Will Empaths always attract BPDs?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

As I continue in personal inventory, I read a statement that left me questioning:  Empths will always attract and be attracted to BPDs and or NPDs.  

Im clearly an empth.  I meet all the criteria. Empths have an ability to truly feel another's emotions. In a deep way. This ability can be genetic or a result of FOO issues. And generally blossoms in adulthood. This is me.

I used to have great conversations with my expBPD about this. He, too always said he could read ppl. Of course, realizing post r/s that he is pBPD, that ability is much different than an Empths. I actually know empathy.

I've noticed retrospectively that I indeed have always been in r/s with pBPD or pNPD. I married a pNPD. After the r/s ended, the pBPD r/s took over. Looking back I see traits in my earlier r/s's.

My T says both my pNPD spouse and pBPD recent ex are the same man.  She has met them both.  

It's been a horrific few years as a result of the perfect storm I endured.

I tend to be attracted to very sensitive men.  Moving forward I think I  am realizing why.  Bc there is always a child underneath that sensitive demeanor that I somehow continue to feel a bond with. And I don't want to.

I ignore no    now. I've ended a few recent casual r/s at the hint of push/ pull.  Im realistically trying to explore what type of partnership is indeed the healthiest for an empath moving forward. As I've been through the wrath of hell with the NPD and BPD r/s.  I'm not actively searching for a new r/s but remain cautiously guarded as I meet new men. My boundaries are unwavering now. I've been alone for a good amount of time and gone inside to do my work.

I appreciate the feedback of this community of support and find it tremendously valuable.  

[Caredverymuch]

As I continue in personal inventory, I read a statement that left me questioning:  Empths will always attract and be attracted to BPDs and or NPDs.  

Im clearly an empth.  I meet all the criteria. Empths have an ability to truly feel another's emotions. In a deep way. This ability can be genetic or a result of FOO issues. And generally blossoms in adulthood. This is me.

I used to have great conversations with my expBPD about this. He, too always said he could read ppl. Of course, realizing post r/s that he is pBPD, that ability is much different than an Empths. I actually know empathy.

I've noticed retrospectively that I indeed have always been in r/s with pBPD or pNPD. I married a pNPD. After the r/s ended, the pBPD r/s took over. Looking back I see traits in my earlier r/s's.

My T says both my pNPD spouse and pBPD recent ex are the same man.  She has met them both.  

It's been a horrific few years as a result of the perfect storm I endured.

I tend to be attracted to very sensitive men.  Moving forward I think I  am realizing why.  Bc there is always a child underneath that sensitive demeanor that I somehow continue to feel a bond with. And I don't want to.

I ignore no    now. I've ended a few recent casual r/s at the hint of push/ pull.  Im realistically trying to explore what type of partnership is indeed the healthiest for an empath moving forward. As I've been through the wrath of hell with the NPD and BPD r/s.  I'm not actively searching for a new r/s but remain cautiously guarded as I meet new men. My boundaries are unwavering now. I've been alone for a good amount of time and gone inside to do my work.

I appreciate the feedback of this community of support and find it tremendously valuable.  

[freedom33]

The question for me is whether that sensitive child that one fall in love with was indeed part of the pwBPD.

I am inclined to believe that actually it is ours. The pwBPD's core is hollow and is covered by a mirror which is the perfect hook for projections.

I think our own inner child was projected on to them that we then we fell in love with and felt compelled to take care of. If one does not make conscious and nurture their own inner child that has suffered narcissistic injuries and needs attention then inevitably all of this woundedness will be projected outside and the same mistakes will be repeated over and over again.

I can't help not to bring up the myth of narcissus that saw his reflection in the lake and fall in love with it until he fall in and drowned.  We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.

[2014]

This is a very interesting topic.

I am an empath as well (and a huge introvert) and i attract NPD's & BPD's as well.

And to be honest, i am (actually; i was) attracted to them as well (but will no longer go there, learning here). And i always said the same thing, there is this child in these grown up men that i can see, a sweet, playful child that i adore so much… until i learned the hard way how that child could make you bleed from every pore when being in an adult relationship with them as it was and always will be 'me me me' and their huge lack of basic empathy.

But the thing is, even though i can spot a cluster B now from far and i protect myself by not even going on a first date, they will not give up. They remain hardcore attracted to me and i wonder why? I am deleting, blocking, ignoring any new guy that i feel have cluster b vibes and they still won't give up, some of them really believing that i will be the 'one' for them if i just would give it a chance.

[Caredverymuch]

But the thing is, even though i can spot a cluster B now from far and i protect myself by not even going on a first date, they will not give up. They remain hardcore attracted to me and i wonder why? I am deleting, blocking, ignoring any new guy that i feel have cluster b vibes and they still won't give up, some of them really believing that i will be the 'one' for them if i just would give it a chance.

I find this profoundly accurate in my life as well. I can spot cluster b almost immediately now. Both of the men I recent went on one date with were cluster b. i immediately put my boundary up.  The first man would not give up on me.  He was so interested in me he continued to persue me for months as I gave little back in return except appropriateness.

The moment I gave in to a second date, he pushed back. It was a lovely fun evening too. I blocked him from contact after the push , he noticed weeks later. And continued for months to plead for a third date. All the whole with no response from me. He continues to try every few wks to see if i will go out w him again. After i most appropriately told him i was not interested.

A newer man I've dated pursued me for years. I mean years. When we recently both became single, same thing.  Dated twice.  Great times.  Incredibly easy and fun. Then he pushed away. I answer him when I feel like it and not always. The many times I do not answer his texts, etc. He goes overdrive on contact.

I have only casual feelings for these men so its ok that they pushed back.  But wth is it that these cluster b men cant leave me alone?

[imstronghere2]

But wth is it that these cluster b men cant leave me alone?

Conquest.  Simple as that.  They want what they can't have.  F'd up.

[myself]

There's a big difference between sensitive and disordered.

I consider myself sensitive, and am drawn to partners who are too.

I found I'm too sensitive to be with someone who's disordered, though.

[Moselle]

Yes, I do believe there will always be an attraction, and I believe it's a two way attraction. In the same way negative and positive poles attract. Perhaps there is a way to de-magnetize (electro-shock therapy?  )

Well actually, until we can soothe ourselves as empaths, we will always seek that soothing by someone else, and there is nothing as soothing as looking into a mirror - enter the pwBPD/NPD. Mine seems to know instinctively what to say/do to soothe me. It creates the dependency which they need for the abuse to start. Without the dependency, we would just leave.

Do they do it consciously? I think so.

[huhhuh]

I tend to be attracted to very sensitive men. 

wait wait wait...

I'm not really following you here. I'm not sure if I misunderstand you.

My definition of a sensitive person is the same as being a HSP and a empath. Narcissists and Borderlines are the opposite. NOT sensitive.

In case I misunderstand you, can you explain what you mean with sensitive men?

--

Being an empath is both a gift and a curse.

The attraction between empath and narcissists is very common since they are complete opposite and opposites attract each other. So seen from that perspective in order NOT to be attracted to narcissists you need to be less of an empath.

Have you read this page: (Can I link to other sites?)

www.thehappysensitive.com/how-to-stop-being-empathic-and-become-a-complete-narcissist-a-k-a-arsecissist/

Obviously it is written with humor, but try to play with the thought a bit. Do you really want to give up your empath power?

[freedom33]

The attraction between empath and narcissists is very common since they are complete opposite and opposites attract each other. So seen from that perspective in order NOT to be attracted to narcissists you need to be less of an empath.

