New here and sick with indecision. My story and advice appreciated

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Although I joined bpdfamily months ago, every time I sat down to write out my story I would get too overwhelmed. I think I'm finally ready.

I met my BPD husband shortly after moving to a new town for graduate school. My prior relationship had not ended well - my previous boyfriend could not commit and pressured me for an open relationship, despite knowing I had trust issues. When I met my now husband, his intensity and desire to fast track the relationship seemed like the perfect contrast to my ex. I was so desperate for commitment that I misinterpreted things that should have been enormous red flags.

The controlling behavior came first. He explained that he had been cheated on by every single ex, and that he needed certain things to feel safe. I naively empathized, and allowed him to unduly influence who I spent time with and how often, the activities we participated in, etc. My friends noticed - I went from being the "life of the party" ... .an extreme extrovert to a complete hermit in a matter of weeks. But I loved him - I thought it was just part of the settling down process.

Soon after, he switched from idealizing me to seemingly being irritated with every single aspect of my being. Most of my serious relationships as an adult have been long distance, and I justified his behavior by believing that maybe I WAS a super irritating person, but no one else had ever pointed it out because we were never in the same time zone. If I told him that his criticism hurt me, he would withdraw and not speak to me for days. He told me he just needed "space".

Things gradually got worse over the next couple years. The good times were good enough to keep me in the relationship, but the bad times were absolute crazy making. He wasn't rational - I started to believe I was losing my mind. I never knew who I was going to wake up next to or who was going to walk through the door at the end of the day. One night he got drunk and stayed out the entire night - I started teaching university classes the next morning, and was up all night sick with worry. He wouldn't answer my calls or texts. The next day after I taught, I packed a couple bags and went to live with a girlfriend for a couple months.

I gave him an ultimatum - either he got counseling and we got couples counseling, and he got back on his meds (he was being treated for depression) or the relationship was over. He made a mediocre effort and things seemed to be better, so I moved back in. He proposed six months later and I said "yes".

The exciting wedding planning got us through the next year - we still fought, but the anticipation and pure business masked our/his problems. Shortly after our wedding (about a year ago) things started to rapidly unravel. I had started to make real progress in my doctoral program, and he became more and more critical. I understand now that he was threatened. All our fights were my fault - I "made him act that way". I couldn't do anything right - not even my hair or eye color were right anymore. His moods were more and more unstable. Although it definitely wasn't the worst thing he ever said to me, the final straw came back in April. I had stayed at a girlfriend's house the night before because he was being awful to me. I walked through the door the next morning, and he demanded to know why I was there. He was packing to leave the next day on a business trip, and told me to get out until he was gone. I asked him why he was so angry. He responded, "why are you so dumb?" I picked up my keys, walked out the door, and have not lived there since.

The obvious question at this point is why I'm on this board and not on the divorcing board. I could not have been more certain that I wanted a divorce - my therapist warned me that I would "not get out of the relationship alive" (psychologically speaking) - that people with BPD rarely change.

Well, when I told my husband I had seen an attorney and would be filing for divorce, he did a radical 180 - started intensive counseling, medication, etc. He had been completely uncommunicative, except to be combative about petty ___ during the separation, but is now saying that it took the threat of divorce to wake him up to how awful he had been - that our relationship problems were his fault, and his behavior stemmed from deep insecurity and seeing his father verbally abuse his mother when he was growing up. It truly seemed like he "got it". But it didn't matter. He had pushed me to the point of divorce, and I was not going to change my mind. I communicated that to him several months ago. He would beg me to meet him in person, and then would beg and cry for me to stay with him. I finally told him I needed my space, and that there was nothing to discuss.

Recently I have started to doubt myself, though. Knowing how much pain he is in is absolutely killing me ( I definitely have co-dependence issues), and I'm hung up on breaking my wedding vows. The begging and pleading have not stopped, and he is still committed to therapy. (And has been for a couple months). The few times I have seen him he has been very sweet - super complimentary, charming, etc. I feel like I need to give him another chance, but don't know if I have the emotional strength to deal with things if he relapses, which will undoubtedly happen at some point.

This is all complicated by the fact that I met someone during our separation after I told my husband I wanted a divorce- I'm not proud of that and wish I had been legally divorced first, but in my mind our marriage was over. Spending time with this person has given me a glimpse of how infinitely more compatible with someone I could be ... .and how I deserve to be treated. But I still can't shake the feeling that I'm giving up on my marriage too soon - especially since my husband continually tells me that.

I am wracked with guilt and confusion, and feel constantly nauseous. I'm terrified of making the wrong decision - I'm in mourning about the life I thought we were supposed to have together. I'm scared that he truly is committed to recovery and I'm going to give up something that could potentially be wonderful. I'm scared of giving up the security of the marriage. I'm furious with myself that I'd choose security over the potential for real happiness. I'm terrified that I'll give him another chance and in 10 years will find myself back to square one.

Can he really change? Should I give him another chance?

I'm a mess. Help me please.  :'(

[silentscream]

Although I joined bpdfamily months ago, every time I sat down to write out my story I would get too overwhelmed. I think I'm finally ready.

I met my BPD husband shortly after moving to a new town for graduate school. My prior relationship had not ended well - my previous boyfriend could not commit and pressured me for an open relationship, despite knowing I had trust issues. When I met my now husband, his intensity and desire to fast track the relationship seemed like the perfect contrast to my ex. I was so desperate for commitment that I misinterpreted things that should have been enormous red flags.

