Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
April 13, 2021, 05:26:33 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Harri, Once Removed
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, I Am Redeemed, Mutt, Turkish
  Help!   Groups   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Depression = 72% of members
Take the test, read about the implications, and check out the remedies.
111
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do any Non's emerge from a relationship with a pwBPD relatively unscathed?  (Read 1364 times)
tim_tom
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 449


« on: September 22, 2014, 06:51:46 AM »

So it's really 2 questions, is anyone able to emerge from a relationship like this without falling apart? I am thinking it's certain some people would, but also think these these folks  lack the emotional qualities that would've made them BPD prey to begin with. ie. the only way you get sucked in so deeply is if you have a certain fragility/esteem issues to begin with?

Also, as much as I love the shared experiences here, I have to admit it's a little disheartening to hear some of you struggling with this 6, 8 12+ months later. I am 6 weeks post BU and just can't imagine another year of this.

And please understand, I am not criticizing or making fun in anyway, my heart goes out to all of you. I am currently in a pit I can't find my way out of, so I get it, I just want it to end.

Is this torment common to everyone, do some people get over it quickly? And if so, how! Smiling (click to insert in post)
Logged
kc sunshine
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Posts: 1065


« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 07:02:13 AM »

Great questions! Can't wait to hear the answers! I'm still in the pit myself, but the people that seem most healed to me are the ones who seem to 1) have a deep understanding of the mental illness (both sides of it-- the idealization side and the mean/devaluing side) and thus are able to depersonalize it and 2) feel that the experience was a valuable on in providing really important opportunities for growth.
Logged

Suspicious1
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: On/off at any point in the cycle of dating, living together, engaged and 'silent treatment'
Posts: 296



« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 07:06:06 AM »

My last relationship with a pwBPD lasted 18 months. This has been BY FAR the most difficult relationship I've ever had to move on from (though I've dated one pwBPD before and one pwNPD before), and this one doesn't even compare with the other two. This one was intense and I just didn't feel it ran it's course, so was I've had to find my own closure.

I'm an old hand at breaking up with people and moving on, and I usually know what to do to self-soothe and pick myself up again. This time it's been SO difficult and none of the usual things have worked. That said, in the past it's always taken me between a third and a half of the time the relationship lasted for me to TOTALLY get over it, and I'm well on course for that this time, regardless of the fact that this breakup has been so painful.

It's trite to put timescales on it, I know, but it's always been totally true for me and much to my surprise it's proving true again. So for me, for an 18 month relationship *providing the other person doesn't contact me* it'll take me between 5 months and 9 months to have totally moved on.

I'm at nearly 4 months now and am full of anger some days, but the pain has gone and I feel positive again Smiling (click to insert in post).

Hope it passes quickly for you x
Logged
christoff522
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 397


« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 07:08:59 AM »

No.

I think the only people a pwBPD doesn't affect, is sociopaths.

I (personally) think to myself one day "Ah all is good, she didn't get to me that much, I'm doing way better now" and then the next I'm checking her fb wishing that she was single, wondering if she's missing me. Then I look at her statuses and they seem to be how I would write therefore she must be missing me.

But, definite recovery, We all can recover, and I am! I cannot cut off contact for the simple reason that it'd make me look nuts and I have too much pride for that. But I've literally gone over a week now without speaking to her. I won't attempt to speak to her whilst she's in another relationship, I decided that last Sunday. Obviously if she speaks to me I'll be polite.

As you can see, I am scathed.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
Logged
Mr Hollande
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 631


« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 07:09:15 AM »

I think it depends on the emotional investment.

I can say with certainty that I have been with 3 BPD's.

The first one I never loved. I thought I did and I tried very hard but I didn't love her. The feeling afterwards was one of having been wronged and abused. There was no heartache but I was extremely angry. I've never forgiven her and I never will. I was with her for about a year.

The second one came about 18 months after the first one. I was with her 2 months, maybe 3. She was painfully beautiful and also completely batsh#t. Because I was so fresh out of the previous one I was in zero tolerance mode and dropped her like a hot potato. I wasn't with her long enough to get attached at all so I didn't give two sh#ts when it ended. I just went out and devoured the body of some other female who didn't cause me grief.

The third was after a period almost ten years single. I was with her five years and she's the one who dropped me in May. I was totally in love with her and many other things. Very complicated, very painful and just very very sad. I wouldn't say it has destroyed me but it has changed me for the worse. I don't think the trauma of this one will ever fully leave me.