Yes and this can be done by using some of that empathy to one's self. E.g. look at yourself from outside sitting alone and crying in your room and imagine what would you tell them and what sort of af advice would give this person if they were your friend. Literally imagine that for yourself. You can do it! You are an expert in doing it for others. Why not for yourself?

Empathy means trying to put yourself in some else's shoes and feel how someone feels. Now that is good if someone is balanced and has empathy both for oneself and another. The problem is when someone doesn't empathise with one's self. Can't be in one's own shoes. Feel their own feelings. Then they feel compelled to project that to someone else and live through the feelings of the other. Has anyone wondered why someone else's feelings or moods should matter and impact one so much? Why one is so dependent on another person's feelings? Why the divine feelings projected by the BPD ot us at the start felt like heaven and then the negative feelings like hell?

The BPD wants to control their partner (either bring them closer if they fear abandonment or push them away if they fear annihilation). BPDs (and NPDs) are having their way by using their strong feelings and emotions and projecting them to manipulate. This is mostly done unconsciously. The empath is very vulnerable to projective identification (basically emotional brainwashing). The 'empath' is not paying attention to their own needs and feelings lives through someone else's is picking those feelings up and internalises them as if they were his own. Because an empaths feelings never mattered when they were growing up. They were emotionally starved. They are experts in reading other's feelings and tending to them but never their own. Unfortunately this is a parasitic relationship on both sides. One party is more conscious though (guess who?) and has better chances to wake up and start doing something about it.

[hergestridge]

I'm a bit confused by the use of the term "empathy" here.

How can one be empathetic with a person who is being abusive towards you? In my book this means you are not able to put yourself in this person's shoes. Most of us stayed with a person who pushed us away. Is that really empathetic?

The kind of "empathy" we nons provide is saying "I know how you feel, but your feelings are wrong and I will stay with you no matter what, because I know that somewhere deep inside you are another, better person.".

Personally, I used to think of that as empathy, but now I think I was wrong. I was wrong in ignoring her feelings and thinking she was someone she was not.

I end up with people who invade my privacy because I am (or was) no good at saying no, so I ended up in "empathetic" conversations instead. I have found that true empathy (this sounds very grand, I know) comes from letting people be themselves, even if they turn out to be ___holes. And if they turn out to be, it's all their problem.

[Loveofhislife]

The question for me is whether that sensitive child that one fall in love with was indeed part of the pwBPD.

I am inclined to believe that actually it is ours. The pwBPD's core is hollow and is covered by a mirror which is the perfect hook for projections.

I think our own inner child was projected on to them that we then we fell in love with and felt compelled to take care of. If one does not make conscious and nurture their own inner child that has suffered narcissistic injuries and needs attention then inevitably all of this woundedness will be projected outside and the same mistakes will be repeated over and over again.

Freedom 33--great analysis. I know for certain this is why my T is staying focused on inner child work with me: a concept I gave short shrift for a long while. I have found myself "feeling by proxy"--I can feel pain for others --even movie characters--easier than I can feel my own. I somehow severed those feelings constantly felt by exbfBPD (pain, jealousy, anger, loathing), so I think I experienced those feelings through him. I understand that's a little different from my projecting my feelings onto him. And Caredverymuch--your story sounds so much like mine--I found myself wanting to cry more for you than for me--perfect example! I struggle to feel my own pain. Yes, we are empathic--I'm certain that is part of why NPD and BPD choose us, NOW we must continue to choose for us. I feel the way I think an alcoholic would--I MUST stay away from bars to survive, or as Freedom33 wrote of Narcissus, I know I will fall in the water and drown.

[Caredverymuch]

But wth is it that these cluster b men cant leave me alone?

Conquest.  Simple as that.  They want what they can't have.  F'd up.

     

[SpringInMyStep]

I actually think BPDs seek out empaths. They find us because they know we'll feel bad for them.

[freedom33]

Here is something that a psychiatrist called Roger Lewin wrote in his blog about BPDs.

"No good deed goes unpunished." There is a related Chinese, saying “Why do you hate me? I never tried to help you.” What both these peculiar dicta present is the truth that when we seek to help, when we make ourselves available, we volunteer not just as love objects but also as hate objects. We put ourselves in the way of hurt.

We present ourselves as people on whom borderline patients can take vengeance, people with whom the patient can enact the roles of the ones who hurt them, people whose naive optimism and hopefulness about life patients can not only dent but shatter and grind under foot.

We become threats and promises all mixed up together, just the sort of thing that can really mix a person up, if not drive that person crazy. It is not a safe occupation treating borderline patients, because it is hard to know how to defend yourself, the therapist, enough, without defending yourself too much."

[Artisan]

I was expected to hold the pain and handle the hatred aspects with total calm equanimity and acceptance. She was unable to accept her own emotions, why was I forced to become responsible?

Being an empath is confusing enough. Living with somebody who is constantly projecting, gaslighting, and saying all kinds of up and down just makes life total hell for an empath.

Do BPDs deliberately prey on empaths?

No.

Us empathic types respond to their energy ; the vivaciousness and brightness of the positive side. Even if the core source of that power is tainted, the expression and liveness is amazing.

It feels like an energetic match ; an empaths dream, finding a person who GROKS at a non-verbal, emotional level.

The sad truth comes out eventually that it isn't a mutual understanding. In truth, they are two completely alien perspectives about life, communication and love.

I will never hold to the idea that BPDs are out there preying on anybody, let alone empaths.

BPDs don't, for the most part, know what it is they are doing. As an empath, WE KNOW THAT.

And as empowered empaths, we drew a line recognizing that in order to love someone, one must first have something to give.

And in relationship to a BPD, we give everything to the point of energetic exhaustion and depletion.

It's kryptonite to our empathic abilities ; and then once we lose our own self in false-service, there is nothing to give. The BPD goes bonkers b/c they are no longer receiving the validation, recognition, appreciation, and everything from the empath.

And the empath dies inside because the ability to recharge, center and integrate confusing emotional experiences demands and requires solitude, self-nurturing, and an absence of emotional and life chaos.

That never happens with a BPD in the picture.

It is impossible. Withdrawing from a BPD to self-nurture is taken personally by the BPD as if they are a bad person and they are being abandoned. What a trigger.

The empath is eventually left with one choice ; to be alive.

Because once that choice-point has been reached, the empath has already died and is recognizing how much light, life and love has disappeared.

This takes an empath further than mere empathic talents ; it awakens us to a whole new depth of awareness, sensitivity and ability to trust in our self, intuitions, and what we see and feel about people.

It is odd for me at this point. When going in public, I feel people and their moods so easily. Spotting trouble is very simple.

And knowing that the source of my joy and contentment in life is based on my own emotional health and stability ; making the choice to step away from dramatic people and energies has been liberating and empowering.

After all, I do not need to help anyone. I trust in their ability to learn and discover their own truth.

I am responsible for my domain, this self that I am, and others can rule who they are, their body, mind and spirit, as they feel appropriate.

Without going through the things with my xBPD, I'd never have really understood or even recognized these subtle gifts, or the true extent of the power and advantage it gives in social circles.

[freedom33]

The empath is eventually left with one choice ; to be alive.

Because once that choice-point has been reached, the empath has already died and is recognizing how much light, life and love has disappeared.

This takes an empath further than mere empathic talents ; it awakens us to a whole new depth of awareness, sensitivity and ability to trust in our self, intuitions, and what we see and feel about people.

It is odd for me at this point. When going in public, I feel people and their moods so easily. Spotting trouble is very simple.