The controlling behavior came first. He explained that he had been cheated on by every single ex, and that he needed certain things to feel safe. I naively empathized, and allowed him to unduly influence who I spent time with and how often, the activities we participated in, etc. My friends noticed - I went from being the "life of the party" ... .an extreme extrovert to a complete hermit in a matter of weeks. But I loved him - I thought it was just part of the settling down process.

Soon after, he switched from idealizing me to seemingly being irritated with every single aspect of my being. Most of my serious relationships as an adult have been long distance, and I justified his behavior by believing that maybe I WAS a super irritating person, but no one else had ever pointed it out because we were never in the same time zone. If I told him that his criticism hurt me, he would withdraw and not speak to me for days. He told me he just needed "space".

Things gradually got worse over the next couple years. The good times were good enough to keep me in the relationship, but the bad times were absolute crazy making. He wasn't rational - I started to believe I was losing my mind. I never knew who I was going to wake up next to or who was going to walk through the door at the end of the day. One night he got drunk and stayed out the entire night - I started teaching university classes the next morning, and was up all night sick with worry. He wouldn't answer my calls or texts. The next day after I taught, I packed a couple bags and went to live with a girlfriend for a couple months.

I gave him an ultimatum - either he got counseling and we got couples counseling, and he got back on his meds (he was being treated for depression) or the relationship was over. He made a mediocre effort and things seemed to be better, so I moved back in. He proposed six months later and I said "yes".

The exciting wedding planning got us through the next year - we still fought, but the anticipation and pure business masked our/his problems. Shortly after our wedding (about a year ago) things started to rapidly unravel. I had started to make real progress in my doctoral program, and he became more and more critical. I understand now that he was threatened. All our fights were my fault - I "made him act that way". I couldn't do anything right - not even my hair or eye color were right anymore. His moods were more and more unstable. Although it definitely wasn't the worst thing he ever said to me, the final straw came back in April. I had stayed at a girlfriend's house the night before because he was being awful to me. I walked through the door the next morning, and he demanded to know why I was there. He was packing to leave the next day on a business trip, and told me to get out until he was gone. I asked him why he was so angry. He responded, "why are you so dumb?" I picked up my keys, walked out the door, and have not lived there since.

The obvious question at this point is why I'm on this board and not on the divorcing board. I could not have been more certain that I wanted a divorce - my therapist warned me that I would "not get out of the relationship alive" (psychologically speaking) - that people with BPD rarely change.

Well, when I told my husband I had seen an attorney and would be filing for divorce, he did a radical 180 - started intensive counseling, medication, etc. He had been completely uncommunicative, except to be combative about petty ___ during the separation, but is now saying that it took the threat of divorce to wake him up to how awful he had been - that our relationship problems were his fault, and his behavior stemmed from deep insecurity and seeing his father verbally abuse his mother when he was growing up. It truly seemed like he "got it". But it didn't matter. He had pushed me to the point of divorce, and I was not going to change my mind. I communicated that to him several months ago. He would beg me to meet him in person, and then would beg and cry for me to stay with him. I finally told him I needed my space, and that there was nothing to discuss.

Recently I have started to doubt myself, though. Knowing how much pain he is in is absolutely killing me ( I definitely have co-dependence issues), and I'm hung up on breaking my wedding vows. The begging and pleading have not stopped, and he is still committed to therapy. (And has been for a couple months). The few times I have seen him he has been very sweet - super complimentary, charming, etc. I feel like I need to give him another chance, but don't know if I have the emotional strength to deal with things if he relapses, which will undoubtedly happen at some point.

This is all complicated by the fact that I met someone during our separation after I told my husband I wanted a divorce- I'm not proud of that and wish I had been legally divorced first, but in my mind our marriage was over. Spending time with this person has given me a glimpse of how infinitely more compatible with someone I could be ... .and how I deserve to be treated. But I still can't shake the feeling that I'm giving up on my marriage too soon - especially since my husband continually tells me that.

I am wracked with guilt and confusion, and feel constantly nauseous. I'm terrified of making the wrong decision - I'm in mourning about the life I thought we were supposed to have together. I'm scared that he truly is committed to recovery and I'm going to give up something that could potentially be wonderful. I'm scared of giving up the security of the marriage. I'm furious with myself that I'd choose security over the potential for real happiness. I'm terrified that I'll give him another chance and in 10 years will find myself back to square one.

Can he really change? Should I give him another chance?

I'm a mess. Help me please.  :'(

[hurting300]

  well we can't tell you what to do, but I will say this... think really hard and carefully, open up to him and explain that you do love and support him... if he won't do therapy then you have your answer.

[silentscream]

Thank you, hurting300. That's the thing - he is completely committed to therapy - to mending our relationship. I just don't know if I can give him another chance. I don't know if I can forgive and forget all the awful things he said to me and live without resentment. Even if I could - when things were good with us, they were never spectacular, just ok - am I settling?

I'm desperate for clarity, but feel like I'm in such a fog.

[hurting300]

Thank you, hurting300. That's the thing - he is completely committed to therapy - to mending our relationship. I just don't know if I can give him another chance. I don't know if I can forgive and forget all the awful things he said to me and live without resentment. Even if I could - when things were good with us, they were never spectacular, just ok - am I settling?

I'm desperate for clarity, but feel like I'm in such a fog.

honestly, if you have given him more than one chance and he still didn't change then just tell him it is over. You're right, you don't deserve to waste ten years of your life to later regret it. And yes you are in a fog. It's what they do. Don't validate bad behavior. Ever.

