I have stopped caring

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have been posting mainly on the staying board and have posted some on the undecided board.

I recently posted a thread about not wanting to hear about him any more. I found that all of the responses that I got irritated me. That bothered me because I know that what they are saying is what will be needed in order to stay. However, as I read the responses about how to stay and make things better, I found myself thinking, "I don't care enough to jump through all of these hoops." Everything is about how I need to change myself and do all of this stuff to change the dynamic between us. The more I read and study, the more I think, "I have been working on myself for years. I have been a part of a whole lot of discussions where people are very quick to point out a person's weaknesses and inadequacies." I feel like I am very self aware. I grew up in a dysfunctional home and am no stranger to dealing with people that have mental illnesses. Heck, I have been to counseling before. When I called a therapist for a consultation, she said things should be pretty easy for me because I know what I want and I know how the process works.

So, I guess my questions is, "At what point do you just know that there is nothing left?" I have been reading through the different lessons on all of the different boards. I feel like I have been trying to get to a place where I can feel those loving feelings towards my husband. We have been married for 16.5 years and have been together for almost 18 years. When he went away for a couple of days, the kids and I were all sad because he was coming home so soon.

Since we have been together for so long and have 4 kids together, I am really afraid to leave. I don't know how things would work financially and I don't want to traumatize the kids any more than they already have been. I don't really see my husband as a danger. He is depressed, checked out, and unavailable. He spends almost all of his spare time gaming. He is a sex addict that is on his fourth step and he is seeing a therapist but I am not impressed and really just don't give a flying f**k right now. I feel so unbelievably detached already.

[vortex of confusion]

I have been posting mainly on the staying board and have posted some on the undecided board.

I recently posted a thread about not wanting to hear about him any more. I found that all of the responses that I got irritated me. That bothered me because I know that what they are saying is what will be needed in order to stay. However, as I read the responses about how to stay and make things better, I found myself thinking, "I don't care enough to jump through all of these hoops." Everything is about how I need to change myself and do all of this stuff to change the dynamic between us. The more I read and study, the more I think, "I have been working on myself for years. I have been a part of a whole lot of discussions where people are very quick to point out a person's weaknesses and inadequacies." I feel like I am very self aware. I grew up in a dysfunctional home and am no stranger to dealing with people that have mental illnesses. Heck, I have been to counseling before. When I called a therapist for a consultation, she said things should be pretty easy for me because I know what I want and I know how the process works.

So, I guess my questions is, "At what point do you just know that there is nothing left?" I have been reading through the different lessons on all of the different boards. I feel like I have been trying to get to a place where I can feel those loving feelings towards my husband. We have been married for 16.5 years and have been together for almost 18 years. When he went away for a couple of days, the kids and I were all sad because he was coming home so soon.

Since we have been together for so long and have 4 kids together, I am really afraid to leave. I don't know how things would work financially and I don't want to traumatize the kids any more than they already have been. I don't really see my husband as a danger. He is depressed, checked out, and unavailable. He spends almost all of his spare time gaming. He is a sex addict that is on his fourth step and he is seeing a therapist but I am not impressed and really just don't give a flying f**k right now. I feel so unbelievably detached already.

[patientandclear]

 Vortex ... .That makes total sense to me. I too spent a lot of time on Staying and I did my level best to transform myself into a sort of unhurt-able person.  In the end what I concluded was that a r/ship in which I could expect nothing and couldn't share my core truths without risking everything, was not worth the effort. And the process of transforming myself into a person who could succeed at staying was itself damaging.

I read your current thread on Staying before seeing this one and had the same reaction to the advice you were receiving.

Seems to me you've got on your hands a r/ship with someone who would be far down the list of people you would choose to spend your life with if you have the chance to choose that person again today. That is an important realization that can't just be ignored.

Wishing you strength and self-confidence. I think your kids' disappointment that their dad was 't gone longer tells you all you need to know about whether they will be traumatized by you leaving, if you do. Your choice will make sense to them.

[fred6]

However, as I read the responses about how to stay and make things better, I found myself thinking, "I don't care enough to jump through all of these hoops." Everything is about how I need to change myself and do all of this stuff to change the dynamic between us.

When my uxBPDgf was breaking up with me. I suggested going to counseling/therapy and she told me that she didn't want me to change for her. I was like What the heck? I'm trying to work things out. She just cheated on me and "flipped the switch". She just wanted me gone ASAP and the relationship wasn't that bad as far as I was concerned. However, there were red flags all along the way. Hard to figure out. Stay strong. I'm trying my best... .

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex ... .That makes total sense to me. I too spent a lot of time on Staying and I did my level best to transform myself into a sort of unhurt-able person.  In the end what I concluded was that a r/ship in which I could expect nothing and couldn't share my core truths without risking everything, was not worth the effort. And the process of transforming myself into a person who could succeed at staying was itself damaging.

Thank you so much for your response. That is exactly where I am at with regards to the relationship. What is the point of staying in a relationship where I am the one that is expected to change and get little, if anything in return. I feel like I would have to become somebody I am not in order to make things work. I know how to stand up for myself and take charge. In my ideal world, I wouldn't have to stand up for myself in a relationship with somebody that supposedly loves me.

Seems to me you've got on your hands a r/ship with someone who would be far down the list of people you would choose to spend your life with if you have the chance to choose that person again today. That is an important realization that can't just be ignored.

I would not choose him again. We have four really awesome daughters together but that is about it. I cannot imagine spending the rest of my life with him. In all honesty, I have to take things one day at a time with him because I don't see much of a future together. He has no ambition. When I get excited about things, he seems to find ways to kill the excitement.

