Is there a "me" or an "us" in this marriage?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Yesterday, I helped my brother in law at his business.  There was a local college football game and I helped him out at a stand selling items for the game.  The fans were a lot of fun.  Most had a few beers and there was a lot of excitement and fun in the air.

What I couldn't help but notice were the couples.  Men and women holding hands, drinking beers, laughing and having fun.

Some of the men would say something really sexually dirty or just plain silly in front of their wives and the women just laughed.  It was like the women allowed their men to be men.  It was almost like they were proud of them and their silliness and humor.

It made me feel good to see this.

Then, I thought of my marriage.  No holding of hands.  No joking or fun, unless it is my wife making jokes at my expense.

If I were to say something sexual or funny in front of my wife I would be berated about it later.  So, I usually say nothing at all.  I once told her this and she just replied, "good."

I realized that I really am not permitted to be myself.  She doesn't want me to have fun.  Why?

She doesn't want us to have fun together.

I always loved going to the football games.  We would tailgate together and she basically would hang out with her friends.  When I would ask her to go into the game with me, the answer was always "no."

She knew I really wanted her to go up.

I see these other couples and I am glad for them.  I know they probably have their problems, but they also seem to have a closeness with each other.

Which brings me to another point.  It seems like our marriage has always been about her and what she wants.  It has never been about me, it has never been about "us."  It is about what I can give to her or what I can do for her.

The longer I stay the less I think that I can stay.  I am not saying that I want to be with someone else.  I have recognized the stifling effect that my marriage has had on me.

I have recognized my role in this.  I am setting better boundaries.

The effort is all by me though.  I don't know if I can keep carrying this load.

[workinprogress]

Yesterday, I helped my brother in law at his business.  There was a local college football game and I helped him out at a stand selling items for the game.  The fans were a lot of fun.  Most had a few beers and there was a lot of excitement and fun in the air.

What I couldn't help but notice were the couples.  Men and women holding hands, drinking beers, laughing and having fun.

Some of the men would say something really sexually dirty or just plain silly in front of their wives and the women just laughed.  It was like the women allowed their men to be men.  It was almost like they were proud of them and their silliness and humor.

It made me feel good to see this.

Then, I thought of my marriage.  No holding of hands.  No joking or fun, unless it is my wife making jokes at my expense.

If I were to say something sexual or funny in front of my wife I would be berated about it later.  So, I usually say nothing at all.  I once told her this and she just replied, "good."

I realized that I really am not permitted to be myself.  She doesn't want me to have fun.  Why?

She doesn't want us to have fun together.

I always loved going to the football games.  We would tailgate together and she basically would hang out with her friends.  When I would ask her to go into the game with me, the answer was always "no."

She knew I really wanted her to go up.

I see these other couples and I am glad for them.  I know they probably have their problems, but they also seem to have a closeness with each other.

Which brings me to another point.  It seems like our marriage has always been about her and what she wants.  It has never been about me, it has never been about "us."  It is about what I can give to her or what I can do for her.

The longer I stay the less I think that I can stay.  I am not saying that I want to be with someone else.  I have recognized the stifling effect that my marriage has had on me.

I have recognized my role in this.  I am setting better boundaries.

The effort is all by me though.  I don't know if I can keep carrying this load.

[allibaba]

Then, I thought of my marriage.  No holding of hands.  No joking or fun, unless it is my wife making jokes at my expense.

If I were to say something sexual or funny in front of my wife I would be berated about it later.  So, I usually say nothing at all.  I once told her this and she just replied, "good."

I realized that I really am not permitted to be myself.  She doesn't want me to have fun.  Why?

They are in so much pain inside that they don't want anyone else to be happy.  At the risk of sounding really nutty crunchy - allow yourself to be SAD.  Its very, very very sad - a very hard thing to process too.

Which brings me to another point.  It seems like our marriage has always been about her and what she wants.  It has never been about me, it has never been about "us."  It is about what I can give to her or what I can do for her.

I can relate very much.  My husband was abusive (in every way) and I was allowing him to suck me dry.  He meant well but he just wasn't capable of being about more than "him."  He still isn't (we managed a miraculously amicable split about 9 months ago),  I sadly watch on the sidelines while he can't even manage time with his little boy - its always about him, how he feels, what he is doing, what he wants, what he needs

The longer I stay the less I think that I can stay.  I am not saying that I want to be with someone else.  I have recognized the stifling effect that my marriage has had on me.

