelly enraged and drained at the end of the day, as if I had been beaten up for hours. This is partially because Im still apalled that my mom sides with her sisters, instead of me. Im the one living with her, taking her to doctors, etc. And still, her sisters deserve a better treatment.

Im aware that this is MY mistake, big one. I shouldnt expect anything, it is what it is (radical acceptance). But having to deal with it on a daily basis is having issues at home, even being NC with the rest of the family. This unfairness drove me nuts yesterday and I ended up yelling. I dont want to be in that place again and I know its my fault too, Im trying to make her see things from my perspective, which will never happen. The moment I fully understand this, in an emotional way (cause intelectually I do), it will be better for me.

Thank you all soo much!

[jdtm]

but you have to do it for me

Your reply - "No, I do not have to do it for you - End of discussion".  Boy, this is a hard one to get across - sometimes, one has to leave the situation and/or room.  I do know that when one tries to explain or justify or gain empathy/understanding, the more one talks, the worse it gets.  At least, that has been my discovery (and I was a very slow learner with this life lesson).  Countless times I wish I had simply "shut up" instead of trying to "smooth things over" - it didn't work either.

By the way, laying the guilt trip on re family obligations is just that - a guilt trip.  I do believe a person is responsible for her/his own life and having elderly parents, I do understand how difficult it is to say "no".  Nonetheless, you are not responsible for her life - perhaps to make sure she is safe and cared for - but not to be a servant.  We are all responsible for our choice (and this includes your mother as well as you).  Anyway,  just my opinion ... .

[Louise7777]

Jdtm, thank you! Yup, you are right. I do feel like a servant or even slave sometimes. I said "no, I dont have to" and was met with a surprised look. In her world, kids are supposed to do things for the parents ("cause I did that for you when you were a child".

I didnt even respond to that, its so twisted!

Funny thing, today she told me "since you got into that forum you got way worse". I have shared info with her from this forum on how to deal with her sisters. Little did I know it would be used against me! This is SOO BPD-like its scaring me to death! The moment we detach and try to get some distance and independance we are the ones to blame... .

I guess Im still waking up to the reality around me, I hadnt noticed so many BPD traits on her until now... .WOW, another BPD!

But Im in a better place right now, thanks to you all. The truth will set you free, right? 

[HappyChappy]

HappyChappy, you made me laugh about the bladder issue.   But dont forget that BPDs are always sicker than us, so no matter how bad we feel, we still have to do things for them. ;-)

No you don't. BPD are extreamly good at getting us to do things for them. So you just need to be incapsitated. Leave them a number for a handyman, call them a home help, call them an ambulence. You don't need to do anything for them.

When I had leg injury, my uBPD wanted me to climb a ladder, because she'd just developed vertigo. Guess what - so had I (you'd think a leg injury was enough). If you mirror their argument they can't contest it. I offered to send a handymand round, but guess what, she managed to overcome her vertigo. Of course now I'm NC - she seems to be able to cope also. NC is much better. The truth will set you free in your mind, but white lie helps avoid conflict. I guess its not black and white (unless you're a BPD).

[Linda Maria]

Hi Louise!  It is spooky how many of the BPD traits you recognise once you know more about the condition. I like to help people, and my sister used to really take advantage of that.  She renewed her computer printer, but had some problems with it - so used to email me things she'd done and ask me to print off and post out for her!  It was a bit of a pain, but I carried on doing it for months, then last year when things started turning nasty I thought - No - not going to keep doing that.  She won't get her printer working if I keep doing it.  She rang me one day, being nice, telling me what a pain it was - she had to go to the library to get stuff printed etc. and then there was a pause in the conversation, where I was clearly expected - as I'd always done before - to say - No worries - just email it to me - I'd love to spend my morning printing multiple copies for you, then go to the post office and sort it out - not like I have anything better to do!  When I didn't say this, but went onto another subject, her manner changed and the phone call ended very quickly!  There were loads of other similar things - one thing I don't miss since I'm NC is all the little jobs I was always doing!  Gotta laugh!  JB

[Louise7777]

HappyChappy, Im aware I dont have to anything. I was just stating how they think (I didnt make myself clear).

To be honest, Im beyond the phase of providing them with phone numbers or giving them ideas on how to solve an issue. Im NC with my uBPD relatives now, but in the past they always talked about their problems nonstop, expecting me to volunteer. Of course my help was never enough and even my handymen (and doctors) were no good, so it was my fault in the end.

Now I rarely meet them, only at family gatherings once a year. They still try to make me solve things, and I merely say "oh, yeah, Im familiar with that situation, its annoying" or any other non-commited answer. I change the subject and they are clearly disturbed but cant rage with me, after all Im being polite. 

Your idea of mirroying their argument was great, I loved it!

Linda Maria, Im familiar with your situation too. I believe that generally speaking, they can do the task themselves, they just dont want to. Its a way to control us, to see how far they can make us work for them. My uBPDs are very clever regarding their own finances, for instance. But when it comes to go buy aspirin, suddenly they need me, in the middle of the night. I guess they enjoy having this entourage around them, to serve them. Of course when we refuse, they find a way (or another person). Im familiar with that pause too, it was actually funny for me to see the silence and then the anger. We were tamed, everytime they said "jump", we´d ask "how high?". Now I take my time to see if I want to do that. Usually I dont. 

My mom told me today her uBPD sister is dealing with the situation. "Thats great" was my answer. It seems all is good so far. I dont want to know about it and theres peace at home.

[Coral]

Ughhhhhhhh... .the persistence, the energy... .it's exhausting.  WHERE do they get it?