[Inside]

Silentscream,

I followed your post from the ‘cheating’ thread, and can’t help being impressed with the commitment and concern for salvaging your marriage … and all you’ve accomplished despite navigating your husband’s BPD…  And though it often appears (to me) as though newcomers are encouraged to learn various techniques for coping with their mates while attempting to prolong the r/s … I’ve come to a different conclusion, especially in your case.

I married young, only to discover my young wife had a PD that had been kept well hidden.  A serious anxiety condition, I was determined to make the marriage last.  And it did, 29 exhausting years … with two children.  I well remember the point at which I should have ended it, but feared/ knew it would devastate her and bring ‘shame’ on me... .  In the end, she left me, as I continued raising our daughters.  Other than our girls, the marriage was a massive mistake…

My next ‘love’ was an u(undiagnosed)BPD woman who also sought marriage.  After couples counseling and seven ‘recycles,’ that r/s’s been over for nearly a year.  I’ve been studying BPD for nearly 3 years now, at first to understand her, then to figure out how I’ll recover  

You have no children and your marriage is young.  He has BPD, and you’ve experienced it’s effects.  He can not change; the portion of his brain responsible for this condition can not be repaired.  The deepest of therapies only ‘teach’ them when their behavior and thoughts are inappropriate, then count on them to remember and apply what they’ve learned.  We know from their rare confessions and apologies that they already know what’s appropriate and acceptable behavior.  And there are the associated medications … that from all I’ve discovered deal more with ancillary conditions than BPD itself.  …then there are the endless descriptions of folks arriving at this site having lived the nightmare…

I’ve read your longest posts and am impressed with your knowledge, demeanor, and candid descriptions of where you’re currently at and why.  I suggest you follow through on ending the marriage, suffer the storm – then emerge to a bright and healthy day.  Your courtship followed a typical course and your commitment is evident, but ultimately – this is about you (it has to be), and your children if you chose.  And, you’ve found a healthy person to join you – go with him ~ 

…I tend to go on, and apparently have, but you are at a pivotal point, a fork more important than your original marriage.  Please, choose the path to freedom, health and happiness.  The other dead ends, soon… 

[silentscream]

Silentscream,

I followed your post from the ‘cheating’ thread, and can’t help being impressed with the commitment and concern for salvaging your marriage … and all you’ve accomplished despite navigating your husband’s BPD…  And though it often appears (to me) as though newcomers are encouraged to learn various techniques for coping with their mates while attempting to prolong the r/s … I’ve come to a different conclusion, especially in your case.

I married young, only to discover my young wife had a PD that had been kept well hidden.  A serious anxiety condition, I was determined to make the marriage last.  And it did, 29 exhausting years … with two children.  I well remember the point at which I should have ended it, but feared/ knew it would devastate her and bring ‘shame’ on me... .  In the end, she left me, as I continued raising our daughters.  Other than our girls, the marriage was a massive mistake…

My next ‘love’ was an u(undiagnosed)BPD woman who also sought marriage.  After couples counseling and seven ‘recycles,’ that r/s’s been over for nearly a year.  I’ve been studying BPD for nearly 3 years now, at first to understand her, then to figure out how I’ll recover  

You have no children and your marriage is young.  He has BPD, and you’ve experienced it’s effects.  He can not change; the portion of his brain responsible for this condition can not be repaired.  The deepest of therapies only ‘teach’ them when their behavior and thoughts are inappropriate, then count on them to remember and apply what they’ve learned.  We know from their rare confessions and apologies that they already know what’s appropriate and acceptable behavior.  And there are the associated medications … that from all I’ve discovered deal more with ancillary conditions than BPD itself.  …then there are the endless descriptions of folks arriving at this site having lived the nightmare…

I’ve read your longest posts and am impressed with your knowledge, demeanor, and candid descriptions of where you’re currently at and why.  I suggest you follow through on ending the marriage, suffer the storm – then emerge to a bright and healthy day.  Your courtship followed a typical course and your commitment is evident, but ultimately – this is about you (it has to be), and your children if you chose.  And, you’ve found a healthy person to join you – go with him ~ 

…I tend to go on, and apparently have, but you are at a pivotal point, a fork more important than your original marriage.  Please, choose the path to freedom, health and happiness.  The other dead ends, soon… 

Inside - thank you so much for your thoughtful and insightful response. I am desperate for advice right now - primarily because I don't trust myself to make the right decision.

So I have a question for you - would your opinion be the same if my husband had "borderline traits" versus full-blown BPD? I am not a trained therapist, but I would describe him as highly functioning, particularly in comparison to some of the stories I've read here. He is highly successful in his work, and to the outside world seems normal. He does not have episodes of psychosis, and he doesn't rage in the sense of screaming and yelling.

His devaluing me and the unpredictable mood swings that would precede him devaluing me were the most salient symptoms. When he criticized me it almost never included out of control, obscenity-filled rants like I'ev also read about here. Not that it made it less hurtful ... .in fact I might have been able to brush off seemingly "crazy" behavior easier than I was able to shake off what seemed like somewhat rational behavior.

To give a couple of examples that are representative of what he was like when he was in one of his moods and critical of me - I often woke up before him and would grab my phone and read the news, look at FB, etc. His opinion was that I was on my phone too much, but he generally tolerated it. One morning, he woke up, looked at me and said as he slammed into the bathroom, "Why are you always on your f***ing phone?"  I get being bothered by it, but not a reasonable reaction in my opinion.

