At what age did you realise your kid had BPD ?

[HappyChappy]

I only realised my mom had BPD and bro NPD a year ago. Ironically it was my son’s extreme Narcisstic behaviour that triggered this. We had assumed my son did not have NPD because there was never the environment they say created a PD, but I read 25% of BPD just happen, all they need is the jean. However speaking with my son’s teachers, it’s becoming hard to deny that our son's behavior stands appart from the rest of his family. There is a problem, the question is what.

He’s an expert at gas lighting and it permanently competing or sabotaging others. He cannot except blame – he will go to any lengths to avoid responsibility, and he’s now of an age where we can’t say his behaviour is down to being an 8 year old boy, as we’re getting comments like “He’s the only child in my class that... .”

It has been suggested he has ADHD, because his concentration isn’t good,  he can’t sit still and he’s very impulsive. But isn’t that true of BPD ? But these are the least of my worries, it’s his lack of empathy and permanent need to wind someone up, or compete or argue with them. He wears us both down. He’s also a super nag and rages over the smallest of things. He’s also obsessed with this appreatance. He is extremely forceful, and overly confident that he will always get what he wants. He’s constantly running his sister and shows no loyalty to anyone.

That said and done, he’s never been involved in criminal activity, and does still sit on the naughty step when told. So he’s “not our of control”. He doesn’t swear and will apologies (although with little conviction). How do we find out if he does have a personality disorder ? Also I have bad PTSD from the abuse I had as a child, and it’s narcisstic behaviour that triggers it, so again I kind of need to know if his behaviour is here to stay. Any comments would be appreciated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SeaSprite]

From what I understand, most mental health professionals try not to diagnose PDs in minors, although they will often treat the symptoms. Some kids outgrow problematic behaviors on their own, some learn new ways of coping through skills classes or therapy and become "normal" as adults. And for some their struggles will continue into adulthood.

There are great resources on this site for parents, they've helped me quite a bit dealing with my d.

One thing that was helpful for me to understand is that even if BPD/ NPD weren't caused by problems at home, (my daughter cuts and was never abused) there are skills that parents can learn that help to make it better. Because it looks like some kids just react differently to "normal" parenting.

If there is any way for you to get support/therapy for your own PTSD, it might help a lot, so your son isn't triggering you. If he gets a thrill from pushing buttons, PTSD makes pushing buttons really easy. I see this with my h and his daughters, he has PTSD from his BPD ex, and when his daughters push those buttons it triggers him and makes it hard to deal with their issues.

If his behaviors are a problem, they are a problem no matter what the diagnosis. Don't lose hope. My d20 was a very challenging child, and late to learn empathy. And yet somehow she has developed into a very caring person who is on a really good path. And my d17 who was a much easier, more caring child is giving us all kinds of problems, and looks quite selfish at the moment. So you never know.

If your son can learn to channel that confidence into positive things, maybe he'll grow up to start a company or be a teacher  or a firefighter or a politician or something.  

[Pou]

My wife is a uNPD, and I got to tell you… what you describing your son is exactly how my wife behaves… strange how I made a commitment to someone like this.  But no worries for you… part of the problems of PDs is that they could not outgrow their immaturity.  So what you are describing could be "normal" for kids … because they are still learning how to behave.  That means, you have hope ... you can redirect his problematic behaviors and fix them before too late.  I think once he becomes an adult and he still has those behaviors... then I guess you can pretty much assume that will be the case for good.  However, as a parent I know it will be hard accept.  Keep your hope up… be mindful he is still a kid and give him chances and guidance, hopefully you will succeed.  Best wishes.

[HappyChappy]

Thanks for your kind responses. Any more would be really helpful. I guess the issue may be that I only just survived my childhood with a NPD bro and BPD mom. So my worst nightmare is to have live with someone with BPD again.

Also being a fixer for other people right now I have people around me that expect me to help them and not the other way around, so your support is appreciated. It doesn't help that my NPD bro was incredible violent with me, and I sense as soon as my son gets bigger than me he may go the same way. I've seen my NPD bro punch pensioners, he had no shame. He kicked me out of a moving car once. But that's a NPD, from what I know BPD don't tend to act that way – my BPD mom doesn’t, she just wears you down over time, bit like our son. Before NC, the similarities between my BPDm and son were striking.