I have recognized my role in this.  I am setting better boundaries.

The effort is all by me though.  I don't know if I can keep carrying this load.

I applaud you for setting better boundaries. 

My experience here is that once you start this process, one of two things will happen... .either your wife will buck up and get healthier or you will get healthy enough that the relationship isn't good enough for you any more. 

It takes a great deal of strength to work on yourself while in the relationship (on these boards we see a lot of - should I stay or should I go discussions, the key to me was satisfying myself that I had done everything that I could to get healthy while IN the relationship).

I am one tough cookie so it was really hard for me to slow down long enough and allow myself to be SAD about my marriage.  Its ok to feel that way.  We did deserve better.  The good news is that once you start to work on yourself - you will get something better (one way or the other).

[workinprogress]

Then, I thought of my marriage.  No holding of hands.  No joking or fun, unless it is my wife making jokes at my expense.

If I were to say something sexual or funny in front of my wife I would be berated about it later.  So, I usually say nothing at all.  I once told her this and she just replied, "good."

I realized that I really am not permitted to be myself.  She doesn't want me to have fun.  Why?

They are in so much pain inside that they don't want anyone else to be happy.  At the risk of sounding really nutty crunchy - allow yourself to be SAD.  Its very, very very sad - a very hard thing to process too.

Which brings me to another point.  It seems like our marriage has always been about her and what she wants.  It has never been about me, it has never been about "us."  It is about what I can give to her or what I can do for her.

I can relate very much.  My husband was abusive (in every way) and I was allowing him to suck me dry.  He meant well but he just wasn't capable of being about more than "him."  He still isn't (we managed a miraculously amicable split about 9 months ago),  I sadly watch on the sidelines while he can't even manage time with his little boy - its always about him, how he feels, what he is doing, what he wants, what he needs

The longer I stay the less I think that I can stay.  I am not saying that I want to be with someone else.  I have recognized the stifling effect that my marriage has had on me.

I have recognized my role in this.  I am setting better boundaries.

The effort is all by me though.  I don't know if I can keep carrying this load.

I applaud you for setting better boundaries. 

My experience here is that once you start this process, one of two things will happen... .either your wife will buck up and get healthier or you will get healthy enough that the relationship isn't good enough for you any more. 

It takes a great deal of strength to work on yourself while in the relationship (on these boards we see a lot of - should I stay or should I go discussions, the key to me was satisfying myself that I had done everything that I could to get healthy while IN the relationship).

I am one tough cookie so it was really hard for me to slow down long enough and allow myself to be SAD about my marriage.  Its ok to feel that way.  We did deserve better.  The good news is that once you start to work on yourself - you will get something better (one way or the other).

Thanks for your reply, Allibaba.  I'm glad to see that you are doing better!

As for being sad, I've really allowed myself to be sad for the first time in my life.  I had always tried to be optimistic and keep my negative feelings buried.  Now, I realize just how sad I've been my whole life.

I think I always kept so busy that I haven't allowed myself to be sad until the last few years.

It's been eye-opening.

I've noticed since I've been getting healthier my wife becomes more and more distant.  She is like a stranger now.  She never shares just trivial little information with me.  She shares nothing with me.

I do realize now also, that earlier in the marriage she just shared what she wanted to share, yet always accused me of withholding from her, so, I guess I was always defensive with everything.

If I shared something with her she would get mad.  If I didn't share something with her, she would get mad.

We will see what happens.

[allibaba]

  As for being sad, I've really allowed myself to be sad for the first time in my life.  I had always tried to be optimistic and keep my negative feelings buried.  Now, I realize just how sad I've been my whole life.

I think I always kept so busy that I haven't allowed myself to be sad until the last few years.

It's been eye-opening.

This is good!  I mean obviously being sad isn't good, but acknowledging where you are at - with honesty - is BIG.  I didn't manage to get this to this point until recently. 

After my husband left I went through a period of euphoria (I was just so happy to be out from under the weight of being married to him - that is not to say that I don't love him... .I do from the bottom of my heart).  So 6 months of silly happy (well sort of) and am only now starting into dealing with some of my core issues.