Another time the situation was reversed - he was laying in bed playing on his phone and I asked what he was doing. His response was, "playing a game. It's the most interesting thing in this room". Yet another example - I kept a blog for a while, and would sometimes be working on it in the office. More than once he walked by and asked if I was "working on my little blog?" ... .he used the air quote gestures and said it in a mocking tone. We disagreed quite frequently about politics - if he said to me one more time "I hate that you think that" ... .or "I hate that you have that opinion" ... .I was going to tear my hair out. He made fun of a teaching technique that I had been explaining to friends when we were all in the car. I could never do anything right.

He tells me now that he recognizes how emotionally and verbally abusive he could be to me. He says it is because of his own brokenness - his father was incredibly demanding and critical, and it destroyed his self esteem. So my relatively healthy self esteem seemed like a threat to him. He was envious of how outgoing I was. He was threatened by my PhD. He swears he gets this now, and can and is changing. Anything that was a sign of strength or independence or creativity was a danger, because he was afraid I would leave him.

I'm in no way trying to minimize the behavior - it was unacceptable. I guess I'm asking - can less "severe" cases of BPD be successfully treated in therapy?

Is there anyone here that was undecided, and decided to stay because their significant other put in a tremendous amount of work to get healthy? This might be a better question for the "staying" board.

I see my therapist today, and the appointment cannot come soon enough ... .

[HoldingAHurricane]

Going to therapy and having some time to think seems like a great place to start. The reality for most of us is that we weren't in a healthy place to begin with and that's why when the first signs of BPD or abusive behaviour showed up we didn't walk away because that's what healthy people do in those situations, IMO. Healthy people make healthy decisions. Unhealthy people make decisions based on guilt, obligation, other people's expectations, fear, etc.

No one can know your husbands potential or desire to change. My opinion is that they will always have BPD even if some learn to manage the symptoms better. You can't be sure if he is just exhibiting the 'frantic desire to avoid abandonment' in seeking therapy which evaporates when you take divorce off the table or if he's in it for the long haul. And the long haul... .some of the research says it takes anywhere from 2 years to 10 years to achieve stability.

My therapist asked me to stop living on the basis of 'what if's'. She said my life was happening right now and so the information I have right now is the only thing I should consider. I've been in therapy for 3 years, trying to get to a healthier place to make healthier choices that are not based on what anyone else is doing but me. That's a work in progress 

As for my experience, my husband has been in weekly-bi-monthly therapy for 2 years. He is making good progress and we are happier together than ever. As his destructive behaviours started to reduce (they haven't gone away by a long shot) I realized for the first time how deeply and profoundly dysfunctional he is. Without constant crisis I had time to see how stunted his emotional development and life experiences are and how lifelong his work is going to be. I have accepted that he will never 'catch up' and be like other men his age. He is learning things for the first time in his late 20's that other people learned in their teens. In some sense, I think I will always be his carer as well as his wife. I thought it would be all roses if he would just stop the destructive behaviours. It is just the beginning.

[Inside]

 So I have a question for you - would your opinion be the same if my husband had "borderline traits" versus full-blown BPD? I am not a trained therapist, but I would describe him as highly functioning, particularly in comparison to some of the stories I've read here. He is highly successful in his work, and to the outside world seems normal. He does not have episodes of psychosis, and he doesn't rage in the sense of screaming and yelling.  

silentscream,  I am very upset… a nearly two hour response was just lost because my “Word program had encountered an error and had to close, sorry for the inconvenience”   Gerrrrrr … but will try again to somewhat duplicate my prior ‘response’ … I was on your last sentence, but feel this is worth it…

Nor am I a trained therapist, just a year of sociology and psychology and everything I’ve been able to find regarding BPD over the last few years.  My uBPDxgf of 3.5 years is a ‘high-functioning’ or ‘invisible’ BPD.  Though better able to conceal their disorder than those at the other end of the spectrum, the base traits appear the same; subtle … but quite destructive.

My BPDx also has a good job and appears ‘normal’ to most.  The ability to conceal their PD ends amid those closest to them, such as siblings, children, parents, friends or spouse.  

His devaluing me and the unpredictable mood swings that would precede him devaluing me were the most salient symptoms. When he criticized me it almost never included out of control, obscenity-filled rants like I'ev also read about here. Not that it made it less hurtful ... .in fact I might have been able to brush off seemingly "crazy" behavior easier than I was able to shake off what seemed like somewhat rational behavior.  

If subtle attacks work, there may be no reason to go ballistic.  And it’s not likely the intensity of his denigrating behavior but the fact it’s there at all that indicates his true intentions.  Which, to me, are meant to weaken you, thus making you less able to challenge him and less attractiveness to others…  

To give a couple of examples that are representative of what he was like when he was in one of his moods and critical of me - I often woke up before him and would grab my phone and read the news, look at FB, etc. His opinion was that I was on my phone too much, but he generally tolerated it. One morning, he woke up, looked at me and said as he slammed into the bathroom, "Why are you always on your f***ing phone?"  I get being bothered by it, but not a reasonable reaction in my opinion.  