So yes, I'd say it much depends on how emotionally attached you were.
Logged
Bak86
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 351



« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 07:14:59 AM »

i was 4 months with her. it felt like we were soul mates. i was very much in love. it's been 3.5 months since the breakup. the first 2 months were hell. getting better and better each day though. i still have ups and downs sometimes.
Logged
tim_tom
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 449


« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 07:22:15 AM »

I think it depends on the emotional investment.

So yes, I'd say it much depends on how emotionally attached you were.

Interesting yes, I should've clarified. My question assumed a relatively LTR... atleast 6 month+ and that you got sucked into them emotionally during the idealization phase
Logged
Suspicious1
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: On/off at any point in the cycle of dating, living together, engaged and 'silent treatment'
Posts: 296



« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 07:24:26 AM »

Just to add, my first relationship with a pwBPD was a fling. I guess it lasted the spring and summer, and while it was quite fun while it lasted his mood swings and rages terrified me. One day he just stopped contacting me, and though I was sad it was over and would have liked to carry on seeing him, I was over him by autumn, and yes, I'm unscathed. I had some emotional involvement but wasn't in love and was never idealised. He is how I first learned about BPD because he told me he was diagnosed with it. That was over ten years ago and we're FB friends so still chat occasionally. I was talking to him just this morning, actually. I can still see how unstable he is though - he never changed.

Just before that I had quite a long relationship with a pwNPD, and we had the whole roller coaster for the first year or so until things settled when we moved in together. I was totally hung up on him in the early days but when we lived together I just got more and more tired of his narcissism. In the end there were *no* positives to the relationship whatsoever, and he was just consistently unkind to me. I could see all the charm in the early days had been empty and hadn't represented him at all. I broke up with him, cried for a day, and picked myself up with a certain amount of excitement and relief for the six months afterwards. I wasn't unscathed during those six months, but I certainly was fine after that period had passed. I have to emphasise that I was thoroughly sick of him by the end though.
Logged
Blimblam
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2892



WWW
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 07:25:53 AM »

Not if you loved them deeply and believed it would be a serious relationship.

Logged
irishmarmot
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 171


« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 07:45:47 AM »

I read somewhere that it depends upon the length of time you are emotionally involved with them.  Some can end up with irreparable damage.  For me, I have depression so BU are harder for me and although my encounter with my expwBPD was short 5 months.  Its going to take awhile before I can really trust again.  I am 8 months NC.  It's not all bad because its helped me to look at my FOO issues and that is where the healing comes from.
Logged
christoff522
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 397


« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 08:07:42 AM »

I've suffered for a long time with anxiety and depression, and feeling unworthy of any girl. I felt that at 27 my life should have been better, I shouldn't be working in a supermarket I should be doing much better for myself, I should be able to drive, have my own place etc. Then this hot young girl tells me how amazing I am, that she'd dreamed of being with someone like me. How she felt safe and protected around me. I literally, and I say this without any qualms, I literally fell in love with her. I was willing to learn to drive, to get my own place, to find a better job and everything just for her, my fear of success was gone. I felt like a man. Then suddenly she changed, pulled away, I fell into a massive depression, I was even having panic attacks again. Idealization became devaluation, and (I don't think this gets mentioned enough) because we are so emotionally tied to them, when they devalue you - YOU DEVALUE YOU.

Thats why I said before, I think only a sociopath (or perhaps someone with a siginificantly large amount of self-belief) is capable of withstanding them. The average person, I think would find a BPD annoying/weird - in fact thats what my friends said about her.

We push through all the red flags because we're lonely.

Like many have said, a BPD relationship causes you to find out what happened, and then to avoid this ever happening again... to change one's self for the better. I know I am doing much better.
Logged
Mr Hollande
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 631


« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 08:12:10 AM »

We push through all the red flags because we're lonely.

Very true!
Logged
Rifka
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 540



« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 08:39:37 AM »

The first two weeks after I completely ended it were horrible. He would constantly ring my phone, text, stop by my house, stalk, it was crazy and was making me crazy!

By the time two weeks passed and I read here nonstop, had minimal sleep and read books from the library, reality clicked in and I got it!

I knew that I was only going to go forward. It was so much work with all of the reading, sucking up my pride, facing my own ownership to my responsibilities for allowing this to happen. So much self reflecting and forcing myself to walk the walk.

I forced myself out the door to get out when I wanted to be in my bed. I talked about BPD when nobody knew what the hell I was talking about. I forced myself to start living again, as a single.

