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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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KeepOnGoing
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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2014, 10:17:14 PM »

Thank you for all of your comments. All of this really does help. I think a couple of things raise some concerns for me:

One is the fact that many of you say it has been a couple of years and you're still obsessed. Please tell me that we're going to move through this sooner than that. Where's the magic bullet? Therapy? I feel like I have spent so much money on therapy over the years. During times like this I feel like I have learned absolutely nothing.

Second, I don't really know if the person I was so involved with is borderline or not. In fact we weren't romantically involved. She did once ask me if I was sexually attracted to her. I refused to answer. She was just a friend. And to make this even more complicated, I'm in a committed monogamous relationship with a healthy person. But I got hooked in with this friendship that obviously turned into infatuation. I now think she really is borderline and I am hooked and crazy and trying to not let it interfere with my current somewhat healthy relationship. I hope that doesn't mean I don't belong on this board. While we were not romantically involved, it felt like we were doing the dance, so to speak for nearly three years. The idealization phase definitely happened. So maybe some of you are reading this and chuckling to yourselves. Saying, yeah, right, call it what you want, if you were hooked, it's romantically involved.

Third, it sounds to me that the root of a lot of the obsession is my seeing this person in one way that was presented to me, and then my riding in on a white horse trying to rescue her, then catching on to the "come here go away" dance. In other words seeing the borderline person in a completely different light and then finding out that most people who know her will say to me now, well, she clearly has a mental illness, and it showed all along. Like, why can't you figure that out and just move on? Good question. That's how and why I ended up here. This isn't my first ride on the crazy train. I have the uncanny ability to get hooked by people like this. I have a long history of it, and yet, I'm in a healthy relationship, and I guess seek to screw it up by obsessing on crazy?

Fourth, you're right. Most people are tired of hearing about this, including my ever patient partner. So thank you for the letting me talk.
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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2014, 11:02:16 PM »

If it takes someone years and they are still obsessed, then they need to examine themselves as Co-dependent. It's been five months for me, I do have very bad days still but I'm really getting over it because she was sick. I'm better than that. And your ex? Maybe isn't borderline, or maybe she is. What's more important is that you do not try to analyze her actions. Keep a low profile.
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« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2014, 01:44:18 AM »

I found this site about ten days ago. I have read so many posts, lessons, and hours upon hours of readings here. I have joined in on at least 10 or so posts. I feel at this point, all of my deep questions have been truly answered here. I was originally obsessing over my ex because I just did not really understand what the hell happened. How can this sweet, kind passionate man switch from Jekyll to Hyde in a split second. How could he tell me that he loves me so deeply yesterday and then the next day not know how he feels about me. Truthfully this site really did have all of the answers that I so deeply needed to know and understand. As difficult as it was to swallow some of it because I love him with all of my heart, I accept what I read. It's time to accept and move forward with me. I have neglected the importance of myself by focusing every ounce of me on him. I refuse to spend any more time and energy continuing this cycle of everything being about him anymore. Yes there are some tough moments everytime somebody asks where he is from one of my social groups, but I don't let it be more than a moment, again now it's about me getting healthy again. He truly is not worring about me anymore, so somebody has to! I hope to be off of this site soon because I have taken the knowledge I can get and hopefully share it to make somebody else's journey toward themselves easier. I know it has to happen soon. Sept 3 will be a month since our breakup. I am 10 days nc. Together 9 months. I just refuse to suffer any longer for love for somebody who has no love for me. I have suffered enough turmoil trying to please him. I am so much happier the last 10 days. The weight of the world lifted from my shoulders. On my way to recovery finding myself and loving the wonderful me as I always had before I experienced trying to help a disorder I knew nothing about.i have taken full responsibility for accepting such poor treatment, love me, love me not episodes, verbal attacks, mistrust, and not stepping away from this the first time I knew I should before the first recycle. It is what it is and I have learned to be safer the next time. I am taking a time out for myself and my heart to heal because I do mourn a real love that I had, even if it was only one sided. It's a good day, I made it 24 hours without crying. I don't have to hear anymore lies anymore and question myself. I am in a better place today. Tomorrow will be even better because I want it to be that way. I am in charge of me and my emotions. Sorry for ranting, it's part of my healing. Have a good Monday everybody. I hope that you all start ranting and taking your emotions back and worry about yourselves. I was getting so sick from my exBPDbf. I'm taking control of my health and well being again. This week I will delete all pictures, pack up his memories, and try to stop looking backwards at what was. It's time for what will be!
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« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2014, 06:11:58 AM »