I suspect he resents you being in contact with anyone …no mater how benign; a need for control.  And, he may fear you being in contact with another man.  It’s been very common to find folks posting around here astonished to find their mates had longtime ongoing affairs -- after their mates had continuously accused or feared they were doing the same…  

 Another time the situation was reversed - he was laying in bed playing on his phone and I asked what he was doing. His response was, "playing a game. It's the most interesting thing in this room". Yet another example - I kept a blog for a while, and would sometimes be working on it in the office. More than once he walked by and asked if I was "working on my little blog?" ... .he used the air quote gestures and said it in a mocking tone. We disagreed quite frequently about politics - if he said to me one more time "I hate that you think that" ... .or "I hate that you have that opinion" ... .I was going to tear my hair out. He made fun of a teaching technique that I had been explaining to friends when we were all in the car. I could never do anything right.

Sounds like devaluation, his way of creating distance before splitting or painting you black (giving himself permission to look for your replacement).  They’ve a pattern.  I’d thought of your situation today and likened it to a description I read about a child loving a new toy – his favorite.  Tiring of it, he tosses it across the room and looks for a new toy.  But if anyone shows interest in the old toy – it instantly becomes his favorite, again, and he’s willing to do anything to get it back…   Sound familiar, or applicable?  

 He tells me now that he recognizes how emotionally and verbally abusive he could be to me. He says it is because of his own brokenness - his father was incredibly demanding and critical, and it destroyed his self esteem. So my relatively healthy self esteem seemed like a threat to him. He was envious of how outgoing I was. He was threatened by my PhD. He swears he gets this now, and can and is changing. Anything that was a sign of strength or independence or creativity was a danger, because he was afraid I would leave him.  

…my father was the same, but instead of repeating it, having been on the receiving end - it stopped with me.  Much credence is given to various ‘childhood traumas’ regarding the cause of BPD.  The book I read, twice, The Essential Family Guide To BPD by Randi Kreger, includes significant advancements in brain mapping that appear to peg it as a ‘brain disorder’ more than the Freudian based hunt for childhood trauma.  Though further research may tell, my BP gf had a wonderful childhood and loving parents; her traumas were self-initiated…  

I think you’ve an accurate take on his motives and fears… so do you honestly feel he’s capable of changing that behavior?  Not for a few months, or even a few years, but forever... ?  I’ve read endless examples of folks having trusted their BP mates were both willing and capable of long-term change that never happened.  And it’s astonishing how quickly it falls apart.  Not marriage, children, or any level of social commitment seems to make a difference; the task is simply beyond them.  

So, how sorry should we feel?  How much more of ourselves should be give? …how many more chances, or years... ?  You don’t sound like a gambler, nor am I.  And no level of commitment on our part makes any difference.  It’s up to them, and as mentioned ~ beyond them.  

I'm in no way trying to minimize the behavior - it was unacceptable. I guess I'm asking - can less "severe" cases of BPD be successfully treated in therapy?  

The level of intensity may vary but their base motivation appears identical.  BPD can be ‘treated,’ but from all I’ve learned, not cured.  “DBT” is often the therapy, which, as I’d mentioned before, merely ‘teaches them’ which behaviors are acceptable and not.  But as I’ve noticed, they are fully aware of societal expectations, and even capable of navigating them, but it’s fake, an act … an unsustainable act.

Very few pwBPD are willing or compliant with regard to accepting therapy, and even fewer appear capable of putting it into practice.  Personally, it’s a chance I’d no longer be willing to take.  There was a time I’d searched for that level of help for my BP mate, I’d have spent plenty, but after our seven recycles, with each reconnect an opportunity for renewal and forgiveness, she proved incapable of moving beyond her BPD base behavior … as her old toy finally went to threads.

 I see my therapist today, and the appointment cannot come soon enough ... .

Excellent.  And I also hope some well-versed long-time posters will spot this thread.  …and I hope what I’ve cobbled together here didn’t lose anything relevant I’d already come up with…  …I’ve a fancy new laptop arriving soon

Take care

[silentscream]

Holding a Hurricane and Inside - thank you SO MUCH for your time and responses. You may be literally saving my life right now. I have a mountain of grading in front of me so I'll respond tomorrow when I have more time, but wanted to let you know how much I appreciate you! 

[Inside]

Zneat ~ you’re one of us, and we’re a Family!

I’d looked up and had actually saved the following.  A member had asked for a summation of BPD behavior and I thought “Fromheeltoheal’s” apparently off-the-cuff rendition amazingly accurate, so I saved it!  

Here’s the link https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=234615.msg12506082#msg12506082

And here’s his piece (read at your leisure ):  

“It's best to think of yourself as an attachment.  BPD is about need fulfillment, the need to feel good, by using another person, it's not about love.  When a borderline attaches to someone they feel whole, complete themselves, become a 'self' that they don't have on their own.  And once the attachment is formed, the terror of abandonment shows up, although if you get too close a borderline will feel engulfed, lose themselves, so they will push you away, only to feel abandoned, and pull you back, in a perpetual dance.  And there's a lot of shame in there, which can be projected on you as a defense mechanism, you may distance yourself because of it, they will sense they're about to be abandoned, and on and on... .

So bottom line relationships are not sustainable, and the emotions become too strong for a borderline to handle, so you become triggering instead of soothing, like in the beginning.  We play our role, of course, but all of the above has nothing to do with you, in that it could have been anyone, any attachment.  So if a borderline thinks she's going to be abandoned, that continual fear, she will look for another attachment, or already had a few, use black and white thinking to make you all bad, and project everything she doesn't like about herself on you, a coping mechanism.  So you become the scum of the earth, which again has nothing to do with you.