And knowing that the source of my joy and contentment in life is based on my own emotional health and stability ; making the choice to step away from dramatic people and energies has been liberating and empowering.

After all, I do not need to help anyone. I trust in their ability to learn and discover their own truth.

I am responsible for my domain, this self that I am, and others can rule who they are, their body, mind and spirit, as they feel appropriate.

Without going through the things with my xBPD, I'd never have really understood or even recognized these subtle gifts, or the true extent of the power and advantage it gives in social circles.

Briliantly said!

[Caredverymuch]

Here is something that a psychiatrist called Roger Lewin wrote in his blog about BPDs.

"No good deed goes unpunished." There is a related Chinese, saying “Why do you hate me? I never tried to help you.” What both these peculiar dicta present is the truth that when we seek to help, when we make ourselves available, we volunteer not just as love objects but also as hate objects. We put ourselves in the way of hurt.

We present ourselves as people on whom borderline patients can take vengeance, people with whom the patient can enact the roles of the ones who hurt them, people whose naive optimism and hopefulness about life patients can not only dent but shatter and grind under foot.

We become threats and promises all mixed up together, just the sort of thing that can really mix a person up, if not drive that person crazy. It is not a safe occupation treating borderline patients, because it is hard to know how to defend yourself, the therapist, enough, without defending yourself too much."

Freedom33,  Your insight on this thread is stupendous and I am going to circle back and comment on a few next.

The thing about therapeutic statements like this is that the therapist has a choice. An informed choice. To end treatment or suspend treatment if agreements with their BPD clients are not upheld. The uninformed partner of pBPDs , which is generally the case, does not realistically have that same choice. Until they are hooked in so deep and then of course we all know the damage. Or we would not be here. The end result risks being the same, regardless, to anyone who offers themselves in either role, to a pBPD. 

I've read a great deal about the therapeutic  r/s bc, ironically, I am a healthcare professional as well and knew zero about BPD to this degree.  Additionally, I do realize that most therapist can easily identify the    much earlier than a r/s partner could. That said, it's very interesting indeed how the therapist must approach treatment with this client. Recognizing which schema the client is in when they come to sessions as well as not allowing any boundary crossing.

One area that left me intrigued is the often realization that many pBPD will assume the detached protector schema so well in therapy that they appear to be doing all that the therapist asks; readings, application of mechanisms, etc. Yet, they are appeasing the therapist and really doing none of that.  The skilled therapist must constantly be assessing the schema of the client, and respond accordingly to that mode.  While approaching the treatment goals in a way that does not threaten.

These patients truly are a paradox of complexities. Incredibly convincing as well. Incredibly.

[Caredverymuch]

I was expected to hold the pain and handle the hatred aspects with total calm equanimity and acceptance. She was unable to accept her own emotions, why was I forced to become responsible?

Being an empath is confusing enough. Living with somebody who is constantly projecting, gaslighting, and saying all kinds of up and down just makes life total hell for an empath.

Hell and emotional demise.

Do BPDs deliberately prey on empaths?

No.

I unequivocally agree with this.

Us empathic types respond to their energy ; the vivaciousness and brightness of the positive side. Even if the core source of that power is tainted, the expression and liveness is amazing.

It feels like an energetic match ; an empaths dream, finding a person who GROKS at a non-verbal, emotional level.

It feels like heaven. Like pure incredible peaceful wordless heaven. The connection is nirvana at this stage.  Still gives me chills to recall. Where the mistaken soulmate statements originate from.



The sad truth comes out eventually that it isn't a mutual understanding. In truth, they are two completely alien perspectives about life, communication and love.



In that the Empath knows how to give and receive love. Isn't threatened one bit by any of that. In fact is quite confident and at home in that place.  This is the gravy train right here of good communication, incredible emotional chemistry as well as earth quaking physical chemistry full of wordless communication. The pBPD is not cognizant or  mutual in any of this though. It's pure idealized fantasy.

I will never hold to the idea that BPDs are out there preying on anybody, let alone empaths.

BPDs don't, for the most part, know what it is they are doing. As an empath, WE KNOW THAT. 



This deserves applause it is so accurate.

And as empowered empaths, we drew a line recognizing that in order to love someone, one must first have something to give.

And in relationship to a BPD, we give everything to the point of energetic exhaustion and depletion.



Complete  and total preneurosis to the empath at this point. Depletion resulting in bewildered emotional exhaustion combined with tremendous unconscionable anxiety. Which frustrates and confuses the empath while chipping wildly at their well intended, genuine, and wholly caring emotional core

It's kryptonite to our empathic abilities ; and then once we lose our own self in false-service, there is nothing to give. The BPD goes bonkers b/c they are no longer receiving the validation, recognition, appreciation, and everything from the empath.

And then they repeatedly devalue, hard and cruelly, the empath.

And the empath dies inside because the ability to recharge, center and integrate confusing emotional experiences demands and requires solitude, self-nurturing, and an absence of emotional and life chaos.

That never happens with a BPD in the picture.

NEVER CAN THIS HAPPEN WITH THE BPD IN THE PICTURE. They absolutely annihilate any attempt at a boundary around this very necessary recentering place. Relentlessly, in such need based manipulations that the empath is approaching core hallow by now.  Emotionally depleted and debilitated while the splitting ensues,  the empath starts feel they are losing their mind. Acts that show their emotional state disintegrating such as crying in public, not sleeping, not eating, feeling entirely threatened by the ever changing emotional roller coaster with no rip cord in this incredibly and all consuming r/s.



It is impossible. Withdrawing from a BPD to self-nurture is taken personally by the BPD as if they are a bad person and they are being abandoned. What a trigger.



But the moment the pBPD  begins to feel this self imposed engulfement, they get to walk away. And they do

The empath is eventually left with one choice ; to be alive.

Because once that choice-point has been reached, the empath has already died and is recognizing how much light, life and love has disappeared.



Profoundly true.

This takes an empath further than mere empathic talents ; it awakens us to a whole new depth of awareness, sensitivity and ability to trust in our self, intuitions, and what we see and feel about people.

It is odd for me at this point. When going in public, I feel people and their moods so easily. Spotting trouble is very simple.

Indeed. This ability never goes away.  We just temper it as we go on and become more self aware.

And knowing that the source of my joy and contentment in life is based on my own emotional health and stability ; making the choice to step away from dramatic people and energies has been liberating and empowering.



Here is the wonderful gift.  Exactly where I am as well and where I will stay.

After all, I do not need to help anyone. I trust in their ability to learn and discover their own truth.

I am responsible for my domain, this self that I am, and others can rule who they are, their body, mind and spirit, as they feel appropriate.

Without going through the things with my xBPD, I'd never have really understood or even recognized these subtle gifts, or the true extent of the power and advantage it gives in social circles.



Artisan, your analysis is ridiculously brilliant.  This is EXACTLY the Empth/BPD r/s course. To the tee. You have left nothing unsaid.  You described my entire r/s with the bBPD.  This should be published.

Thank you.

[goldylamont]

I'm a bit confused by the use of the term "empathy" here.

How can one be empathetic with a person who is being abusive towards you? In my book this means you are not able to put yourself in this person's shoes. Most of us stayed with a person who pushed us away. Is that really empathetic?

The kind of "empathy" we nons provide is saying "I know how you feel, but your feelings are wrong and I will stay with you no matter what, because I know that somewhere deep inside you are another, better person.".

Personally, I used to think of that as empathy, but now I think I was wrong. I was wrong in ignoring her feelings and thinking she was someone she was not.

