emotionally abusive to kids - supervised visitation for that? or no?

[livednlearned]

OK, so today he sent me an email saying his parents aren't able to supervise this weekend.  However, he's already off supervision.  Doesn't he realize this? Maybe he can't emotionally handle the kids this weekend, so that's a signal.  Sounds ok to me in the short term.  However... .obviously he's having weird delusions.  I may just end up having to go back to court to ask for someone to monitor the situation.  I don't know what else to do.  What do you do if you are co-parenting with a mentally ill spouse but he hasn't technically made a threat or done anything?  

I try to figure this stuff out with my ex too. I think psychosis/delusional thinking adds a whole other level of head scratching.

The thing that really sucks with court is that they aren't in the business of making the other parent better. They're in the business trying to resolving disputes. It seems like court is more about reacting to things that have happened than preventing something from happening.

[david]

so today he sent an email saying his parents aren't able to supervise this weekend... .So agree with him and let him know when the next weekend is. Say something like  "Okay, the children can stay with me this weekend and you can see them on such and such date (the next date he is scheduled to see the kids) . "      If he does this on a regular basis you have a trail to show if you ever need to. Don't try to make sense of it.

[momtara]

He followed up with, "So do I have your permission to take them unsupervised this weekend?"

I have a few thoughts. 

I can say no, but obviously he will then ask why.

I can do what you suggested and say, ok skip this one and we can talk about the next one

I can ask him why he is asking me (which I prefer, so I can at least get a little more insight)

I can ask, "Are you asking because you need a little help?  I will say no this time and then we can talk about the future."

I can hold off and ask my lawyer to talk to his lawyer.  At this point, considering his behavior last time, I am concerned about him taking them this weekend - not because he may hurt them, but because maybe he was asked by his lawyer to ask this so he coudl set a legal precedent after he behaved how he did last week.

Problem is, if I engage lawyers, maybe he is only doing this whole thing to provoke me into more engagement?

But it seems that by trying to handle this myself, without lawyers or a parent coordiantor, I am in line for more trouble down the road.

I can just say  no in a coy way but then he may say I'm denying him parenting time.

OK, what would you guys do?  David and LnL, you are so helpful and I'm curious... .

I have a letter to my L ready to go (so costly!)

[momtara]

I do think we need a parent coordinator asap, and someone needs to talk to his psychiatrist to find out what's going on.  Only my L can accomplish that. 

[livednlearned]

How about, "I prefer that you not take care of the kids without supervision."

Just that.

Then ball's in his court.

[david]

lnl has a much better reply. Put the ball in his court and let him reply. It is minimal engagment and in these kinds of circumstances you are also setting a boundary and a precedent.

lnl's reply also is saying everything you are concerned about but in a less threatening manner so it has the potential to not be a trigger for him.

[Grey Kitty]

He followed up with, "So do I have your permission to take them unsupervised this weekend?"

I'd like to point out that from the legal situation you describe, you are not legally able to either grant or deny "permission" for his unsupervised access to your kids.

I think lnl's answer is a good one--it doesn't put you on record either way, and doesn't set any precedent like that to later deal with, and puts the ball in his court.

Remember--he is the one who decided to tell you that his parents couldn't supervise in the first place!

[momtara]

The kids are sick now, so he may not take them anyway, but that's great advice from the 3 of you.  Thank you.

So I am very stressed and anxiety filled today.  I feel like my exH is the type who would get depressed that he can't engage me, and he may hurt himself.  Or hurt the kids.  Or whatever.  I know I may just be imagining things or just scared because I love the kids and they are under 4 and I have a loss of control when they are at his place.  But he does scare me when he sends me things like ":)o you grant permission for me to have unsupervised visitation? My parents won't be there."  It's kind of weird.

I guess I should see my shrink... .but what if I'm worried with good reason?  I am kicking myself for letting him off the hook when I had him under supervised.  It wouldn't have lasted forever but I could have asked for a psych eval and more things while we had it.  I was worried it would trigger him worse and spend all our money for nothing, and not prove anything anyhow, but now that seems really dumb.

I asked my lawyer if she has advice but she hasn't gotten back to me.  It's only been three hours since I mailed her and she coudl be in court.  I don't know.  I feel ilke I want a long-term solution and there really aren't any.  I just am going to be nervous all my life.  