If it takes someone years and they are still obsessed, then they need to examine themselves as Co-dependent. It's been five months for me, I do have very bad days still but I'm really getting over it because she was sick. I'm better than that. And your ex? Maybe isn't borderline, or maybe she is. What's more important is that you do not try to analyze her actions. Keep a low profile.

Codependency is not a well definied subject. Some psychologists suggested that codependents are actually vulnerable or covert narcissists.

Excerpt
Sam Vaknin—"a self-help author who openly discusses his experiences as a person with narcissistic personality disorder"[17]—has identified a special sub-class of such codependents as "inverted narcissists."

Inverted or "covert" narcissists are people who are "intensely attuned to others' needs, but only in so far as it relates to [their] own need to perform the requisite sacrifice"—an "inverted narcissist, who ensures that with compulsive care-giving, supplies of gratitude, love and attention will always be readily available ... .[pseudo-]saintly."[18] Vaknin considered that "the inverted narcissist is a person who grew up enthralled by the narcissistic parent ... .the child becomes a masterful provider of narcissistic supply, a perfect match to the parent's personality."

In everyday life, the inverted narcissist "demands anonymity ... .uncomfortable with any attention being paid to him ... .[with] praise that cannot be deflected." Recovery means the ability to recognize the self-destructive elements in one's character structure, and to "develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself."

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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2014, 06:18:30 AM »

Yes with this logic i.e. calling a caregiver or a compassionate person an inverted narcissist is like calling Jesus an inverted Antichrist.

What would you prefer? Personally neither. Keeping in the middle is the most challenging thing to achieve.

A zen saying comes to mind. It's easier to walk on water than to walk on earth
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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2014, 06:28:17 AM »

Yes with this logic i.e. calling a caregiver or a compassionate person an inverted narcissist is like calling Jesus an inverted Antichrist.

What would you prefer? Personally neither. Keeping in the middle is the most challenging thing to achieve.

A zen saying comes to mind. It's easier to walk on water than to walk on earth

Compulsively seeking validation from an external source, is not about geniune compassion or care, just a form of narcissistic supply.

As respectable member 2010 pointed out, until the fantasy brokes down, the vulnerable narcissist is the ideal match for a pwBPD
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« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2014, 06:58:55 AM »

Compulsively seeking validation from an external source, is not about geniune compassion or care, just a form of narcissistic supply.

All acts can be seen as if they are done with the purpose of an ultimate aim that implies gain i.e. everything can be seen in self-referential terms. I am spending time with someone because that makes me feel good - the experience of spending time with them is rewarding. I am attached to the experience with them. I start building a bond with them and I eventually love them because of what they are and also because it allows them to give me something nice. Does that make sense? Is it narcissistic? Is it healthy? Is it all about me? About them? About both?

It all depends where one draws the line. And the line is drawn in one's head. It is you and I that are making these judgements in our head as we type i.e. how we perceive an act (is it genuine? not genuine? for self? for other?).

I pretty much see it as a balancing act and there is a massive grey area in the middle. I am not much of a caregiver myself if my care is not reciprocated. I ended the rs after a few months. I don't have much patience for giving care if someone abuses or is starting to playing games with me - I even turned vengeful towards the end with her, trapped in a power struggle. Aside all this which is all human feelings and reactions, I do feel sorry for what my ex has gone through in her life and will continue to.  And I also feel sorry for myself (perhaps less so than I should have) and for what I have been through.

