Is it all planned or calculated

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've been doing well and feeling quite positive now but questions keep arising! I can pinpoint when he started looking for a new supply but had to keep me hanging on as there were various things he needed me to do for him (for eg looking after him after an op). We then split up and i feel he used our break up (his choice) to hook his new girlfriend as he told her how horrible I was to him and how much I had hurt him. So now she has come to the rescue and is providing the money, attention, endless lifts etc etc that he needs.

I just wonder how someone so chaotic and turbulent can do this so cleverly.  Do they know what they are doing? Do they consciously think "right I'll get rid of her but make sure I extract as much money as possible first"?

I feel like he was planning his exit for sometime but for someone who often can't do th most basic of things it makes me think how on earth did he do it!

Any thoughts?

[merlin4926]

I've been doing well and feeling quite positive now but questions keep arising! I can pinpoint when he started looking for a new supply but had to keep me hanging on as there were various things he needed me to do for him (for eg looking after him after an op). We then split up and i feel he used our break up (his choice) to hook his new girlfriend as he told her how horrible I was to him and how much I had hurt him. So now she has come to the rescue and is providing the money, attention, endless lifts etc etc that he needs.

I just wonder how someone so chaotic and turbulent can do this so cleverly.  Do they know what they are doing? Do they consciously think "right I'll get rid of her but make sure I extract as much money as possible first"?

I feel like he was planning his exit for sometime but for someone who often can't do th most basic of things it makes me think how on earth did he do it!

Any thoughts?

[Popcorn71]

I don't know how they can do it, but I am sure they do plan to leave and how they will leave.

My ex really got things in order before he left.  He made sure he took all his stuff from my home (we were living separately by then) and he made sure he had copies of all important paperwork.  I did not realise at the time that he was taking all these things.  He did it bit by bit over a few weeks.  A couple of weeks before the end, we had split up for a few days.  I think he realised during that time that he needed some things and came back purely for the purpose of getting what he needed.

The act he put on during the last couple of weeks he spent with me was unbelievable!  He talked about the future and started to plan for a holiday.  We spent more time together during that couple of weeks that we had for months.  He really got me fooled.  All the time, I think he knew he would be leaving for good because by then he had already met the replacement.  I am not sure whether he had actually cheated on me by then, but I suspect he had.  A woman had answered his phone during the previous separation and he had told me it was a friend that I knew.  I believed him at the time and thought it strange that she hadn't spoken to me but hung up.  Now I think how stupid I was ... .of course it was the replacement.

The only explanation I have is that these people are sneaky and untrustworthy and only have feelings for themselves.  They will do and say anything to anybody to get what they want.  I really think they know exactly what they are doing and take pleasure from the pain and trouble that they cause.

They are not normal because normal people could not behave like that.

[merlin4926]

I suppose when I was with him I saw him 'work' other people and he 'worked me' to get me to leave my partner and give up my whole life for him.  Just find it hard reconciling this side of him with the man who often spent days on his own in his flat raging and crying and not being capable of anything

[Blimblam]

It's not planned or calculated

It's a set of deeply entrenched defense mechanisms triggered by fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment.

[Pou]

my view is that, PDs are functional human beings and that was one of my post before regarding why are we excusing them for committing horrible acts.  We don't let bully get away with things.  We lock up people who provoke fights or so called disorderly conducts.  So why do PDs get away with so much … "oh, s/he has PD, nothing we can do."  I think the fact that they are calculating and functional, tells me that they pick their targets (nons) and then they systematically hurt and abuse, they do it because it probably help them derive some kind of pleasure.  As twisted as it sounds, if they feel sorry or bad, they would not do it again and again. 

[merlin4926]

Blimblam - how do they do it so efficiently when they aren't that way normally. My ex couldn't get himself to the doctors or even see friends and then when he moved on he seemed totally fine and able to cope.