Wishing you strength and self-confidence. I think your kids' disappointment that their dad was 't gone longer tells you all you need to know about whether they will be traumatized by you leaving, if you do. Your choice will make sense to them.

Thanks again! When I left for work today, our oldest said, "Wish me luck with dad today!" She butts heads with her dad a lot because she wants him to be an adult and a dad and not to flip out over stuff. I know she pushes his buttons on purpose at times but he is an adult and should be able to handle it. None of the kids really trust him. I was talking to the kids the other day and they said that they don't trust dad. He isn't going to hurt them but he isn't going to listen to them in a non-judgmental way and he certainly isn't going to act like the adult.

[Pingo]

Vortex, I found these boards after I asked my uBPDexh to move out.  I focused mostly on the leaving board as that was where I was.  But after a few weeks when the numbness wore off I went into deep grief and I began to doubt my decision.  I wondered if I had given up too soon.  Did I really try?  What if I had just learned more skills, been less reactive?  What if I had dealt more with my own FOO issues and become stronger, etc, etc.  Then I went on the staying board.  And it didn't take me long reading through the threads to realise I had made the right decision.  I had to ask myself, is this really how I see myself living for the rest of my life?  Always caretaking to his disorder?  Never knowing what would set him off next.  Would I ever be able to have real joy in that life?  Because I sure didn't have much joy for the good part of our r/s.  I had lost any passion for life.

It must be a very difficult decision to make when you have children together.  We didn't, we have children from previous marriages and his were grown up already.  But I do have to say that since he's been gone (4 mths now) everyone here is breathing a little easier, no more walking on eggshells. There is sadness and grief (my s10 is still quite confused by the whole thing) but there is hope also and light at the end of the tunnel.  Hope this helps a little.

[patientandclear]

In my ideal world, I wouldn't have to stand up for myself in a relationship with somebody that supposedly loves me.

This might be the single most insightful thing I've read in several years here. Thank you.

[Inside]

None of the kids really trust him. I was talking to the kids the other day and they said that they don't trust dad. He isn't going to hurt them but he isn't going to listen to them in a non-judgmental way and he certainly isn't going to act like the adult.

That description tells me you’re their Rock.  I had a nearly 3 decade marriage with an anxiety plagued wife (prior to my BPD experience).  It felt as though I’d carried her, then our two daughters through life.  As our daughters matured, their mother remained mired in her disorder, apparently coming to resent the girls dependence on me.  I’d been an ‘at home dad,’ and admit eventually realizing our girls were a far better investment than their mother… :'(

The marriage ended with her taking, then demanding assets after leaving her daughters and me.  Finding work (beyond the farm) in 2007 was terrifying, but we’ve survived.  And you would/ will too.  The ‘system’ is set up to cover breakups, there’s help out there…  And it sounds as though you’re already carrying the load.

Worried about my daughters social condition regarding a divorce, my oldest assured me she’d be fine, saying, “Now I can join the club,” “I’ve been the only one of my friends who still lives where they were born and whose parents are still married.”  My girls and I have only become closer.

Down side, for me - my next r/s was with a ‘high functioning’ BPD… which has led me here  

Children are resilient, they have to be.  And they’re smart!  Though they may regret a break, it seems no doubt they’ll understand.  And with time, as with mine, they will understand even more... .  Your husband’s already checked out, and your daughters don’t need ... that as an example of manhood or acceptable behavior.  Whatever hardships you or your daughters endure, the true loser is him… 

Stay strong – and welcome to ‘this side’ 

[vortex of confusion]

In my ideal world, I wouldn't have to stand up for myself in a relationship with somebody that supposedly loves me.

This might be the single most insightful thing I've read in several years here. Thank you.

You are quite welcome. That is the thing that I can't seem to wrap my mind around. Yeah, sure, everybody needs to be able to protect him/herself. I can do that without too much trouble. Not much scares me. However, I do not like the idea of living with somebody and being in a relationship with somebody that I have to protect myself from because he does not respect my boundaries and does not want to invest in the relationship.

Sorry, I should not have to change myself any more than I have already changed. In all honesty, I don't know what is left to change. I feel like the only thing that I could change or do to be able to stay with my husband in the long run is to change my entire perception of what it means to be in a relationship. I would have to completely rethink everything. I would have to be able to accept the fact that I will always be in a one sided relationship and that I will have to accomodate him and his triggers for the rest of my life while he can't even listen to little bitty things and remember them.

[peiper]

I have been posting mainly on the staying board and have posted some on the undecided board.

I recently posted a thread about not wanting to hear about him any more. I found that all of the responses that I got irritated me. That bothered me because I know that what they are saying is what will be needed in order to stay. However, as I read the responses about how to stay and make things better, I found myself thinking, "I don't care enough to jump through all of these hoops." Everything is about how I need to change myself and do all of this stuff to change the dynamic between us. The more I read and study, the more I think, "I have been working on myself for years. I have been a part of a whole lot of discussions where people are very quick to point out a person's weaknesses and inadequacies." I feel like I am very self aware. I grew up in a dysfunctional home and am no stranger to dealing with people that have mental illnesses. Heck, I have been to counseling before. When I called a therapist for a consultation, she said things should be pretty easy for me because I know what I want and I know how the process works.

So, I guess my questions is, "At what point do you just know that there is nothing left?" I have been reading through the different lessons on all of the different boards. I feel like I have been trying to get to a place where I can feel those loving feelings towards my husband. We have been married for 16.5 years and have been together for almost 18 years. When he went away for a couple of days, the kids and I were all sad because he was coming home so soon.