Is it a normal instinct to worry this much?  Seems like I find a few people on here who are scared when their kids are with their ex, but most seem not to be.  

[david]

When ex left in 2007 the boys were 4.5 and 8.5 years old. I was extremely concerned for their wellbeing. I weighed around 220. I went down to 170 in about 6 months. It was the most stressful time in my life.

I found a T, after several tries, that was a fit for me. I focused on the kids and tried to find ways to help them. I talked to the school counselors and told them my concerns for the kids.          Both boys are very different and I understood that and knew them fairly well. I adjusted my style to accomodate them even more. Ex views all kids as the same and doesn't go beyond what is in her head. That was and is a great advantage for me. When either boys feels he is being heard he responds in kind.

The boys are now 11.5 and 16. I still have concerns but I have learned to accpt things for what they are. I also think I did a good job of guiding them (raising them) for the last five years. We have a good relationship and they talk to me about anything that is on their mind. They are afraid to discuss things with their mom becasue of retaliation if they say the wrong thing.

I trust that our boys know what to do in case something terribly wrong happens at their moms.

Kicking yourself for a "mistake" you made in the past isn't going to change things or help you or the kids. Learn from it and continue learning. My favorite saying from this experience is , "that which does not destroy you makes you stronger." I'll be damned if I will let my ex's issues destroy me or our kids.

And yes I am still concerned when they are with her but I do have more trust that they will know what to do.

I went to back to school night last night for S11. Ex showed up and I maintained my distance. She sat in S11's desk and I sat in the back of the class. When she left I checked his desk out. He had a paper that his teacher had them all do. It was titled how well do you know your parents. One of the questions was, what is your mom and dads favorite thing to do. He wrote that dad likes to take a 30 minute rest after playing with him outside. I don't have the energy I used to have and he was spot on. He then said that mom likes to brag to everyone how great she is. He was spot on with that one to. I felt shocked at first that he wrote that. Then I realized he was being truthful. I felt bad for him but I also realized it is what it is. I now am wondering whether that is from anger or simple observation. He will have the paper today and I plan on talking to him. I figure we will start with the first answer and go through the entire page. I will be listening a lot and saying little. He was at his moms last night and I am sure she won't say anything to him. She can't have a conversation like that with anyone since a conversation like that would trigger her. She will probably just bury it somewhere in her head. The most I expect from her is that she will buy him something to make herself feel good.

[momtara]

That's odd; sounds like you have a perceptive kid!

Sometimes I think it's different when dealing with women than with men, but I can see having the same fears.  Women seem as likely to harm their kids (emotionally, physically, whatever) as men do.

I keep going back and forth over whether to do all kinds of court stuff (psych eval, etc.) or if I'm just trying to assuage my anxieties.  I don't quite know the answer.

[livednlearned]

Is it a normal instinct to worry this much?  Seems like I find a few people on here who are scared when their kids are with their ex, but most seem not to be.  

I think it's normal, momtara. Nothing has made me more anxious than when someone or something thwarts my maternal instincts to protect my son. Your instincts are likely to be stronger because your kids are more defenseless, dependent, and vulnerable. Also, your ex experiences psychosis in what seems to be a fairly persistent way. Same with mine. They are not just responding to feelings as facts, which is a hallmark of BPD. They are not passing the reality test. So your fears are founded, imo.

But it's also important to recognize the damage that anxiety and stress and worry do to us, and to try and contain it as much as possible. Otherwise we pass this kind of coping to our kids, and if our goal is to protect our kids and raise healthy children, then it's on us to swing for the fences and try to go for the healthiest goal we can imagine, for ourselves, and by extension for our kids too.