Pou i try and remind myself "hurt people hurt others" (can't remember where I read this but it struck a chord)

[maxen]

My ex couldn't get himself to the doctors or even see friends and then when he moved on he seemed totally fine and able to cope.

hi merlin4926. this is a hugely painful aspect of r/ss with pwBPD. it was true in my instance too. as a spouse, my wife was a catastrophe as a housemate, yet as soon as she bolted she was all over everything. where was this person when i was married to her? well, that's at the core of the BPD condition. it's an attachment disorder, and the behavior patterns of pwBPD when in close emotional proximity are utterly different than when at some emotional distance. unable to supplete their own emotional emptiness they turn to others to be their caretakers; my wife more or less explicitly thought that was my job as a husband. when i wouldn't give her the endless support she required, she bolted.

my wife has friends who have known her for decades and have no idea what she's like in a relationship, apart from the fact that she's never been able to hold one. i haven't been able to turn to them because they just think "the marriage was unhappy," and i'm losing them in the divorce too. she has had a very successful professional career, and her workmates i'm sure would be gobsmacked to hear my stories. but i saw it all, and you did too merlin. it's not calculated in a self-aware sense. they feel their needs and move to fulfill them. a friend isn't in the same category as a lover, and a pwBPD won't have the same expectations from a friend what they would from a lover.

try please not to compare what you had with what your ex has now. it's not at all impossible that his new relationship will fall into a BPD pattern as it develops. but that won't be yours to worry over! do you have a social network to help you over?

[Blimblam]

Blimblam - how do they do it so efficiently when they aren't that way normally. My ex couldn't get himself to the doctors or even see friends and then when he moved on he seemed totally fine and able to cope.

Pou i try and remind myself "hurt people hurt others" (can't remember where I read this but it struck a chord)

Bpd is often characterized as an attachment disorder. So it has to do with them finding a sense of self through others which provide them with stability in as you have noticed unhealthy ways.

The pwBPD can likely be suffering with a number of other comorbidities.

Remember something truamatized them severely when the were young that made them this way.  The disorder is a product of environment. This raises the the question of do we blame the person or the factors that leads to the environment that creates such disorders?

This is no way to excuse the behaviors. 

They are concious beings acting on unconcious impulses governed by what we call the disorder.

We "nons" are also driven by unconcious impulses but have a greater capacity of self awareness even still many often stay in these toxic situations for years.

We can choose to become self aware with practice.

With self awareness we can identify behaviors that threaten to compromise our self and avoid those interactions.  To do so we may have to make sacrifices like not taking on a dream job or letting to of our "soul mate".

It is what it is.

[Waifed]

It's not planned or calculated

It's a set of deeply entrenched defense mechanisms triggered by fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment.

I think this is probably dead on.  My ex had severe engulfment issues.  She had been married but didn't even live with her husband when I met her.  She actually didn't even tell her parents she was married.  She said it was an arranged marriage to help him through some things, but I believe it was an impulsive act and she was afraid to cut ties.  I caught her cheating after I got sick (from the craziness) and stayed home from work for a several weeks (she worked for me).  I had lost my focus on her and I believe it triggered her fear of abandonment.  The fear of abandonment really kicked up after I told her I was going to leave her for cheating.  In the month that we were together after she cheated she became a different person.  She would cling so tight when we were together, but was beginning to date other people secretly while we were apart.  She would also be distant at times and much more overtly controlling. I literally couldn't leave the room without her following me.  I couldn't even sleep with my back towards her and she had to be touching me at all times.  

Her persona also began to fluctuate from someone I knew to someone I had never met.  Once I left she pretty much accepted it and moved on but had desperate moments mixed in at times.  If I saw her she would beg me to spend time with her and then would vanish again.  I realize now that she was trying to move on but didn't want to loose her attachment to me.  She actually asked me if I would continue to see her even if I got married to someone.  

It was so strange and difficult to comprehend since I had no idea about BPD at the time.  It is much clearer now that the chance of a successful relationship with her is not possible and she knows it.  She is just trying to get through life one day at a time attached to anyone that will fulfill her need and not trigger her engulfment/abandonment fears too much.  Once that happens she will move on again.  It is really a sad existence, but there is nothing any of us can do about it. How someone can live like that and not want to better themselves is beyond me.  When you get right down to it she is just a piece of ___ of a person.  She breaks almost every rule of trust between someone she is supposed to care about.  She doesn't want to probably but she can not help herself.  Her needs trump everything else.  

[hurting300]

I don't know how they can do it, but I am sure they do plan to leave and how they will leave.