I have been seeing a therapist for myself she was the one who pointed out to me that my 'optimism and gratitude' mode is a defense mechanism so that I can avoid the hurt inside.  HUH.  Sounds like you got to that stage a lot sooner in your journey.  That takes a lot of self awareness.   

I wish you the best of luck in finding your path!

Allibaba

[workinprogress]

  As for being sad, I've really allowed myself to be sad for the first time in my life.  I had always tried to be optimistic and keep my negative feelings buried.  Now, I realize just how sad I've been my whole life.

I think I always kept so busy that I haven't allowed myself to be sad until the last few years.

It's been eye-opening.

This is good!  I mean obviously being sad isn't good, but acknowledging where you are at - with honesty - is BIG.  I didn't manage to get this to this point until recently. 

After my husband left I went through a period of euphoria (I was just so happy to be out from under the weight of being married to him - that is not to say that I don't love him... .I do from the bottom of my heart).  So 6 months of silly happy (well sort of) and am only now starting into dealing with some of my core issues.

I have been seeing a therapist for myself she was the one who pointed out to me that my 'optimism and gratitude' mode is a defense mechanism so that I can avoid the hurt inside.  HUH.  Sounds like you got to that stage a lot sooner in your journey.  That takes a lot of self awareness.   

I wish you the best of luck in finding your path!

Allibaba

GRATITUDE!  That was the big one that I really deluded myself with.

I was grateful, even though I was working myself to death and living the celibate life of a priest.  Meanwhile, my wife was out "jokingly" offering other guys sexual favors.

[allibaba]

As you begin to peel the layers of the onion back - you will add more and more things to the denial list.  My 'denial list' is the list of 'delusions that I spun for myself.'  I think I did this to hold onto my sanity (in the absence of better tools)... .(ha!  pretty sure that is the definition of 'defense mechanism'

Suspect that your list will grow as your head comes out of the FOG (mine grows and grows).  Without setting boundaries, you wouldn't have gotten to this point.   

[JohnLove]

I've noticed since I've been getting healthier my wife becomes more and more distant.  She is like a stranger now.  She never shares just trivial little information with me.  She shares nothing with me.

I do realize now also, that earlier in the marriage she just shared what she wanted to share, yet always accused me of withholding from her, so, I guess I was always defensive with everything.

If I shared something with her she would get mad.  If I didn't share something with her, she would get mad.

We will see what happens.

This is HUGE for me. My BPDgf does this... .we are supposed to be in an intimate relationship. She is supposed to SHARE her life with me. But no... .just tells me what she wants me to know or nothing at all... .or actively hides the truth. As you said even the trivial things... .but what the hell about the important stuff?. This has caused arguments before I became aware of her diagnosis. It is very hurtful behaviour no matter what the reason. It's withholding!. I appreciate your raw honesty. It seems with all the games people play we can really never be honest enough.

Your comment about your wife "jokingly" offering other guys sexual favours hit a raw nerve with me. You do not give me the impression she is that way with you. That is just not on in my value system.

I have had a bad experience that relates to this. My BPDgf told me she wasn't serious when engaging in sexual talk with another male relative (This is one of the things she kept hidden). That she didn't appreciate the other person was serious. So why did it go on for years?... .throughout our honeymoon phase?. That she didn't see it as anything but banter. His sext messages were SO in your face it wasn't funny. That's almost all they communicated about despite him being a (much younger) relative. That is not family. That is incestuous.  

I am sad for what you have endured workinprogress but I am confident this may just be an enormous turning point in your life. Your life is really about YOU.

[mstnghu]

Yesterday, I helped my brother in law at his business.  There was a local college football game and I helped him out at a stand selling items for the game.  The fans were a lot of fun.  Most had a few beers and there was a lot of excitement and fun in the air.

What I couldn't help but notice were the couples.  Men and women holding hands, drinking beers, laughing and having fun.

Some of the men would say something really sexually dirty or just plain silly in front of their wives and the women just laughed.  It was like the women allowed their men to be men.  It was almost like they were proud of them and their silliness and humor.

It made me feel good to see this.

Then, I thought of my marriage.  No holding of hands.  No joking or fun, unless it is my wife making jokes at my expense.

If I were to say something sexual or funny in front of my wife I would be berated about it later.  So, I usually say nothing at all.  I once told her this and she just replied, "good."

I realized that I really am not permitted to be myself.  She doesn't want me to have fun.  Why?

She doesn't want us to have fun together.