Since we have been together for so long and have 4 kids together, I am really afraid to leave. I don't know how things would work financially and I don't want to traumatize the kids any more than they already have been. I don't really see my husband as a danger. He is depressed, checked out, and unavailable. He spends almost all of his spare time gaming. He is a sex addict that is on his fourth step and he is seeing a therapist but I am not impressed and really just don't give a flying f**k right now. I feel so unbelievably detached already.

I jumped through so many of her hoops I could jump over my house right now ! I finally got sick and tired of it and just quit, that's when everything went bad to worse. It was around that time she found her boyfriend. She's gone now with him, I hope for good. I still hurt, but not as bad as when she was here. I too am facing some money problems, but Ill figure it out ! Hang in there 

[vortex of confusion]

That description tells me you’re their Rock.  I had a nearly 3 decade marriage with an anxiety plagued wife (prior to my BPD experience).  It felt as though I’d carried her, then our two daughters through life.  As our daughters matured, their mother remained mired in her disorder, apparently coming to resent the girls dependence on me.  I’d been an ‘at home dad,’ and admit eventually realizing our girls were a far better investment than their mother… :'(

Yes, I am very much their rock. They say little things to me all the time. One of the girls was wanting something and I was able to figure out how to get it for her. She told me, "Mom, I don't know why I ever doubted you." But, I know why she doubted me. She doubted me because she is used to being let down by other people. I sometimes let her down too but I usually try to explain it to her. I can be more rational and more logical with the kids than I can be with him. Heck, the girls are so much more self aware. They have a lot of issues with anxiety and I help them through it. My oldest has a bit of OCD and anxiety. The 10 year old has a lot of anxiety issues. The younger two don't seem to have as many issues yet but I can definitely see some patterns in their behavior at times. I do not think that it is humanly possible for me to take care of the kids while simulatneously making sure that I don't set him off. There was a period of time when him and the kids would fight over me. The more clingy he got, the more clingy the kids got.

The marriage ended with her taking, then demanding assets after leaving her daughters and me.  Finding work (beyond the farm) in 2007 was terrifying, but we’ve survived.  And you would/ will too.  The ‘system’ is set up to cover breakups, there’s help out there…  And it sounds as though you’re already carrying the load.

He is still bringing in the bulk of the money. But, I do work two part time jobs. One of them allows me to stay home and set my own hours. The other one is only 12 hours a week. In all other aspects, I carry the load. I got the second part time at the beginning of the year because I know that I will need more work experience in order to get back into my profession full time. But, the kids will need to be a little bit older before I can work full time again. I have all of this going on in my head and am slowly working towards being able to do everything on my own. It will take time but I do need to find ways to maintain my sanity.

Children are resilient, they have to be.  And they’re smart!  Though they may regret a break, it seems no doubt they’ll understand.  And with time, as with mine, they will understand even more... .  Your husband’s already checked out, and your daughters don’t need ... that as an example of manhood or acceptable behavior.  Whatever hardships you or your daughters endure, the true loser is him… 

My girls are amazing human beings. I am sure that everyone says that about their kids. :-) I feel like my kids are wise beyond their years. I think all of us girls are in the same boat to some degree. I think we are afraid of him getting hurt if I were to ask him to leave. It is likely that he would hurt himself. I understand why my kids don't want that. They do love their dad. They just don't like him. My oldest has said on several occasions that she wished she had a strong male figure in her life. And, the girls have said that I am like the mom and the dad all rolled into one. I fix booboos and bikes and computers and pretty much anything else that needs done.

He can't even be depended on to stick to a grocery list. The girls and I were so mad this evening. I made a grocery list for him. While I was making the list, I was asking the girls what kinds of healthy things they wanted from the grocery store. We decided on potato chips as a snack. Anyway, the older girls and I have been talking about weight and eating healthier. Both of them have complained about there being too much candy in the house. This has been something that the girls and I have been discussing for a while. He comes home from the store with a bunch of candy and a package of Oreos. Our oldest was mad. She has asked us repeatedly to stop bringing home so much candy. We love candy and can't resist it when it is in the house. I think it is reasonable to ask that somebody not bring home candy if you know you are going to be tempted. What makes me even madder is that he has Type 2 diabetes. He can't eat that stuff. So, he gets it for us under the guise of being nice. Well, it is NOT nice. I feel like he is sabatoging our efforts to eat healthier and lose a few pounds. He knows that I struggle with my weight yet he will buy stuff that is not healthy and is full of calories. It is one thing if I ask for it specifically because I have thought about whether or not I really want it. It is something completely different when I (and the kids) have repeatedly said that we don't want to have so much candy in the house.

Is that crazy or what? The kids are begging for dad to not bring home candy yet he is still doing it and then wondering why the oldest gets so mad at him. He plays it off as, "I was trying to be nice and bring home stuff I knew you would eat."

[vortex of confusion]

I jumped through so many of her hoops I could jump over my house right now ! I finally got sick and tired of it and just quit, that's when everything went bad to worse. It was around that time she found her boyfriend. She's gone now with him, I hope for good. I still hurt, but not as bad as when she was here. I too am facing some money problems, but Ill figure it out ! Hang in there 

Thanks! Hugs to you as well. 

I pretty much knew things were over in the emotion department when I thought about straying and then actually did it. Now, I am the horrible one because I have a lover/friend. Not sure what to call my friend. But, I did not stray until my husband not only encouraged it but got excited over it. I don't know that I could ever spend the rest of my life with somebody that pushed me to be with other guys and come home and tell him all about it. That is what my husband did. I met my friend when my husband was telling me to do stuff with other guys. When my husband decided that he was done with all that, I couldn't just throw my friend away. My friend spent so many nights typing back and forth to me and making me laugh. Even now, if I sent my friend a message and really needed something, he would respond as soon as he got the chance.