I end up with people who invade my privacy because I am (or was) no good at saying no, so I ended up in "empathetic" conversations instead. I have found that true empathy (this sounds very grand, I know) comes from letting people be themselves, even if they turn out to be ___holes. And if they turn out to be, it's all their problem.

i was waiting for someone to point this out. i wonder how correct we are in assuming that we are more empathic than anyone else?

below is a definition of empathy:

em•pa•thy (ˈɛm pə θi)

1. the identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, etc., of another.

2. the imaginative ascribing to an object of one's feelings or attitudes.

i feel that many participants of this post are using the first definition of empathy above--being able to understand the feelings and thoughts of another. i however, feel that only the 2nd definition applies in regards to being in a r/s with a pwBPD--we are imaginatively (and incorrectly) ascribing our *own* feelings and attitudes onto someone else.

if you were fooled by the idealization/mirroring phase, some of this could have been empathy since some of these emotions could actually have been felt and 'real' for the pwBPD. but as soon as you got confused about being devalued or if you were surprised when this person raged or dropped the relationship--you weren't being empathetic by definition #1. you were stuck on def. #2, projecting your own ideals onto a person that did not feel the same way you did, or think the same way you do.

i sometimes feel i'm empathetic, but i think my r/s with a person showing personality disordered traits shows a lack of empathy on my part (using definition #1). i think many here are equating empathy with being nice, or understanding; perhaps to having low or no boundaries and willing to overlook your own needs to try to appease someone else. i just don't see this as empathy.

here are a few times i feel like i was empathetic with my ex (def #1)--meaning where what i was feeling was in line with what she was feeling:

** there were good times, even beyond mirroring i believe, when i felt like she felt good as did i and i picked up on this. i think there was mutual empathy here.

** when i broke up with her over the phone--in this case i feel like my empathy was spot on. i did *not* want to end the r/s! but instead of listening to this deep desire to be with her, i listened to my gut. and my gut told me this woman was going to cheat on me or try to destroy me if we stayed together. i could feel this potential in her and acted on it accordingly, despite what i wanted to happen. and i think i made the right call.

** when she tried to reconnect after months of NC and i ignored her--this was still before i knew about BPD. but it didn't feel right. again, what i wanted was to have some kind of closure, or at least establish some type of respectful friendship. instead i felt that she was contacting me solely for the reason that she had just broke up with bf #2 (or 3? 4?) and wanted to use me as an emotional doormat. so i ignored everything but her initial call. later, i confirmed exactly how i felt in this moment (that she had just broken up, and that she was still scorching the earth in her path). i feel like i understood her and her motives more in this moment than i did in the past where i would have been confused by such outwardly 'niceness' coming from her.

to me empathy isn't being open and nice when you have no idea how the other person actually feels or how they will behave with you. if i had more empathy during our r/s i would have not trusted my ex at all (this is how she felt towards me), but i did trust her--not empathy. i would have been incredibly jealous and would have hated her deeply... .but i didn't feel this way--but she did. so it wasn't empathy at this point. and in a way it's good i wasn't empathetic towards the disorder as it wouldn't be healthy towards me.

just food for thought... .playing the devil's advocate 

[trappedbadly]

wonderful guys... .

i join the club. i too feel im an empathetic person which attracted my BPD colleague.

i recently broke apart from him. when i look back i can clearly relate a similar exp. it was my empathy to others that attracted him to me.

n i was very much attracted to the child in him. i was desperate to comfort the child within no matter what. he used to say i was the only one who could lessen his suffering n he felt divinely connected to me.

when i started to take care of the child its needs multiplied exponentially , the more i gave the more unquenchable d thirst became. problems erupted once i couldnt meet the needs.

now i realised this unhealthy nature n broke apart but he s not ready to leave me. he s pursuing me badly. he s not able to accept the fact dat he wouldnt be getting those comforts.

[Caredverymuch]

My definition of a sensitive person is the same as being a HSP and a empath. Narcissists and Borderlines are the opposite. NOT sensitive.

In case I misunderstand you, can you explain what you mean with sensitive men?

--

Being an empath is both a gift and a curse.[/quote]
huhhuh , I agree. It is both a gift and a curse. Bc we empaths can not stop what we innately feel. Our ability to walk into a room and feel exactly what others are feeling. And often, we know why. We are that naturally gifted.  We are HSP.

The confusion happens when we meet partners like our pBPD's.  I actually read my pBPD the moment I met him. I could feel his pain. Didn't even know his name.  Everyone else in the room thought he was this incredibly gentle kind admirably sensitive and approachable man. They saw nothing else. He wowed them.

I felt the waif, the abandoned child. I felt him immediately. My mistake was that I bonded to what I believed was another HSP. Not knowing anything about BPD. Who are indeed HIGHLY sensitive ppl. Just not at all in the same way as the empath.

I love this type of sensitivity in a man.  The ability to listen without words, to sit by a fire and say little. To be at peace together.  Take long rides and enjoy nature, good music and feel much, then talk it out over a glass of wine and have incredible emotional integration and compassionate satisfaction together. To talk about feelings. To be open. To be real. To be feel safe and welcome in that.

But, I desire it without a disorder.

My expBPD dispelled my trust in much of that moving forward.

NPD are easy for me to identify. I was married to one. I know a NPD the moment I meet them.  And I loved your link to such a humorous comparison.

I got VERY fooled by the BPD. Wow, just fooled and taken down beyond belief. Obviously, or I would not be here.  There was just no way I knew what was to come as I enjoyed all those things as well as falling deeply in love with such a sensitive man. 

Who ultimately is quite disordered.

And more emotionally abusive then the NPD ever was to me on any given day. Bc the NPD never showed a hint of sensitivity. What you see what was you got there.

The BPD was the true falsehood.

i hope that clarifies what I meant in my initial post.

[Caredverymuch]

Thank you, great insight!

[Caredverymuch]

The kind of "empathy" we nons provide is saying "I know how you feel, but your feelings are wrong and I will stay with you no matter what, because I know that somewhere deep inside you are another, better person.".

Personally, I used to think of that as empathy, but now I think I was wrong. I was wrong in ignoring her feelings and thinking she was someone she was not.

I did this too. I realized the pushing away behaviors were not right even though I did not understand them, but I allowed myself to continue to focus on only believing in the better person underneath, whom I fell deeply n love with.  Unwilling or unable to realize that even though I could not understand his (very disordered rapidly cycling feelings)  this was who he indeed was. I wanted the man I loved to stay alive. I wanted the man I fell in love with to come back. As if he were half asleep.  Even though I believe I did all that I did in true empathy, bc he was such a waif and so needy, the real act of empathy is in realization. As much as it hurts.

[Caredverymuch]

Thank you for such great insight on this thread. I appreciate everyone's feedback 

[freedom33]

to me empathy isn't being open and nice when you have no idea how the other person actually feels or how they will behave with you.

Spot on. The image of the fool comes to mind here, open and naive (it is the first card in the Tarot deck). On the positive side the opposite of the fool is the wise man and to get there one has to start the journey. Most of us here took the first step in that path having played the fool card.

if i had more empathy during our r/s i would have not trusted my ex at all (this is how she felt towards me), but i did trust her--not empathy. i would have been incredibly jealous and would have hated her deeply.

I actually did feel jealous and anger almost from month 2 and could never trusted her. I felt her ambivalency, uncertainty, intensity and inner turmoil from the 2nd time we slept together. Just as she was lying there next to me. But as I couldn't explain it or pinpoint exactly why, I discarded my feelings and thought there was something wrong with me.

