Are there red flags about us?

[elessar]

I've been wondering... .when my ex came back after 4 yrs in late 2010, she started dumping all her problems about her parental abuse on me. I was her knight. I did not see the   but my friends did. within a couple of weeks of her being back, the stories she would tell me and i would be talking about it with my friends, they all saw something is wrong and told me to stay away. i've spent all these years wondering how did i miss it.

to the main point - moving forward it is imperative for me to know the girl's history so i do not miss any crazy   . for example, my ex's soon be to finance agreed to marry her as an arranged marriage because she is a successful dentist and quite beautiful, after knowing her long distance for a month or so. he is missing a ton of   , including that she was sleeping with me and wanting to marry me while their marriage talk was going on. i don't want to be that guy in the future with another woman.

but if i must know a woman's past, she must know mine. and me being stuck up over my ex for half my life... .isn't that a huge  ? i would wonder the same thing... .why did this guy (meaning myself) tolerate all that manipulative and abusive behavior?

[.cup.car]

why did this guy tolerate all that manipulative and abusive behavior?

because she is quite beautiful

BPD girls live in an unfortunate state of arrested development, as if you took a perpetually hormonal 12 year old and gave it the body and power of an adult. This is an especially dangerous combination because attractive girls, no matter how crazy, are essentially allowed to get away with anything in our society. These girls will be incredible manipulators and will turn people against you, since there is never a shortage of white knights ready to assuage a pretty girl's perceived distress.

[pieceofme]

i know i tolerated manipulative and abusive behavior that i would NEVER accept from someone else. i think we overlook the red flags because we love them. we would do anything to "save" them. we keep thinking that if we stand by them, they will realize how much we love them and maybe they will change.

[Bak86]

i know i tolerated manipulative and abusive behavior that i would NEVER accept from someone else. i think we overlook the red flags because we love them. we would do anything to "save" them. we keep thinking that if we stand by them, they will realize how much we love them and maybe they will change.

pretty much this

[Infared]

why did this guy tolerate all that manipulative and abusive behavior?

because she is quite beautiful

BPD girls live in an unfortunate state of arrested development, as if you took a perpetually hormonal 12 year old and gave it the body and power of an adult. This is an especially dangerous combination because attractive girls, no matter how crazy, are essentially allowed to get away with anything in our society. These girls will be incredible manipulators and will turn people against you, since there is never a shortage of white knights ready to assuage a pretty girl's perceived distress.

Amen to that truth.

[winston72]

As to "red flags" about yourself, what needs and desires are/were you fulfilling by seeking to take care of your ex?  From reading some of your earlier posts, it seems like you enjoyed the role of her white knight and that you took a kind of pride in being able to show patience and tolerance toward her while subordinating your own feelings.  I wonder if the "red flag" designation is more helpful to understand how you set yourself up for dissatisfaction in a relationship rather than being a point of disqualification for you with another person. 

[Tausk]

I wrote the below before about people who might date me now.

The      were too numerous to count.

And yes, it helps to know that we all have the same patterns.

But how does that knowledge help me to detach?  :)oes it mean all the fault is with my ex?  :)oes it mean that my ex is sick, and that I'm the one that is OK?

The people who date me will cite:

- obsessive about crzy ex after years apart

- so pathetic that his family and friends won't even listen to him talk about ex anymore.

- denial and unaware of FOO issues

- maladaptive schemas

- can't change

- self centered

- altruistic/closet narcissist

- reads messages on boards written by BPD's when he says he's not BPD

 - filled with shame

- lack of self esteem

- is a billion times better at complaining about others than fixing himself.

- blames long ago ex for problems today and plays vicitm

 - won't get deeply into therapy

- ruminates over and over and over and thinks it's others people fault

- is angry all the time because it was someone else's fault

- still live in fantasy world about bat sht crazy ex

- has never lived up to potential

- has mommy/daddy issues

- prone to bouts of depression

- can't depersonalize an interaction with a severely mentally ill person

- LIVES THROUGH A FALSE SENSE OF SELF

- ... .

It's good for me to know that I'm not alone.  It's good for me to see the  's for self awareness.  

It's good to understand that it's a part of the pattern of interaction with the Disorder.

But, The above only matters if I can turn it around and use the information to help me look at myself.