I always loved going to the football games.  We would tailgate together and she basically would hang out with her friends.  When I would ask her to go into the game with me, the answer was always "no."

She knew I really wanted her to go up.

I see these other couples and I am glad for them.  I know they probably have their problems, but they also seem to have a closeness with each other.

Which brings me to another point.  It seems like our marriage has always been about her and what she wants.  It has never been about me, it has never been about "us."  It is about what I can give to her or what I can do for her.

The longer I stay the less I think that I can stay.  I am not saying that I want to be with someone else.  I have recognized the stifling effect that my marriage has had on me.

I have recognized my role in this.  I am setting better boundaries.

The effort is all by me though.  I don't know if I can keep carrying this load.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I can relate to this! My wife is a complete prude when it comes to my humor. I come from a very conservative family background, but all of my close friends are very open-minded. My wife's family and friends are also very open-minded as well. For some reason though, my wife is constantly trying to shut me up around everybody and finds no humor in anything I say. I'm not allowed to be myself at all with her around. I can't tell you how many times I've said something funny around her family and they all laughed (not a courtesy laugh) and later my wife reprimanded me at home for how inappropriate I acted.

I also mentioned in one of my recent previous posts here about how my wife lectured me in the car on the way to a Memorial Day BBQ at one of her friend's houses. She wanted to make sure I wouldn't embarrass her.

I also realize that every couple has their issues. Most other couples also have their ability to connect to each other and have fun and be intimate also though. This is not something I can ever seem to achieve with my wife. I've told my wife on many occasions that there's a whole lot of bad behavior and overall b___iness I could tolerate from her if she'd at least just be nice and respectful toward me... .especially in public. I really don't ask a whole lot from her.

[workinprogress]

Yesterday, I helped my brother in law at his business.  There was a local college football game and I helped him out at a stand selling items for the game.  The fans were a lot of fun.  Most had a few beers and there was a lot of excitement and fun in the air.

What I couldn't help but notice were the couples.  Men and women holding hands, drinking beers, laughing and having fun.

Some of the men would say something really sexually dirty or just plain silly in front of their wives and the women just laughed.  It was like the women allowed their men to be men.  It was almost like they were proud of them and their silliness and humor.

It made me feel good to see this.

Then, I thought of my marriage.  No holding of hands.  No joking or fun, unless it is my wife making jokes at my expense.

If I were to say something sexual or funny in front of my wife I would be berated about it later.  So, I usually say nothing at all.  I once told her this and she just replied, "good."

I realized that I really am not permitted to be myself.  She doesn't want me to have fun.  Why?

She doesn't want us to have fun together.

I always loved going to the football games.  We would tailgate together and she basically would hang out with her friends.  When I would ask her to go into the game with me, the answer was always "no."

She knew I really wanted her to go up.

I see these other couples and I am glad for them.  I know they probably have their problems, but they also seem to have a closeness with each other.

Which brings me to another point.  It seems like our marriage has always been about her and what she wants.  It has never been about me, it has never been about "us."  It is about what I can give to her or what I can do for her.

The longer I stay the less I think that I can stay.  I am not saying that I want to be with someone else.  I have recognized the stifling effect that my marriage has had on me.

I have recognized my role in this.  I am setting better boundaries.

The effort is all by me though.  I don't know if I can keep carrying this load.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I can relate to this! My wife is a complete prude when it comes to my humor. I come from a very conservative family background, but all of my close friends are very open-minded. My wife's family and friends are also very open-minded as well. For some reason though, my wife is constantly trying to shut me up around everybody and finds no humor in anything I say. I'm not allowed to be myself at all with her around. I can't tell you how many times I've said something funny around her family and they all laughed (not a courtesy laugh) and later my wife reprimanded me at home for how inappropriate I acted.

I also mentioned in one of my recent previous posts here about how my wife lectured me in the car on the way to a Memorial Day BBQ at one of her friend's houses. She wanted to make sure I wouldn't embarrass her.

I also realize that every couple has their issues. Most other couples also have their ability to connect to each other and have fun and be intimate also though. This is not something I can ever seem to achieve with my wife. I've told my wife on many occasions that there's a whole lot of bad behavior and overall b___iness I could tolerate from her if she'd at least just be nice and respectful toward me... .especially in public. I really don't ask a whole lot from her.