People self-soothe in so many different ways when it comes to fear-based feelings. That, to me, is the core tragedy with BPD. Most of us self-soothe in ways that aren't as bad as BPD, but they aren't exactly healthy either. Usually, the thing to watch for is uncertainty -- how exactly do you respond to it? Sounds like your go-to is anxiety. What are you doing with the anxiety? How is it helping you manage the situation? How is it helping you make better decisions? I eventually learned that it didn't do much to help me other than get me to pay attention to the issue. Once anxiety had my attention, I tended to spin and spin and spin. I had trouble sleeping, I lost weight, I couldn't focus on being present and connected emotionally with my son. My T helped me learn to focus on the uncertainty. What was I uncertain about? What part of the dynamic did I have control over? What was out of my control? I think that's why so many people here say to let go of the outcome and to focus on the things that you can control, which is usually your behavior. Focusing on someone else's behavior gives us this phony feeling that we're controlling the uncertainty, it makes us feel less afraid of it. But it doesn't work that way, especially with someone as ill as your exH.

I'm not saying it's easy to focus on the uncertainty and try to manage your worry and anxiety. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do anything -- just pay careful attention to what part of the anxiety is working, if it even is working, and start to look carefully at what the uncertainty is about. That's why I wrote a long time ago in one your posts about the psychotic episode N/BPDx had. I thought he was going to kill himself and then kill S13. I walked into the belly of my greatest fear that night and the weeks after. When I came out of that experience, I had this entirely new resolve. I grew a backbone, not just asserting myself, but in how I was going to live going forward. It wasn't a choice I went looking for -- it happened to me. I literally could not keep that level of anxiety and fear going. That level of stress would be the death of me. Not to mention I could not function well as S13's parent. He needed me to be present, so that's what I decided to do.

[momtara]

Thanks.  That means a lot.

I wish my anxiety had told me to just do everything when I had the chance (like you told me!) ask for a psych eval and stay strong.  In fact, I got intimidated, thought maybe I could control the situation, and let a lot of my case drop.  The prospect of putting exH under supervised visitation again isn't likely and would also seem bad faith unless he really does something bad.  There are still things I can do legally, but for now I kind of have to sit still.  Or actually, I can file for contempt based on the last incident and try to fight.  Something is not letting me do that.  It's a lot of work - but that's a stupid reason not to do it.  A bigger reason is just that maybe I'd be doing it all out of anxiety.  I don't know what's right anymore.  Even choosing to answer an email from ex forces me into hours of analysis and decision making.  I'm tired of it.  

[momtara]

LandL, one thing that may have changed you, though, was that you were worried for a long time that something would happen - and finally, it did.  It was probably a godsend in some ways because now you could act.  It wasn't as bad as you thought, but it was bad.  Finally you had something concrete to respond to.   I am waiting for such a gift - something that allows me to protect the kids better without having to see them hurt, something concrete to give me direction.  I filed a restraining order once and didn't back down and I got exH out of the house.  I was given a gift this summer when the parent coordinator urged me to file an emergency motion, and I did, and then his doctors defended him and no one really said to me, "They're probably full of crap, you can still win this... ." and I thought I had to save face and bow out gracefully.  I can't really blame anyone else though.  I just have no one in my everyday life to guide me, no lawyer friends or even too many general friends I can talk to.  Coming here helps.

I guess I can look at the fact that there was a time exH was not on medication, especially after the restraining order was lifted, and the kids were ok in his care.  But still, all that time and until recently, he thought we might get back together.  That was a strong incentive for him to get help.  He was often telling me how the medicine was working and helping him.   I think one of the reasons he dropped his medication was that I started setting boundaries and now he doesn't think we'll get back together.

I called my T and he can see me Monday.   My lawyer hasn't responded to my email in which I sent her my ex's odd emails.  I wish she'd say "Yeah, that's concerning" or "just hang tight" or something to give me a little direction.  I need an unbiased perspective who's familiar with the law.

[livednlearned]

LandL, one thing that may have changed you, though, was that you were worried for a long time that something would happen - and finally, it did.  It was probably a godsend in some ways because now you could act.  It wasn't as bad as you thought, but it was bad.  Finally you had something concrete to respond to.   I am waiting for such a gift - something that allows me to protect the kids better without having to see them hurt, something concrete to give me direction.  I filed a restraining order once and didn't back down and I got exH out of the house.  I was given a gift this summer when the parent coordinator urged me to file an emergency motion, and I did, and then his doctors defended him and no one really said to me, "They're probably full of crap, you can still win this... ." and I thought I had to save face and bow out gracefully.  I can't really blame anyone else though.  I just have no one in my everyday life to guide me, no lawyer friends or even too many general friends I can talk to.  Coming here helps.