[SeaSprite]

You don't mention whether you are married or your son's relationship with his dad, or other male role-models? If you are afraid of him, that's going to be hard for both of you, and if he reminds you of someone who hurt you (thrown out of a moving car!  ) that's going to be so hard for you.

It sounds like it's hard for you to ask for help, that you are someone who wants to be the helper... .you are a good mom. It's also all right to reach out for help... .find good role models for him. Sports coaches. Martial arts training. (I know, it sounds weird to suggest fighting to someone who you are worried about violence, but if he has a good male teacher, he will be taught self-discipline, respect, and to NEVER start fights or to hurt people who are weaker.) A program like "Big-Brothers". Chess club. Art class. Anything you can find with a compassionate but strong male who will both encourage him and teach him to respect himself and others.

And if god-forbid he ever does become abusive toward you... .call the police the first time!    A friend of mine had this problem with his son... .at one point son threatened to kill mom. He wasn't a bad kid except when he got angry and lost control. A night in detention, parole, and community service was a big reality check for him.

You aren't alone. 

[livednlearned]

My uBPD brother pushed me out of a car too   I was 5.

Do you think your son would cooperate with DBT? I don't  know if they have that for young kids. I'm trying to work through a similar issue with my S13, figuring out what might be brewing. It isn't NPD, I am almost certain (his dad is BPD/NPD + bipolar), but I'm worried it's something.

Even if mental health professionals can't diagnose kids, I think it's a good idea to deal with the behaviors as young as possible. The key is finding a really, really good mental health provider. Right now, I have my son in a skills class, and that's been more effective in many ways than 3 years of one-on-one counseling. The LCSW leading the class is a man, and there are four boys in the class. It's a safe environment, and the thing that seems to be most effective is the peer feedback. I hear S13 describe something he does as though it's the first time anyone has mentioned it to him, even though I've been saying it for years   I think kids have a special ear that they can only hear other kids through.

I agree with SeaSprite too that it's important for you to get help with your PTSD triggers. Kids have an amazing instinct for finding those buttons. I've had to learn what I think of as anti-bullying techniques, not because S13 is a bully, but because I seemed to respond in a way that said "walk all over me." I even had to watch my facial expressions and learn to have a neutral look when S13 was using things he learned from his dad on me. A lot of that behavior has gone away, thankfully. But new stuff seems to keep showing up as he goes through different puberty-related developmental phases.

[HappyChappy]

Thanks for the helpful resonces. SeaSprite I'm happily married (almost 2 decades now). I'm not afraid of our son, just aware that he's pushing for control at such a young age - I work in management, so very aware of this alpha male rubbish. I think he would cooperate with DBT, but it's just not avaliable on the NHS (in the UK). I have an 8 month waiting list for therapy for PTSD, because unless you've been in the Army over here, there just isn't support. Luckly I have money for private therapy. Chap in Britain means male  , or more specifically friendly male, hence HappyChappy  . We have tried chess and martial arts (I was into both myself), but he’s settled on football, or soccer as you may call it. Despite it being a game played with a foot and a ball, what is a soccer anyway ? Also American football is played with a big egg and your hands. Shouldn’t that game be called egg hand (with armour) ? But language aside, I agree with your advice.

Livedandlearned, good to know the car thing isn't just my NPD. Good advice, I do have therapy for my PTSD, but I really did take a beating as a young child at the hands of two PD, so I guess it takes time. I think your kind responses have made me realise, my concerns may be more to do with my PTSD and partly my son’s ADHD apparently empathy is slow to come with ADHD. If the proffesionals won't diagnose, no sence worrying prematurly.  But anymore tips or views feel free to waid in.  

[theplotthickens]

My dd  was diagnosed with "rule out" and "emerging traits" at aged 13, 15, 16, and at aged 17 They think she looks either antisocial, BPD or histrionic, but that she has an obvious PD. She has been in 3 treatments,  is a cutter, and had 2 suicide attempts within 6 months of each other.

At any rate, you treat the struggles and see what helps.  My dd also has Bipolar I with mixed episodes, ODD and ADHD, combined type.  

Best wishes to you.

[donnab]

I *thought* she had BPD at 18, her behaviour had been out of control since 12. I was just so exhausted and run down by it I took what the professionals said when they said she was a rebellious teenager and would grow out if it. At 18 I started to piece EVERYTHING together. Sure enough the things we went through and she did could be called rebellious but when I pieced it ALL together it didn't add up. And at 18 when she should have been calming down but she wasn't. It was after having to call the police during a rage over dipping a chip into her egg that I started to look into BPD. It all added up, it took a further 2.5 years before anyone listened and I could get my daughter to the mental health team

Incidentally people used to say to me from when she was young I "needed to nip her behaviour in the bud" or I would have trouble when she was a teenager. I didn't know what they meant. Sure found out though

[pessim-optimist]

You have already gotten good advice from others, HappyChappy.

