Revelations from an overheard telephone convo

[Cat21]

My uBPDh is having a phone conversation (right now) with a good friend about the fact that he's constantly paranoid about what other thinks of him. His friend (also a co-worker) recently gave him a book about learning how to not be so fearful in the face of difficult times. I find it so interesting that whenever I try to talk to my husband about his fears and paranoia (mind you, he brings it up), I validate and use SET to try and help him "see the light", so to speak, and he basically ignores me and shuts me down. Yet, on the phone with his friend, he's open to listening and freely admits that he needs to make some changes. Just yesterday, he was expressing his fear and anxiety over a big upcoming event (for his job), and I listened, validated like nobody's business (most of it was completely understandable as I've felt that way myself), yet when it came time for the Truth, he walked away from me and admitted he was no longer paying attention to what I had to say. Then he said, "You and I are very similar; whenever you want to complain about something, you always tell me not to jump in and give you advice, but just to listen and let you vent. But you're not capable of doing that either." I said, "No, we are not similar in that way. I listened to every word you said, agreed with a lot of what you said and validated your feelings, and offered you a kernel of truth. You never do that for me." He quickly changed the subject.

It used to really bother me when he heeded advice from others yet completely ignored mine, but now I'm trying to look at it like "Hey- at least he's AWARE. That's a good thing." Now my question, how can I encourage him to have the same open dialogue with me as he does with his friend? In other words, will the T part of SET EVER be received?

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[wilsonian]

I know where you are coming from Cat21... .it use to really drive me nuts and to be honest hurt my feeling when my dBPDw would do that to me... I would do my best to coach... advise or just plain be there for her and she would always turn to someone else for there thoughts and answers or worse the internet(because we all know only truth is on the net )... .but lately I just do as I always do knowing to myself I did all I could do or say and just leave it at that... it all kind of goes along with my new way I am training myself to look at the relationship... .I am the only one who can control my reactions to my emotions so no reason to beat myself up anymore or be hurt because she does it... .

[ziniztar]

It used to really bother me when he heeded advice from others yet completely ignored mine, but now I'm trying to look at it like "Hey- at least he's AWARE. That's a good thing."

that's the way forward.

Now my question, how can I encourage him to have the same open dialogue with me as he does with his friend? In other words, will the T part of SET EVER be received?

There is a good option his friend from work is only doing S.E. The T in S.E.T. is advised not to used that often, if you really don't have to then it's probably best to leave it out. Use it when you need to communicate the truth, but keep the truth to a minimum. People in general don't like to faced with the truth no matter what type of (normal  ) personality they have. Keep validating. Try not to be invested in changing him. People only change because they've experienced or seen the light themselves, not because someone else told them. Otherwise therapy sessions would be the same as college classes and everyone would be done in 3 sessions.

Does that help?

[enlighten me]

It used to really bother me when he heeded advice from others yet completely ignored mine, but now I'm trying to look at it like "Hey- at least he's AWARE. That's a good thing." Now my question, how can I encourage him to have the same open dialogue with me as he does with his friend? In other words, will the T part of SET EVER be received?

Both my exs would ignore my advice but when someone else said it it was brilliant. I don't know if this has anything to do with BPD or its just what some people do.

[ziniztar]

Both my exs would ignore my advice but when someone else said it it was brilliant. I don't know if this has anything to do with BPD or its just what some people do.

If your pwBPD is in a push cycle he will dismiss anything you say, whether it's good or bad advice. For pwBPD (not in therapy) it's not about the truth. It's about their connection to that specific person. If it's a pull or idealization phase you're right. If it's a push cycle you're always wrong. It's a simple as that.

[123Phoebe]

Now my question, how can I encourage him to have the same open dialogue with me as he does with his friend? In other words, will the T part of SET EVER be received?

I take the T to mean 'my truth', not his truth or what I think would behoove him.  My truth is how I feel about things, my perspective, not what I think he should do.  Maybe that's what you're saying?

So your truth would be that he takes other's advice as brilliant, while yours (the same advice) feels ignored?

