We've struggled with this issue constantly.

[MaybeSo]

I don't think my uBPDbf is a sex addict.  I think he's a person with very low self-esteem and feelings of being completely unlovable so the only way he can feel that he's loved or cared about is to have sex.  To him, sex = love.  To him, there is no other way to show that you love someone.  All the every day things couples do to express their love - communication, helping, listening, etc., don't mean anything to him.  To him, its S-E-X every day or "pack your bags and leave because you don't love me".

That is the hallmark of being a sex addict.

Exactly.

This is a boundary issue.  You say NO when you mean no, and yes when you mean yes.  And maybe when you mean maybe.

That goes for the coercive tactics, too. No means no.  If he’s abusive about it…take distance until he has calmed down.  Remember that intermittent reinforcement makes it even harder to break a pattern…and there are extinction bursts if he has become used to even sometimes getting his way by being demanding and unpleasant. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Moselle]

Yep... totally agree. 

The issues that come up in a r/s where there are BPD traits involve intimate things... .so... .good to be able to lay all that stuff out there.

So... .anytime anyone wants more detail or anything on my story... .or all that... .I'm game.

Yes please, I've got a "From To" in a letter to my wife which reads. FROM: "The sex act" TO "Intimacy, Love, Nurturing and affection", and I have no idea how to get there, or even if a BPD NPD is capable of that.

I have introduced:

- the "Yes" "no" , "maybe" boundary,

- and I am working hard at doing things to help her feel emotionally safe, validation of her feelings.

[formflier]

Yep... totally agree. 

The issues that come up in a r/s where there are BPD traits involve intimate things... .so... .good to be able to lay all that stuff out there.

So... .anytime anyone wants more detail or anything on my story... .or all that... .I'm game.

Yes please, I've got a "From To" in a letter to my wife which reads. FROM: "The sex act" TO "Intimacy, Love, Nurturing and affection", and I have no idea how to get there, or even if a BPD NPD is capable of that.

I have introduced:

- the "Yes" "no" , "maybe" boundary,

- and I am working hard at doing things to help her feel emotionally safe, validation of her feelings.

My guess is... .and I mean guess... .that more sex will help this... .if you can step up validation before hand... .and after.  Try to make sure there is plenty of time... .so that afterwards there is time to talk, snuggle... .relax.

Every r/s is different... .some things you try may not work.  Keep trying.

So... if you go massage oil and gave her a hour long full body massage... what do you think would happen?

[formflier]

 

Should have explained that a bit more.

More intimate conversation usually results in more intimate "powerful" sexual experiences. 

If not rushed... .more sexual experiences result in more intimate conversation... .

So... .in other posts you will see me talking about getting the momentum going in the right direction... and increasing momentum... .

This is perfect example.  Keeping it going means that when you have taken 3 steps forward and then get 2 steps back... .focus on being 1 step ahead... .not the 2 you lost.

More intimacy should lead to less dysregulation... .which leads to ... .more intimacy.

And for all the nons... .this sometimes will seem like a lot of work.  It may not seem fair... .and it's not... .

But many of you have already experienced the satisfaction of thinking your r/s was hopeless... .and maybe you tried a tool just to see... .or gave something "one last try"... .and then you saw a difference. 

A change in the toxic dance that was frustrating you... .

That makes it all worth it.

[MissyM]

More intimate conversation usually results in more intimate "powerful" sexual experiences. 

If not rushed... .more sexual experiences result in more intimate conversation... .

So... .in other posts you will see me talking about getting the momentum going in the right direction... and increasing momentum... .

This is perfect example.  Keeping it going means that when you have taken 3 steps forward and then get 2 steps back... .focus on being 1 step ahead... .not the 2 you lost.

More intimacy should lead to less dysregulation... .which leads to ... .more intimacy.

And for all the nons... .this sometimes will seem like a lot of work.  It may not seem fair... .and it's not... .

Oh, how true this is!  I thought (minus the dysregulation part) that people understood this about relationships, yet my dBPDh did not understand intimate sharing at all!  This is a new skill for him and I believe it is because sharing himself at all has always triggered such shame that he couldn't tolerate it.