My friends swarmed in to keep me company and listen as much as they could until they couldn't. I'm sure I was very annoying at a certain point, again they don't get it because they didn't live it!

Reading, talking, going out, have all helped.

I feel nothing for my ex except pity for the loveless life he will live within himself. I have no desire for contact, have deleted him entirely from my life, no expectations of ever wanting him as a friend or lover (that would be mentally and emotionally dangerous for myself! )

I am stronger now, smarter and more educated now. I understand and completely comprehend what happened and why.

Soon I will start to accept casual dates to test the waters again with my boundaries strongly in place. I will be 52 next month so I will climb back on the horse and go forward into a new year.

I feel good, happy, excited and energetic about life and what my new knowledge about BPD can add to it!

I can't stay in the past, because it is the past!

I did my best to love somebody unlovable! This was a no win situation on my end! I really do get it!

Rifka
Logged

Dance like nobody is watching. Love like you have never been hurt before.
Lucky Jim
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 6142


« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 11:48:42 AM »

Hey tim-tom, I think its almost axiomatic that someone with healthy self-esteem would avoid a r/s with a pwBPD.  I should know, because I was married to my BPDxW for 16 years.  Yet I also think that, to be in a BPD r/s, you have to be strong, caring and loyal in the face of constant assault, which are actually admirable qualities.  In my view, those admirable qualities prove self-defeating in a BPD r/s, whereas they might be valued highly in another context.

Sure, the b/u is excruciating, but you will come through it much stronger, wiser and healthier.  It's impossible to give a strict timeline for recovery, because everyone goes at his/her own pace.  It's been said many times here that, in the aftermath of a b/u, the focus needs to be on taking care of YOU, whereas your prior focus was presumably caretaking your BPD SO.

Hang in there,

LuckyJim

Logged

    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Tater tot
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 124


« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 12:07:12 PM »

We push through all the red flags because we're lonely.

I think this is so true. We ignore the flags because there is something that WE NEED, and they are master's at finding those buttons/cracks/insecurities and capatalizing on them. In my case, I was ending a relationship with a bf, and the upbd swept in and made me feel so special, was willing to talk about and through everything, and was so passionate- all those things that I hadn't been getting out of my relationship. I fell for him hard, not for him, but for how he made me feel about myself, and that's where their magic lies. Because they don't know who they are, we fall for how they make us feel about ourselves, and that is so addicting. From a time perspective, i was with him 6 weeks, and am over 3 months out, and it's still hard every day. To not know how he is or what he's doing. But that's because I want to fix him and make him happy. It's not my job. This has been an insightful thread.

I don't know why I'm also stuck. The rational part of my brain knows he's not good for me. But I want to feel like how I felt in the beginning of our relationship. I've also come to realize that Words of Affirmation are so important to me (if you are familiar with the love languages) and that I'm willing to overlook actions, for those words of affirmation, when it reality it's how someone treats you, versus what they say, that really show you how they feel.

Logged
rollercoaster24
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Living apart six months
Posts: 362



« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2014, 11:12:11 PM »

Hi all

My last recycle went from November last year until March this year, we were together 4 years, (2 years he lived at mine for free and 16 months living for free at his elderly parents before they too were forced to ask him to leave due to his violent/aggressive ways).

There were also several periods during the 16 months long distance, where BP periodically returned to live at my place, however he would return to his violent ways again, and I would ask him to return to his parents, (figuring the parents had more power to do something permanent about their son).

Since my family lived with me, (son initially, daughter and son in-law) I didn't just have myself to protect, I had my family to think about as well, so I had to try to maintain some boundaries.

I doubt that I would have stayed with BP as long, if he hadn't always been admitting that he needed help and would one day seek it,

but never followed through.

Like the rest of us, I often got love bombed in between his horrible periods, (every week for several days) and that added to the on/off nature which always drags the process of (finally) leaving out.

This last time, it was me that said Goodbye (and went NC), however BP has made contact twice in the six months apart, and I regret talking with him on my phone, it has only delayed/reversed all the progress I was making.

Prior to the relationship with BP, my first serious relationship (aged 17) was with the Father of my two children, we never married but were together off and on for ten years. Looking back to his behaviour in that relationship, he was likely BP as well, since he perpetrated some pretty nasty acts of violence against me, lacked conscience/empathy/fit all the criteria as well, and to this day still likes to denigrate me behind my back, humiliate me, or generally be nasty to me at times, (he even does this to our grown children by occasionally being nasty and hurting their feelings a lot).