I guess I can look at the fact that there was a time exH was not on medication, especially after the restraining order was lifted, and the kids were ok in his care.  But still, all that time and until recently, he thought we might get back together.  That was a strong incentive for him to get help.  He was often telling me how the medicine was working and helping him.   I think one of the reasons he dropped his medication was that I started setting boundaries and now he doesn't think we'll get back together.

I called my T and he can see me Monday.   My lawyer hasn't responded to my email in which I sent her my ex's odd emails.  I wish she'd say "Yeah, that's concerning" or "just hang tight" or something to give me a little direction.  I need an unbiased perspective who's familiar with the law.

It's true that the psychotic episode did give me something to work with, but it's also true that it still took a lot of moving parts to get what I wanted. Even then I didn't get the whole thing -- that didn't happen until N/BPDx didn't exercise his visitation. Over no control of my own, and in complete opposition to what the court granted him, he gave me the one thing I wanted! After the psychotic episode, I filed an ex parte motion, then we ended up with a PC. She worked with us for a year. During that time, N/BPDx still got visitation with S13, which stunned me. Then N/BPDx threatened the PC. Then his lawyer withdrew from the case. The PC called for a meeting with the judge and testified that she could not work with N/BPDx, and she trains PCs in our district, and didn't think our case was suitable for a PC. N/BPDx needed a judge. By then, there were a lot of very distorted emails and court appearances from N/BPDx.

So yes, the psychotic episode was a watershed event emotionally for me, but then things crawled through the system and it took thousands of dollars and a lot of fortuitous things to happen before I got where I am now. These things are separate -- how we respond to the fears, and how we deal with the courts.

I know it's hard.  :'( My heart really does break for you -- this is so exhausting and trying, and you're raising your young kids not only as a single parent, but you also have to deal with courts and lawyers and psychiatrists, and a disordered and delusional ex.

Don't beat yourself up about it taking a long time to write emails to lawyers or to your ex -- it's part of the strain. That's why you have friends here, to help you if we can. People here understand exactly the gauntlet you're running, trying to balance asserting your boundaries with concern for your kids, second-guessing the court system, trying to get lawyers to impart their advice, as opaque as it can be, meanwhile the expense racking up.

Be gentle with yourself about the worry you feel, but just know that there are some steps you can take toward feeling less overwhelmed and anxious. It's the hardest journey to take, but that path is always there. You can walk it at any time. At some point, you will get there, probably exactly when you are ready, and all of this will feel right.

[momtara]

Thanks.

That's very helpful.  You've been so encouraging and understanding and I appreciate it.

That's crazy that your ex still got visitation!  It must have been scary for you to go to court, show all those things, and still he could have your son in his hands.  I wonder if his parents were involved too?  I think my ex secretly wants to avoid seeing the kids some weekends, but his family pushes him unfortunately.

At least a PC was there to help... .we start with a new one in November.  I put it off so that we could try to work together ourselves.  Looks like we need the PC sooner!

[livednlearned]

Thanks.

That's very helpful.  You've been so encouraging and understanding and I appreciate it.

That's crazy that your ex still got visitation!  It must have been scary for you to go to court, show all those things, and still he could have your son in his hands.

And I have a good judge. 

I wonder if his parents were involved too?  I think my ex secretly wants to avoid seeing the kids some weekends, but his family pushes him unfortunately.

He is estranged from his family -- he split them black. Initially, the person who pushed for more visitation was his L. He was a father's rights advocate who thought I was trying to wreck N/BPDx's relationship with his child. The L insisted on more time than N/BPDx wanted, or could handle.

At least a PC was there to help... .we start with a new one in November.  I put it off so that we could try to work together ourselves.  Looks like we need the PC sooner!

With severely mentally ill people who also happen to be high-functioning, I think having a third-party professional involved is really helpful. My PC also took calls on the weekend, which is when I always felt the most panicky. Usually, something flared up Friday night, and visitation was supposed to happen the next day. It was comforting to know I could call someone else who had a lot of perspective about both custody/courts and mental illness. Even when she was uncertain, I found it comforting to recognize that I wasn't the only one.

[momtara]

That's great that your PC was so helpful. 