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« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2014, 08:23:37 AM »

I think you hit the nail right on the head for me, Boris. The piece about an inverted narcissist. Thank you. Something for me to ponder and take to my therapist this week.
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« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2014, 09:42:35 AM »

I'm obsessed too.  I understand how you feel.  I want so bad to not be obessessd.  He's not worth a minute of my time let alone 24-7.  He didn't rage much.  Like others commented he was much more passive aggressive but I could see the hate in his eyes and hear it in his voice.  I'm convinced now he is not only BPD but a sociopath.  One rage he did have I'll never forget.  It was horrifying but if he would have raged more I would have tried to leave sooner and he knew that.
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« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2014, 09:59:26 AM »

My ex always carried a book about psychopaths with her and often referred to it. She said she'd thought about it, and decided I wasn't one. I'm not sure what the relevance of this is. Maybe she realized she had no empathy and thought she might be one. She said she couldn't be one because she cared about her gran. But maybe she just feared losing her to old age. I certainly saw no evidence of her caring about anyone, including me. She knew a lot about personality disorders and had clearly read a lot about them. I think she knew, but could not accept. Maybe she needed to find an easier explanation. it's all very complicated.
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« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2014, 12:37:13 PM »

Guys, your reading way to much into this. It's completely normal to be obsessing especially when someone abuses you. And all you want is closure. I was completely obsessed with answers when my ex left me suddenly. It's natural Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Stop thinking it's going to hell in a hand basket. We are all a little crazy considering what we've been thru.
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« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2014, 01:54:46 PM »

If it takes someone years and they are still obsessed, then they need to examine themselves as Co-dependent. It's been five months for me, I do have very bad days still but I'm really getting over it because she was sick. I'm better than that. And your ex? Maybe isn't borderline, or maybe she is. What's more important is that you do not try to analyze her actions. Keep a low profile.

Codependency is not a well definied subject. Some psychologists suggested that codependents are actually vulnerable or covert narcissists.

Excerpt
Sam Vaknin—"a self-help author who openly discusses his experiences as a person with narcissistic personality disorder"[17]—has identified a special sub-class of such codependents as "inverted narcissists."

Inverted or "covert" narcissists are people who are "intensely attuned to others' needs, but only in so far as it relates to [their] own need to perform the requisite sacrifice"—an "inverted narcissist, who ensures that with compulsive care-giving, supplies of gratitude, love and attention will always be readily available ... .[pseudo-]saintly."[18] Vaknin considered that "the inverted narcissist is a person who grew up enthralled by the narcissistic parent ... .the child becomes a masterful provider of narcissistic supply, a perfect match to the parent's personality."

In everyday life, the inverted narcissist "demands anonymity ... .uncomfortable with any attention being paid to him ... .[with] praise that cannot be deflected." Recovery means the ability to recognize the self-destructive elements in one's character structure, and to "develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself."


Sam Vaknin's occupation is listed as writer. Is there a clinical source BorisAcusio for "inverted narcissist"? You state some psychologists, which?

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vaknin
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« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2014, 02:10:30 PM »

Sam Vakin does make sense to me, however some obsessing i believe is just your way of trying to piece it all together to find closure. We all seem to forget cluster b people can project their behaviour on us to a point where we question our sanity.
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« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2014, 02:27:28 PM »

I find the following generalisations and the assumptions that underlie them disturbing:

1) Most of people that have been involved in a BPD relationship have codependency or some other problem. This sometimes is presented as a given / self-evident.

2) Codependency is a form of inverted narcissism - this was mentioned earlier.

With regards codependency it is worth noting that codependency was proposed for inclusion in DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) and rejected because there are so many symptoms almost anyone could be diagnosed with codependency. Everyone can be codependent under certain circumstances, particularly people that have gone through some traumatic xp and exposed in a rs with pwBPD.  These rs become toxic as you know through 'intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment that creates powerful emotional bonds that are resistant to change.' That's what they use to brainwash people in secret services and in the army. Powerful stuff.