I have spent so many nights and mornings in my marriage crying myself to sleep because I didn't understand why my husband would choose porn or computer games or anything over spending time with me. I am not his priority and never really have been. Tonight, I tried to talk to him about our future. He tells me, "I can't think about that or worry about that. I have to take things one day at a time." I told him that I would like to know what he wants because I would like to make plans. I want something to look forward to in the future. He says he can't commit to anything. I have been hearing for the past year, "Oh, everyone says to give it a year." I have given it a year and then some. Heck, in reality, I have given him lots of years as we have been married for 16.5 years. The day after our 15th anniversary, he tried to hand pick a guy for me to go get busy with. He couldn't take me out or even set things up so we could watch the video of our wedding but he could tell me to go do this other guy.

Wow, I am rambling now!

[peiper]

Sometimes we need to ramble 

[going places]

I have been posting mainly on the staying board and have posted some on the undecided board.

I recently posted a thread about not wanting to hear about him any more. I found that all of the responses that I got irritated me. That bothered me because I know that what they are saying is what will be needed in order to stay. However, as I read the responses about how to stay and make things better, I found myself thinking, "I don't care enough to jump through all of these hoops." Everything is about how I need to change myself and do all of this stuff to change the dynamic between us. The more I read and study, the more I think, "I have been working on myself for years. I have been a part of a whole lot of discussions where people are very quick to point out a person's weaknesses and inadequacies." I feel like I am very self aware. I grew up in a dysfunctional home and am no stranger to dealing with people that have mental illnesses. Heck, I have been to counseling before. When I called a therapist for a consultation, she said things should be pretty easy for me because I know what I want and I know how the process works.

So, I guess my questions is, "At what point do you just know that there is nothing left?" I have been reading through the different lessons on all of the different boards. I feel like I have been trying to get to a place where I can feel those loving feelings towards my husband. We have been married for 16.5 years and have been together for almost 18 years. When he went away for a couple of days, the kids and I were all sad because he was coming home so soon.

Since we have been together for so long and have 4 kids together, I am really afraid to leave. I don't know how things would work financially and I don't want to traumatize the kids any more than they already have been. I don't really see my husband as a danger. He is depressed, checked out, and unavailable. He spends almost all of his spare time gaming. He is a sex addict that is on his fourth step and he is seeing a therapist but I am not impressed and really just don't give a flying f**k right now. I feel so unbelievably detached already.

How do you know nothing is left?

When he goes somewhere, and you wished he'd stay gone longer.

When you go somewhere, and the closer you get to home, you tense up, feel sick, wish you were somewhere else.

When you vomit after sex.

When the THOUGHT of him touching you hits your gag reflex.

When you can not imagine growing old with him.

When you would rather work 2 jobs and eat bologna than to stay.

My personal biggest fear of leaving was:

How am I going to make it? I'm just a waitress / bartender?

How will this effect the kids? Will this damage them? Will they turn away from God?

Now?

As soon as this house sells, me and the kids are packing up and heading 5 states away... .to a place where we know no one, don't have jobs lined up, and don't have housing lined up.

But I have Faith, it will all work out.

And that's how bad and how far I want to be away from him.

25 years... .and nothing but abuse and lies.

I want as far away as I can get.

I didn't want my kids to think that their parents relationship was 'normal'.

It was NOT normal.

And *I* was not changing. Again.

They watched me turn into someone, I am not, FOR HIM, and they hated it.

I hated it.

They know things are jacked up and 'not how they are supposed to be' (us divorced) BUT they KNOW that me staying with him would have been infinitely worse.

They do not respect him (because the of evil things he did / does) and they do not look to him for advice / guidance, etc... .because he never matured past the age of 13.

I divorced and threw him out, and will be getting as far away from him as I can to show my kids (2 girls and a boy) that his behavior is NOT normal, that relationship was NOT normal, and do not accept either AS normal.

[Inside]

I do not think that it is humanly possible for me to take care of the kids while simulatneously making sure that I don't set him off. There was a period of time when him and the kids would fight over me. The more clingy he got, the more clingy the kids got.

I remember those days … everything to everyone - while losing yourself in the process…  Well, anxiety was a lot easier to deal with than BPD, but when/ if anxiety becomes acute, or it’s dumped on any one person, no matter what their strength, something’s going to break.

Your husband sounds like a child, which is where BPD leaves them, in a perpetual childhood; no self discipline, fascinated with being naughty, requiring immediate gratification and constant attention.  Apparently they can play the role of an adult only so long …long enough to hook us … as they soon become ‘our child’ as well, and the one that never grows up

When looking toward the future, regarding BPD, I often fall back on descriptions by parents having posted around here (and only hope they don’t venture onto this side of the forum)…  with their descriptions I now envision those one-time adolescents having (physically) grown to adulthood yet maintaining the same level of disorder, shame and fear that tormented their youth.  And though some (like your husband) find someone exceptionally strong and tolerant, as their BPD behavior continues to dictate their lives … how can it ever get better?  How could or will it end?  How long before you snap, or he disappears... ?  

Having lost a longtime marriage, and in the process of losing a century farm, I’ve begun to view my kids as all I’ll have to show for life.  They’ve kept me alive…  Fully aware of the opportunities I passed while staying devoted to a disordered wife, it’s a difficult balance between responsibly and happiness … when making the most of a bad situation appears to have merit.  