All of that sounds cold and mean, but remember BPD is a mental illness and she's doing the best she can with it.  Plus, borderlines do not have the ability to connect with how you're feeling, and are so tied up in their own pain they don't have time anyway.  The control you mention is motivated by that fear of abandonment, exercised so you won't leave, which always backfires because we leave anyway, or they sense we're about to, based on their own perceptions, so they leave first.  And by then the emotions are just too strong, so removing you from her life just feels better.  Of course at some point, when a new attachment goes south, which it will, she may turn to you as if nothing happened, to see if an attachment is still in place and can be used for soothing.

Standard borderline, apply as needed, and take care of you!”

[NMRK_11]

Silentscream,


To give a couple of examples that are representative of what he was like when he was in one of his moods and critical of me - I often woke up before him and would grab my phone and read the news, look at FB, etc. His opinion was that I was on my phone too much, but he generally tolerated it. One morning, he woke up, looked at me and said as he slammed into the bathroom, "Why are you always on your f***ing phone?"  I get being bothered by it, but not a reasonable reaction in my opinion.

This literally happened to me this morning.  Along with uBPDh saying: "Your phone is obviously much more interesting than I am." 

[Loosestrife]

Hi, my therapist said the same - that I wouldn't get out in one piece.

I fell for the begging to meet up and then the apologies and the I love you's. All it did was out me back several weeks in recovery and I now regret it. I have just re-read some of the spiteful emails I got when I initially finished the relationship a month ago and it reminded me how much they can turn on and off to get their own way or transfer their hurt. It sounds like you have a good career ahead of you and the opportunity of a healthy non BPD relationship and maybe even have a family that won't get damaged in the process. Stay strong x

[maryy16]

Like yours, my H, too, is high functioning and on the higher end of the BPD spectrum.  I can truly relate to your sadness and frustrations as my H too is the master of put downs and snide, sarcastic remarks.  Once after he'd been on the computer for hours. I asked him what he was doing on there... .his response was , " I'm on here with my real friends, with people who really care about me, unlike you."   And we were not fighting or anything when he made that remark.

I will be married to him 30 years next month, and to answer your question if your H can change, unfortunately, my answer is "no".  My H has gotten better.  He has been on medication for the past 10 years.  The medication has not lessened the severity of his moods, but it has lessened the frequency. When in his normal state, he can fully admit his faults, understand the craziness of his behavior, and even make fun of himself, BUT once he becomes dysregulated, all the same, old behaviors come back.  Sometimes, and I mean sometimes now I can bring it to his attention that he's beginning to get off kilter, and he is able to stop himself, but that is rare.

While your H may be trying really hard now with the best intentions, unfortunately, at least from my experience, I would not expect his good behavior to last.  I'm afraid that once he becomes comfortable with you again, he will revert back to his old behavior, possibly a bit better, but not "cured".

BPD is an awful affliction with not many success stories.

[silentscream]

Going to therapy and having some time to think seems like a great place to start. The reality for most of us is that we weren't in a healthy place to begin with and that's why when the first signs of BPD or abusive behaviour showed up we didn't walk away because that's what healthy people do in those situations, IMO. Healthy people make healthy decisions. Unhealthy people make decisions based on guilt, obligation, other people's expectations, fear, etc.

No one can know your husbands potential or desire to change. My opinion is that they will always have BPD even if some learn to manage the symptoms better. You can't be sure if he is just exhibiting the 'frantic desire to avoid abandonment' in seeking therapy which evaporates when you take divorce off the table or if he's in it for the long haul. And the long haul... .some of the research says it takes anywhere from 2 years to 10 years to achieve stability.

My therapist asked me to stop living on the basis of 'what if's'. She said my life was happening right now and so the information I have right now is the only thing I should consider. I've been in therapy for 3 years, trying to get to a healthier place to make healthier choices that are not based on what anyone else is doing but me. That's a work in progress 

As for my experience, my husband has been in weekly-bi-monthly therapy for 2 years. He is making good progress and we are happier together than ever. As his destructive behaviours started to reduce (they haven't gone away by a long shot) I realized for the first time how deeply and profoundly dysfunctional he is. Without constant crisis I had time to see how stunted his emotional development and life experiences are and how lifelong his work is going to be. I have accepted that he will never 'catch up' and be like other men his age. He is learning things for the first time in his late 20's that other people learned in their teens. In some sense, I think I will always be his carer as well as his wife. I thought it would be all roses if he would just stop the destructive behaviours. It is just the beginning.

HoldingaHurricane - thanks so much for sharing your experience. This part of your message really touched on the thing I'm afraid of most: "I have accepted that he will never 'catch up' and be like other men his age. He is learning things for the first time in his late 20's that other people learned in their teens. In some sense, I think I will always be his carer as well as his wife. I thought it would be all roses if he would just stop the destructive behaviours. It is just the beginning." I'm afraid I will always have the responsibility of caring for an adult with special emotional needs that will never be capable of engaging with me in an entirely healthy manner. I feel so selfish wanting to walk away - that whole "in sickness and in health" part of the vows, you know? But I just don't know if I can commit myself to a lifetime of this. 

[silentscream]

Like yours, my H, too, is high functioning and on the higher end of the BPD spectrum.  I can truly relate to your sadness and frustrations as my H too is the master of put downs and snide, sarcastic remarks.  Once after he'd been on the computer for hours. I asked him what he was doing on there... .his response was , " I'm on here with my real friends, with people who really care about me, unlike you."   And we were not fighting or anything when he made that remark.