My ex really got things in order before he left.  He made sure he took all his stuff from my home (we were living separately by then) and he made sure he had copies of all important paperwork.  I did not realise at the time that he was taking all these things.  He did it bit by bit over a few weeks.  A couple of weeks before the end, we had split up for a few days.  I think he realised during that time that he needed some things and came back purely for the purpose of getting what he needed.

The act he put on during the last couple of weeks he spent with me was unbelievable!  He talked about the future and started to plan for a holiday.  We spent more time together during that couple of weeks that we had for months.  He really got me fooled.  All the time, I think he knew he would be leaving for good because by then he had already met the replacement.  I am not sure whether he had actually cheated on me by then, but I suspect he had.  A woman had answered his phone during the previous separation and he had told me it was a friend that I knew.  I believed him at the time and thought it strange that she hadn't spoken to me but hung up.  Now I think how stupid I was ... .of course it was the replacement.

The only explanation I have is that these people are sneaky and untrustworthy and only have feelings for themselves.  They will do and say anything to anybody to get what they want.  I really think they know exactly what they are doing and take pleasure from the pain and trouble that they cause.

They are not normal because normal people could not behave like that.

popcorn... .That brought tears to my eyes... this is how my ex girlfriend left me. Little by little pretending that everything was perfect then while I was at work she vanished.

[hurting300]

my view is that, PDs are functional human beings and that was one of my post before regarding why are we excusing them for committing horrible acts.  We don't let bully get away with things.  We lock up people who provoke fights or so called disorderly conducts.  So why do PDs get away with so much … "oh, s/he has PD, nothing we can do."  I think the fact that they are calculating and functional, tells me that they pick their targets (nons) and then they systematically hurt and abuse, they do it because it probably help them derive some kind of pleasure.  As twisted as it sounds, if they feel sorry or bad, they would not do it again and again. 

Fact: In the USA you can not use personality disorders as an insanity defense. They are not insane. They know what they are doing.

[merlin4926]

Thanks everyone. I am doing well at the moment but now that I'm more rational and less emotionally driven I find myself needing more answers about "how" he manages to do this too people which at least is better than being an emotional wreck over why he hurt me so much.  I do now realise it's nothing to do with me. 

just unfortunate for me that I ever got in a relationship with him - it was never going to work and actually the fact I got out alive is a blessing! I'll be ok in time and he won't be

[Waifed]

I don't know how they can do it, but I am sure they do plan to leave and how they will leave.

My ex really got things in order before he left.  He made sure he took all his stuff from my home (we were living separately by then) and he made sure he had copies of all important paperwork.  I did not realise at the time that he was taking all these things.  He did it bit by bit over a few weeks.  A couple of weeks before the end, we had split up for a few days.  I think he realised during that time that he needed some things and came back purely for the purpose of getting what he needed.

The act he put on during the last couple of weeks he spent with me was unbelievable!  He talked about the future and started to plan for a holiday.  We spent more time together during that couple of weeks that we had for months.  He really got me fooled.  All the time, I think he knew he would be leaving for good because by then he had already met the replacement.  I am not sure whether he had actually cheated on me by then, but I suspect he had.  A woman had answered his phone during the previous separation and he had told me it was a friend that I knew.  I believed him at the time and thought it strange that she hadn't spoken to me but hung up.  Now I think how stupid I was ... .of course it was the replacement.

The only explanation I have is that these people are sneaky and untrustworthy and only have feelings for themselves.  They will do and say anything to anybody to get what they want.  I really think they know exactly what they are doing and take pleasure from the pain and trouble that they cause.

They are not normal because normal people could not behave like that.

Popcorn,

I don't think it is all planned.  I believe that he was torn.  I don't think it was an act.  He was feeling what he was feeling about you at that moment in time.  He was triggered and engulfed but wanted to be with you.  If you could have magically become indifferent towards him at that time his fears possibly could have subsided but your desperation was probably very apparent and swallowing to him.  That is why indifference is probably the only way to have a "successful" relationship with a pwBPD.  No one wants a relationship like that.  I think they don't want to leave you but know they have too escape the relationship because they become too attached to you.  They lose themselves.  Because they have to be with someone they move forward with the next person, never truly detaching from the person they leave.  It is cruel to us, but it is simply survival for them.  Their needs come first and always will unless they somehow become aware that they need help  and commit themselves to getting better.  