Seems the only easy suggestion is to chuck the candy in the garbage   …and keep searching for your answer, trudging toward that patch of blue  

[going places]

I remember those days … everything to everyone - while losing yourself in the process…  Well, anxiety was a lot easier to deal with than BPD, but when/ if anxiety becomes acute, or it’s dumped on any one person, no matter what their strength, something’s going to break.

And when you break... .not if... .but when you break, who will be there for you?

No one?

Someone has to be that rock for those kids.

Get out now while you still have your wits about you... .

Your husband sounds like a child, which is where BPD leaves them, in a perpetual childhood; no self discipline, fascinated with being naughty, requiring immediate gratification and constant attention.  Apparently they can play the role of an adult only so long …long enough to hook us … as they soon become ‘our child’ as well, and the one that never grows up

Brilliant.

You described my ex to a TEE!

I have often said that he never matured past 13... .

When looking toward the future, regarding BPD, I often fall back on descriptions by parents having posted around here (and only hope they don’t venture onto this side of the forum)…  with their descriptions I now envision those one-time adolescents having (physically) grown to adulthood yet maintaining the same level of disorder, shame and fear that tormented their youth.  And though some (like your husband) find someone exceptionally strong and tolerant, as their BPD behavior continues to dictate their lives … how can it ever get better?  How could or will it end?  How long before you snap, or he disappears... ?  

Agree 1000%.

Having lost a longtime marriage, and in the process of losing a century farm, I’ve begun to view my kids as all I’ll have to show for life.  They’ve kept me alive…  Fully aware of the opportunities I passed while staying devoted to a disordered wife, it’s a difficult balance between responsibly and happiness … when making the most of a bad situation appears to have merit.  

Seems the only easy suggestion is to chuck the candy in the garbage   …and keep searching for your answer, trudging toward that patch of blue  

I devoted my whole life in raising the kids right... .and it paid off.

They are AMAZING young people... .

I have no hobbies, I don't know what my interest are... .I am _______'s mom.

Now that they are young adults, I can start discovering who I am and what I like, etc.

But if I knew what I know now, and they were 10, 9 and 7?

I would have packed them up, and moved so far away... .he would have never followed or tried to see them.

He's an 'out of sight, out of mind" kinda guy.

My kids, are my everything. The reason I still draw breath.

Thank you for this amazing brilliant post.

[JohnLove]

You're not rambling Vortex... .you're decompressing. You have been under a lot of pressure for many of these years... .and your relationship is unravelling.

I feel sorry for your situation. When I first read your posts I thought you pair were into kinky stuff. I thought wow! Whatever works... .I wondered about it but I don't believe I could do that, be happy in that style of relationship... .on either side. I could see you valued your friend. I suspect it would only work for me if I saw my partner as a plaything or something... .that I wasn't truly in love with.

Now here you are... .realising that this behaviour is extremely destructive to closeness, intimacy, trust, togetherness, unity, loyalty... .

The realisation that on your wedding anniversary instead of picking that video to watch and remember and celebrate he is picking guys for you to do?. I think you already know how irrational and dysfunctional that sounds.

Whatever you decide to do. We are here for you. 

[vortex of confusion]

When he goes somewhere, and you wished he'd stay gone longer.

When you go somewhere, and the closer you get to home, you tense up, feel sick, wish you were somewhere else.

When you vomit after sex.

When the THOUGHT of him touching you hits your gag reflex.

When you can not imagine growing old with him.

When you would rather work 2 jobs and eat bologna than to stay.

Wow, it is scary that I can answer yes to most of those questions. When he went on a trip for a couple of days, the girls and I were sad that he had to come home so soon. If it weren't for the kids, I don't think I would ever want to go home. The kids and I have a lot more fun when he isn't around.

I have never vomited after sex but I am definitely left with a hollow pit in my stomach. I feel dirty after sex with him.

Sometimes, when we are sitting on the couch, he will reach out and touch me and I feel blech about it. I don't say anything to him but I will sometimes recoil a bit.

I cannot imagine growing old with him.

I would work as many jobs as necessary to be able to leave. The only reason that I haven't done anything yet is because the kids are not yet old enough to stay by themselves. He is good to have around as a token adult when I am not there.

My personal biggest fear of leaving was:

How am I going to make it? I'm just a waitress / bartender?

How will this effect the kids? Will this damage them? Will they turn away from God?

My biggest fear is how I will be able to take care of the kids on my own because they are still pretty young (oldest is 13 and youngest is 5). If nothing else, I need him as a live in babysitter and financial contributor.

Now?

As soon as this house sells, me and the kids are packing up and heading 5 states away... .to a place where we know no one, don't have jobs lined up, and don't have housing lined up.

But I have Faith, it will all work out.

And that's how bad and how far I want to be away from him.

25 years... .and nothing but abuse and lies.

I want as far away as I can get.

How did you get to that point? What did it take for you to get to a point where you wanted as far away as you can get? How old are your kids?

I didn't want my kids to think that their parents relationship was 'normal'.

It was NOT normal.

And *I* was not changing. Again.

They watched me turn into someone, I am not, FOR HIM, and they hated it.

I hated it.

I have talked to my kids about how it is not normal for a dad to act like him. I tell them stories about how my dad used to do stuff with me. Heck, they have talked to my dad and spent time with him. My oldest talks about wanting to have a real father figure in her life.

They do not respect him (because the of evil things he did / does) and they do not look to him for advice / guidance, etc... .because he never matured past the age of 13.