Mstngu, you will love this story!  A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I went to a party to watch a football game.  Of course it was at her friends house.  Normally I don't drink.  On the way over my wife told me not to get drunk.

"Why?"  I asked.

"Because you get cuckoo when you drink."  She said it in a very demeaning manner.

As I stated I don't drink very often.  As for the cuckoo reference, I really think she was projecting.

Anyway, we get to the party and I have a beer.  Many of the guys were there overindulging and the hosts of the party offered me some shots.  I thought, "what the hell?"

So I did some shots.  I didn't get drunk, but I was feeling pleasant.

We stopped at her parents on the way back and she asked me not to say anything when we went in.

So I made it a point to talk my head off in there.  I don't think I shut up the entire time.  .  I had a ball.

[workinprogress]

I've noticed since I've been getting healthier my wife becomes more and more distant.  She is like a stranger now.  She never shares just trivial little information with me.  She shares nothing with me.

I do realize now also, that earlier in the marriage she just shared what she wanted to share, yet always accused me of withholding from her, so, I guess I was always defensive with everything.

If I shared something with her she would get mad.  If I didn't share something with her, she would get mad.

We will see what happens.

This is HUGE for me. My BPDgf does this... .we are supposed to be in an intimate relationship. She is supposed to SHARE her life with me. But no... .just tells me what she wants me to know or nothing at all... .or actively hides the truth. As you said even the trivial things... .but what the hell about the important stuff?. This has caused arguments before I became aware of her diagnosis. It is very hurtful behaviour no matter what the reason. It's withholding!. I appreciate your raw honesty. It seems with all the games people play we can really never be honest enough.

Your comment about your wife "jokingly" offering other guys sexual favours hit a raw nerve with me. You do not give me the impression she is that way with you. That is just not on in my value system.

I have had a bad experience that relates to this. My BPDgf told me she wasn't serious when engaging in sexual talk with another male relative (This is one of the things she kept hidden). That she didn't appreciate the other person was serious. So why did it go on for years?... .throughout our honeymoon phase?. That she didn't see it as anything but banter. His sext messages were SO in your face it wasn't funny. That's almost all they communicated about despite him being a (much younger) relative. That is not family. That is incestuous.  

I am sad for what you have endured workinprogress but I am confident this may just be an enormous turning point in your life. Your life is really about YOU.

Johnlove, these people have some very strange behaviors.  I can't believe she was sexting with her cousin!

As for my wife and I, she would get angry at me if I touched her or even mentioned sex.  Talk about walking on eggshells!

[mstnghu]

Yesterday, I helped my brother in law at his business.  There was a local college football game and I helped him out at a stand selling items for the game.  The fans were a lot of fun.  Most had a few beers and there was a lot of excitement and fun in the air.

What I couldn't help but notice were the couples.  Men and women holding hands, drinking beers, laughing and having fun.

Some of the men would say something really sexually dirty or just plain silly in front of their wives and the women just laughed.  It was like the women allowed their men to be men.  It was almost like they were proud of them and their silliness and humor.

It made me feel good to see this.

Then, I thought of my marriage.  No holding of hands.  No joking or fun, unless it is my wife making jokes at my expense.

If I were to say something sexual or funny in front of my wife I would be berated about it later.  So, I usually say nothing at all.  I once told her this and she just replied, "good."

I realized that I really am not permitted to be myself.  She doesn't want me to have fun.  Why?

She doesn't want us to have fun together.

I always loved going to the football games.  We would tailgate together and she basically would hang out with her friends.  When I would ask her to go into the game with me, the answer was always "no."

She knew I really wanted her to go up.

I see these other couples and I am glad for them.  I know they probably have their problems, but they also seem to have a closeness with each other.

Which brings me to another point.  It seems like our marriage has always been about her and what she wants.  It has never been about me, it has never been about "us."  It is about what I can give to her or what I can do for her.

The longer I stay the less I think that I can stay.  I am not saying that I want to be with someone else.  I have recognized the stifling effect that my marriage has had on me.

I have recognized my role in this.  I am setting better boundaries.

The effort is all by me though.  I don't know if I can keep carrying this load.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I can relate to this! My wife is a complete prude when it comes to my humor. I come from a very conservative family background, but all of my close friends are very open-minded. My wife's family and friends are also very open-minded as well. For some reason though, my wife is constantly trying to shut me up around everybody and finds no humor in anything I say. I'm not allowed to be myself at all with her around. I can't tell you how many times I've said something funny around her family and they all laughed (not a courtesy laugh) and later my wife reprimanded me at home for how inappropriate I acted.

