Marriage Counseling (and sending a "I'm staying" message)

[Indyan]

Continued... .



Quote from: formflier on Yesterday at 05:12:39 PM

You will never... .ever... .know his intentions... .

Have you managed to stop wondering about your wife's motives? I guess they don't know themselves what they really want anyway... .?

You will know his actions... and reactions... .spend your energy there.

Yes, I told him lately that only actions mattered, that the rest was just beautiful talk.

I also answered "NO MORE FOG" several times when I didn't like his messages. He has no idea what he means but it made me feel better  

You know your values... .you know your boundaries... .that is a WONDERFUL place to spend your energy protecting... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Have you managed to stop wondering about your wife's motives? I guess they don't know themselves what they really want anyway... .?

Yes... .this is an area where logic helped me.  I'm a very "logical" "factual" person.  Once I understood that there is an "order to the disorder"  and I could see that the r/s that I was involved in was playing out just like the lessons said it would... .and like many others had predicted it would.  That gave me power... .I felt better... .felt like I was in control again.  That... .coupled with the logical truth that ultimately you will never know "why" someone did something... .just that they actually did or said... .I was able to get away from thinking about my wife's motives.

I would rephrase your last part to say that their emotions control what they "really want"... .and those emotions aren't "stable"... .and are affected by "their reality" much more than by "objective reality".

"NO MORE FOG" 

I would be very careful about using "BPD terminology" around him.  In fact... .I recommend not doing that.  Higher functioning pwBPD can catch on quick that they are being "manipulated"... .or that "strategies" are being used on them... .and then they can fight that.

Much better to keep your BPD knowledge hidden... .  Secret weapons work because they are secret... .the enemy doesn't see them coming

The goal with lessons is that your pwBPD notices things are better... but they are not sure why.

[Indyan]

Secret weapons work because they are secret... .the enemy doesn't see them coming

The goal with lessons is that your pwBPD notices things are better... but they are not sure why.

Yes, that makes sense. Thanks for this 

[Indyan]

So the story continues... .

News update: he hasn't come visiting and went NC for 10 days. I'd figured he wouldn't come over as I knew his dad was on holidays (and BPD doesn't drive).

Honestly these 10 days of NC/no visit did me good. I relaxed a bit, although quite anxious to know whether I'd get a letter for court or not from his lawyer.

Anyway, tonight he sent me a long mail and I've no idea what to answer.

After a long intro saying that he's writing with "good intentions", he goes on saying that "he didn't write to me because I said he's persecuting me (?), but that asking for news about his baby his not persecuting me. (BTW, he's the one who told me in his last mail that "persecution toward him must cease". That his tried to respect my demand and my feelings by going NC (I guess he's the good guy in the story), but that I sent nothing, so he's contacting me now.

He complained that I haven't sent any news about baby for 2 weeks, that I must be taking revenge on him for taking baby back late 3 weeks ago. He says that "he's showing trust in me and hopes it's not for the last time, that - whatever the reasons - ALL THE EXPERTS HE SEES (   )  advised him against having any contact with me but he's doing it anyway".

That the "normal way" would be to receive news every two days, or everyday.

He says he wants PEACE and can I please not discuss things in length as I always do.



I suppose, if I read between the lines, that it means that I'm SOO evil that HE HAS NO OTHER CHOICE but to write to the devil in person to be allowed to get a few lines about his baby.

I'm so sick of all this. And I've no idea what to say.

The reason I didn't send anything is because he talked about COURT the last time, because he's extremely cold when I see him, because I need to stay away from him, and because my T told me he has Schizophrenia traits (with paranoia/victimisation) and to speak the minimum to him.

And because I just didn't feel like communicating with him at all.

Not that I want to explain (Justify) all this to him.

I don't want to look like I'm obeying his orders. I don't want unnecessary war either.

I know it's another provocation, and I want to show "no reaction" (as this has worked wonderfully for the last 2 weeks ).

I'm not inspired, any idea anyone?

[Indyan]

Tricky because:

1) I don't want to look like I'm obeying his orders.

