Going for Court Order while doing Marital Counseling?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I know that may sound like a weird question but I'm totally confused here.

BPDbf has been seriously dysregulating for 3 months now, we're now living apart.

We've tried MC a couple of times but his "good mood" really doesn't last long. He's been painting me black for ages now (there was a break over a month ago).

He's been going from wanting things to improve to total hatred toward me. I'm confused and lost.

He took baby away yesterday, things didn't turn too well as he brought him back 2hours late. But the main concern was that I tried to call him and his dad 7 times before I got an answer, and I'm sure he told his dad not to pick up the phone. So I got upset of course, he shouted that he could do whatever he wanted, pick up his baby whenever he wanted, and I said no.

Then he sent me text messages to tell me I was nasty and trying to keep his baby away from him... .

Today, I sent an "official" message to "invite" him to mediation and to ask to "stay away from our house as his behaviour scared the kids and I."

He answered that he wants court order, not mediation... .

I'd like your experience on this. When you went to see your lawyer, went for CO etc... .did you intend to also improve your r/s at the same time? Or am I just in denial that this r/s is OVER?

It was just so quick... .things went from bad to worse and I wonder how worse they can still get. I mean... .3 months ago we were a couple, he loved me and we were planning our holidays... .

So, what the hell?

Are there any who managed to improve their r/s while protecting themselves and the kids by living apart and CO?

[Indyan]

I know that may sound like a weird question but I'm totally confused here.

BPDbf has been seriously dysregulating for 3 months now, we're now living apart.

We've tried MC a couple of times but his "good mood" really doesn't last long. He's been painting me black for ages now (there was a break over a month ago).

He's been going from wanting things to improve to total hatred toward me. I'm confused and lost.

He took baby away yesterday, things didn't turn too well as he brought him back 2hours late. But the main concern was that I tried to call him and his dad 7 times before I got an answer, and I'm sure he told his dad not to pick up the phone. So I got upset of course, he shouted that he could do whatever he wanted, pick up his baby whenever he wanted, and I said no.

Then he sent me text messages to tell me I was nasty and trying to keep his baby away from him... .

Today, I sent an "official" message to "invite" him to mediation and to ask to "stay away from our house as his behaviour scared the kids and I."

He answered that he wants court order, not mediation... .

I'd like your experience on this. When you went to see your lawyer, went for CO etc... .did you intend to also improve your r/s at the same time? Or am I just in denial that this r/s is OVER?

It was just so quick... .things went from bad to worse and I wonder how worse they can still get. I mean... .3 months ago we were a couple, he loved me and we were planning our holidays... .

So, what the hell?

Are there any who managed to improve their r/s while protecting themselves and the kids by living apart and CO?

[Iforget]

I am currently trying to seperate and divorce.  There are others with more experience that I am sure will chime in.  My kids are older so I don't have so much drama with the kids.  But, if I was you, I would run to a lawyer and get an emergencey hearing to establish visitation.  When he violates it, call the police.  All it takes is the threat of calling the police for me to get my stbx to pull it together.  But I have heard many other BPD don't/can't maintain self control. Right now he is testing your boundaries.  If you don't take a stand and action right now, then who is to say next time he won't take the baby and not bring her/him back.  Without a court order you will have a long road to travel to get custody again.  You should be afraid of this and this should spur you to action.

[Indyan]

Without a court order you will have a long road to travel to get custody again.  You should be afraid of this and this should spur you to action.

I forgot to mention that I saw a lawyer on Thursday. She told me to try and keep things this way (he used to come and see baby a few hours on the weekend). I said that this time he'd asked to take baby away in his family (4 hours drive back and forth) and she told me "that will be the test, see if he respects the schedule."

He didn't of course.

That's the reason I said "no more" and proposed mediation. I thought it was a good way to settle things down, and if necessary have them approved later with a court order.

But I seriously question the possibility to discuss anything with him at this stage. He's too much "a victim" and anything I'll say is taken as an attack.

I have no intention of letting him take baby again like this, no way.

[ForeverDad]

He no longer sees you as having authority or that he needs to respect your decisions or boundaries.  As was mentioned, he's pushing your boundaries, it's a typical pattern, he just doesn't listen any more.  More reasoning, pleading, cajoling or appeasing won't work or at least not for long.  Family court is the ultimate Authority.