This has happened to me so many times, it makes me laugh now.  Like he'll look at me sideways, for another angle I might be coming from.  Which IS paranoia

This is one of those things I don't validate or even try to.  I'll usually give him my own look of paranoia and make a joke of it.  I don't validate the invalid and that pretty much is.

To me, some things aren't worth getting upset about.  I just keep being myself with my brilliant advice, even when it's not

[enlighten me]

Having thought about this I think it all comes down to trust.

For whatever reason our BPDs didn't trust us. Whether it was because they where scared that we would see under the mask and felt that they had to not trust us because they where constantly on guard against us. Or whether they felt we where just untrustworthy.

Therefore any opinion or advice we gave would not be trusted. It is only when a third party gives the same advice that the BPD thinks that its trustworthy advice.

[Moselle]

Both my exs would ignore my advice but when someone else said it it was brilliant. I don't know if this has anything to do with BPD or its just what some people do.

Yep, BPD. Mine does that too. I think it's part of the blaket invalidation bombing

[Cat21]

These are some great points. I think it's a trust issue, too. As far as the "Truth" in this particular situation, it's an obvious one, but one that he can't seem to grasp: and that is, self-sabotage (thinking the worst of a situation, assuming others hate you, predicting failure) will not yield the same results as thinking positively will. My H has told me many times that he always has to think negatively, so that he is pleasantly surprised if he does well. It's so sad. Until this event is over, I know it's going to be touch and go- some days good, other days, anxiety-ridden. Good thing I'm busy!

Sidenote- whenever H is stressed/anxious because of work (as in this situation), he is WAY more critical of me than usual. Nag central. Last night, after I got home from a party, everything I said had to be disproved or argued about. I finally had enough, told him I was tired, and got ready for bed, but before turning in, I decided to take my chances with SET (including T) one more time. I said to him, "I understand that you're feeling anxious and nervous about this upcoming event. I know how that feels and it must be hard to not know what to expect. When you are going through a stressful time at work, you become much more critical of me at home. Have you ever noticed that?" He said, "Well, that might be true, but me telling you to remember to wash the dishes before you put them into the dishwasher has nothing to do with stress." I said, "OK". (Then why did we spend 15 minutes talking about that?) I said, "I'm glad you're aware of that. Maybe we could find a different way to channel that stress." And I went into the bedroom and went to sleep.

[Moselle]

I finally had enough, told him I was tired, and got ready for bed, but before turning in, I decided to take my chances with SET (including T) one more time. I said to him, "I understand that you're feeling anxious and nervous about this upcoming event. I know how that feels and it must be hard to not know what to expect. When you are going through a stressful time at work, you become much more critical of me at home. Have you ever noticed that?" He said, "Well, that might be true, but me telling you to remember to wash the dishes before you put them into the dishwasher has nothing to do with stress." I said, "OK". (Then why did we spend 15 minutes talking about that?) I said, "I'm glad you're aware of that. Maybe we could find a different way to channel that stress." And I went into the bedroom and went to sleep.

Cat, well done for following through on the action. I think that is the key. Own the action. I guess you are a lot more patient with the SE than I am, or maybe I've gotten to the end of my tether with this kind of stuff. I've learned, certainly with my uBPDw, that she just needs to be told straight out.

I say in a calm voice: "What you're doing is making me angry/sad/invalidated, I don't want to be angry/sad/invalidated, so stop doing it, or I'm going to bed."  Most times It's just forgotten, but I feel good that I've asserted myself

If my emotions are out of control. I say I'm just stepping outside to get myself under control. When I have done that, I come in and do the above.

I've found that the more blunt I am, the more she respects what I'm saying. She knows my boundaries and sometimes tests them to find out where she stands. The firmer the boundary, I think the safer she feels.

I feel if I get in to a conversation about it, she's worked SET out and it gives her a chance to invalidate me, and I've come to the end of my tolerance for that too. LOL

[Cat21]

I've found that the more blunt I am, the more she respects what I'm saying. She knows my boundaries and sometimes tests them to find out where she stands. The firmer the boundary, I think the safer she feels.

Avyeron- I hear that! I do that, too. In fact, SET does not come easily for me (nor for many of us, I assume), so I use it when I can. Sometimes my H seems to respond better to my firmness as well; it all depends on his mood! (Doesn't everything?)