2) but I don't want unnecessary war either.

3) I don't want to react to his provocations (such as his Ts told him to go NC with "that woman" - that is me)

4) I want to reassure him a bit, as I know he truly misses baby (and I dare say our family life too).

5) I don't want to JADE, but show that I don't agree (I don't feel I'm persecuted)

6) Still feel sincere and honest

Hmmm... .that's not the recipe for a spontaneous message

---------------

That's what I've come up with. I've tried to apply SET for the first time, no FOG, no JADE.

"Hi, I understand that you miss Baby, this is only natural as you don't see him everyday.

With no ulterior motive, I agree with your Ts that we should limit communication for the time being.

I hope it will only be temporary, and for the good of all of us.

Meanwhile, I invite you to join me on FB (he doesn't have an account), I posted some photos yesterday and will post more if I know you're there.

Take care"

Any opinions?

[Indyan]

And the very ironical thing is that baby got very sick tonight. If he carries on, I'll take him to the hospital.

Of course, I told BPDh none of all this, as I don't need someone panicking via text messages -or worse- showing up with his parents.

[Grey Kitty]

If he writes provocative crap to you... .reacting to or even trying to address will do no good.

Your email looks pretty good to me. I'd shorten or fine tune it a bit more though... .

3) I don't want to react to his provocations (such as his Ts told him to go NC with "that woman" - that is me)

Good reason here... .so why even say this?

With no ulterior motive, I agree with your Ts that we should limit communication for the time being.

First, telling him you don't have an ulterior motive won't help. Skip that.

Second, expressing an opinion on what his T tells him is a bad idea.

Third, I think you are hiding your relief at 10 days of NC behind his stuff, and not speaking your own desires or opinions clearly.

This is better:

I hope it will only be temporary, and for the good of all of us.

I'm wondering though... .What do YOU want in the way of communications or contact with him? You can call, text, or email him any time you want. I'm guessing you have transportation and can drive over to visit him if you want.

When you are clear on what you want, you can state it or ask for it more clearly. Stating your feelings or desires clearly is better than telling him what to do, and far better than telling him why he should do it.

 Hope baby is doing better!

[Indyan]

Thanks Grey Kitty 

It's complicated... .because I've already sent the message and he's already answered... .saying that he wants no FB (too paranoid for this I guess), and BTW doesn't want his son to appear on it either.

So now he DEMANDS news to him exclusively... .

[formflier]

 

My advice... .figure out how you want to "present" your son to the world.  I'm not a facebooker... .but I know most are.  It's very convenient.

There is also google plus... .and similar services.

I think you should figure out how you want to do that... .then do it.  And let your hubby know where the information is.

That puts the ball in his court... .he will have no one to blame but himself if he doesn't access the information. 

That takes care of the practical aspect of it.

Then... .you want to clearly send a "staying" signal.  A signal that he is the daddy... .and that you and he have a special connection with the child. 

So... pick out a picture that you have posted... .and send him a comment about that picture.  Do something special... .keep it semi regular... .every 3 or 4 days.

Keep this up for a month or two... .and hopefully this issue of information about baby will sort of whither up. 

Once he sees you are not reacting or changing tactics due to his whims... .

I suspect this is sideshow... .not a core issue... which is why I'm suggesting a course of action to help it go away

[Grey Kitty]

So now he DEMANDS news to him exclusively... .

How do you feel about giving in to his DEMANDS?

[Indyan]

How do you feel about giving in to his DEMANDS?

Stressed.

I can't see WHY ON EARTH I should agree to send daily messages to someone who considers me his ennemy and to whom a dozen therapists told that he "shouldn't have any contact with that woman".

[Indyan]

Formflier, that's what I've done.

I told him to open a FB account, that I post pics every now and then but I would post more and add comments if I knew he was looking.

[Grey Kitty]

Here's my take:

His DEMANDS can go ___ themselves.

[Indyan]

Here's my take:

His DEMANDS can go ___ themselves.