I went 3 months without seeing my preschooler. My ex didn't work, she never left him and so she kept physical possession.  I did ask the police to proactively come with me but the officer refused, said to try again when I had a court order in hand.  But he did confirm that if she call 911 then of course they'd come rushing.  I had no way to pick him up without her there, she wasn't using daycare or school, I knew that if I approached them she would call the police and try to have me arrested saying she was 'fearful' or whatever.  Well, that took over two months to get a hearing and temp order.  And no, the magistrate took it in stride, verified with my ex that she had blocked my father-child access and then stated "Well, I'll fix that" and ordered that I got alternate weekends.  No consequences of any sort for my ex, not even a lecture or finger wagging, it was just another day at work for the magistrate.

Without a parenting schedule ordered by the court, your protests to him about a schedule are more and more likely to fall on deaf ears.  However a court order with a parenting or visitation schedule is at least somewhat enforceable.  Be sure to list his prior visitation time and why it has been limited.  Judges love to issue 'standard' schedules, often alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between.  If you want anything less and you'd have to document that the history has been less time and why.

[Isa_lala]

Indyan, Iforget and foreverdad are right.

You should find a way to set your bouunderies. If not, he will test you again and again.

And if it has to be by a CO, it will be a CO... .

Are you still hoping that your relationship improves?

[livednlearned]

The issues that make BPD sufferers difficult to live with are the same ones that make them difficult parents. Sometimes difficult can mean annoying, aggravating, or irritating. Sometimes difficult can mean dangerous, irresponsible, or negligent.

That ratchets up the need for boundaries. Before, you might've let your boundaries slide, but with a baby, it's harder to do that. Because you, as the non-disordered parent, have a much different standard of care for your baby than someone who is mentally ill.

Like FD said, your H is testing your boundaries and he doesn't see you as having authority over him, and that includes what he does with the baby.

So the more intent you become on boundaries for your baby, the deeper into court you will go. And having fuzzy boundaries in the legal system is not the way to go. If you look like you're not clear about what is best for the child, the court will chew you up and spit you out. Court does not care at all about whether you improve your relationship. When it comes to custody, it is 100 percent about the well-being of the child.

[ugghh]

Indy,

Or am I just in denial that this r/s is OVER?

I think most of us would say that we cannot answer this question for you.  However I would point you toward the Choosing a Path sidebar on the right side of the Undecided board.

That being said, you are posting her on the Law board.  As others have said, it is kind of a core part of the disease that the BPD cannot respect boundaries.  To expect otherwise is to live in denial.  Regarding mediation, I did not even bother as my L had enough experience to say that it would just be a waste of time with the BPD and in my state it is not required, as it is in some countries and states.  I would say that 90% or more of the posters here have had limited if any success with mediation, often getting to the point of thinking they have an agreement only to have the pwBPD move the goal.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking a court order to bring some structure to the children's lives, even if you are holding out hope for the relationship.  Glad to hear you are seeing a lawyer.

[ForeverDad]

Generally mediation fails when done early in a separation or divorce.  Why?  The ex is too entitled and perhaps possessive too and isn't willing to face the facts of a poor standing in court until a major hearing or trial is looming.  However, many here do make settlements, just not early in their cases, often - as it was in my case - it was virtually "on the court house steps" just before trial.

The above especially applies to a possessive and entitled ex, it seems most mothers and some fathers fit that category.  Since the father here has been having very limited parenting or visitation thus far, it may be different for you, you may be able to leverage a settlement earlier in the process than most of us.  But be prepared for him to "move the goalposts" as soon as you get close, with defeat to be snatched from the jaws of victory.

For many here it was wise to keep the case moving along.  In my case my ex had a very favorable temporary order that placed her as temp custodial parent and majority time, she had every incentive to prolong the case as long as she could, my divorce took 23.5 months despite me keeping the case moving along as quickly as possible.  Again, your case is probably different, he's pushing boundaries but not really controlling things as much as other high(er) conflict cases.

It's entirely possible that if you keep to firm boundaries that he will acquiesce and keep to a limited role appropriate for his possible PD status.  Likely it will take a temp order and later a settlement or final decree to make it official but keep in mind that reasonableness, flexibility and efforts to mediate can be interpreted as signs of weakness, too tempting for him to ignore.