The task that has been looming over my head for a while now is talking to my H about seeing a T together. I finally have the courage to say what I need to say, so today might be the day!

[Moselle]

It all depends on his mood! (Doesn't everything?)

No not really  

I've spent 14 years depending on her mood. Give me one good reason why it does?

[Cat21]

What I meant was, the general atmosphere in our house is largely dependent on his mood. Now, whether or not I allow myself to be affected my it is my choice... .and one that I still fight! 

[formflier]

 

Cat,

One thing that you may... and this is a big may... .want to bring up is that a marriage is "supposed to be" the primary relationship for both of you guys.

So... .first place to go for advice and things like that... .should be each other.

If others are constantly being chosen and listened to over the wife or husband... .that's odd for a "normal" marriage.

Now... .since we have pwBPD traits in the relationships... .that pretty much takes the normal out of it. 

But... .it may be a way to  open the conversation.  Try to make sure it is non-judgmental... .truely inquisitive... .be aware emotions may come out that need to be validated.

IF you ever try to bring this up... .probably should be a good mood time.

Thoughts?

[ziniztar]

One thing that you may... and this is a big may... .want to bring up is that a marriage is "supposed to be" the primary relationship for both of you guys.

So... .first place to go for advice and things like that... .should be each other.

Is that so? I beg to differ. I think you should build a marriage according to your individual and shared relational values. I don't always go to my bf for advice. Sometimes I'd rather call dad, mom, a good friend... Depends on the issue. If he would demand me to always ask him first I would feel forced into it. Would probably ask him advice on tampons the next time I am having my period  .

[Moselle]

Must agree with ziniztar on this. Having made some mistakes, I've learned to consciously give the person the trustworthiness test. ie Is this person competent, reliable and honest, in the thing which I am asking?

If my spouse is none of this, why would I ask her about it?

[formflier]

One thing that you may... and this is a big may... .want to bring up is that a marriage is "supposed to be" the primary relationship for both of you guys.

So... .first place to go for advice and things like that... .should be each other.

Is that so? I beg to differ. I think you should build a marriage according to your individual and shared relational values. I don't always go to my bf for advice. Sometimes I'd rather call dad, mom, a good friend... Depends on the issue. If he would demand me to always ask him first I would feel forced into it. Would probably ask him advice on tampons the next time I am having my period  .

Sure... .many marriages are set up different ways.

I suppose I should rephrase.  In Cat21s case... .it seems to be curious to her why a husband would go to someone else for advice and avoid her.  (I know I'm shortening the story there)

Anyway... .just suggesting a possible way to open a conversation on why discuss something with others and avoid discussing with a spouse.

Especially for an "emotional" matter.

[Cat21]

Funnily enough, my H told me last night that he talked to another friend about his anxiety/stress surrounding this upcoming event, and this other friend gave him the same advice as I did. My H said, "So, two friends and you (my wife) have all told me the same thing. I'm starting to believe that things could be a lot worse, since 3 different people have all told me the same thing, and I think that will help my confidence." It seems he's looking for validation from multiple sources.

[waverider]

Being completely open with you is unreversable and hence leaves him vulnerable. A friend/colleague can be discarded along with the 'confession' and subsequent advice, it leaves them less vulnerable. They also have more control of the version an outsider hears. You on the other hand have a greater "back stage view" again making him more vulnerable.

Agreeing with an outsider is less of a commitment, they can go back on it easier without consequence.

[Moselle]

Funnily enough, my H told me last night that he talked to another friend about his anxiety/s

It seems he's looking for validation from multiple sources.

I know I've felt hurt before when mine goes elsewhere and asks the same stuff as if she doesn't trust me.

I think you've got it spot on. They are looking for validation from multipe sources. It's their BPD logic.

Mine asked me recently which of two logos I thought was the best for her new business. I said the second one with cursive writing, she argued with me saying she liked the first one with block letters, so I said, "that's fine, my opinion is that the second one is best, you do what you want with that."

So she posted them on facebook. 32 people like the cursive one, 2 like the block one.

Was this just all about validation? She was uncertain about which to use, and just needed validation. Should I have said "which one do you like? And then validated her choice?