[Moselle]

My guess is... .and I mean guess... .that more sex will help this... .if you can step up validation before hand... .and after.  Try to make sure there is plenty of time... .so that afterwards there is time to talk, snuggle... .relax.

Every r/s is different... .some things you try may not work.  Keep trying.

So... if you go massage oil and gave her a hour long full body massage... what do you think would happen?

As mentioned, I'm trying to create something new here after 7 months of separation, and I know I'm going to have to lead it down a healthy path if we're going to get there

Thanks for this. The BPD and NPD was very definitely in the bed for us, her approach to sex was. "I just get bored if it takes time. Get busy, get it over with and get back to things I want to do" she really isn't interested in the connection, verbal intimacy. It just isn't on her radar screen of stuff she wants to do. It's a waste of time when she could be busy with something else. I think it's really that simple. "It's not my thing , it's his, therefore I'm not interested". She believes sex is for having children, and as soon as I try to have a constructive discussionn it becomes "You're pressuring me to do it your way"

The intimacy/ sex has always been a proxy battle about the rest of the relationship. I'm going to try and separate the two, like you have. You mentioned you were lucky that it just worked that way.  :)id you discuss it with her before you married?

[Moselle]

Should have explained that a bit more.

More intimate conversation usually results in more intimate "powerful" sexual experiences. 

If not rushed... .more sexual experiences result in more intimate conversation... .

So... .in other posts you will see me talking about getting the momentum going in the right direction... and increasing momentum... .

A change in the toxic dance that was frustrating you... .

That makes it all worth it.

I'm afraid I put a stop to the momentum. It was time to shake the tree a bit and deal with the extinction burst. I have decided to set a standard for behaviours. She said "But I'm not perfect and it'll take time", so I said, that doesn't change the standard. Everyone makes mistakes. Say sorry, we burn it and move on.

It went a bit pear shaped therafter, but I've needed to set the standard of what I want in a romantic and family  relationship. I'm just plain and simply not willing to live a life of disorder and chaos, for me but especially for the children. It's now her choice

The initmacy seems far away and I'm comfortable with that. In the old relationship, I woulld be the one needy for sex to "fix" the problem and make evryone feel better. The fact that I am happt to have no sex this whole week is a wonderful thing. That alone should be enough to tell her thing have changed fundamentally. I'm not trying to make everyone feel better. Thanks 'Co-dep no more'

I'm doing lots of things to let her know that I care as well. Making dinner, looking after the kids, complimenting her, validating her feelings.

[formflier]

The intimacy/ sex has always been a proxy battle about the rest of the relationship. I'm going to try and separate the two, like you have. You mentioned you were lucky that it just worked that way.  :)id you discuss it with her before you married?

Well... .even if my wife just believed it was for kids... .would have worked out well for me... .  We have 8 children...

We had done some premarital counseling in the church.  We had also talked about what our sex life would be like after marriage.  And there is a fairly consistent message in church teaching that withholding is bad... .sex as weapon or argument settler is bad.

Sex is for healing in a marriage... .because arguments will happen... .that is normal.  Sex is also for deepening a bond... .for "becoming one".

pwBPD traits don't normally like to be confronted with being wrong.  I'm guessing at this point... .about her thought process... .probably wasn't conscious... .but she was much more comfortable finding things I had done wrong and confronting me about that in a church setting... with pastors and pastoral counselors... .than being confronted herself.

"Cutting me off"... would have brought lots of attention to her.

Moselle,

Just some guessing for you... .then stay away from the coupling of sex and intimate talk.  Don't drop it entirely... .but don't let her know it is a focus of yours.

Maybe go for shoulder rub with some talk.  Outside the bedroom.

Again just guessing.  The point is not the physical contact... .the point is getting some relaxation... .some letting down of the guard... .and sharing some feeling. 

Thoughts?

[formflier]

 

Fine to have standards... .just be "gentle" with them.  Focus more on when she met them... .rather than when she did not.