The reason I couldn't explain what was happening now I think was because there was projective identification at work. This is the most common defence mechanisms with borderlines that therapists struggle all the time and they are only seeing them an hour a week. Imagine the effect on us... .She was feeling those feelings but never expressing and only projecting e.g.her jealousy and anger to me and I was picking these things up and attributing them to me and in some cases acting them out for her.

[Blimblam]

Yeah when I read how intense they made projective identification seem

In the texts I read aimed at therapists it just made me think and they aren't even sleeping with them.

The text pretty much in "scientific" terms made is sound like magical brainwashing techniques using unconcious emotional triggers by inception.  

Caredverymuch,

What is hsp?

And I agree the BPD waif is in my opinion an epic tragedy.  How a person so amazing can hate themselves so much.  Like if only her family wasn't so messed up she actually be a lot like me. 

[Caredverymuch]

Yeah when I read how intense they made projective identification seem

In the texts I read aimed at therapists it just made me think and they aren't even sleeping with them.

The text pretty much in "scientific" terms made is sound like magical brainwashing techniques using unconcious emotional triggers by inception.  

Caredverymuch,

What is hsp?

And I agree the BPD waif is in my opinion an epic tragedy.  How a person so amazing can hate themselves so much.  Like if only her family wasn't so messed up she actually be a lot like me. 

Hi Blim,

Great topic! Your insight is always valued to these discussions.  I have to tell you all that this thread, especially and for some reason, is really making utter sense to how I ended up sticking around in the r/s for so long.  Bc there were many times I tried to stop the r/s from progressing further.

Like so much we explore here, the conversation about how an emapth gets so caught up in the carnage is spot on.  The emotional exhaustion is something I could not fully put into words until I read Artisan's analogy here.  Which truly put everything into words. Words or understanding that I could not find, going through the depletion, and abuse.

The topic of empathy left me thinking as well.  I agree that projection got in the way of much there. 

There were definitely moments I could feel the ambivalence, could feel the real emotion under the waif demeanor.

Could feel he wanted to pull away or wasn't really feeling what he said.

Those were moments I would often put to words what I felt.  Such as " I don't think you feel the same way that I do right now. It seems you don't want to be here tonight, perhaps you need some time to yourself. I respect that."  Which I did in and was said in truth to him.  We all need space.

To be met with such highly charged opposite response, which was really was clinging. 

The thing is empaths tend to know what we are feeling in a moment is correct, but the BPD reacts so strongly and convincingly to convince us we are "wrong", and we disregarded our inner knowing in those moments.  Bc we wanted to believe we truly are wrong about him/her not wanting the same.

And the BPD worked double time to convince us we are SO wrong about feeling anything remotely negative about them or to allow any healthy distance to form between them. Ever.

And then, they pull the rug right out, and abandon US. 

HSP=Highly Sensitive Person.

[Blimblam]

Ah cared I see

I feel like I was a highly empathetic person but now I am self absorbed. Durring the idealization phase I bonded to her at multiple levels then one day she began trying to devalue me. The push pull.  Was just madness from this point on I was in denial. Struggling to keep my head above water and not engage in her drama.  She eventually dragged me into the drama and it was and it was like falling into an endless hole.

The disorder does not care.

That's the thing though durring the devaluing they need you to feel the pain of the terrified child or be the punitive parent angry child.  It took her about a week to drag me into that. It was either that or abandon her right there.  My gut told me she wanted me to dump her an my heart told me she loves me.

That's what's so confusing because what they feel is so conflicted between what they say even midsentace when I would speak. 

I should have trusted my gut.  Oh well

[freedom33]

The thing is empaths tend to know what we are feeling in a moment is correct, but the BPD reacts so strongly and convincingly to convince us we are "wrong", and we disregarded our inner knowing in those moments.  Bc we wanted to believe we truly are wrong about him/her not wanting the same.

Empaths are very sensitive people like borderlines and I am not so sure it they know or knew what they felt before they met the borderline. The difference that I see is that one (the BPD) is active i.e. projecting feelings and the other (the empath) is passive not being in touch with their own feelings and receiving others feelings e.g. the borderlines, and trying to make sense what is his and what is not.  

Many of us had feelings that were unhealthily enmeshed with other peoples feelings even before we met the borderline. My ex before the BPD was like me soft boundaries... .A person with soft boundaries merges with other people's boundaries. Someone with a soft boundary is easily manipulated. I was taking care of her and she was taking care of me but no one was taking care of itself.  We sort of became one with this woman and went down a swamp of intertia and boredom... .And after I broke up I met the borderline... .I believe that borderlines have what is called spongy boundaries - now a person with spongy boundaries is like a combination of having soft and rigid boundaries. People with spongy boundaries are unsure what to let in and what to keep out. It comes from their disorganised attachment patterns. Push and pull.

Anyway it takes a borderline bulldozer not just to nudge but to break the empath's soft boundaries so some of us can eventually wake up to the fact that boundaries do exist and we have to enforce them depending on what we need. This will help us move towards flexible boundaries where the person decides what to let in and what to keep out, becomes resistant to emotional contagion and manipulation, and is difficult to exploit. Amen to that!

[borderdude]

I am very emphatic , learned it because I need to gauge my mothers feelings so I knew where I had her, in my abusive childhood.

In my case , I used my abilities to detected a lot of red lights before I came to serious with my BPD girlfriend, she still managed to get me feeling for her, but I am over this, feeling very sorry for her , and a pita that I should met a kind of person, want to fix her.

[Moselle]

A person with soft boundaries merges with other people's boundaries. Someone with a soft boundary is easily manipulated. I was taking care of her and she was taking care of me but no one was taking care of itself.  We sort of became one with this woman and went down a swamp of intertia and boredom... .And after I broke up I met the borderline... .I believe that borderlines have what is called spongy boundaries - now a person with spongy boundaries is like a combination of having soft and rigid boundaries. People with spongy boundaries are unsure what to let in and what to keep out. It comes from their disorganised attachment patterns. Push and pull.

Anyway it takes a borderline bulldozer not just to nudge but to break the empath's soft boundaries so some of us can eventually wake up to the fact that boundaries do exist and we have to enforce them depending on what we need. This will help us move towards flexible boundaries where the person decides what to let in and what to keep out, becomes resistant to emotional contagion and manipulation, and is difficult to exploit. Amen to that!

This is about the best info describing boundaries that I have seen. Thanks for sharing

I actually had some very rigid boundaries before I was married. When I married my W, I deliberately relaxed them. I figured, I trust this person, so why not. I woke up to no boundaries 14 years later. I feel like Rip van Winkel. It was done so slowly so as to be imperceptible

[Artisan]

Something about empaths for us all to understand ;

Even though we may be feeling something ... .that does not mean the interpretation of what is being felt is anywhere near accurate.

Only the feeling itself is true.

The why, how and mind-stuff contains truth and false data.

So yes ; an empath feels intense, deep, soul-caressing love with a BPD ; it is the empathic love being felt. The experience of love awakens within.

The projection that this other person could love us in these ways was ... .an ideal.

Underlying all of that feeling of love is the truth of being able to nurture and awaken that relationship dynamic within our own self.

The BPD wakes us up to the fact that love was searched for outside, trying to match ideals and structures learned in childhood and from society, religion and other people.

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

[Moselle]

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

OK, how do you do this? I'm not managing very well with this step.

[borderdude]

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

OK, how do you do this? I'm not managing very well with this step.

Everything you experience is another part of yourself.

Love means , that your partner is showing you a new page of yourself. You love yourself but  project that love towards your partner, she/he becomes referenced with that part of you she/he assigned.