It was worse when he was single, although since being in a serious relationship for 2 years, and also being older now, (52) he has mellowed somewhat.

What I figure is that due to my FOO I seemed to attract men who were abusive, or cheaters, alcoholics or drug addicts, that goes back to my relationship with my Father, (an alcoholic).

I would stand up for myself in relationships, and at times became verbally abusive back, (which only serves to deepen your own shame issues and keep you trapped for longer in that toxicity). I know I repeated that same stupid cycle with BP, yet cannot believe I fell into that hole again, thought I was soo self aware of all these types of issues/red flags.

My daughter often said to me "Mum, I can't believe you have put up with all his crap, this isn't like you at all, what happened?", and another comment was "Man you must really love him to put up with all this, I've never seen you like this".

And that is so true, I can't believe it myself.

I wish I could get some of that hardness back (that BP's seem to master in) and breeze through the breakup easier and faster.

Thanks for letting me share

Roller
Logged
Infern0
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1520


« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 12:12:39 AM »

Sociopaths and psychopaths

I'd say narcissists would have a high level of resistance too.
Logged
Blimblam
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2892



WWW
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 12:19:37 AM »

Sociopaths and psychopaths

I'd say narcissists would have a high level of resistance too.

Yup this. I was at a party on Saturday and this chick kept hitting in me and I could tell she was borderline and I could tell her bf was a sociopath. I told him his gf was nuts and kept hitting on me and he just thought it was funny.  To sociopaths they are a game they don't care so they don't get hurt. 
Logged
irishmarmot
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 171


« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 06:40:26 AM »

Christoff522, I got involved with my expwBPD because I was lonely.  And I ignored the red flags because of that.  In my case you are right, I was going through some depression and she helped to lift me out of that.  I knew something was wrong and she was deeply troubled.   I was inundated with texts and phone calls from the start and I liked all the attention.   She was attracted to me because she sensed my vulnerabilityand my empath traits.  Now that I have some distance from her I can see things more clearly and I am glad she is gone.  She was a destructive influence in my life and caused me a lot of pain.  Of course it's not all her fault.   I played a part in it as well and in the end I am responsible for my own happiness.
Logged
Blimblam
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2892



WWW
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 06:52:43 AM »

Christoff522, I got involved with my expwBPD because I was lonely.  And I ignored the red flags because of that.  In my case you are right, I was going through some depression and she helped to lift me out of that.  I knew something was wrong and she was deeply troubled.   I was inundated with texts and phone calls from the start and I liked all the attention.   She was attracted to me because she sensed my vulnerabilityand my empath traits.  Now that I have some distance from her I can see things more clearly and I am glad she is gone.  She was a destructive influence in my life and caused me a lot of pain.  Of course it's not all her fault.   I played a part in it as well and in the end I am responsible for my own happiness.

Im sorry dude.  I can sense your suffering in this post.  Things do get better though.  Something about your post really hit home with me. 
Logged
tim_tom
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 449


« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2014, 07:10:32 AM »

Christoff522, I got involved with my expwBPD because I was lonely.  And I ignored the red flags because of that.  In my case you are right, I was going through some depression and she helped to lift me out of that.  I knew something was wrong and she was deeply troubled.   I was inundated with texts and phone calls from the start and I liked all the attention.   She was attracted to me because she sensed my vulnerabilityand my empath traits.  Now that I have some distance from her I can see things more clearly and I am glad she is gone.  She was a destructive influence in my life and caused me a lot of pain.  Of course it's not all her fault.   I played a part in it as well and in the end I am responsible for my own happiness.

Pretty much where I stand. My emotional state played a role in this twisted dance, and it's a big cause of why I feel the way I do right now.

It's fun to think of the BPD as an emotional predator, and me the prey, and in some regards this is true, but in reality it was two wounded souls meeting and becoming completely enmeshed very quickly. I am one to accept things the way they are, and find the good in them. She is one to find the bad in everything and reject it. So, she bolted and I don't actually think it was a mistake. I was considering it as well.

My hurt is because it was like a light switch and instant coldness. Imo, given the intensity and length of the relationship it was owed a chance to try and fix it (or at least talk about fixing it)... Rather then, my minds made up, there is no talking about it, I do not care if you are hurt, or if I've broken promises, but this needs to happen right now. I've come to realize she split me black hardcore and hated everything about me and our life. Heck! She even said the word "hate" numerous times about just about anything and everything to do with the life we made. All she saw was hate and negativity, when a week earlier it was completely different.
Logged
christoff522
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 397


« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 07:08:11 AM »

Christoff522, I got involved with my expwBPD because I was lonely.