Well, in the end I answered that I'd send news about once a week. That I didn't feel I could send news every day as it is not my politics to write to someone who considers me his enemy, especially if the Ts said NC was better.

I then asked him not to write long FOGGY emails (I didn't say it like this ) and gave some news + pictures.

[Grey Kitty]

You are standing up for your values--being yourself, not being controlled, and also involving him with Baby as much as you safely can. 

I then asked him not to write long FOGGY emails (I didn't say it like this ) and gave some news + pictures.

I don't think the highlighted part was necessary or helpful... .either in its blunt form here, or the more tactful version you used.

Have you read the workshop on the B.I.F.F. communications tool?

[formflier]

 

Much better to give a pwBPD traits a request of what you want them to do... .than to ask them not to do something.

you run the risk of invalidating by letting them know what not to do... .also... .better to stay positive... .

[Indyan]

Grey Kitty and FF, thanks for your replies  

I told him twice "what to do", which was to minimise contact and I suggested FB.

When he said that he was not keen on FB not to say the least (which is not new), I agreed to send pics and news but my boundary is to not receive lenghty foggy mails. That implies, or else I'll feel too stressed to send more news.

There's something else about these messages, and the reason I can't sleep.

I don't know it I'm amplifying things here.

As I said before, T said that we're probably heading towards a diagnosis of schizophrenia, because of the long-lasting feeling of persecution. This was confirmed by someone I spoke to from a well-known association tonight, who said that persecution was THE symptom that calls for a diagnosis toward sz.

Anyway... .and some of the main symptoms are "disorganized speech", "memory problems" or "mixed up ideas".

It happened verbally, after MC, when he answered about his mother while I was talking about ME.

Now, here, there've been 2 weird things, I'd like to know if you think it is significant.

2 weeks ago (and that was our last exchange until yesterday), I suggested mediation, he answered : "I'll get back to you on this as soon as I've asked my attorney for some advice - but FYI I'm not into mediation anymore but into Family Court Judge".

Anything striking in this statement?

Then, I went on explaining that "Judges appreciate if we can communicate" etc and at some point I told him that it seemed that nothing could stop him from hating me but that I wished he would find some peace of mind (something like that). He answered "Please don't share your denigrating thoughts about my person ever again, PERSECUTION MUST CEASE."

I answered : "I'm deeply sorry you have a feeling of persecution (I'm quoting you) but it seems that nothing I  say or do can help."

That was our last exchange for 2 weeks.

I figured out he was feeling too "persecuted" and I also needed some space, so I didn't write to him. I expected him to ask for news at some point, but to my relief he didn't, although I did find this a little worrying.

Yesterday, he finally sent me a long and strange message that began with "You told me that you felt persecuted, so I tried to respect that and didn't contact you for a long time. But I don't think that asking for some news about my baby is persecution."



HE feels persecuted, HE tells me about it and then projects the feeling onto ME?

[Mr. Solo]

I just wish I could get my dBPDw to go. She keeps putting it off. She says she wants to do individual therapy before she begins marriage counseling. That's fine but she isn't doing individual therapy. So, now, when I ask about marriage counseling she says, "That's not the type of help I need right now." She needs monetary help. Ha ha!

[Indyan]

I just wish I could get my dBPDw to go. She keeps putting it off. She says she wants to do individual therapy before she begins marriage counseling. That's fine but she isn't doing individual therapy. So, now, when I ask about marriage counseling she says, "That's not the type of help I need right now." She needs monetary help. Ha ha!

Doing individual therapy first is rather a good idea IMO.

In my case, MC turned out to have a huge triggering effect.

[formflier]

 

Indyan,

I don't have much more time this evening... .but quick thought... .

Shorten up your replies.

He complains in email... ."sorry you feel that way... " move along to a subject that you are ok with.

Don't mention again what he has said... .he most likely forgot anyway... .or will confuse it.

Telling him to minimize contact... could be taken weird.

Just let him know how often... .don't tell him why... .it could be taken as you complaining about him... .which you are... .but... .it is ineffective communication (not working)... .so don't use any communication that is not working. 