So my exH wrote back and said that the reason he asked about supervision is that I had told him he needs at least 1 parent to supervise this weekend.  Odd, I never said that.  So he asked again for my permission to take them unsupervised.  I said I'd prefer to have a person there.  We'll see what he says.  I have to tread delicately.  I think he wants to show that he can do it on his own. 

[livednlearned]

That's great that your PC was so helpful. 

So my exH wrote back and said that the reason he asked about supervision is that I had told him he needs at least 1 parent to supervise this weekend.  Odd, I never said that.  So he asked again for my permission to take them unsupervised.  I said I'd prefer to have a person there.  We'll see what he says.  I have to tread delicately.  I think he wants to show that he can do it on his own. 

Maybe a simple question, "Please let me know if you are taking your medications so I am less anxious about this."

Give him some hope, not too overbearing a question, not directive.

[momtara]

Good idea.  I am trying to fish around.  Unfortunately, that's engagement, but I'm doing it anyway.  I first asked why he thinks I can give him permission, and he said, "Two months ago your lawyer went to court to get me on supervised visitation and so now I'm on it."  He completely doesn't remember that we signed an agreement a month ago and he's seen the kids unsupervised since then.  Now I am really scared.  Should I be?  Am I getting too wound up?  He's definitely mentally ill.  After our divorce, he forgot that he didn't have to pay the cable bill anymore and got upset at me and asked why I hadn't sent him the bill.  Seems like the same thing, he forgot we signed a consent order!  I don't want to take advantage of this and tell him no, you can't take the kids, but I'm afraid of over eagerly saying yes... .because maybe I need to go back to court next week and ask for supervised again, or a psych eval.

[livednlearned]

Good idea.  I am trying to fish around.  Unfortunately, that's engagement, but I'm doing it anyway.  I first asked why he thinks I can give him permission, and he said, "Two months ago your lawyer went to court to get me on supervised visitation and so now I'm on it."  He completely doesn't remember that we signed an agreement a month ago and he's seen the kids unsupervised since then.  Now I am really scared.  Should I be?  Am I getting too wound up?  He's definitely mentally ill.  After our divorce, he forgot that he didn't have to pay the cable bill anymore and got upset at me and asked why I hadn't sent him the bill.  Seems like the same thing, he forgot we signed a consent order!  I don't want to take advantage of this and tell him no, you can't take the kids, but I'm afraid of over eagerly saying yes... .because maybe I need to go back to court next week and ask for supervised again, or a psych eval.

Right now, with his delusional thinking, it's not really about engagement. He is leaving a document trail for you to use, to back up your actions if you need. He is thinking something that is advantageous to you situation, and he seems to be unaware enough to put these thoughts and beliefs in an email. If it were my situation, I would coax it out.

I experience similar delusional/psychotic stuff with my ex, momtara. N/BPDx even went so far as to file a motion for contempt against me without any basis in reality. It's very surreal to see him stand up in court and say that the judge didn't order visitation, when... .um... .the document is right there. The judge who ordered the visitation is sitting right in front of him. Me and my lawyer, and the clerk were all there. I don't know exactly how this distorted stuff is different than straight-up BPD, but apparently it is. I guess the biggest difference is that it isn't about feelings=facts, it's a severe distortion of reality that is separate from how they feel.

I interpret my ex's psychosis as a deep-rooted belief seated somewhere in his psyche that he knows he is not safe to be around. Somewhere, he knows there is something wrong, and so he has voices or psychotic episodes that -- in a very crazy way -- help him do the right thing. I know he feels worried about being around S13, but the BPD makes it impossible for him to just give up the fight and admit he is ill.

When my ex does this stuff, I let email capture everything I can. Then I use it in court.

The most recent thing that happened is N/BPDx sending a letter to S13. Inside was a book mark, a letter six, and a star. That's all. The kind of bits of stuff you find wedged deep in the creases of your couch.

My son's middle name is my last name, and on the outside of the letter, N/BPDx had written S13's full name, except he "x'ed" out his middle name.

That, and my L said that the judge won't start court in session until the bailiff is in the courtroom, and pointed out that the bailiff stands right next to N/BPDx's table when it's our turn. Every single time we're in court, I watch the bailiff walk across the room and stand between N/BPDx and the clerk.