I will be married to him 30 years next month, and to answer your question if your H can change, unfortunately, my answer is "no".  My H has gotten better.  He has been on medication for the past 10 years.  The medication has not lessened the severity of his moods, but it has lessened the frequency. When in his normal state, he can fully admit his faults, understand the craziness of his behavior, and even make fun of himself, BUT once he becomes dysregulated, all the same, old behaviors come back.  Sometimes, and I mean sometimes now I can bring it to his attention that he's beginning to get off kilter, and he is able to stop himself, but that is rare.

While your H may be trying really hard now with the best intentions, unfortunately, at least from my experience, I would not expect his good behavior to last.  I'm afraid that once he becomes comfortable with you again, he will revert back to his old behavior, possibly a bit better, but not "cured".

BPD is an awful affliction with not many success stories.

Mary - thank you for sharing as well. Wow - your dedication is truly admirable and impressive! I assume you would answer "yes" if I asked whether or not you think the sacrifices have been worth the life you have been able to build together - with him gradually improving. Would you make the same decision if you could turn the clock back 30 years? I know that's not a question that is probably easily answered ... .

[silentscream]

Hi, my therapist said the same - that I wouldn't get out in one piece.

I fell for the begging to meet up and then the apologies and the I love you's. All it did was out me back several weeks in recovery and I now regret it. I have just re-read some of the spiteful emails I got when I initially finished the relationship a month ago and it reminded me how much they can turn on and off to get their own way or transfer their hurt. It sounds like you have a good career ahead of you and the opportunity of a healthy non BPD relationship and maybe even have a family that won't get damaged in the process. Stay strong x

Louise - I WISH I had journaled because I could have filled up dozens and dozens of pages of the crazy. You were wise to save those emails. I feel like it is part of human survival to block out the bad and just remember the good - otherwise we might go crazy. But so many memories are resurfacing as I post here - it is tremendous how quickly they can turn on you and how awful they can be. 

[silentscream]

Inside - thank you for taking the time - TWICE because of stupid Word - to respond to my long message! Your answer is so spot on for each and every point that I brought up. A similar theme to this part of your message actually came up in my therapy appointment:

"I think you’ve an accurate take on his motives and fears… so do you honestly feel he’s capable of changing that behavior?  Not for a few months, or even a few years, but forever... ?  I’ve read endless examples of folks having trusted their BP mates were both willing and capable of long-term change that never happened.  And it’s astonishing how quickly it falls apart.  Not marriage, children, or any level of social commitment seems to make a difference; the task is simply beyond them. 

So, how sorry should we feel?  How much more of ourselves should be give? …how many more chances, or years... ?  You don’t sound like a gambler, nor am I.  And no level of commitment on our part makes any difference.  It’s up to them, and as mentioned ~ beyond them."

My therapist asked me how much evidence I needed to make the decision that he was incapable of changing. How many chances - how much time - how many crazy-making episodes. I feel like I've had a bunch of final straws, but had a couple more today.

I found out that he had created and activated a Match.com profile. It may be in response to the fact that I had started dating ... .but still ... .a person that is 200% committed to saving our marriage as he said he is, would not join an online dating site. I'm sure he is looking for my replacement.

I also found out that he created a false profile to stalk me on Instagram - posing as a Justin Beiber-obsessed teenage girl. I have since completely locked down my account, and am totally off FB for the time being. That level of deception - he put quite a bit of effort into creating a believable profile - all the while texting me and tell me how much he cares for me and just wants us to be healthy and good together. It blows my mind. How much evidence DO I need before I finally get it through my sick skull that he is not a well person?

[hurting300]

Inside - thank you for taking the time - TWICE because of stupid Word - to respond to my long message! Your answer is so spot on for each and every point that I brought up. A similar theme to this part of your message actually came up in my therapy appointment:

"I think you’ve an accurate take on his motives and fears… so do you honestly feel he’s capable of changing that behavior?  Not for a few months, or even a few years, but forever... ?  I’ve read endless examples of folks having trusted their BP mates were both willing and capable of long-term change that never happened.  And it’s astonishing how quickly it falls apart.  Not marriage, children, or any level of social commitment seems to make a difference; the task is simply beyond them. 

So, how sorry should we feel?  How much more of ourselves should be give? …how many more chances, or years... ?  You don’t sound like a gambler, nor am I.  And no level of commitment on our part makes any difference.  It’s up to them, and as mentioned ~ beyond them."

My therapist asked me how much evidence I needed to make the decision that he was incapable of changing. How many chances - how much time - how many crazy-making episodes. I feel like I've had a bunch of final straws, but had a couple more today.

I found out that he had created and activated a Match.com profile. It may be in response to the fact that I had started dating ... .but still ... .a person that is 200% committed to saving our marriage as he said he is, would not join an online dating site. I'm sure he is looking for my replacement.

I also found out that he created a false profile to stalk me on Instagram - posing as a Justin Beiber-obsessed teenage girl. I have since completely locked down my account, and am totally off FB for the time being. That level of deception - he put quite a bit of effort into creating a believable profile - all the while texting me and tell me how much he cares for me and just wants us to be healthy and good together. It blows my mind. How much evidence DO I need before I finally get it through my sick skull that he is not a well person?

I'm sorry but why would you be upset with him being on match.com? You are dating also you said? And commitment to saving a marriage is two sided... .I'm not defending him just saying...