I also mentioned in one of my recent previous posts here about how my wife lectured me in the car on the way to a Memorial Day BBQ at one of her friend's houses. She wanted to make sure I wouldn't embarrass her.

I also realize that every couple has their issues. Most other couples also have their ability to connect to each other and have fun and be intimate also though. This is not something I can ever seem to achieve with my wife. I've told my wife on many occasions that there's a whole lot of bad behavior and overall b___iness I could tolerate from her if she'd at least just be nice and respectful toward me... .especially in public. I really don't ask a whole lot from her.

Mstngu, you will love this story!  A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I went to a party to watch a football game.  Of course it was at her friends house.  Normally I don't drink.  On the way over my wife told me not to get drunk.

"Why?"  I asked.

"Because you get cuckoo when you drink."  She said it in a very demeaning manner.

As I stated I don't drink very often.  As for the cuckoo reference, I really think she was projecting.

Anyway, we get to the party and I have a beer.  Many of the guys were there overindulging and the hosts of the party offered me some shots.  I thought, "what the hell?"

So I did some shots.  I didn't get drunk, but I was feeling pleasant.

We stopped at her parents on the way back and she asked me not to say anything when we went in.

So I made it a point to talk my head off in there.  I don't think I shut up the entire time.  .  I had a ball.

Crazy, isn't it? My wife does the exact same thing. We can be at one of her family functions and all of her family members are drinking. They're not acting stupid or irresponsible but have definitely had quite a bit. I'll be on my first or second drink and she'll come up and tell me to "slow down" because a bunch of her family members are noticing how much I've had and they're worried about me. I seriously just look at her like a deer in headlights because it's so completely ridiculous.

[allibaba]

As for my wife and I, she would get angry at me if I touched her or even mentioned sex.  Talk about walking on eggshells!

I absolutely hate hearing this.  I am so so sorry!

[workinprogress]

As for my wife and I, she would get angry at me if I touched her or even mentioned sex.  Talk about walking on eggshells!

I absolutely hate hearing this.  I am so so sorry!

Thank you.  I could never figure it out.  We had sex all of the time, then one day it ended.

I look at her at times, and I think, years ago she would let me do whatever I wanted to her.  Now, I can't even remember what she looks like without clothes on.

When I say something to her about our sex life coming to an end, she says that I'm a "liar" and we fooled around all of the time.

How can I respond to that?

[allibaba]

As for my wife and I, she would get angry at me if I touched her or even mentioned sex.  Talk about walking on eggshells!

I absolutely hate hearing this.  I am so so sorry!

Thank you.  I could never figure it out.  We had sex all of the time, then one day it ended.

I look at her at times, and I think, years ago she would let me do whatever I wanted to her.  Now, I can't even remember what she looks like without clothes on.

When I say something to her about our sex life coming to an end, she says that I'm a "liar" and we fooled around all of the time.

How can I respond to that?

I don't have a lot of experience here... .though I know that a lot of people do!

(In my marriage - I stopped sex the day that I realized that our marriage was over - which was 3 days before I asked my husband to leave)

HOWEVER - Definitely avoid JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, and Explain) as would be perceived as invalidating and probably refer to some of the communication tools.  My fav was SET but I know others use DEARMAN.

Sorry am not more helpful... .am feeling a tad drained tonight so hopefully some of the more senior people can weigh in!

I am sure that you have thought about it before, but was there something that precipitated the sex ending?  A fight?  Some sort of other trigger?

[burnt out]

I have been thinking this very thing.  We aren't married, but every time he gets mad at me he picks some part of me to discard.  When you look at him, you can't tell there is a "we".  I have shared this with him to no avail as he apologizes, but says I just need to understand.  He agreed when I told him this relationship feels about him, and only him and not about "us" let alone "me" actually being a part of it.  How do you fix this? 

[Indyan]

we managed a miraculously amicable split about 9 months ago),  I sadly watch on the sidelines while he can't even manage time with his little boy - its always about him, how he feels, what he is doing, what he wants, what he needs

Guess what? It feels good to read this, really good. It gives me another picture of the future, other than a crazy man fighting for custody when in fact he can't handle a kid for very long - yes I know, the picture of the self-centered and sad daddy is a positive one for me  (In the country of the blind, the one-eyed main is a king).