I picked a real winner. 

[david]

Letting ex show that he has issues with reality is a good thing for you and the kids. The more you have of that the better you will be in court when you decide.

I waited an entire year to build up enough evidence. Then ex dragged things out another year. I continued building more evidence.

We currently have a temp modification in our custody order. I am still building evidence that ex is giving me. I am making things completely clear that things will not change with ex since she is still doing the same things she has been doing for the last two years. The one thing that is in my favor vs your situation is our boys are older.

The courts move slowly and that isn't going to change.

I agree with lnl about "a deep-rooted belief seated somewhere in the psyche that he knows he is not safe to be around." I have had the same feeling with my ex several times. I honestly believe that she is giving me this evidence to make sure the court gets it right this time. I know it sounds twisted but it is one of the only ways that I can make sense of some of her behaviors when I actually try to make sense of them.

[momtara]

I am wondering if I should let him have the unsupervised or not!  If he secretly wants me to say no, maybe I should just say no.  But if I tell him no and he still insists that he's taking them, it makes things worse.  I think I am going to say that the most recent court order says he can, and it's not up to me.  

The kids are sick, and hopefully he won't take them  anyway.

What else should I say?  If he comes to the house and acts crazy, I will hold them.

[livednlearned]

I am wondering if I should let him have the unsupervised or not!  If he secretly wants me to say no, maybe I should just say no.  But if I tell him no and he still insists that he's taking them, it makes things worse.  I think I am going to say that the most recent court order says he can, and it's not up to me.  

The kids are sick, and hopefully he won't take them  anyway.

What else should I say?  If he comes to the house and acts crazy, I will hold them.

You don't want to show anything in email that says you are denying him permission to see the kids. Don't give him anything to neutralize his behavior.

What about saying nothing?

Another thing you can do is to repeat what you said before. It feels weird to us, but to people who are boundary busters, it's different. It reinforces what we said, and it shows consistency. "I prefer that the kids do not spend time without having supervision." Or whatever you said before.

Or remind him that the kids are sick.

I think this might be an example of the difference between engaging him and documentation. Engaging him is when you feel compelled to engage, even when it is not necessary. Documenting is when you recognize he cannot control his issues and you interact because it helps you with custody stuff.

So much of what happens to us -- our cases -- comes down to the judge. That's my big takeaway. Sure, we have to have good lawyers, and we need to document, and we should learn to not engage, and all that. But even when we do things 100%, it sure seems like a bad judge can blow that all away.

Your L should be telling you what your judge is like, how she or he rules. Does your L do that?

For example, some judges look at the letter of the law and rule accordingly. They don't want to get caught up in the he-said she-said. Some judges go by gut instinct. They nudge things. Some judges read through everything. Some only read the last thing. Some will talk to kids in chambers. Some won't. Even in the same state, in the same county, in the same court room, the judges do things so different.

[momtara]

My L doesn't tell me anything.  She's tough and good in court, if it comes to that, but has little time for me.  I should have done things differently.  I guess it's time to get a new L.  Can't seem to find the balance - one who has time and is also confident in court.  I did meet with one a few months ago who said she'd need a $6K retainer to do an emergency order.  It's probably what it cost me anyway.  If my L had given me more confidence I would not be as miserable and scared right now.

I don't think my exH is going to give me another opportunity to get an emergency order.  He will be angry, but he stops short of a threat or something else.  I mean, eventually, he may give me something, but it could take a year.  I had a chance to ask for more and I blew it.  Now I have to wait for something 'bad' to happen.  I could keep documenting too, I guess.  Well,  ya never know.

[momtara]

I am trying to contact my attorney.  ExH is still sending me emails asking if he can have unsupervised visitation.  I didn't realize he could be so sick.  This is three days in a row he's asking and doesn't remember he signed a subsequent order.  I'm asking my L if I should let him take them or hold off.  I don't want to break the law because that's worse.  If I don't hear from her, I will probably let him take them but will have to deal with the situation on Monday.  I almost feel like I made him worse with all this court stuff and stress.  He is blocking out the last order because it was so tense to have the negotiations.  He wants a yes or no answer about whether he has my permission.

[DreamGirl]

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