[Blimblam]

Good point tausk. I think it is important to realize that we probably shouldn't date until we have healed and there is nothing wrong with that.

[winston72]

Hey Tausk!  Other than those red flags, everything is cool! 

Well, you are certainly self aware, if not a bit harsh on yourself.  I think my list is just as long as yours, with just a change in some of the topics. 

I have learned a lot about myself through understanding more of how my ex behaved.  I was a compliment to many of her behaviors and I have also come to see many similar patterns and attitudes within myself that I found so hurtful in her. 

[tired-of-it-all]

I have thought about this issue a lot.  It is obvious that the BPD smells a sucker.  They can certainly smell me.  I believe that it is similar to a really dishonest used car salesman.

When we are young and don't know better, the dishonest salesman can smell blood and take advantage of us.  As we get older, we learn how to read the signs, how to not believe the sales pitch, how to do business without getting screwed.  The dishonest salesman makes us believe in something that really doesn't exist.  He makes us believe the car will make us feel special.  He makes us believe that he cares about us.  He makes us feel sorry for him and feel that we need to help him by agreeing to his deal.

It is similar with the BPD relationship.  I feel sorry for her.  I think she cares about me.  I think she is the answer to all my life's emotional needs.  None of that is true.  She doesn't care about me.  She just wants to get what she wants.

I need to grow up emotionally.  I need to learn that this type of person is bad for me.  I need to accept that she is a con-man and a lying piece of s**t.  I need to learn that she will be fine without me and that I am only being used and used up.  I learned it with the dishonest care salesman to the point that I don't buy my cars from people like that.  I need to learn a similar lesson in my personal relationships.

[pieceofme]

I have thought about this issue a lot.  It is obvious that the BPD smells a sucker.  They can certainly smell me.  I believe that it is similar to a really dishonest used car salesman.

When we are young and don't know better, the dishonest salesman can smell blood and take advantage of us.  As we get older, we learn how to read the signs, how to not believe the sales pitch, how to do business without getting screwed.  The dishonest salesman makes us believe in something that really doesn't exist.  He makes us believe the car will make us feel special.  He makes us believe that he cares about us.  He makes us feel sorry for him and feel that we need to help him by agreeing to his deal.

It is similar with the BPD relationship.  I feel sorry for her.  I think she cares about me.  I think she is the answer to all my life's emotional needs.  None of that is true.  She doesn't care about me.  She just wants to get what she wants.

I need to grow up emotionally.  I need to learn that this type of person is bad for me.  I need to accept that she is a con-man and a lying piece of s**t.  I need to learn that she will be fine without me and that I am only being used and used up.  I learned it with the dishonest care salesman to the point that I don't buy my cars from people like that.  I need to learn a similar lesson in my personal relationships.

what a perfect analogy!

[winston72]

Tired of it All!  Great metaphor!  Really helpful.  And I, like so many people, want to be sold, want to believe what I am being sold... .I am a willing, even eager participant in the sell... .even the con.  And the path forward is not to convince to used car salesman to change their style of business or burn endless energy convincing them their way of doing business is wrong... .it is to understand ourselves, why we believed it all... .and then shop elsewhere!

[Huh?]

i know i tolerated manipulative and abusive behavior that i would NEVER accept from someone else. i think we overlook the red flags because we love them. we would do anything to "save" them. we keep thinking that if we stand by them, they will realize how much we love them and maybe they will change.

yeah, this.  Its romantic idealism at its worst. 

[Lolster]

I have thought about this issue a lot.  It is obvious that the BPD smells a sucker.  They can certainly smell me.  I believe that it is similar to a really dishonest used car salesman.

When we are young and don't know better, the dishonest salesman can smell blood and take advantage of us.  As we get older, we learn how to read the signs, how to not believe the sales pitch, how to do business without getting screwed.  The dishonest salesman makes us believe in something that really doesn't exist.  He makes us believe the car will make us feel special.  He makes us believe that he cares about us.  He makes us feel sorry for him and feel that we need to help him by agreeing to his deal.

It is similar with the BPD relationship.  I feel sorry for her.  I think she cares about me.  I think she is the answer to all my life's emotional needs.  None of that is true.  She doesn't care about me.  She just wants to get what she wants.