I would add to it that since you have grown up w/BPD and NPD and suffer from PTSD, it does put you and your son at risk. The behaviors you were exposed to in your FOO taught you some dysfunctional dances. If you repeat any of those dances with your son, it might contribute to him developing a PD, or some unhealthy coping mechanisms at least.

Also, aside from his ADHD, he might be genetically predisposed to develop a PD. So, he might be in need of a specialized approach.

So, getting therapy for PTSD is a wonderful plan. And discovering your particular maladaptive coping mechanisms from your FOO might show you what to avoid.

I am sure you are learning as much as you can about healthy parenting methods. In addition to that, approaches that help develop healthy coping mechanisms and management of emotions for BPD/NPD might be a good investment of your energy. It is easier to train a growing brain, than to try to re-wire it later in life.

[Turkish]

I sometimes wonde about my son who turns 5 in three months. He's always been sensitive. I used to call him Baby Rainman to others (maybe that's poor taste, I stopped saying that once I realized it was the way he was). He threw what turned out to be an hour long tantrum last week at soccer practice. I had to take him out early because he was disrupting the class. Another one happened after Sunday school yesterday. Inappropriate reaction. I'm trying to validate him, but it's tough at this age. This morning, another tantrum before I took him to school. I was firm in my biundary, brushing his teeth, tv going off. He came out of the bathroom, after doing scream fits, suddenly normal. It was weird, and reminded me of his uBPD mom.

His sister, D2, while being a bit more stubborn, isnt like her brother was at the same age. I see her defiance as normal for a 2 year old, having better control of her emotions. Their mom, who's neurologically sensitive like our son, told me she didn't talk until she was 5. I think there is definitely a genetic component to this, which is why I am worried for our son. In school so far, except for one incident which his mom should own (letting him bring a toy sword to school), there thankfully haven't been any problems. Both kids ate having issues with their mom's anger though, which does concern me.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SeaSprite]

Happychappy- shame on me for making assumptions about gender! :0

Turkish- My d20, nonBPD but with anxiety, mild depression, mild OCD, was a handful as a young child and on a good path now, helpful at home, starting her career, etc. Younger sis was an easy kid until she became self destructive, secretive, started cutting etc at around 13 or 14.

I LOVED the book "raising your spirited child" when she was young. The author wrote a lot about temperament styles and temperament match (or mismatch) between parent and child.

I also like the label "spirited" better than "difficult" like some books used. In fact, another thing the author did was offer up positive words to replace negative labels. Like persistent instead of stubborn. 

Five years is old enough to see a child needs extra support, but no way to know what they will grow into or out of.

[pessim-optimist]

He threw what turned out to be an hour long tantrum last week at soccer practice. I had to take him out early because he was disrupting the class. Another one happened after Sunday school yesterday. Inappropriate reaction. I'm trying to validate him, but it's tough at this age. This morning, another tantrum before I took him to school.

Two questions, Turkish:

Did S5 have tantrums like this before the divorce?

Is he able to communicate in the middle of a tantrum, or too much out of control?

[Turkish]

SeaSprite, that's a great story about you d20. I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with her sis. It must be so painful...

He threw what turned out to be an hour long tantrum last week at soccer practice. I had to take him out early because he was disrupting the class. Another one happened after Sunday school yesterday. Inappropriate reaction. I'm trying to validate him, but it's tough at this age. This morning, another tantrum before I took him to school.

Two questions, Turkish:

Did S5 have tantrums like this before the divorce?

Is he able to communicate in the middle of a tantrum, or too much out of control?

No, he's been pretty much consistantly tantrumy. He's actually handled the two home and seperation thing better than D2.

He's pretty much out of control. Hitting, yelling in short bursts while crying. His mom loves him, but I think there's some splitting going on sometimes and he's the target of her anger more than D2. I am firm with him, and even raise my voice, but so far he hasn't prayed to God for me to not be so angry like he has with his mother (and she thinks it's cute, which drives me up a wall).