Therefore if you do not love yourself , you cannot give ... .etc

Everything is you ... .(not that romantic I know)

[Moselle]

When we know love is not found outside, there is only one place for the empath to go ; within.

It's scary. It's also liberating and empowering.

So we shouldn't focus on loving someone else, we should love ourselves? And then when we have enough love, it fills our need. Then if and only if, there's some left over for our partner, we can invest it in them?

To quote a famous author   "Love thy neighbour as thyself". This implies your point exactly.

Aha!

[Artisan]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

What I have noticed is that in order to love somebody else, and in that love give my best, self-nurturing is essential.

That's a hard thing to do for empathic types.

[borderdude]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

What I have noticed is that in order to love somebody else, and in that love give my best, self-nurturing is essential.

That's a hard thing to do for empathic types.

How can you give something you don't have?

[hergestridge]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

I think it's more interesting if it's true or not. Can a description of reality be pushed aside as "useless"?

I think there's something to it.

[borderdude]

I'm a bit confused by the use of the term "empathy" here.


The kind of "empathy" we nons provide is saying "I know how you feel, but your feelings are wrong and I will stay with you no matter what, because I know that somewhere deep inside you are another, better person.".

Personally, I used to think of that as empathy, but now I think I was wrong. I was wrong in ignoring her feelings and thinking she was someone she was not.

That is really a strong statement of love , it starts with acknowledge the person just like he/she is in the moment , must be brave to see the bad parts too.

[Moselle]

I think I've spent my married life giving what I don't have. Every time I felt some love, I put it into the black hole of my wife's neediness, pretending I was doing something noble.

But I was back on empty, and not much good love wise to anyone, including my children.

I'm noticing many things in BPD relationships are counterintuitive, and I believe this is one of them. Let them learn to love themselves, instead of us trying to love for them first and then having the scraps for ourselves.

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

[Caredverymuch]

I think I've spent my married life giving what I don't have. Every time I felt some love, I put it into the black hole of my wife's neediness, pretending I was doing something noble.

But I was back on empty, and not much good love wise to anyone, including my children.

I'm noticing many things in BPD relationships are counterintuitive, and I believe this is one of them. Let them learn to love themselves, instead of us trying to love for them first and then having the scraps for ourselves.

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

Exactly. And where so many of us empath went far off course.

Is this perhaps why they tend to do " better" if you will with NPD partners?

[Moselle]

Is this perhaps why they tend to do " better" if you will with NPD partners?

Do they really? I can be Narcissistic if it helps

[hergestridge]

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

That would would make sense in a normal relationship, but how does a pwBPD handle transition?

I made it clear to my wife that her feelings had ruled my life a bit too much, that it was not necesarily her fault, but it had to change because it wasn't exactly healthy.

She agreed, but never forgave me because somewhere deep inside she thought I loved her less because I wasn't her little puppet any more. It came up time and time again in our endless arguments.

[goldylamont]

I think I've spent my married life giving what I don't have. Every time I felt some love, I put it into the black hole of my wife's neediness, pretending I was doing something noble.

But I was back on empty, and not much good love wise to anyone, including my children.

I'm noticing many things in BPD relationships are counterintuitive, and I believe this is one of them. Let them learn to love themselves, instead of us trying to love for them first and then having the scraps for ourselves.

I'm not saying go Narcissistic on them, but balance the equation a bit. This makes sense to me.

Exactly. And where so many of us empath went far off course.

Is this perhaps why they tend to do " better" if you will with NPD partners?

i think the attraction to an NPD partner would be the same as why anyone could be attracted to this type of personality--the N has a well crafted and highly rigid sense of self. it's constructed to hide their weaknesses and may not hold true, but still an N-type person appears to know who they are, what they like, what they want to do and f-u attitude if you're not on the same page. this appearance of embodying strong character is one of the foundations of attractiveness to people in general, not just pwBPD. but a pwBPD *needs* to attach to something solid as they themselves don't have a solid core, so they may perhaps be more susceptible to being seduced by an N-type because of their thirst to merge with the other (lack of boundaries).

and yes, i do think it would bode well for an "empath" (i'm only using the term as it's referred in this thread) to take on more narcissistic traits to balance out the people-pleasing aspect, conflict avoiding side. we all need a bit of narcissism to stay healthy without it becoming a full on PD.

[goldylamont]

The phrase that a person must love themself in order to love another is, in my opinion, total junk. One of the most useless concepts ever communicated.

you know i can kind of understand where you are coming from here. i disagree but i feel like cliche's can sometimes become so, well, cliche that it starts to lose it's meaning. Artisan, try reversing the roles and see if the statement makes more sense. What i mean is, in my case i do think i have a lot of genuine self-love and respect. And although i definitely had boundaries pushed and broken during my r/s i think i held onto most of my self respect. So, in my case it wasn't that i needed to love myself more to fix the situation--regardless of whatever self-love or boundaries i had or could have had, the r/s was doomed from the start because my SO didn't love *herself*.

Perhaps it may make more sense in this context--do you think your r/s with your ex would have been more positive if at her core she loved herself? wasn't jealous all the time because of her low self esteem... .didn't think you would abandon her because she was unloveable... .didn't have the desperate need to be in someone/anyone's arms because she couldn't stand to be alone by herself?

i wrote a song about my ex years before we ever became an item... .how true it was: "if you don't love yourself, how can i love you more? men work for her affections, but, she don't think she's worth the chore."

What I have noticed is that in order to love somebody else, and in that love give my best, self-nurturing is essential.

That's a hard thing to do for empathic types.

i have a different view of what empathic types are, which is decoupled from the tendency some people have to put others' feelings and needs above their own << i think better descriptions for this behavior is perhaps codependence or low self-esteem. i don't think empathic types are inherently codependent or put the needs of others above their own. many empathic people i know have strong boundaries and are able to self-sacrifice by their own volition because they are aware of themselves. they can sustain openness and can give freely because they know how to protect themselves. warriors with heart. they know how and when to open a can of ass-whoop   for a good cause of for someone in need

[Loveofhislife]

i have a different view of what empathic types are, which is decoupled from the tendency some people have to put others' feelings and needs above their own << i think better descriptions for this behavior is perhaps codependence or low self-esteem. i don't think empathic types are inherently codependent or put the needs of others above their own. many empathic people i know have strong boundaries and are able to self-sacrifice by their own volition because they are aware of themselves. they can sustain openness and can give freely because they know how to protect themselves. warriors with heart. they know how and when to open a can of ass-whoop   for a good cause of for someone in need

My new favorite quote. I am a warrior of the heart. He fell in love with my heart and my child but abhors the warrior. And I need to develop my can of whoop-ass 

[Moselle]

I think better descriptions for this behavior is perhaps codependence or low self-esteem. i don't think empathic types are inherently codependent or put the needs of others above their own. many empathic people i know have strong boundaries and are able to self-sacrifice by their own volition because they are aware of themselves. they can sustain openness and can give freely because they know how to protect themselves. warriors with heart. they know how and when to open a can of ass-whoop   for a good cause of for someone in need

Ass-whoop aside , my W responds much better when I turn on the Narcissist. I don't know if it's because she respects that, or understands the language. She kicks up a token fuss, when I do it, but the results are better, she calms down quicker.

The co-dependence and low self esteem? I agree

[fred6]

an N-type person appears to know who they are, what they like, what they want to do and f-u attitude if you're not on the same page. this appearance of embodying strong character is one of the foundations of attractiveness to people in general, not just pwBPD.