The girls have zero respect for their dad. He doesn't do things that are blatantly evil but he cannot be relied upon. He can't be trusted to listen and pay attention. When my oldest is having an anxiety attack, he makes things worse. And he has this habit of putting his hands on the kids a little too hard. He will grab them to redirect them. The kids will say ouch, that hurt and he will get upset and start saying that they are making it up and that he didn't touch them that hard. The last time he did that to our oldest it left a bruise. I wasn't there to see what happened. She has a bruise on her arm and he swears that he didn't touch her that hard. Like you say, it is like having a dad with the mind of a 13 year old. He does not seem to grasp that he is a parent and sitting on the computer all evening is not cool. If I say anything about it, he makes excuses and says stuff like, "I am still getting stuff for them." Yes, he is making sure that they have food but he is not stepping away from his stuff and making himself available to the kids.

I divorced and threw him out, and will be getting as far away from him as I can to show my kids (2 girls and a boy) that his behavior is NOT normal, that relationship was NOT normal, and do not accept either AS normal.

[\quote]

Where did he go when you threw him out or had you gotten beyond the point of even caring? I don't have any desire to hurt him or have him be homeless. I want him to be able to afford a place of his own and still be able to pay child support. At one point about a year ago, he told me that if I left him he would give me whatever he could afford, if anything. When he was talking suicidal thoughts a year or so ago, he would tell me that he wanted me to give his most prized valuable to a friend of ours. I was like, what about our kids?

[vortex of confusion]

You're not rambling Vortex... .you're decompressing. You have been under a lot of pressure for many of these years... .and your relationship is unravelling.

I don't even think I realized how much pressure I have been under. I have always considered myself a very strong and resourceful person. I was willing to do whatever it took to keep our relationship alive. The longer I think about things and decompress, the worse I feel. I was so busy trying to keep everyone else happy that I forgot to check in with myself and figure out what would make me happy.

I feel sorry for your situation. When I first read your posts I thought you pair were into kinky stuff. I thought wow! Whatever works... .I wondered about it but I don't believe I could do that, be happy in that style of relationship... .on either side. I could see you valued your friend. I suspect it would only work for me if I saw my partner as a plaything or something... .that I wasn't truly in love with.

I was willing to try new things. I had been reading all about spicing things up and trying new things. I have some friends that are into alternative stuff. The problem was that he would not back off and give me enough space to actually make decisions and think things through. And he would change what he wanted from day to day. One day he would want to have an open marriage and the next day he would be down on that and talk about how horrible it was. As I decompress and think about things. He only got busy with one other person one time. His big push was for me to do stuff and then come home and tell him about it. I still cannot wrap my mind around that. What happens between me and another person is between me and that other person. For him, it was all about sex and feeding his own voyeuristic tendencies. I am a one man woman. I don't want a bunch of different men. I want ONE man that is going to value me for me. I feel like my husband could plug pretty much any woman into my place. Heck, he did that a bunch of different times talking to women online. He would feed them this line of crap about how I cut him off and didn't say I love you and how I didn't do this or that or the other. He made it out to sound like he was a doting husband that had a ___ for a wife. And that is exactly how I felt. I felt like a dirty ___.

Now here you are... .realising that this behaviour is extremely destructive to closeness, intimacy, trust, togetherness, unity, loyalty... .

I don't feel like there has been an ounce of loyalty since day one. I have been thinking back on our relationship and how things progressed. When we first started hanging out together, we had both just broken up with people that we had been engaged to. He would come by my work and school all the time. It was okay at first but then it got to be too much. I wanted to have a relationship with him but I didn't want to be smothered. So, I told him that I needed a little bit of space. We weren't an item at that point. We were just friends hanging out. He acted like a wounded puppy and didn't talk to me for a while. I didn't understand what the hell happened but didn't really care that much because I was busy with work and school and living my life. I invited him to Thanksgiving that year but he declined. He was spending it with some other female friend of his.

The realisation that on your wedding anniversary instead of picking that video to watch and remember and celebrate he is picking guys for you to do?. I think you already know how irrational and dysfunctional that sounds.

I have known how irrational, crazy, and dysfunctional it was. That was on our anniversary last year. I didn't go do anybody last year but he got so excited. I think I remember him saying something along the lines of "You should really go {blank} that guy. He is pretty hot and his {blank} is rather large." I am still in shock over the fact that he did not understand why I would be upset that he said that the day after our anniversary. In the days leading up to our anniversary last year, he tells me, "I don't want you talking to anyone because it is our anniversary." Okay, fine. I didn't talk to anyone. And then, BAM, the next day he tells me to go do that? I don't know how I can experience those things and still manage to be okay with the relationship. He does that to me and I am still the one that is expected to change?

And this year on our 16th anniversary, I wanted to go on a date. I asked him to please plan a date for us. I had originally asked him to arrange babysitting. My mom, the kids, and I made those arrangements. He did not plan anything in advance. He just said, let's go out to eat and go to some thrift stores. Once we dropped the kids off, he couldn't make a decision on where to eat. The whole day kind of sucked. And then, to top it off, he starts making plans to meet one of his online friends. He is sitting there talking to me about his friend and where they can meet and what they can do. And there was even talk of him {blanking} her. And yes, those words were used. I got very, very upset. He could get excited about that chick and make plans with her without even batting an eye. With me, he tries to tell me that he can't get excited about anything and that he is depressed. Oh, but he could very easily make plans with her. He ended up not going to meet with his friend because I got so angry. If he wants us to see other people after being married for 15 years, so be it but at least have the friggin' decency to NOT try to talk to me about it. Please, just please, don't bring up these other women and get so excited about them. I do NOT want to hear about it. I do NOT want to tell my husband about my relationship with my friend. That is between me and my friend.