I used to give him time outs, but I think the "abandonment" makes it worse, so I'm rethinking them. Lately, I've been just holding and soothing him (his mom always told me to do this with her, but I failed). It's seemed to calm him, but I don't know if I'm making him "weak" or more dependent. I never had a father, and my mother is a BPD Hermit-Waif, so I'm "inventing" as my T said.

D2 isn't like this (nor does she seem to be neurologically sensitve), though she has always been steadfast... when she does get mad and cry, I think she is messing with me on purpose sometimes, which seems like normal boundary testing.

My MIL (they still think of me as family) baby sits the kids. I see idealization of D2, the cute little princess. I've told her uncles, and also my Ex, that despite the natural tendency to fawn over the cute little girl, she's emotionally more resilient. S4 is the one at risk, and he needs more attention and validation.

BPD traits run in their family, mostly with the three eldest siblings, my Ex being the middle of the three... her father used to be a beater. There's obviously a FOO dynamic, but I can't rule out inborn traits. The kids' mom told me that she didn't even talk until she was 5, and she said her mom described her as something like intransigent. Maybe it's lost in language translation, but she said her mom described a term in Spanish for a little child not moving and stamping her feet. S4 can be like that, with the literal stamping of feet along with hitting. No language problems though! My vocabulary with them is the same as I have with any adult, the cintent being age appropriate, of course.

[SeaSprite]

He's pretty much out of control. Hitting, yelling in short bursts while crying. His mom loves him, but I think there's some splitting going on sometimes and he's the target of her anger more than D2. I am firm with him, and even raise my voice, but so far he hasn't prayed to God for me to not be so angry like he has with his mother (and she thinks it's cute, which drives me up a wall).

I used to give him time outs, but I think the "abandonment" makes it worse, so I'm rethinking them. Lately, I've been just holding and soothing him (his mom always told me to do this with her, but I failed). It's seemed to calm him, but I don't know if I'm making him "weak" or more dependent. I never had a father, and my mother is a BPD Hermit-Waif, so I'm "inventing" as my T said.

I don't think helping a child to feel safe and loved or teaching them to soothe would make them weak but rather the opposite, it would help them learn to feel secure in their place in the world. My vote is if soothing him helps, do that!  

My d20 - lots of tantrums. There are so many reasons a child might have tantrums, that there doesn't seem to be one right way to deal with them. I had read that some children respond well to being held and soothed when they were in a tantrum, and tried it a few times with my d. And she HATED it. She still remembers me doing it, and she says it was terrible. It wasn't what she needed at all!   For my d, she didn't usually have tantrums to "get something"- my kids learned really early that pitching a fit wouldn't get them a cookie.   But she would tantrum when getting dressed, or when she first woke from a nap.

Getting dressed was a sensory issue, there were a number of textures she couldn't stand, she couldn't deal with bumps in her socks or pants that were too loose or too tight. Right after a nap I suspect she was hypoglycemic (low blood sugar) because if I could get her to eat a spoonful of honey, (which she didn't want to do) she could calm down and then come eat lunch. (She is still hypoglycemic, but able to recognize and manage it, and she still has sensory issues that lead to some OCD symptoms when she's anxious- she still has a terrible time getting ready for work some days).

Time outs worked well when she was out of control and I couldn't tell why, I'd put her in her room, and tell her the timer would start when she was quiet. Then she got her age x 2 number of minutes. (When she was 3 she had the timer set for 6 minutes after she stopped screaming and throwing things. Sometimes it took a while for her to calm down, which meant it took a lot for me to stay calm. ) Then when the timer went off we would continue as if the tantrum had never happened.

She was also a crying mess if she got over stimulated or over tired- too long at a family party or a shopping mall, anywhere there was a lot of commotion.

Spending time outside, like at the playground or in a swimming pool helped her a lot. Swings and water are both very soothing to sensitive children, it does good things for their nervous systems.

I think (they might have a different opinion) that I didn't favor one of my girls over the other, but older d got more time because she needed more. It was different with their dad, he really doted on younger d, the one who looked well adjusted until she lost her way in middle school. Younger d could do no wrong, and she was always being told, even by total strangers, how pretty she was. I think her life was so easy that when challenges hit, she didn't know how to cope. Older d has had it harder her whole life, so she sort of learned to deal with her stuff. I'm hoping that it isn't too late for younger d to gain some resiliency as well.

The fact that you are noticing your son's issues and working to help him with them is a really good thing! He has a really good chance of thriving under your guidance, even if you feel like it's all trial and error. I think parenting always is, and even more so with a high needs kid.