Try to refocus on getting momentum going... .

[Moselle]

We had done some premarital counseling in the church.  We had also talked about what our sex life would be like after marriage.  And there is a fairly consistent message in church teaching that withholding is bad... .sex as weapon or argument settler is bad.

Sex is for healing in a marriage... .because arguments will happen... .that is normal.  Sex is also for deepening a bond... .for "becoming one".

Moselle,

Just some guessing for you... .then stay away from the coupling of sex and intimate talk.  Don't drop it entirely... .but don't let her know it is a focus of yours.

Maybe go for shoulder rub with some talk.  Outside the bedroom.

Again just guessing.  The point is not the physical contact... .the point is getting some relaxation... .some letting down of the guard... .and sharing some feeling. 

Thoughts?[/quote]
I think that kind of message to folks getting married is so valuable!

I'm not that thrilled to rub her back to be honest, or show any kind of interest sexually. Being disrespected, shouted at and blamed, tends to put me off.

7 months ago, I would have taken whatever I could get, but I'm not playing that ballgame any more.

I am being very respectful in non-sexual ways, and doing lots of things to help her feel validated

[formflier]

I'm not that thrilled to rub her back to be honest, or show any kind of interest sexually. Being disrespected, shouted at and blamed, tends to put me off.

7 months ago, I would have taken whatever I could get, but I'm not playing that ballgame any more.

I am being very respectful in non-sexual ways, and doing lots of things to help her feel validated

Might be something you have to work through a time or two... .

After three or four times of a back rub... .some talk... .and no sex... .the issues may be separated... .or not.

If that seems bad or triggering for you... .then stick with a glass of ice water. 

Bring in two... .one for her and for you.  "Hey... .just thought I'd give you a quick break... ."  Toss in some validation... .

If she grumps or rages... .leave the water... ."Sorry for the interruption... .a kiss on the head or forehead and out the door... .NO JADEing... .no I was just trying to be nice"

Thoughts?

[toomanyeggshells]

I'm not that thrilled to rub her back to be honest, or show any kind of interest sexually. Being disrespected, shouted at and blamed, tends to put me off.

7 months ago, I would have taken whatever I could get, but I'm not playing that ballgame any more.

I am being very respectful in non-sexual ways, and doing lots of things to help her feel validated

This is exactly where I'm at.  UBPDbf expects the screaming, etc. to just roll off my back and that I should have wonderful feelings for him and want to be intimate with him in spite of his awful behavior.  After 5 years of it, I can't just put the bad stuff out of my mind and feel all loving towards him. 

I do like the idea of some non-sexual validation through touching. He used to complaint that I never reached out to him when he walked past me or that I never hugged him.  I'm going to try to do some of that and see how it goes. 

[formflier]

This is exactly where I'm at.  UBPDbf expects the screaming, etc. to just roll off my back and that I should have wonderful feelings for him and want to be intimate with him in spite of his awful behavior.  After 5 years of it, I can't just put the bad stuff out of my mind and feel all loving towards him. 

I do like the idea of some non-sexual validation through touching. He used to complaint that I never reached out to him when he walked past me or that I never hugged him.  I'm going to try to do some of that and see how it goes. 

As "nons" it is important that we think things through... .and make wise decisions based not on our feelings (who makes decisions based primarily on that?  ) but on what we have considered carefully and that we believe is a wise investment of our time and effort based on what we have learned in lessons and tools.

So... .if you know that you are not in a place to pull this off now... .then move along... .let's find things we can try to see if we can get the r/s dynamic heading in the right direction.

If you do need to move along... make sure you are thinking about what you can do to get yourself to a stronger place... .where you can pull it off. 

Thoughts?