That energy can be put into other things.

I would also say... .spend less time figuring out why he does things... .or trying to predict a diagnosis... .spend more time on making sure your part of interaction (what you say... ) is helpful.

Why?

Because you are 100% in control... .by focusing on your part.


I think you are doing great with this... .keep it up!

[Grey Kitty]

There's something else about these messages, and the reason I can't sleep.

I don't know it I'm amplifying things here.

As I said before, T said that we're probably heading towards a diagnosis of schizophrenia, because of the long-lasting feeling of persecution. This was confirmed by someone I spoke to from a well-known association tonight, who said that persecution was THE symptom that calls for a diagnosis toward sz.

Anyway... .and some of the main symptoms are "disorganized speech", "memory problems" or "mixed up ideas".

This sounds plausible enough to me. HOWEVER, you are not in a position to force or even encourage treatment or diagnosis for him. It is hugely important to him. Any choice he makes to get effective treatment will help him and you. Still... .all the actions and choices here are his, not yours.

For you, and your future... .it doesn't matter very much why or how he is crazy. What matters is how much you twist yourself to fit his crazy. And that has been too much in the past.

Hold tight to your reality, your values, and what you believe is right.

Don't try to drag him back to your reality, and more importantly, don't let him drag you into his. This is best handled with boundaries.

HE feels persecuted, HE tells me about it and then projects the feeling onto ME?

Yup. And you can't stop him from doing it either. All you can do is protect yourself by backing away when he does it.

[Mr. Solo]

I just wish I could get my dBPDw to go. She keeps putting it off. She says she wants to do individual therapy before she begins marriage counseling. That's fine but she isn't doing individual therapy. So, now, when I ask about marriage counseling she says, "That's not the type of help I need right now." She needs monetary help. Ha ha!

Doing individual therapy first is rather a good idea IMO.

In my case, MC turned out to have a huge triggering effect.

Correct. I know it is a good idea. That's why I have been going to counseling/therapy for about a year. My point is, she isn't getting individual therapy. I feel like she is using that as an excuse to not really do anything. I personally think she is afraid of MC because she isn't going to be able to bull ___ the counselor with me sitting there. She used to go to counseling and would come home saying her counselor said this and that which couldn't have been based in reality. One of the first things was, "My counselor said you abandoned me which caused me to cheat." Really? I know now that she has been diagnosed as BPD she probably made it sound as if I really had abandoned her. She stopped going when the counselor asked her if I could come with her for a few sessions. That was four years ago. At one point about 2 years ago, when we were still together, she began DBT. The thing is, she only went to the b___ing sessions. She wouldn't go to group and do any real work. She just came, b___ed, and left. After she left me last year, she expected me to still pay for it. I did for a while but then her therapist told her she NEEDED to do group so she quit. I feel like she is using the individual therapy excuse to avoid dealing with anything.

[Indyan]

That energy can be put into other things.

I would also say... .spend less time figuring out why he does things... .or trying to predict a diagnosis... .spend more time on making sure your part of interaction (what you say... ) is helpful.

Yes, I'm want to do this.

Especially now that I've told what I know to his sister, THEY will deal with this, his health etc.

I'm seriously thinking of breaking off al ties with his family in a near future, and to find a way to see him the minimum required.

I really need to preserve myself, this is dragging me down, seriously.

[Indyan]

For you, and your future... .it doesn't matter very much why or how he is crazy. What matters is how much you twist yourself to fit his crazy. And that has been too much in the past.

Hold tight to your reality, your values, and what you believe is right.

Yes, triple yes. No more twisting, I'm going to focus exclusively from now on on my kids and I.

There's something else I'd like to tell you about.

I feel that people are hostile (you guys are the exceptions), and this since I mentionned Schizophrenia.

Even some friends, even my mum. As if, I was being "too concerned"... .I'm not sure why in fact.

But some people who were supportive are now starting to turn their back against me.

It leaves me puzzled and hurt.