I need to grow up emotionally.  I need to learn that this type of person is bad for me.  I need to accept that she is a con-man and a lying piece of s**t.  I need to learn that she will be fine without me and that I am only being used and used up.  I learned it with the dishonest care salesman to the point that I don't buy my cars from people like that.  I need to learn a similar lesson in my personal relationships.

This!

Whilst it's good to reflect on what we could improve about ourselves, over thinking "What is wrong with us?" still places the blame on us for someone else's behaviour.

I had a good T who worked with the criminally insane and he made it clear to me that the manipulation of these kind of people leave us with a deer/rabbit caught in the headlights effect:



Definition of like a deer or rabbit in the headlights:

like a deer  (or rabbit) in the headlights


Used to refer to a state of fear, panic, or confusion so extreme that it is impossible to act or think normally:

‘faced with too many choices and not enough real information, we are like deer caught in the headlights’

‘his deer-in-the-headlights expression’

We need to recognise and then flee those headlights.

[BorisAcusio]

Hey Tausk!  Other than those red flags, everything is cool!  

Well, you are certainly self aware, if not a bit harsh on yourself.  I think my list is just as long as yours, with just a change in some of the topics.  

I have learned a lot about myself through understanding more of how my ex behaved.  I was a compliment to many of her behaviors and I have also come to see many similar patterns and attitudes within myself that I found so hurtful in her.  

I found the same traits in myself that Tausk highlighted. Those are running just as deep as the pwBPDs own problems, and that's why the disordered fantasy was so incredibly rewarding, despite all the lying, cheating and devaluation.  

[Stjarna]

i know i tolerated manipulative and abusive behavior that i would NEVER accept from someone else. i think we overlook the red flags because we love them. we would do anything to "save" them. we keep thinking that if we stand by them, they will realize how much we love them and maybe they will change.

Yes, this about hits the nail on the head.

[Stjarna]

I have thought about this issue a lot.  It is obvious that the BPD smells a sucker.  They can certainly smell me.  I believe that it is similar to a really dishonest used car salesman.

When we are young and don't know better, the dishonest salesman can smell blood and take advantage of us.  As we get older, we learn how to read the signs, how to not believe the sales pitch, how to do business without getting screwed.  The dishonest salesman makes us believe in something that really doesn't exist.  He makes us believe the car will make us feel special.  He makes us believe that he cares about us.  He makes us feel sorry for him and feel that we need to help him by agreeing to his deal.

It is similar with the BPD relationship.  I feel sorry for her.  I think she cares about me.  I think she is the answer to all my life's emotional needs.  None of that is true.  She doesn't care about me.  She just wants to get what she wants.

I need to grow up emotionally.  I need to learn that this type of person is bad for me.  I need to accept that she is a con-man and a lying piece of s**t.  I need to learn that she will be fine without me and that I am only being used and used up.  I learned it with the dishonest care salesman to the point that I don't buy my cars from people like that.  I need to learn a similar lesson in my personal relationships.

Thank you for this.  In addition to it ringing so true, I even got a little laugh over it this morning because my ex actually was a car salesman, a very high-selling one at that.    

[hergestridge]

If someone sees "has not lived up to his full potential" as a red flag, then that person must be a scientologist or something. Don't we all have some work left to do on ourselves? 

The thing that I find it hardest to explain (and which I assume ppl would see as a kind of "red flag" is why I stayed in a relationship with a mentally ill person for 20 years, had a child with with her towards the end of that relationship, and that the relationship was ended on her initiative.

I am afraid that it will look like I have a much bigger problem than I in fact have. People in general have absolutely no knowledge of BPD, but giving someone a lesson on your ex wive's psychiatric diagnosis is not the way to charm the pants of someone.

[willtimeheal]

Tired of it All!  Great metaphor!  Really helpful.  And I, like so many people, want to be sold, want to believe what I am being sold... .I am a willing, even eager participant in the sell... .even the con.  And the path forward is not to convince to used car salesman to change their style of business or burn endless energy convincing them their way of doing business is wrong... .it is to understand ourselves, why we believed it all... .and then shop elsewhere!