Can a pwBPD have N traits. My ex always appeared to know who she was, what she liked, and what she wanted to do and if me or anyone else wasn't on the same page, she had the FU attitude? The funny thing was that she changed who she was consistently, she changed what she liked, and she never did many of the things that she claimed she liked doing. I mean she always liked(or seemed obsessed)certain things, like tattoos and piercings, things I care nothing about. But she seemed to get interested in things(sewing, gardening) according to what other people liked and then never followed up on them or did them.

[Loveofhislife]

Fred, I'm certain my exbfBPD had N characteristics; I have written here before that he was very high functioning and strategic; thus he had SOME ability to control his emotions. The fact that he told me weeks before that he was stressed about finances, so he was going to go "dark" tells me he had more capacity than a lot of the pwBPD I read about on these threads.

[tim_tom]

what exactly is an empath?

Up above someone said people pleaser and conflict avoider... Sounds like me

[goldylamont]

Ass-whoop aside , my W responds much better when I turn on the Narcissist. I don't know if it's because she respects that, or understands the language. She kicks up a token fuss, when I do it, but the results are better, she calms down quicker.

i can relate to this. and probably a bit of narcissism to counteract our other behaviors can in a way protect us... .we feel a little more in control and less used. but for me i think this was just a quick-fix, unsustainable. for example, from what i can gather (although i didn't put this together when i was with her) my ex will sometimes test her SO's by being flirty with other men or distant in public situations. i think she may have tried this stuff out on me maybe once or twice, but that was it. when she was with the guy after me, she was telling me about how she was just being nice and talking to someone while they were out at a bar and that replacement bf got jealous for no reason and argumentative. she lists this as the reason for breaking up with him--conveniently she ends up sleeping with the other guy she claims she was not flirting with at the time... .go figure. but i remember maybe one time she tried this on me early in the r/s, started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all. because by the time she turned around from playing her game i'd left her alone and she would find me with a new group of people chatting it up with other cute women. touche BPD, touche. she learned quickly that if she wanted to play the jealousy game with me that ultimately she'd have to take a bit of her own medicine, because i wasn't clinging or complaining. so her games stopped because i called her bluff without ever saying a word.

but, thing is, although i'm capable of holding my own like this... .it's just not 'me'. i can do it, but i don't like doing it. it's not my truth or my desire. so being narcissistic in this way did keep her in her place, but it was neither sustainable nor enjoyable for me. and it was indicative of deeper issues.

[Caredverymuch]

an N-type person appears to know who they are, what they like, what they want to do and f-u attitude if you're not on the same page. this appearance of embodying strong character is one of the foundations of attractiveness to people in general, not just pwBPD.

Can a pwBPD have N traits. My ex always appeared to know who she was, what she liked, and what she wanted to do and if me or anyone else wasn't on the same page, she had the FU attitude? The funny thing was that she changed who she was consistently, she changed what she liked, and she never did many of the things that she claimed she liked doing. I mean she always liked(or seemed obsessed)certain things, like tattoos and piercings, things I care nothing about. But she seemed to get interested in things(sewing, gardening) according to what other people liked and then never followed up on them or did them.

Yes, Fred6 they most certainly can. My ex was a waif pBPD. Despite that, he had N traits for sure. Which really shocked me.  It's all  part of  the cluster B spectrum.

[fred6]

started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all.

Mine always did this to me. Not really flirting with people. She knows a lot of people and when she would see someone she knew, she would just stand there talking to them, just leaving me standing there like a schmuck. She didn't introduce me or really even acknowledge me. So embarrassing and disrespectful. She would sometimes stand there and talk to them for 20-30 minutes. After a few minutes I would just start wondering around the immediate vicinity looking at merchandise or playing on my phone. So disrespectful... .

[freedom33]

but i remember maybe one time she tried this on me early in the r/s, started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all. because by the time she turned around from playing her game i'd left her alone and she would find me with a new group of people chatting it up with other cute women. touche BPD, touche. she learned quickly that if she wanted to play the jealousy game with me that ultimately she'd have to take a bit of her own medicine, because i wasn't clinging or complaining. so her games stopped because i called her bluff without ever saying a word.

Nice one Goldy. She pulled similar tricks on me on a few times. This is when I realised that she doesn't really care and that it is all a game for her. Most of the time I could control myself and play it well, but not all the times. I remember an incident at the start that I just had to hold her responsible for her actions. I didn't know BPD and in a way this incident showed me who she really was.

We were at one of her friend's event. I didn't know anyone and she was distant and ignoring me. I was ok with it. Suddenly she wanted to chat to this random dude - a friend of a friend that she didn't even knew. So we got into the pub just for her to chat to this guy. Anyway she started flirting with him and the guy was trying to figure out if we were together. Asked once in an indirect way 'so what's up with the two of you? are you in a band (music) together?' she dodged the question. When asked a second time after a few mins directly  'so are you guys together?' she told the guy 'we just met'. I just couldn't believe my ears... .I held me cool, then I connected with the guy and after a few mins I told him that I want to go out for a smoke and if he wanted to follow so we left her in the pub alone. She was lost by herself so she called her dad while I had a good chat with the guy. He was going through a rough divorce and I recommended a good therapist and called me a few times after that.

At any rate afterwards - SHE WAS ANGRY with me for leaving her alone in the pub - I did confront her. I am like 'why did you say to him that we just met?' She denied, gaslighted, used every tactic in the book.  If I 'd known at the time she was who she was I wouldn't have confronted her. But I wouldn't have played her game either. I am good looking guy and can be charming and funny with people so I can go and chat to others and do some damage by playing this game but I just don't see the point of playing games like this. That's not the point of being in a rs with someone. That beats the purpose.

If anyone pulls sht like that again to me, I plan to simply keep my cool, be respectful and then walk away. The person is showing you who they are right there, no point complaining or playing games (unless you want to lose in the end... .). Walk away. A little bonus - I found out a couple of months ago that after that incident she started chatting to this guy in facebook complaining about me and how crazy and jealous and paranoid I was and portraying herself as the victim and saying things like 'relationships are tough aren't they Guy X?'. He was going through divorce and she was throwing her hooks in him.

Funilly enough as I am typing this I remembered something important - I have this internal voice, you know the good angel... ., whispering stuff once every few years or something - just on important occasions. After that argument this internal voice said 'now is the time to end it'. I didn't follow it. I would have been out in month 3-4 just before the hater phase relatively unscathed.

[fred6]

Funilly enough as I am typing this I remembered something important - I have this internal voice, you know the good angel... ., whispering stuff once every few years or something - just on important occasions. After that argument this internal voice said 'now is the time to end it'. I didn't follow it. I would have been out in month 3-4 just before the hater phase relatively unscathed.

That's what happened to me. Back in late February or early March she seemed to be kind of distant and kept withhold sex and intimacy. After about 2 weeks of this, I had a talk with her after she told me yet again, "not tonight" rather coldly. While laying in the bed with her, I asked her if she was mad at me or if I had done something to cause her to withdraw from me. She said no. I told her that "it feels like you don't want me here or to be in this relationship anymore". She then proceeded to reroute the conversation to trivial things that I was not doing. After about 30 minute of this round and round discussion.  I told her that all I wanted was for her to show me some love and attention sometimes and be proud of me. By this time I was getting a little emotional and my eyes were tearing up because she was so emotionless about my feelings. She said nothing, got up and proceeded to go to her 6 yo daughters room and slept in her daughters child sized bed with her. I was so upset by her just leaving like that and saying nothing. That night, I didn't sleep at all and had all but decided to end the relationship while thinking about it all night.