You managed an amicable split?

How? Any magic formula?

[workinprogress]

Something else occurred to me today.  Anytime I wanted to go on a weekend away with my wife alone she always said "no."

There is a beautiful lake town near our house and I have often asked her to go to a resort with me.  She never would.

In our 22 years of marriage we have gone out of town together once, and that was with a group of her friends.

When we have vacationed together with the kids she never sleeps in the bed with me.  She either sleeps on the couch or with the kids.

It even happens when I ask her to go out to dinner.

It just never happens.  Even on our anniversary she would say that she didn't want to spend the money.

She would only go places if her "friends" invite her. 

[allibaba]

we managed a miraculously amicable split about 9 months ago),  I sadly watch on the sidelines while he can't even manage time with his little boy - its always about him, how he feels, what he is doing, what he wants, what he needs

Guess what? It feels good to read this, really good. It gives me another picture of the future, other than a crazy man fighting for custody when in fact he can't handle a kid for very long - yes I know, the picture of the self-centered and sad daddy is a positive one for me  (In the country of the blind, the one-eyed main is a king).

You managed an amicable split?

How? Any magic formula?

No magical formula. 

I don't want to hijack the thread, but thought I would quickly share... .

1.  I decided that my husband was NOT my enemy.  I stuck to the lessons throughout our divorce.  Empathy, sympathy and compassion (all with firm boundaries).

2.  I used a lot of reverse psychology with respect to custody.  I told my husband that he can have our son whenever he wants... .Instead of trying to limit his time with our son, I decided that kids need time with dad... .My husband never had to worry that I was going to cut him off.  I suffer my own issues (I am super flexible with him... .he is not the same with me... .sometimes its a pain for me)... .but its worth it   I have to emphasize that the reason I was ok with this is because my husband was not emotionally or physically abusive to our son.  My friends who know how my husband was toward me got really upset with me for this approach.  If my husband makes one false move with our son, I will take him to court and drag him through six levels of hell!  I am not a wallflower, but I only fight battles that need to be fought.

3.  Since I went through a process of establishing boundaries with my husband, I knew what authority my husband respected and what authority he didn't... .when he hit a psychotic break I never fought him... .I always called in an authority that he respected... .whether it be LAW ENFORCEMENT or a MINISTER.  When things got over my head, I turned it over to someone else.

Somehow our situation went from very scary, to surprisingly calm.  The formula won't work for everyone but it worked for us.

[Indyan]

Thanks Alibaba, it helps. This is also how I see things (if possible). That's why I want to be ready (just in case he decides to go for full C, or even shared C), but I don't want to be restrictive.

But it will all depend on the way he takes care of his son, if we separate for good.

[Indyan]

Also, I didn't know what "reverse psychology" was, interesting concept. I'm going to read about this.

Thanks again.

[workinprogress]

Also, I didn't know what "reverse psychology" was, interesting concept. I'm going to read about this.

Thanks again.

This is sad, but at one point in my marriage, the only way I could get my wife to do anything with me was to act like I didn't want to do it.

For example, if I wanted to go to a benefit dinner or something, I would say that I didn't want to go.  My wife would immediately want to do it.

If I didn't want to do something, I would act like I really wanted to do it, and she would decide that she didn't want to do it.

[Indyan]

I've thought of that quite a lot today and realized how right you are (and how stupid it is).

1- I proposed to my bf or s2bx (not sure where we are yet) to visit his baby son on Tue and Thu eve + Sat PM and Sund AM. He's always complaining that I don't let him see his son blah blah, so I thought I'd propose something first.

2- I asked if he could inform of his visit in advance.

3- I also told him that, since he's the one who kept mentionning separation, he should take his things (clothes, shoes in the hall). Especially that here in France, when we declare to social services that we're alone with kids, they might come and check (allowances given).

What did he do? The exact opposite.

He doesn't tell me in advance when he's coming. He's seeing his son very little. And he hasn't taken his stuff back.

I asked if he wanted to come on Fri eve to look after baby while I'd visit a friend. He refused.

He kept asking to keep baby a full day. If I proposed it, I'm almost sure he'd quickly have enough... .