[Pou]

My ex couldn't get himself to the doctors or even see friends and then when he moved on he seemed totally fine and able to cope.

hi merlin4926. this is a hugely painful aspect of r/ss with pwBPD. it was true in my instance too. as a spouse, my wife was a catastrophe as a housemate, yet as soon as she bolted she was all over everything. where was this person when i was married to her? well, that's at the core of the BPD condition. it's an attachment disorder, and the behavior patterns of pwBPD when in close emotional proximity are utterly different than when at some emotional distance. unable to supplete their own emotional emptiness they turn to others to be their caretakers; my wife more or less explicitly thought that was my job as a husband. when i wouldn't give her the endless support she required, she bolted.

my wife has friends who have known her for decades and have no idea what she's like in a relationship, apart from the fact that she's never been able to hold one. i haven't been able to turn to them because they just think "the marriage was unhappy," and i'm losing them in the divorce too. she has had a very successful professional career, and her workmates i'm sure would be gobsmacked to hear my stories. but i saw it all, and you did too merlin. it's not calculated in a self-aware sense. they feel their needs and move to fulfill them. a friend isn't in the same category as a lover, and a pwBPD won't have the same expectations from a friend what they would from a lover.

try please not to compare what you had with what your ex has now. it's not at all impossible that his new relationship will fall into a BPD pattern as it develops. but that won't be yours to worry over! do you have a social network to help you over?

Maxen, my uNPDw is pretty successful with what she does and yes, I don't think anyone who knows of her could imagine what she is like in our relationship.  In addition, she goes into this sporadic mood of smear campaign.  And she has this persistent "hate" towards me.  We have zero physical intimacy.  She goes all weird and belligerent when it is our anniversary.  I used to get her flowers, jewelry and gifts for the past 16 years that we have been together.  This year, as usual, I got my card and present ready and then I saw her in the morning, she wouldn't look me in the eye and refused to talk to me ... and she had this mad look on her face for the morning … when I asked out to celebrate, she simply didn't answer… and ignored me.  Strange, eh?  I mean, if she dislike me so much, I rather have her just tell me … i know she has been going behind my back and put on smear campaign... nothing I can do.  It is one of those things, the more you try to explain, the worse it looks to others.  So this year, I held back the presents and the card … not too hard … in the past, when I give her gifts and card, she never reciprocated it.  One time, I asked her why couldn't she get me a card or something small, she went on a rage telling me in anniversary, only man gets woman gift and card.  I told her, all I wanted to know is that she appreciates me and that our relationship is good … boy, was I stupid?   Was this planned by her to hurt me on our anniversary?  Probably.  Does it make any sense?  no, does not make any sense.  why would you want to spend time with someone who you deliberately want to hurt and what kind of experience could she possibly get in return?  Simple, perhaps she is probably living in a script that her parents lived through… that is all I can figure it out. 

[fred6]

it's an attachment disorder, and the behavior patterns of pwBPD when in close emotional proximity are utterly different than when at some emotional distance.

So in a sense, my replacement may have a more successful relationship with my uxBPD than I did. All due to the fact that I moved in with her and was in close emotional proximity. New supply on the other hand lives 1.6 miles away and has his own place.

That's disturbing and interesting at the same time, wow... .

[Deeno02]

I dont know Fred6. We each had our own households to run, but i caught so much crap for not seeing her at the drop of a hat, or i didnt plan something. Neverending. I lived about 4 blocks away, Replacement lives a town over. No rhyme or reason.

[Recooperating]

it's an attachment disorder, and the behavior patterns of pwBPD when in close emotional proximity are utterly different than when at some emotional distance.

So in a sense, my replacement may have a more successful relationship with my uxBPD than I did. All due to the fact that I moved in with her and was in close emotional proximity. New supply on the other hand lives 1.6 miles away and has his own place.

That's disturbing and interesting at the same time, wow... .

NOPE! I was in a long distance relationship with mine. Got the same crap, maybe even more because I was at a distance so the abandonment issues are greater... .

I got all the crap over skype and text and when I would visit him. Every other day crap, crap, crap! I think I lasted 2 years because he was at a distance and I had somewhat of a life without him. (Although he manipulated me into skype sessions for over 10 hrs a day!) where was my head at! Every time I would go see a friend, go to work, see my parents he would freak out. He literally wantes me to be his entertainer 24/7.