And my husband does not seem to understand that I want to be in a relationship where my partner acts like he is proud to be my partner. I want somebody to say, "hey, this is my wife/friend/girlfriend and I want to be the only one that takes her to bed at night." I have thought about some of the relationships that I had before my husband. There was no doubt in my mind that my first fiance wanted me and was proud to call me his girlfriend/fiance. He would go to nudey bars and it didn't bother me one bit because there was never a doubt in my mind that we were together. I don't see my friend very often but when I do, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he wants to spend time with me. For the longest time, all I wanted was to spend time with my husband and have him be checked in, paying attention, and acting like he genuinely wanted to be with me.

Now, I don't want to be with him because I can't get the image of him with another man out of my head. I can't seem to let go of the fact that I am disgusted by the fact that he seems to relish the idea of me being with somebody else.

I have a lot of decompressing to do. I know that I will need to stay long enough to get myself together. Some of the stuff on the staying board is helpful for that but I think ultimately that the best thing for me to do is move towards being able to leave. I don't know what else to do because there are so many things that I cannot seem to get past.

[Inside]

…so what’s wrong, or right with ‘us?’  Here I am wanting to do all I can to help ‘all of you and all the kids!’  Is that the mixed up thinking that supposedly got, then kept me attached to an uBPDgf for 3.5 years … including seven recycles... ?  Is this the ‘rescuer’ or ‘caregiver’ in me…?  What the heck…  this stuff breaks my heart!  Silly me?  Why should I care?  Why shouldn’t I be happy to be cashing in my families homestead, sending my daughters off to college, buying a place where ever I want and living ‘happily ever after?’  What’s my problem that I feel like jumping in there and helping those kids with their homework?  Are we simply a never-ending supply of suckers ready and willing to pickup after life’s terminal litters?

Yah, I’m pretty much free of the longtime wife that abandoned me …and her BPD equivalent … but I am finding it totally impossible to answer the constant question I get from friends and relatives: ‘What do you want to do?’  Crap – after spending my childhood raising my siblings (in Big Brother mode), moving on to an ultra needy wife, raising my/ our daughters ... .while distancing myself from a predatory BP…  I (actually laughing out loud here!) … I just wanna help someone out!

I’ve long thought that hanging around this amazing online community has saved me loads of time & money in therapy … but just listening to myself here has me wondering if heading in for some serious therapy is what I should be doing first... ?  To hell with ‘what I want’ … sounds like I gotta get out of rescue mode

…I tend to ramble, but just reading the desperate thoughts of others, especially women (as in, there are some solid responsible women out there), has me feeling better about my ultimate plan of escaping to Belize!  But it’s not like I’m running from a nagging wife or a stalking borderline … it’s like I’d be running from myself, and the pain of remembering all I’ve lost …and who knows what else ~ 

Sorry for the rant/ ramble, and thanks for showing appreciation for my post…  - and that’s another thing – do any of us ever hear (or have heard) a sincere Thank You – for all - make that ALL We’ve Done for those we’ve loved... ?  …my parents did a fantastic job of wringing the self esteem from their kids, beginning with me …so maybe that’s why I’ve tolerated others doing the same? 

OK, sorry… …shouldn’t have had that beer

Carry on

[vortex of confusion]

…so what’s wrong, or right with ‘us?’  Here I am wanting to do all I can to help ‘all of you and all the kids!’  Is that the mixed up thinking that supposedly got, then kept me attached to an uBPDgf for 3.5 years … including seven recycles... ?  Is this the ‘rescuer’ or ‘caregiver’ in me…?  What the heck…  this stuff breaks my heart!  Silly me?  Why should I care?  Why shouldn’t I be happy to be cashing in my families homestead, sending my daughters off to college, buying a place where ever I want and living ‘happily ever after?’  What’s my problem that I feel like jumping in there and helping those kids with their homework?  Are we simply a never-ending supply of suckers ready and willing to pickup after life’s terminal litters?

See, I think I may be terminally screwed in the head. I have a very difficult time buying into the whole codependent thing. Oh, I want to help others so that makes me codependent? I had a discussion with a good friend of mine about this. In my ideal little world, everybody would be like that and we wouldn't have to worry about a loved one (or even a non-loved one) taking advantage of our generosity. Healthy people do not attach themselves to others and then suck the life out of them.

Yah, I’m pretty much free of the longtime wife that abandoned me …and her BPD equivalent … but I am finding it totally impossible to answer the constant question I get from friends and relatives: ‘What do you want to do?’  Crap – after spending my childhood raising my siblings (in Big Brother mode), moving on to an ultra needy wife, raising my/ our daughters ... .while distancing myself from a predatory BP…  I (actually laughing out loud here!) … I just wanna help someone out!

I was the aunt that helped raise my nieces and nephews before having my own kids. My sisters couldn't be bothered with their own kids so they would dump them on me and my mom. My mother is another story entirely. She is PD to the max. But, we have all pretty much figured out how to placate her. I have had to go NC with my oldest sister because she has some kind of crazy going on. The last time I saw her, I wouldn't let her in my house and I wouldn't let her on my porch. She called the cops on me and had them do a welfare check because I wouldn't let her see my kids. The cop all but laughed when she showed up to do the welfare check. all of the kids came out and talked to her and told her that they were scared of their aunt. It was crazy. Oh, and I had to go NC with my middle sister for a while because she went off the deep end and was calling 20-30 times a day and threatened to call children's services on me because I wouldn't drop everything and take her somewhere. So, I am no stranger to crazy. As much as my husband irritates me, I know how the minds of my twisted family works. If I have a man (even a crappy one), they will largely leave me alone. If I were to go it alone, they would move in and try to save me.