[silentscream]

Inside - thank you for taking the time - TWICE because of stupid Word - to respond to my long message! Your answer is so spot on for each and every point that I brought up. A similar theme to this part of your message actually came up in my therapy appointment:

"I think you’ve an accurate take on his motives and fears… so do you honestly feel he’s capable of changing that behavior?  Not for a few months, or even a few years, but forever... ?  I’ve read endless examples of folks having trusted their BP mates were both willing and capable of long-term change that never happened.  And it’s astonishing how quickly it falls apart.  Not marriage, children, or any level of social commitment seems to make a difference; the task is simply beyond them. 

So, how sorry should we feel?  How much more of ourselves should be give? …how many more chances, or years... ?  You don’t sound like a gambler, nor am I.  And no level of commitment on our part makes any difference.  It’s up to them, and as mentioned ~ beyond them."

My therapist asked me how much evidence I needed to make the decision that he was incapable of changing. How many chances - how much time - how many crazy-making episodes. I feel like I've had a bunch of final straws, but had a couple more today.

I found out that he had created and activated a Match.com profile. It may be in response to the fact that I had started dating ... .but still ... .a person that is 200% committed to saving our marriage as he said he is, would not join an online dating site. I'm sure he is looking for my replacement.

I also found out that he created a false profile to stalk me on Instagram - posing as a Justin Beiber-obsessed teenage girl. I have since completely locked down my account, and am totally off FB for the time being. That level of deception - he put quite a bit of effort into creating a believable profile - all the while texting me and tell me how much he cares for me and just wants us to be healthy and good together. It blows my mind. How much evidence DO I need before I finally get it through my sick skull that he is not a well person?

I'm sorry but why would you be upset with him being on match.com? You are dating also you said? And commitment to saving a marriage is two sided... .I'm not defending him just saying...

Absolutely fair question.

I'm not upset, I just think it is telling as far as his dysregulation is concerned. I have been honest with my husband that I was done with the marriage, and was ready to start dating at some point. I regret not filing first, but I let him know exactly where I stood. My actions have been in line with what I've communicated to him.

He, however, has sworn up and down that he wants nothing more than to mend our relationship - I'm the most precious thing to him ... .I'm his "one and only person". Creating a dating profile the same day we met in person and he reiterated those feelings seems like a complete contradiction, and makes me trust his true intentions.

[hurting300]

Inside - thank you for taking the time - TWICE because of stupid Word - to respond to my long message! Your answer is so spot on for each and every point that I brought up. A similar theme to this part of your message actually came up in my therapy appointment:

"I think you’ve an accurate take on his motives and fears… so do you honestly feel he’s capable of changing that behavior?  Not for a few months, or even a few years, but forever... ?  I’ve read endless examples of folks having trusted their BP mates were both willing and capable of long-term change that never happened.  And it’s astonishing how quickly it falls apart.  Not marriage, children, or any level of social commitment seems to make a difference; the task is simply beyond them. 

So, how sorry should we feel?  How much more of ourselves should be give? …how many more chances, or years... ?  You don’t sound like a gambler, nor am I.  And no level of commitment on our part makes any difference.  It’s up to them, and as mentioned ~ beyond them."

My therapist asked me how much evidence I needed to make the decision that he was incapable of changing. How many chances - how much time - how many crazy-making episodes. I feel like I've had a bunch of final straws, but had a couple more today.

I found out that he had created and activated a Match.com profile. It may be in response to the fact that I had started dating ... .but still ... .a person that is 200% committed to saving our marriage as he said he is, would not join an online dating site. I'm sure he is looking for my replacement.

I also found out that he created a false profile to stalk me on Instagram - posing as a Justin Beiber-obsessed teenage girl. I have since completely locked down my account, and am totally off FB for the time being. That level of deception - he put quite a bit of effort into creating a believable profile - all the while texting me and tell me how much he cares for me and just wants us to be healthy and good together. It blows my mind. How much evidence DO I need before I finally get it through my sick skull that he is not a well person?

I'm sorry but why would you be upset with him being on match.com? You are dating also you said? And commitment to saving a marriage is two sided... .I'm not defending him just saying...

Absolutely fair question.

I'm not upset, I just think it is telling as far as his dysregulation is concerned. I have been honest with my husband that I was done with the marriage, and was ready to start dating at some point. I regret not filing first, but I let him know exactly where I stood. My actions have been in line with what I've communicated to him.

He, however, has sworn up and down that he wants nothing more than to mend our relationship - I'm the most precious thing to him ... .I'm his "one and only person". Creating a dating profile the same day we met in person and he reiterated those feelings seems like a complete contradiction, and makes me trust his true intentions.

oh yes I see... .That's my problem with my ex. Actions speak louder than words.

[Aussie0zborn]

You have asked the right questions and I would think the answers will all be the same. There is no chance of permanent happiness for you in a relationship with a pwBPD.

Your empathy leads you to a sense of guilt. I was in the same position once and I went back. That was the biggest mistake of my life. Things don't change no matter how much we want them to and how much we try.  The fact you were able to abandon him will never be forgotten and once they have some measure of control the payback starts. If you think he has been nasty in the past when you were supportive, how nasty is he going to get knowing that you are capable of that again? By going back, they actually resent your weakness and hate you for it.

I would suggest seeking counselling to get over your feelings of guilt. If you are beating yourself up over this now, how will you be in ten years when you're raising children by yourself? It's easier to forgive someone else than it is to forgive ourselves for our blatant stupidity. Go through with the divorce and move on. A happier heathy life awaits you.