Your replacement will get the same bs you did, if not worse!

[fred6]

it's an attachment disorder, and the behavior patterns of pwBPD when in close emotional proximity are utterly different than when at some emotional distance.

So in a sense, my replacement may have a more successful relationship with my uxBPD than I did. All due to the fact that I moved in with her and was in close emotional proximity. New supply on the other hand lives 1.6 miles away and has his own place.

That's disturbing and interesting at the same time, wow... .

NOPE! I was in a long distance relationship with mine. Got the same crap, maybe even more because I was at a distance so the abandonment issues are greater... .

I got all the crap over skype and text and when I would visit him. Every other day crap, crap, crap! I think I lasted 2 years because he was at a distance and I had somewhat of a life without him. (Although he manipulated me into skype sessions for over 10 hrs a day!) where was my head at! Every time I would go see a friend, go to work, see my parents he would freak out. He literally wantes me to be his entertainer 24/7.

Your replacement will get the same bs you did, if not worse!

I guess it's a double edged sword. It seems to me that if she was feeling engulfed or triggered with me, she had nowhere to go. Whereas if she's feeling engulfed or triggered with new supply, she can just go home and cool her jets.

She did make it 3 years with me living with her, but all or her prior relationships for the past 10 years didn't make it past 6 months and none of them lived with her as far as I know.

One disturbing thing she said though. After she split from me, it took me two months to actually be gone. Sometime around the one month mark she told me that, "I'm just going to stay with my parents until you move out". That bothered my so badly and I still don't understand it. Seems that she couldn't wait for me to be gone. She wasted 3 years of my life, and probably 4 or more with recovery time. And she couldn't wait a couple months for me to find a place to live. Simply incredible!

[tim_tom]

Not planned or calculated. They attach to their next "prince charming" with the best intentions... .this one will be different. I've finally found the a perfect person for me!

Unfortunately that very deep and seemingly instant idolization is what sets the stage for the relationship failure. They build you up in their head as some perfect partner and the minute reality gets in the way and disproves the fantasy, they act out like the emotionally stunted children they are.

Having 2 children, the inherent egocentric, volatile and self centered behavior was very similar to my exBPD.  If I buy my kids a gift they wanted I'm father of the year, if I make them stop playing a video game to do their homework... I'm the worst father ever

Such is life with pwBPD. They are children. Attempting to have a mature, healthy and adult relationship with them isn't possible, not without them seeking to understand what drives them in therapy


Obviously the abandonment/engulment issues play a role here, but I honestly feel the above is the primary catalyst, they have expectations that can't be met by a mere mortal

[hurting300]

They have poor impulse control so who knows. I believe my ex planned it.

[maxen]

it's an attachment disorder, and the behavior patterns of pwBPD when in close emotional proximity are utterly different than when at some emotional distance.

So in a sense, my replacement may have a more successful relationship with my uxBPD than I did. All due to the fact that I moved in with her and was in close emotional proximity. New supply on the other hand lives 1.6 miles away and has his own place.

That's disturbing and interesting at the same time, wow... .

close emotional proximity - he may have his own place, but she may develop the same place for him in her life that she did for you. and if he's the replacement, that's likely.

[Deeno02]

I was dropped like a bad habit and shes on to the next guy. Not sure how that happened so damn quick. Maybe I dont want to know. That was a month ago. 15 days N/C. I love her still. And it hurts bad. I wish she would contact me, but pray that she doesnt. I dont know, this is so confusing on how they really, really, really, dont care if you exist or not. Im still so very sad.

[merlin4926]

Deeono2 it does get easier it's very early days.  I didn't think i would survive but do you know what? - I am happy more often than I'm sad now.  Still miss him and think about the what ifs but now so many other things are coming into my life - better things and things will for you too. Be kind to yourself x

[Deeno02]

Deeono2 it does get easier it's very early days.  I didn't think i would survive but do you know what? - I am happy more often than I'm sad now.  Still miss him and think about the what ifs but now so many other things are coming into my life - better things and things will for you too. Be kind to yourself x

Im trying to. I really am. Fortunately there has been no run ins, but Ive been keeping my distance from a lot of things. Unfortunately she coaches my sons VB team so that's on the horizon in a couple months. So not looking forward to that... .