Understanding ourselves is the key. It is really easy to blame the BPD. Really easy. The hardest  to do is to look internally at ourselves and take a good look at why we were willing to believe the sell or con. We believed it for a reason... .we can't blame the BPD for that. It's easy to blame someone else. I know once I stopped blaming my BPD and really looked at myself I was  able to find answers and honestly my "issues" and why I fell for the "con" were there long before I ever met my BPD. Throwing blame is an easy way out.

[hergestridge]

Tired of it All!  Great metaphor!  Really helpful.  And I, like so many people, want to be sold, want to believe what I am being sold... .I am a willing, even eager participant in the sell... .even the con.  And the path forward is not to convince to used car salesman to change their style of business or burn endless energy convincing them their way of doing business is wrong... .it is to understand ourselves, why we believed it all... .and then shop elsewhere!

Understanding ourselves is the key. It is really easy to blame the BPD. Really easy. The hardest  to do is to look internally at ourselves and take a good look at why we were willing to believe the sell or con. We believed it for a reason... .we can't blame the BPD for that. It's easy to blame someone else. I know once I stopped blaming my BPD and really looked at myself I was  able to find answers and honestly my "issues" and why I fell for the "con" were there long before I ever met my BPD. Throwing blame is an easy way out.

We believed it for several reasons I'd say. There is not one reason why a person choses to stay with a pwBPD as a "non". There are several possible scenarios.

Let's look at it this way; one of the main reasons I did not get out of my 20 year relationship was that I consistently refused to throw blame where it would have appropriate to do so. Once I started doing so my relationship began to crack.

I understod the problems quite early on and what I (and most of us) dealt with is a person who alters between dysfunction and normalcy. I was given the information by both my wife and health professionals for *years* that the problem was treatable and things were going to be just fine. And then of course a lot of the things I had to endure - I was told I was imagining, or exaggerating.

I was manipulated financially, with threats of suiciced, I was isolated from my friends. I did *a lot* of things to keep that from happening. I did try to pull the plug , call her bluff and end the relationship when nothing else seemed to work out but then I was gaslighted or simply ignored.

Looking back I used to think I had a lot more "issues" than I turned out to have, something my wife used against me. pwBPD are experts at thinking their issues are our issues.

I don't know if it's helpful for a person in a breakup from a BPD relationship to just state that "we have issues before we even met them", because we don't know which these issues are, how big these issues are of even if there are any.

Some people are simply just "in it for life" types (for religious or other reasons) who end up in BPD relationships. Post-breakup those people may be more helped by finding out what the ___ just happened. That's the process I'm in now, even though my rs was 20 years!

I certainly did not "fall for" my wife in any way. It was a chance meeting and I had just decided that if I met a girl that wanted to stay with me forever, then I would stay with her forever. Childish and romantic, I know. But it's nothing do with being pre-desitned for "falling for" a certain type of woman.

I realise that there may be a pattern of people in similiar situations, but it's not like that for everybody.

[Infared]

Tired of it All!  Great metaphor!  Really helpful.  And I, like so many people, want to be sold, want to believe what I am being sold... .I am a willing, even eager participant in the sell... .even the con.  And the path forward is not to convince to used car salesman to change their style of business or burn endless energy convincing them their way of doing business is wrong... .it is to understand ourselves, why we believed it all... .and then shop elsewhere!

Understanding ourselves is the key. It is really easy to blame the BPD. Really easy. The hardest  to do is to look internally at ourselves and take a good look at why we were willing to believe the sell or con. We believed it for a reason... .we can't blame the BPD for that. It's easy to blame someone else. I know once I stopped blaming my BPD and really looked at myself I was  able to find answers and honestly my "issues" and why I fell for the "con" were there long before I ever met my BPD. Throwing blame is an easy way out.

What you are saying has a ton of validity... .BUT... .I you are in a relationship being honest, trusting and faithful (I didn't say perfect but you are showing up with all the big stuff), and the other person is lying, cheating and deceiving (regardless if the person is mentally ill) ... .

There is no reason to put the failure of the relationship on your shoulders and I also think some blame can be laid.

[willtimeheal]

Tired of it All!  Great metaphor!  Really helpful.  And I, like so many people, want to be sold, want to believe what I am being sold... .I am a willing, even eager participant in the sell... .even the con.  And the path forward is not to convince to used car salesman to change their style of business or burn endless energy convincing them their way of doing business is wrong... .it is to understand ourselves, why we believed it all... .and then shop elsewhere!