There is no proof whatsover that people involved in an abusive rs w a pwBPD are predisposed to specific characteristics or character traits. The 'counselling survivors of domestic abuse manual' says:

'while there are vulnerability factors that elevate the risk of domestic abuse such as previous history of victimisation, or traumatisation during childhood, these are not personality defects or disturbances. In essence such vulnerability factors reflect damaged self-structures which prevent survivors from identifying their needs. counsellors must ensure they do not pathologise survivors, or collude in victim blaming'

I find that presuming that most people here are some form of codependents (which is not even a real definition) and in turn inverted narcissists (a term that NPD Sam Vaknin made up - that's where he drew the line and that's how he sees the world in his narciccistic mind - see my earlier comment above about drawing lines). For all these reasons I find such assumptions and generalisations neither accurate nor helpful.
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« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2014, 02:33:19 PM »

You are right, as I said when you are in a relationship as bad as some of ours, and then your abuser ends it, you do feel obsessed with fixing it or finding answers. If anything it shows empathy which is something a narcissist does not have.
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« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2014, 02:36:47 PM »

It makes sense when you realise you were an object to them, something useful for the time being.

It's difficult to accept this, but you really are just like a can of drink - useful while full, discarded when empty. It's tough to accept this, since we don't think of our partners in the same way. Normal people in love want their partner to be happy, enjoy surprising them or doing kind things. I think PDs do nothing genuinely for another, only to get something in return. There's an element of "using" in all relationships - we are there to get our needs met. But love involves genuine compassion and empathy, which I think these people often don't really experience because they are too preoccupied with surviving the disorder hour by hour.

This is very true.  When my exbf broke up our relationship, he said that I was "too giving" for him and it made him anxious.  In the discussion that followed, he was adamant that no one ever gives anything unselfishly, and that the motive of giving was to control - to get that person to stay in the relationship.  Projection, I think.  It was near on impossible to explain that I just wanted to naturally do things that might make him happy and that many other people had done so for me in the past.  The sad thing is that he couldn't just let himself receive the thing that deep down he craved the most - it still doesn't make sense to me.
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« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2014, 05:07:56 PM »

I don't wish to get into a terminology discussion. I do think that a certain type of person falls for the BPD idealisation stage. The one where they tell us that we are the ones that "get us" that we are their true love that they have been waiting for and talk about marriage and kids in the first 2 weeks, A person with stronger boundaries would say "whoa, wait a minute, we've only known each other for 2 weeks" but most of us here fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Therapy has shown me that I had some deep lonely child issues and my inner child had, in effect, been waiting for someone to sweep me off my feet.

Most people I know would not have taken the bait like I did.

I find the following generalisations and the assumptions that underlie them disturbing:

1) Most of people that have been involved in a BPD relationship have codependency or some other problem. This sometimes is presented as a given / self-evident.

2) Codependency is a form of inverted narcissism - this was mentioned earlier.

With regards codependency it is worth noting that codependency was proposed for inclusion in DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) and rejected because there are so many symptoms almost anyone could be diagnosed with codependency. Everyone can be codependent under certain circumstances, particularly people that have gone through some traumatic xp and exposed in a rs with pwBPD.  These rs become toxic as you know through 'intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment that creates powerful emotional bonds that are resistant to change.' That's what they use to brainwash people in secret services and in the army. Powerful stuff.

There is no proof whatsover that people involved in an abusive rs w a pwBPD are predisposed to specific characteristics or character traits. The 'counselling survivors of domestic abuse manual' says:

'while there are vulnerability factors that elevate the risk of domestic abuse such as previous history of victimisation, or traumatisation during childhood, these are not personality defects or disturbances. In essence such vulnerability factors reflect damaged self-structures which prevent survivors from identifying their needs. counsellors must ensure they do not pathologise survivors, or collude in victim blaming'

I find that presuming that most people here are some form of codependents (which is not even a real definition) and in turn inverted narcissists (a term that NPD Sam Vaknin made up - that's where he drew the line and that's how he sees the world in his narciccistic mind - see my earlier comment above about drawing lines). For all these reasons I find such assumptions and generalisations neither accurate nor helpful.

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« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2014, 06:03:08 PM »

Bauie - There are risk factors and more elevated probabilities for some than for others to get caught in the FOG; however I don't think there is 'a certain type of person' . A certain type of person exists as much as the average person exists. We are all unique.

As I quoted below 'while there are vulnerability factors that elevate the risk of domestic abuse such as previous history of victimisation, or traumatisation during childhood' which can cause the lonely child issues that you explored and apply to you, these are not personality defects or disturbances.