[livednlearned]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking a court order to bring some structure to the children's lives, even if you are holding out hope for the relationship.  Glad to hear you are seeing a lawyer.

I am a bit scarred by my experiences with the court system, so I worry about this approach. Once you get entangled in court orders, your situation takes on a life of its own. You can't be wishy washy in court. What you sign -- even when they call it a temporary order -- becomes permanent. It takes a lot of money and effort to change it. So if you tell court your ex is mentally ill and you need full custody, but then you get back together, you dig a hole that is hard to climb out of.

[Indyan]

So if you tell court your ex is mentally ill and you need full custody, but then you get back together, you dig a hole that is hard to climb out of.

what do you mean?

I think it would be really hard to get back together once I've "proven" he's mentally ill!

And if we ever got back together, it would have to be in two different houses for sure.

[ForeverDad]

This may not be the point being made by the others, but likely you're seen the "Cops" episodes?  The officer is rushing to respond to a family dispute call.  He tells the camera, ""Here we go again, it's the weekend and like clockwork this couple fights."  He arrives knowing the history, knowing too that once the immediate incident is resolved that it will just happen again sooner or later.  Is he going to try hard while there?  Likely not.  Same for the courts in case one or both of them is carted off.  The fact is they care less for the repeat victims, repeat perpetrators, repeat clients, repeat litigants.

So... .if you go back without real confidence the other person have made solid progress toward recovery in therapy then the professionals will be looking at you and think to themselves, "Here we go again, more repeats, what did he/she expect would happen when going back?"

It has been commented here that MC - marital counseling - is for repairing the marriage.  If you're in a divorce case then that is for unwinding a marriage.  So it's one or the other.  Ponder well whether you can risk going back, knowing that it is very, very hard for a person to make major to their thinking, perceptions, behaviors, etc.  And especially not quickly.

Instead of MC, are you trying to get co-parenting to work?  Or improve the parenting?

[livednlearned]

So if you tell court your ex is mentally ill and you need full custody, but then you get back together, you dig a hole that is hard to climb out of.

what do you mean?

I think it would be really hard to get back together once I've "proven" he's mentally ill!

And if we ever got back together, it would have to be in two different houses for sure.

Court doesn't really care if your spouse is mentally ill -- at least, not the label or the diagnosis. If you prove that your ex is mentally ill, the court will just shrug. Lots of people are diagnosed mentally ill, and many are in treatment or take their medication, and are able to effectively care for their kids. Court also doesn't care if you are having problems with your ex -- that's expected. That's why you're in court.

What really flips court out is if the two of you are so mad at each other you can't focus on the child. My judge had two parents in court a few weeks ago who would not stop bickering at each other, and the mom looked like she was going to reach over and hit her ex, and the judge hit his gavel and told them they were acting like two idiots.    He told them they needed to reschedule the hearing until they could act like grown ups. There is so much he-said, she-said in court, and a lot of people who didn't know how to resolve conflicts in the marriage, and now they're in front of the judge having the same problem. You have to show that you're the one who knows how to do be a consistent, stable, calm, collected problem-solving and reasonable grown-up, but your ex for whatever reason cannot. And then you present documentation or testimony why.

You can always try mediation, but a lot of people don't have much success with it, or else they settle right before going to court.

Have you read Splitting by Bill Eddy? That will give you a good view into how BPD mixes with court, and how to manage (and find) a good lawyer.

[Indyan]

If they don't care about his mental health, then they might care about his violence, and the fact that my D10 is scared of him. And mainly that I found him with a bleeding hand after a rage fit in the summer while baby was (supposedly) sleeping at his parents' house.

As to remain calm on my side, I have no doubt on this. On his side, little doubt, as I'm pretty sure he'll show a perfect face to the judge.

[livednlearned]

If they don't care about his mental health, then they might care about his violence, and the fact that my D10 is scared of him. And mainly that I found him with a bleeding hand after a rage fit in the summer while baby was (supposedly) sleeping at his parents' house.

As to remain calm on my side, I have no doubt on this. On his side, little doubt, as I'm pretty sure he'll show a perfect face to the judge.

Do you think he'll have a lawyer? That can sometimes filter BPD behaviors, so it becomes a he-said, she-said. The plaintiff/defendant does not always testify. It depends on what you're in court for. That's why documentation is so important. But I'm in the US, so it could be different from where you are.