Understanding ourselves is the key. It is really easy to blame the BPD. Really easy. The hardest  to do is to look internally at ourselves and take a good look at why we were willing to believe the sell or con. We believed it for a reason... .we can't blame the BPD for that. It's easy to blame someone else. I know once I stopped blaming my BPD and really looked at myself I was  able to find answers and honestly my "issues" and why I fell for the "con" were there long before I ever met my BPD. Throwing blame is an easy way out.

What you are saying has a ton of validity... .BUT... .I you are in a relationship being honest, trusting and faithful (I didn't say perfect but you are showing up with all the big stuff), and the other person is lying, cheating and deceiving (regardless if the person is mentally ill) ... .

There is no reason to put the failure of the relationship on your shoulders and I also think some blame can be laid.

Infrared... .I agree. They are just as responsible for the relationship failing as we are. Yes they need to take up their share of the responsibility. What I am saying is after she lied and cheated the first time ... .why did I stay?  In any other relationship I would have walked away. That was my responsibility to walk.compass the first time and I didn't. I stayed in the cycle. We all did. Why?  For those answers you have to look internally. You can't blame the BPD because you stayed. That was our choice.

[elessar]

... .why did I stay?  In any other relationship I would have walked away. I stayed in the cycle. Why?

And that is what I am wondering about myself. Well I have part of the answer - extreme romantic idealism like "first love should be the only love to last forever". Also, "I can rescue her and be her knight who took her away from a miserable life and gave her happiness."

But I also think I stayed because I was blamed for it not working. She had turned me down a lot over the years and I never went after her. I respected her hundred No and kept my distance. She came after me every time. But what really changed the dynamics a few years back was that she started blaming me why we aren't working. Bogus reasons or complete lies or unrealistic expectations that no one could meet. But I also stayed trying to show her that I am not that person she is making me out to be. And once I understood BPD, after trying for a few months I stopped trying to show I am not who she makes me when she splits me black.

And that not walking away after first few months of abuse is on me. To let it go for years, I allowed it to happen to me. I tell everyone else to walk away if they are abused. Heck, I pushed her away a bit because of the number of times I told her to walk away from her abusive family. But just like she goes running after them hoping they will change, I went running after her hoping she will change. And that's on me. The advice I gave her is the advice I didn't take for myself.

It doesn't diminish anything she has ever done, but it has got to be somewhat of a   about myself... .

[willtimeheal]

... .why did I stay?  In any other relationship I would have walked away. I stayed in the cycle. Why?

And that is what I am wondering about myself. Well I have part of the answer - extreme romantic idealism like "first love should be the only love to last forever". Also, "I can rescue her and be her knight who took her away from a miserable life and gave her happiness."

But I also think I stayed because I was blamed for it not working. She had turned me down a lot over the years and I never went after her. I respected her hundred No and kept my distance. She came after me every time. But what really changed the dynamics a few years back was that she started blaming me why we aren't working. Bogus reasons or complete lies or unrealistic expectations that no one could meet. But I also stayed trying to show her that I am not that person she is making me out to be. And once I understood BPD, after trying for a few months I stopped trying to show I am not who she makes me when she splits me black.

And that not walking away after first few months of abuse is on me. To let it go for years, I allowed it to happen to me. I tell everyone else to walk away if they are abused. Heck, I pushed her away a bit because of the number of times I told her to walk away from her abusive family. But just like she goes running after them hoping they will change, I went running after her hoping she will change. And that's on me. The advice I gave her is the advice I didn't take for myself.

It doesn't diminish anything she has ever done, but it has got to be somewhat of a   about myself... .

The part about her abusive family hit home. Her family is so SO toxic. She knows this and her therapist has told her she must limit the contact with them. Her response... .your family is your family no matter how dysfunctional. I could never walk away.

She has a very weird relationship with her brother and she always says I will never understand it. Now I am wondering if I want to... .I don't think I want to know what has happened between them.

She won't ever leave to toxic family due to their abandonment issues so she will never leave the cycle of abuse.

[elessar]

your family is your family

"Your family is your family, even if they kill you." or "That is their way of showing love and care". If I got a penny for every time I heard that... .