I’ve long thought that hanging around this amazing online community has saved me loads of time & money in therapy … but just listening to myself here has me wondering if heading in for some serious therapy is what I should be doing first... ?  To hell with ‘what I want’ … sounds like I gotta get out of rescue mode

I have that feeling. The whole focusing on what I want seems so unbelievably selfish to me. yeah, it is important to know what I want but the last thing I want to do is become just another selfish person that only thinks of him/herself. That is a quality that irks me about my husband. I do NOT want to be like that.

…I tend to ramble, but just reading the desperate thoughts of others, especially women (as in, there are some solid responsible women out there), has me feeling better about my ultimate plan of escaping to Belize!  But it’s not like I’m running from a nagging wife or a stalking borderline … it’s like I’d be running from myself, and the pain of remembering all I’ve lost …and who knows what else ~  

LOL. I don't know why but that made me laugh. Maybe it is because I have had thoughts of running away from myself too. This isn't the life that I had planned for myself. This isn't the life that I wanted for my kids. Some days, I look in the mirror and hate myself for not being able to be a selfish ___hole like other people. I look in the mirror and hate the fact that I am somehow perceived as weak because I can't set a boundary with the man that I married and have four kids with. What the heck? I should not have to fight for myself or stand up for myself. I should be able to be me, especially in a relationship where there is supposed to be intimacy. yeah, whatever! LOL. Yep, definitely want to run away from myself at times.

Sorry for the rant/ ramble, and thanks for showing appreciation for my post…  - and that’s another thing – do any of us ever hear (or have heard) a sincere Thank You – for all - make that ALL We’ve Done for those we’ve loved... ?  …my parents did a fantastic job of wringing the self esteem from their kids, beginning with me …so maybe that’s why I’ve tolerated others doing the same?  

OK, sorry… …shouldn’t have had that beer

Carry on

No apologies necessary!  

Drunk typing or writing or thinking can be so cathartic. You say all of the things that you keep to yourself because you know better than to say some things. I don't know if my self esteem was eaten up by my parents or my siblings. My mother and my sisters were the worst culprits. My dad and my brother were pretty cool. That isn't to say they were great but my dad saw how bad my mother screwed up my siblings and tried to take me under his wing and keep me from her craziness. Of all of my siblings, I am the only one that has never been institutionalized for any reason. I am the only one that has done things that were considered "normal" or "traditional". But, I was seen as trying to be goody goody or rubbing their noses into things and some of them would take shots at me every which way they could. When I was getting ready to get married, I got in trouble for talking about it too much. When we bought our first house, I got in trouble for talking about it too much. I am guessing that my sisters went and cried to dad so dad told me to shut up so I didn't make my sisters jealous.

[going places]

How did you get to that point? What did it take for you to get to a point where you wanted as far away as you can get? How old are your kids?

Step 1.

When my son called me from college and told me he didn't like being here because 'it's not home'. (He stayed at a friends most of the summer... .and I rarely saw him; which was devastating to me)

Step 2.

I saw an abuse advocate at the local battered women's shelter.

He never laid a hand on me... .but I met with the advocate, went to groups sessions.

I found out my life was NOT normal, and what had been happening to me WAS abuse.

Step 3

I talked to my doc about PTSD... .I finally opened up and talked to someone.

The 'pastor counsloer' we were seeing told me that if I talked about it, I was 'not forgiving'... .

Step 4

My youngest joined the military.

Step 5

I finally stopped with the 'false hope, la la land 'if I try a little harder it's going to be ok' BS'

I finally just stopped.

I was sick and tired of being sick and depressed.

I knew his abuse game, and it no longer worked on me... .

I was not the same person that I had been 3 years prior, and my kids told me so.

And they didn't like who I was... .wanted the old me back... .

I stopped making excuses.

I fought the 'emotional' insanity and looked at things logically.

As far away as I can get?

I don't ever want to see him again in my life.

I will have to see him at least 3 more times before I leave... .the last time being at the closing table when the house sells (please Lord send a buyer) and quite frankly, that's 3 more times than I want.

What he did to me was cruel... .evil.

When I have to email with him about this house, it makes me sick to my stomach, a nervous wreck, on high alert, aggitated... .and that's just email.

I don't ever want to 'feel' the way I do when I am around him again, ever in my life, ever.

SO I am moving where there is ZERO chance I will have to see him AND there is no more winter.

Winner Winner.

How old are my kids?

They are in their 20's.

But... .

I sheltered them from SO much. There is SO MUCH they have NO idea.

AND since 2011 I have explained so much... .

Logically and from a very medical and Biblical perspective (yes, those two can co exist)

If I had babies like you do? I'd hire a live in nanny and move to the other side of the country.

I am so sorry you are in this situation... .I hope you find the strength to get out

[vortex of confusion]

If I had babies like you do? I'd hire a live in nanny and move to the other side of the country.

I am so sorry you are in this situation... .I hope you find the strength to get out

Thank you so much for all of this. It really helps me to see things a little more clear. Up until about 6 or 8 months ago, I didn't see that my husband's behavior was abusive. I stumbled across a book at a thrift store about verbal abuse. I don't know what prompted me to buy it and read it. I think it was because I know and have known on some level that things in our relationship are not normal. My husband's fear of abandonment was over the top and so was his desire to keep me by his side.

I have gotten a second part time job to help me develop myself professionally. I have taught an online class for 7 or so years but employers don't really count that because I never actually interact with people in person. I am hoping to get some more skills in my profession so that I can work my way into a full time job. I am trying to be very practical and very deliberate because I am trying to find ways to minimize the damage. In the mean time, I am staying and trying to maintain my sanity. I used to stay thinking that maybe something would change and we could live happily ever after. You know the whole holding onto hope that I could find the magic solution. I have given up on that.