[ziniztar]

I'd like to turn this one around.

Why are we so focused with our pwPBD accepting our advice? Do we feel invalidated if they don't take it? Why is that? Would you always feel invalidated if a friend didn't take your advice?

Do we need them to need us and only us? Are we the only ones entitled to the rescuer role? Why is that? Because if we don't have that role, we will be abandoned?

Just a few thoughts 

[Moselle]

Do we need them to need us and only us? Are we the only ones entitled to the rescuer role? Why is that? Because if we don't have that role, we will be abandoned?

Just a few thoughts 

I like your few thoughts

In short, Yes, I think we need to be needed, or at least want to be needed.

However,

"When you aren't caretaking another person's life, you are free to be who you really are, to reach out toward your potential, and to make a genuine contribution to your own life and to the life of others."

(ref p174 Stop caretaking the BPD/NPD)

So is this our challenge?, to feel comfortable with them asking advice of anyone they choose, us, a combination of us and others, or others exclusively.

Especially about emotional issues. The sooner they seek others out, the sooner they develop accountability for their own emotional problems. And isn't that what we want?

I do have boundaries about discussing our relationship with others though.

[enlighten me]

I dont think it is because we need them to listen to us and validate us. I think its more to do with how they make us feel. By ignoring us and only listening to others it demeans us. It made me feel as if I wasn't worth hearing. As if I was just part of the furniture and not a person.

It doesn't matter if its your partner, a work college or your boss. If your advice is ignored and only taken up when someone else has said it, it makes you feel non existant.

[ziniztar]

I do have boundaries about discussing our relationship with others though.

I'm accepting that talking to each other about our relationship issues is fairly impossible for now, as that would require honesty, vulnerability and therefor creates intimacy. And what do pwBPD fear the most? ... Yes. I do add that it is not something I don't want to work towards... but it's not something I can expect from him now.

I dont think it is because we need them to listen to us and validate us. I think its more to do with how they make us feel. By ignoring us and only listening to others it demeans us. It made me feel as if I wasn't worth hearing. As if I was just part of the furniture and not a person.

It doesn't matter if its your partner, a work college or your boss. If your advice is ignored and only taken up when someone else has said it, it makes you feel non existant.

Hey enlighten me, I totally get your point. It does make you feel non existant.

My question is: It? Who is it? If you would not need someone else to take up on your advice, and you would accept yourself, no one else could make you feel non existant. You - and with you many many other people - make yourself feel non existant.

I have a friend who is the total opposite from me. We would have never become friends if we wouldn't have shared a house. I have learnt a lot from her - and really she is struggeling with the fact that she is so careless and thoughtless towards others. But whenever I ask her advice, I listen to what she has to say. And then I might chose the other option.

"Mm which dress do like more? Red or green?"

She: "I think the green one."

Me, thinking about wearing the green one. "Mnaaah I'm going with the red one."

What I like about her is that she does not take this personally. She's fine with whatever I choose, it's the process that she has helped me with. I am the one wearing the dress, she is not. I am the one to feel comfortable in that dress all night long. If I don't choose what I want, I would let my decision and well being depend on her (negative) emotion to my choice, and my fear of losing her as a friend.

[enlighten me]

Hi Ziniztar

I get where your coming from and agree that our advice doesn't need to be followed. Its when its not even considered that is upsetting.

I disagree though on your point that no-one can make you feel non existant. They certainly can and both my uBPD exs made me feel as if I didn't exist at one point or another.

Its how much it bothers you that you have control over.

[waverider]

I'd like to turn this one around.

Why are we so focused with our pwPBD accepting our advice? Do we feel invalidated if they don't take it? Why is that? Would you always feel invalidated if a friend didn't take your advice?

Do we need them to need us and only us? Are we the only ones entitled to the rescuer role? Why is that? Because if we don't have that role, we will be abandoned?

Just a few thoughts 

Partly this but also we believe we should be respected and rewarded for "all the hard work we put in" compared to an outsider who hasn't. It is unhealthy, but natural thinking.

I also believe pwBPD do shop around for opinions that most align to their own (with a bit of cut and pasting), and appear to agree with others as they are more at ease being in open conflict with us than others.