I know that I've been sucked into this crazy vortex of confusion (hi vortex!) and maybe in the process I've become a bit crazy myself? I'm so chocked by all this - as I only found out about BPD 1 year ago after 6 months of r/s, and it has escalated to real mental illness now - that it feels I may be going round in circles.

I feel that people ARE SICK of hearing about this, even people I'd become close to on a BPD forum in my country.

Even my therapist has told me to let go... .but what I don't get is that I AM LETTING GO.

But things are hard nevertheless, I feel the same as if he was dead, while 6 months ago we loved each other still. Wanting to understand things still, to try and prevent too (we have a baby, and he wants to go to court... .), is not being a clinger, or is it?


Thanks for being here.

[Grey Kitty]

Oh honey! 

I can't say what is happening with the people who used to be supportive... .or you used to see as supportive. All I can say is that it really *IS* hard for them to understand your situation.

Heck, it is hard for you to understand your situation!

My only recommendation is to be clear to your friends and family--tell them that you desperately need their support right now. And tell them what that means to you.

Can you state that in clear and specific terms? What sort of support do you want from them?

Also can you clearly state what they are doing that isn't helping you (But you believe they are doing with good intentions)?

 GK

[Indyan]

I feel that they criticize me a lot, whatever I do, I'm either too nice or too strict. But the main thing is that they don't understand that I still talk about feelings and love - even when I'm saying that it's hard because just 2 months ago he was telling me how much he loved me.

People seem to believe that I could stop loving someone I loved truly and deeply, and the father of my baby son, just because I decide so.  

I tried to explain things but there's no point.

[Grey Kitty]

I feel that they criticize me a lot, whatever I do, I'm either too nice or too strict. But the main thing is that they don't understand that I still talk about feelings and love - even when I'm saying that it's hard because just 2 months ago he was telling me how much he loved me.

People seem to believe that I could stop loving someone I loved truly and deeply, and the father of my baby son, just because I decide so.  

I tried to explain things but there's no point.

So what you want is for them to listen to what you are going through... .which they do.

And not criticize you for being too nice or too strict.

Can you just tell them that you are working things out the best you can... .and already getting way too much criticism from your H. So please don't tell me that I should do things differently.

And if they cannot honor that, seek out people who will to talk to instead.

[Moselle]

Indyan,

Sorry to hear you're getting criticised by family and friends. That's very tough. Hang in there.

[Indyan]

Can you just tell them that you are working things out the best you can... .and already getting way too much criticism from your H. So please don't tell me that I should do things differently.

And if they cannot honor that, seek out people who will to talk to instead.

I have... .and decided to talk to other people about some of the things... .

For example, I can talk about "positive" actions (like meeting a member of a well known organization for family members of mentally ill people) but not about my sadness or about feelings in general, to my mother.

Talking about that member, I told her today about this feeling of alienation and she told me it's common. That people don't want to hear about mental illness (or other illnesses I guess), it scares them, they have no idea what to say, how to help. She concluded really nicely saying "that's what we're here for".

What a relief!

She has contacts at the hospital among other things. She provided with some advice, it really helped.

[Moselle]

Can you just tell them that you are working things out the best you can... .and already getting way too much criticism from your H. So please don't tell me that I should do things differently.

And if they cannot honor that, seek out people who will to talk to instead.

I have... .and decided to talk to other people about some of the things... .

For example, I can talk about "positive" actions (like meeting a member of a well known organization for family members of mentally ill people) but not about my sadness or about feelings in general, to my mother.

Talking about that member, I told her today about this feeling of alienation and she told me it's common. That people don't want to hear about mental illness (or other illnesses I guess), it scares them, they have no idea what to say, how to help. She concluded really nicely saying "that's what we're here for".

What a relief!

She has contacts at the hospital among other things. She provided with some advice, it really helped.

Indyan we seem to be having a similar quandary. I've specifically gone out to tell people who are close to the family about the abuse. Some went straight back to my W with it, others said, yes, we knew already.  How can we help? After a bit of blundering, I have a much better feel for who will or won't be supportive/understand.