Admitting that is the first step my friend

Excerpt
And I ignored the red flags because of that.  In my case you are right, I was going through some depression and she helped to lift me out of that.

I just need to point something out, you got yourself out of depression. The fiction of a BPD relationship will indeed push someone to better themselves. But you're far too charitable to say that "she helped". I understand what you're saying, because my relationship gave me that sense of being the man, but about a month later I had friends and family coming to me asking what was wrong and that I seemed depressed. The relationship helped, but the person herself does not, and I can assure you that if you went back to her now, you'd have a breakdown.

Excerpt
I knew something was wrong and she was deeply troubled.   I was inundated with texts and phone calls from the start and I liked all the attention.   She was attracted to me because she sensed my vulnerability and my empath traits.

I know theres a lot of new agey stuff that talks about 'empathic' traits. What this basically means, is that a person is a push-over. Everyone has empathy, except for psychopaths, even BPDs have empathy. I will tell you what your BPD was attracted to - not being alone. In every case, every instance of a relationship with a BPD, the BPD is fighting loneliness, and someone comes along, or is pursued so that the BPD doesn't have to be alone. It's honestly nothing to do with "empath traits". I'm not Counsellor Troi from Star Trek TNG, and her ex was (apparently) a narcissist who beat the crap out of her. She's now with some lad who I am yet to figure out, he seems to be a chump who drives her round everywhere at 3am but who knows. You are definitely vulnerable emotionally, but there's a path you must walk now, that will get you out of this, and that is self-improvement. You've been given a lucky break to find yourself and love yourself. My BPD also used to barrage me with texts, if she did that now in a relationship with me she'd get a very, very, very stern telling off. I wouldn't stand for it, and she'd probably love me more for that. I haven't spoken to her in 11 days, and she's putting statuses up about how she "don't miss anyone, waste of your time".

Excerpt
Now that I have some distance from her I can see things more clearly and I am glad she is gone.  She was a destructive influence in my life and caused me a lot of pain.  Of course it's not all her fault.   I played a part in it as well and in the end I am responsible for my own happiness.

It is her fault, and yes it is yours, You were not being the complete man that you can be, a woman wants to be dominated - not supplicated to. You're finding your place sir, you will get there. Don't expect that you'll be over it in a few weeks, its a long process of fighting yourself, stopping yourself from reaching out. BPDs mash your head up, but if you can give yourself that opportunity to grow, you'll win out. Link sent to you via PM
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2021?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2020 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
40days_in_desert
Ahquei3s
alphabeta
Amethyste
Angie59
ArtistGuy70
AskingWhy
assumezero
At Bay
Avanzando
Baglady
Beneck
bigredneck
Bittlecat
Boll Weevil
calmboom
Cat Familiar
Chosen
Dnmtnbkr
drained1996
Eggshellsbroken
FaintTheGoat
FaithHopeLove
FindingMe2011
Forgiveness
freespirit
GaGrl
ggGreg
Gift to Myself
gotbushels
Harri
hopeandchoices
I Am Redeemed
Imatter33
Jazzy48
jdc
jones54
Jonthan
Katrinalove
Kwamina
l8kgrl
LLgreen
Longterm
lorymac
lovenature
loyalwife
lucidone
Manifest32f
MariannaR
Meridius
Methuen
mgirl
Minttea
Mommydoc
Mutt
narcdaughter2
needPeace
NorseWoman
Notgoneyet
oceanheart
oftentimes
Omega1
once removed
Only Human
otherlife
palynne
PeacefulMom
Pedro
pest947
podsnapG
ProudDad12
pursuingJoy
Radcliff
Raul
Recycle
Resiliant
Rev
Rosheger
Sad4Her
SamwizeGamgee
Sandalwood
SBBayArea
SCM
SerendipityChild
SES
Silverhope
Skip
songbirdtwo
StillStuck
Swimmy55
Teno
townhouse
truthbeknown
turtleengine501
Ventak
vinnie77
Violet00
wavewatcher
wendydarling
WhatJustHappened?
Whichwayisup
whirlpoollife
Wicker Man
WindofChange
worn_out
WTL
zachira
zaqsert

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!