Actually most people that I know may attest to some lonely child issues incl. myself. Most people have felt lonely to an extent in childhood and if one had a smooth transition to adulthood loneliness can transform to solitude i.e. one being able to appreciate one's own being in this world.

At any rate, these are all human issues that can be exacerbated by trauma, genetic predisposition and even bad luck/timing. What I am against here is rushing into diagnosis, pathologising survivors, or engaging in victim blaming'.

I hope this makes sense.
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« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2014, 06:04:24 PM »

Excerpt
I do think that a certain type of person falls for the BPD idealisation stage. The one where they tell us that we are the ones that "get us" that we are their true love that they have been waiting for and talk about marriage and kids in the first 2 weeks, A person with stronger boundaries would say "whoa, wait a minute, we've only known each other for 2 weeks" but most of us here fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Therapy has shown me that I had some deep lonely child issues and my inner child had, in effect, been waiting for someone to sweep me off my feet.

Reasons why we become involved with borderlines could be because of emotional crises in life, divorce or mid-life crisis and doesn't unconditionally mean that FOO is an equation in said r/s attachment with a PD.  

My reasons were FOO. My obsession was the lack of closure, shock from how the r/s ended, we were together for many years and a family was established. The rug was pulled from underneath. I wanted answers and I wanted my voice to be heard. It was trauma, this was a life event.
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« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2014, 06:11:51 PM »

There are BPDs who don't rage.  Read about them!  It will so help you.  They are terrified of disappointing others so they basically do what you are insinuating here…raging inward.  It's "acting out" verus "acting in" - go ahead, read.  You are so not alone!  We all obsess to heal.  It's kinda what our "Non" brains need to do.  It will lessen.  You are on your way.  Stay strong. 


Am I the only one who is obsessed? How do I get this person out if my head? I play her over and over in my head. What did I do wrong? Why would she just cut me off like that? I shouldn't have said this. I shouldn't have said that. She hates me now. Will she ever speak to me again? Will I ever get past this? What if I don't?... .on and on and on. She is on my mind 24 / 7 and it is making others who are patiently listening just crazy. I'm making myself crazy trying to understand the pathology. I'm comparing all of your stories, and they just don't quite match. Mine didn't rage. Not outwardly. Ahhhh. Someone just turn my head off! What the heck?

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« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2014, 01:02:35 PM »

Hey Hope0807

Where would I read about BPDs who don't rage.  Is there stuff on the Boards?  I'm very new to this site still.

Thanks.

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« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2014, 02:10:03 PM »

There are BPDs who don't rage.  Read about them!  It will so help you.  They are terrified of disappointing others so they basically do what you are insinuating here…raging inward.

Or they will not rage keep it inside and pay you back with passive aggresiveness. Mine didn't rage often (only a few times) but she would employ covert punishing behaviours to push my buttons, cancel arrangements with friends, play mindgames, subtle provocations, jealousy/flirting with others etc.
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« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2014, 02:33:27 PM »

Your mind will process what you have been through over and over until it repairs itself.  I processed for many months and after a year still have moments of processing.  I have about as much clarity as I will ever have now and I am mostly at peace with things.  I still have moments of obsession/processing usually brought on by triggers or dreams.  It almost feels now like it was all a big puzzle and the remaining pieces are falling into place.  I tried to fight it when I was early in the process of recovery but then decided to let it all play out for the most part.  You do have to eventually take back your life and perform your daily duties so you cannot let it totally consume you.  It all gets better Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2014, 06:35:20 PM »

Obsession is risen out of attachment and desire from within the human self. The only way to cause it to collapse is by taking the foundation away. The foundation is ignorance of reality. Meditation on love and compassion will destroy the foundation of ignorance.
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« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2014, 06:58:43 PM »

Pet. Read up on BPD waif, or acting in borderline.
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« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2014, 08:25:17 PM »

Non raging BPDs are called "Quiet, Acting-In" Borderlines. 

Hey Hope0807

Where would I read about BPDs who don't rage.  Is there stuff on the Boards?  I'm very new to this site still.

Thanks.

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We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



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