Just so happens that I had the next day off work and was just kind of laying in bed. She came in and got ready for work. Right before she left for work, she came and sat on the bed next to me, put her hand on my shoulder and said, "I do love you and want you here with me, and I do want to be with you." I didn't say anything, but it did make me feel better about things. I re thought everything that day and decided that since she told me that, that I would stay with her and stick it out through thick and thin.  Even though she has never initiated sex with me, the next night she started spooning with me, saying, "keep me warm". So I finally got some sex and thought that she was coming around to getting closer to me. That is the closest that she ever came to initiating sex. At that point, I decided to buy her an engagement ring in the summer, even though she has always told me that she would never in her life get married, but she would be in a very long term committed relationship. And I knew that she might turn down my proposal, but she was going to get to keep the ring anyhow as my sign of commitment to her.

Now, all within 2 months from telling me this, she quit her job, quit Zoloft cold turkey, split black all of her long time friends from work, kicked her son out, cheated on me, lied to me about it for a month, broke up with me, told me to find a home, treated me like dogsh!t, rubbed her new man in my face while I was waiting for an apartment, and painted her son white again and took him back in along with homeless friend his homeless friend. She knew nothing about the ring or proposal, no one did. So I know that didn't have anything to do with it.

Hell, I wish she just would have ended it when I had that conversation with her back in early March. I would be 6 more months removed. And I also would have about $3000-4000 more in the bank, due to her being unemployed for 5 months and me taking her on a 3 day prepaid weekend to New Orleans the weekend after she told me she was unhappy. Which by the way was ruined by all of this and she never even thanked me for. I had the ring picked out, but I hadn't bought it yet.


So yes, I can relate to having a gut instinct to leave. Looking back, I probably should have!

[tim_tom]

So yes, I can relate to having a gut instinct to leave. Looking back, I probably should have!

Feel the same. Mine started pinging like 10 months ago, would've saved me a lot of money and heartbreak. BUT, how do you know if your gut is right at the time? When you are with the right girl, your gut will never ever respond like that?

[fred6]

So yes, I can relate to having a gut instinct to leave. Looking back, I probably should have!

Feel the same. Mine started pinging like 10 months ago, would've saved me a lot of money and heartbreak. BUT, how do you know if your gut is right at the time? When you are with the right girl, your gut will never ever respond like that?

Even though I say that I gave my exBPD all of my trust, loyalty, and honesty. In reality I gave all of the trust that I could give to her. Since all of this has happened, I have realized that I am codependent and have an anxious preoccupied attachment style. And while I have never been jealous(until I found out she was porking new supply), let her go out and do her own thing, and spent time away from her. Knowing that I have an anxious-preoccupied attachment style, I know that I'm preoccupied with my relationships and always evaluating the status of the relationship and my so's feelings toward me. Like codepedance, you tend to focus on doing whatever you can to make it work, due to your own insecurities, whatever they may be. I'm not sure that there is anything that I can do about being an anxious-preoccupied. It might just be "who I am". Damn, that "who I am" thing sounds like what my exBPD always told me when I talked to her about her treatment of me, ... .

[goldylamont]

but i remember maybe one time she tried this on me early in the r/s, started ignoring me for no reason and chatting it up with some random guy. it wasn't overt she wasn't coming onto him, but still it felt a little disrespectful. well, i didn't so much as mention anything to her about it. in fact we never had an argument about it at all. because by the time she turned around from playing her game i'd left her alone and she would find me with a new group of people chatting it up with other cute women. touche BPD, touche. she learned quickly that if she wanted to play the jealousy game with me that ultimately she'd have to take a bit of her own medicine, because i wasn't clinging or complaining. so her games stopped because i called her bluff without ever saying a word.

Nice one Goldy. She pulled similar tricks on me on a few times. This is when I realised that she doesn't really care and that it is all a game for her. Most of the time I could control myself and play it well, but not all the times. I remember an incident at the start that I just had to hold her responsible for her actions. I didn't know BPD and in a way this incident showed me who she really was.

We were at one of her friend's event. I didn't know anyone and she was distant and ignoring me. I was ok with it. Suddenly she wanted to chat to this random dude - a friend of a friend that she didn't even knew. So we got into the pub just for her to chat to this guy. Anyway she started flirting with him and the guy was trying to figure out if we were together. Asked once in an indirect way 'so what's up with the two of you? are you in a band (music) together?' she dodged the question. When asked a second time after a few mins directly  'so are you guys together?' she told the guy 'we just met'. I just couldn't believe my ears... .I held me cool, then I connected with the guy and after a few mins I told him that I want to go out for a smoke and if he wanted to follow so we left her in the pub alone. She was lost by herself so she called her dad while I had a good chat with the guy. He was going through a rough divorce and I recommended a good therapist and called me a few times after that.

At any rate afterwards - SHE WAS ANGRY with me for leaving her alone in the pub - I did confront her. I am like 'why did you say to him that we just met?' She denied, gaslighted, used every tactic in the book.  If I 'd known at the time she was who she was I wouldn't have confronted her. But I wouldn't have played her game either. I am good looking guy and can be charming and funny with people so I can go and chat to others and do some damage by playing this game but I just don't see the point of playing games like this. That's not the point of being in a rs with someone. That beats the purpose.

If anyone pulls sht like that again to me, I plan to simply keep my cool, be respectful and then walk away. The person is showing you who they are right there, no point complaining or playing games (unless you want to lose in the end... .). Walk away. A little bonus - I found out a couple of months ago that after that incident she started chatting to this guy in facebook complaining about me and how crazy and jealous and paranoid I was and portraying herself as the victim and saying things like 'relationships are tough aren't they Guy X?'. He was going through divorce and she was throwing her hooks in him.

Funilly enough as I am typing this I remembered something important - I have this internal voice, you know the good angel... ., whispering stuff once every few years or something - just on important occasions. After that argument this internal voice said 'now is the time to end it'. I didn't follow it. I would have been out in month 3-4 just before the hater phase relatively unscathed.

freedom33 everything in this post i can relate to. not just your ex's behavior but i also relate with how you dealt with the situation, which i think was stellar.

what really hit me though is your mentioning of the internal voice. for me this is very real. i now find myself voicing things out sometimes before i am consciously aware of the thoughts that brought it. i think these are gifts. and i think we need to listen to them.

i'm a bit tired now so won't go into detail, but i had almost the exact same inner voice tell me when to end the r/s. i didn't plan to break up with her at all. we were talking on the phone, i hadn't seen her for a few weeks, she was argumentative, and exactly like you said there was just this voice, this force, that said "now is the time to end it". i was calm, we weren't yelling at each other. i just told her i was done. i think it was the best decision in my life. it's odd it was very calm and hard to put my finger on, but it was there. i've talked about it a few times here already. another time was after we broke up. and during this phase i was still ruminating a lot cycling between fantasies of missing her or fantasies of hating her. well, i was off in lala land on one of these 'good' fantasies but didn't realize it. i was stooping down under my stairwell to get a vacuum cleaner, so i grabbed it and when i was pulling it out i stood up too soon and WHACK i hit my head on the stairwell. and in this instant, that voice said "she is not good". that was it. but i understood. she was not the good person i was daydreaming about. this really truly helped me. we have to always listen to our intuitions they are a gift.

[borderdude]

I Am empatic , I learned this in my childhood, to read my mother, so I could avoid abuse.

I am not a people pleaser, I set oundaries, I might also use my empatic skills to hurt people if they ask for it. It is all about reading energy. You might feeling with them , but that is something else.