[PeppermintTea]

To respond to another post, I don't feel like a victim at all.  When I give him what he wants when I'm not in the mood, I know why I do it and that's basically to shut him up.  Then I go about my business and do what I want to do.  If he wants to act like its a transaction (unfortunately without the money), then I can do that.  Its awful that its that way, but it is.  When I really don't want to have sex, I dont.  I know exactly how he'll behave and I'm prepared for it.  I take a book and leave the room or the house.  Unfortunately for him, his behavior on this issue and others has crushed any intimate feelings I have for him so there hasn't been any intimacy or romantic sex for a long while, just some going-through-the-motions sex.  That's just the way it is. 

Toomanyeggshells

You have summed up the current state of play in my relationship. Our sex life is a transaction which we perform to prop up my dBPDh's ego. I am unhappy with this and he is also unhappy with this because he knows we lack intimacy and I think it's that he craves but he doesn't understand that all his behaviours outside the bedroom have left me distanced.

MydBPDh is in therapy and in many areas of our marriage we are making good progress but in terms of intimacy and sex we not. This is the area that still gets my husband disregulated on a regular basis. In fact he is hardly speaking to me currently over a 'bedroom incident' (I wasn't respnding in the way he thinks I should).

What I would like is to say to my husband "I love you and I would like us to have a good intimate sex life. However given the last few years I'm not mentally in a place to achieve this at the moment and it would be helpful if I could have some space." He doesn't see it this way though. He sees it as he is in therapy and trying very hard to manage his behaviour and because he is doing this I should immediately want to have sex with him everyday (so should be able to forget everything that has ever gone before.) And it can't just be sex (like you describe above) it has to be full on romantic, intimate, connected, making love sex. I just can't manage this at the moment because I don't really feel intimate and connected in any other area of our lives.

I don't feel like I hold grudges or resentment towards him but I do feel that I am a different person to the one who entered this marriage and I need time and space to come to terms with this and to come to terms with who my husband is. I can't just flick a switch. I don't feel safely supported and loved in the marriage (yet - I hope this will come because he is definitely trying to change).

Sorry for rambling. It's just that we seem to have the same problems in this area and it's helpful to be able to express it somewhere.

many thanks

PT

[formflier]

Toomanyeggshells

You have summed up the current state of play in my relationship. Our sex life is a transaction which we perform to prop up my dBPDh's ego. I am unhappy with this and he is also unhappy with this because he knows we lack intimacy and I think it's that he craves but he doesn't understand that all his behaviours outside the bedroom have left me distanced.

MydBPDh is in therapy and in many areas of our marriage we are making good progress but in terms of intimacy and sex we not. This is the area that still gets my husband disregulated on a regular basis. In fact he is hardly speaking to me currently over a 'bedroom incident' (I wasn't respnding in the way he thinks I should).

What I would like is to say to my husband "I love you and I would like us to have a good intimate sex life. However given the last few years I'm not mentally in a place to achieve this at the moment and it would be helpful if I could have some space." He doesn't see it this way though. He sees it as he is in therapy and trying very hard to manage his behaviour and because he is doing this I should immediately want to have sex with him everyday (so should be able to forget everything that has ever gone before.) And it can't just be sex (like you describe above) it has to be full on romantic, intimate, connected, making love sex. I just can't manage this at the moment because I don't really feel intimate and connected in any other area of our lives.

I don't feel like I hold grudges or resentment towards him but I do feel that I am a different person to the one who entered this marriage and I need time and space to come to terms with this and to come to terms with who my husband is. I can't just flick a switch. I don't feel safely supported and loved in the marriage (yet - I hope this will come because he is definitely trying to change).

Sorry for rambling. It's just that we seem to have the same problems in this area and it's helpful to be able to express it somewhere.

many thanks

PT

PeppermintTea,

Have you tried to break this into smaller "steps" with your hubby? 

He is taking steps towards getting better by going to therapy... .but it's not "fixed".

So... it would seem reasonable for you to take steps towards the sex life he wants... .but maybe he doesn't get the full on treatment he is demanding all the time.

Seems like since you want space that he should be ok with that some as well.

I would try to stay away form "either/or"  black and white type of choices... .focus more on compromise.

Compare it to what he is doing... .but compare gently... .

Make sense?  Thing this is worth a try?