And seeing her getting so freaking close to her family over the last few months is burning a hole in my heart. It hurts even more than her abandoning me. It hurts even more than her getting married. Because it is like I gave her everything and I "lost". All they have done is abuse and control her, and they "won".

[maternal]

Because it is like I gave her everything and I "lost". All they have done is abuse and control her, and they "won".

I know that this isn't technically meant to be taken literally, but that all looks like a no-win situation to me.  For anyone involved.

You're the one who truly won because you got away from that FUBAR'ed situation.  You gotta recognize your win in this situation, no matter how much it hurts.  I know this pain, but I won when I got out, and I continue to win every moment that I stay out.  And so do you.

[mywifecrazy]

- so pathetic that his family and friends won't even listen to him talk about ex anymore.

My God this is me and I HAVE TO STOP!  I can see family and friends getting tired when I go on and on about her crazy behavior. OK she's CRAZY WE GET IT. I need to start practicing NC with my thoughts!

MWC... .

[Huh?]

I dont know how many times I had to hold and hold my crying uBPD waif ex fiance because of some abuse performed on  her by toxic family.  My advice to her, was to keep them at arms length... .but try and maintain a relationship with them from a distance... .trying to give healthy advice.

One by one, I was cut off and deleted on FB by her family members.  And now she has done the same to me. Poof, its all gone!  

[pieceofme]

- so pathetic that his family and friends won't even listen to him talk about ex anymore.

My God this is me and I HAVE TO STOP!  I can see family and friends getting tired when I go on and on about her crazy behavior. OK she's CRAZY WE GET IT. I need to start practicing NC with my thoughts!

MWC... .

sadly, i'm in the same boat!

[Infared]

Tired of it All!  Great metaphor!  Really helpful.  And I, like so many people, want to be sold, want to believe what I am being sold... .I am a willing, even eager participant in the sell... .even the con.  And the path forward is not to convince to used car salesman to change their style of business or burn endless energy convincing them their way of doing business is wrong... .it is to understand ourselves, why we believed it all... .and then shop elsewhere!

Understanding ourselves is the key. It is really easy to blame the BPD. Really easy. The hardest  to do is to look internally at ourselves and take a good look at why we were willing to believe the sell or con. We believed it for a reason... .we can't blame the BPD for that. It's easy to blame someone else. I know once I stopped blaming my BPD and really looked at myself I was  able to find answers and honestly my "issues" and why I fell for the "con" were there long before I ever met my BPD. Throwing blame is an easy way out.

What you are saying has a ton of validity... .BUT... .I you are in a relationship being honest, trusting and faithful (I didn't say perfect but you are showing up with all the big stuff), and the other person is lying, cheating and deceiving (regardless if the person is mentally ill) ... .

There is no reason to put the failure of the relationship on your shoulders and I also think some blame can be laid.

Infrared... .I agree. They are just as responsible for the relationship failing as we are. Yes they need to take up their share of the responsibility. What I am saying is after she lied and cheated the first time ... .why did I stay?  In any other relationship I would have walked away. That was my responsibility to walk.compass the first time and I didn't. I stayed in the cycle. We all did. Why?  For those answers you have to look internally. You can't blame the BPD because you stayed. That was our choice.

That is not part of my story. She was cheating on me and ran off a week before Christmas lying, and left me in our home feeding her cats and putting up a Christmas tree by myself... .I was not even sure for a while... .they are excellent cheats especially to descent people... .they take your kindness and trust as stupidity. THEIR LOSS. I went into therapy after she left... .yes... I was devastated... .a year later with great pressure from me she indirectly related that I was correct, that she had cheated. It was a smug indirect reference. Their was no direct admission or any apology. When I was told this I told her that she was not the person that she had presented to me and to stay out of my life. I have never talked to her since although she has tried on numerous occasions to make contact with me.  I attribute my resolve to hard work with a good therapist. I was a good guy, and I refuse to beat myself up for her horrible behavior. That is what I hold onto for sanity... .my good behavior. I worked thru the breakup like a dignified mature adult, albeit in a lot of emotional pain... .she acted like a spoiled 7th grader as did her new Bo. Their behavior hurt me deeply at that time, but  now that I am distanced from it, I can see it was cruely pathetic. Truly.