The trick is to survive it as a parent... .it's exhausting!  

[livednlearned]

I used to give him time outs, but I think the "abandonment" makes it worse, so I'm rethinking them. Lately, I've been just holding and soothing him (his mom always told me to do this with her, but I failed). It's seemed to calm him, but I don't know if I'm making him "weak" or more dependent. I never had a father, and my mother is a BPD Hermit-Waif, so I'm "inventing" as my T said.

This was true for me, too, Turkish. I read "Raising Cain: The Emotional Life of Boys" to try and understand S13. If you soothe your son in a loving way and let him develop his own strong core sense of self (which involves having emotions that are "ok", he will not be weak. Quite the opposite. My son needed a lot of validation that I didn't give him until he was 10 and I learned about it, and he was very emotionally fragile like his dad. He is still very emotional, and is in a severe depression now at S13. But what is remarkable, and what gives me hope, and what people here have helped me so much with, is that S13 can ask for help and trusts me and other adults. He can talk about what he is experiencing and does not have shame about it.

You may not be able to "cure" your son and protect him from the hurts he experiences with his mom, but you present him with an alternative, and that is gold. He may experiment as he grows and developmentally, he may need to re-experiment each time he goes through a different stage of growth, and each time will send you on a roller coaster of worry and concern. Also, I think boys receive much harsher messages about what is and isn't acceptable emotionally, and that gets tougher as they get older. You have to help him redefine what it means to be "weak" so he can find his way.

I think holding him and soothing him is going to go a long way -- timeouts might be ok for kids who feel secure in their attachments, but might reinforce a negative story that makes things harder in the long-run.

What I notice with S13 is that he is telling himself two stories, and doesn't know which one to go with. When I hear him describe who he is, it's like one version is the "BPD dad" version, where he is the victim, he can't do anything right, he's a jerk, he's alone and anxious and depressed. The other version is what I represent. "When I look at things, I'm actually doing ok. I can fail and it's ok. I'm going to ask someone for help."

That might be the best I can do -- give him another story he can refer to. But it's up to our kids which story they go with, and it may change over time, and according to circumstances.

[pessim-optimist]

He's pretty much out of control. Hitting, yelling in short bursts while crying. His mom loves him, but I think there's some splitting going on sometimes and he's the target of her anger more than D2. I am firm with him, and even raise my voice, but so far he hasn't prayed to God for me to not be so angry like he has with his mother (and she thinks it's cute, which drives me up a wall).

I used to give him time outs, but I think the "abandonment" makes it worse, so I'm rethinking them. Lately, I've been just holding and soothing him (his mom always told me to do this with her, but I failed). It's seemed to calm him, but I don't know if I'm making him "weak" or more dependent. I never had a father, and my mother is a BPD Hermit-Waif, so I'm "inventing" as my T said.

I second the opinions already given. 

If you were still holding him at 15 I'd be seriously worried   but holding a toddler is a wonderful thing if that works for him. When they are babies, we soothe them. As they grow, they slowly learn to soothe themselves with our help. As time goes on, you can experiment with what would work for him and how to transition him little by little to soothe himself and hopefully at a faster pace. For now, you're good.

[livednlearned]

Pessim-optimist made me think of something else (that I didn't do and wish I did).

When you have a little guy who is sensitive, point out when he regulates his own emotions. "Little T, you were upset and instead of getting very upset, you took a few moments to feel what you were feeling, and then you calmed down and played nicely. Good job buddy! That's hard, and you did it."

I've had to do that with S13. In a lot of ways, I had to help him get from an emotional maturity of roughly 4 or 5 and help him get closer to 13 in a span of 4 years. Mostly, I point out when he handles things well. "Your dad showed up at church and it was surprising to both of us. I was surprised, and you were too. He came up to us right before you were going to get on stage, and even though you didn't know that was going to happen, you performed and remembered all of your lines. And even though it felt awkward for a few minutes, you handled your emotions, and everything went fine. You even felt ok to go say hi to him at intermission."

They need to know that they are good at managing their emotions, more so than most people, I think. Because they know, on some level, that they are a little different when it comes to their feelings. My son is very sensitive to stimuli and recognizes that he is different than the typical boy stereotype. But he is also 100 times more aware of how he feels and is a pro at communicating what he's experiencing.

The thing I'm most proud of is that he can now feel hurt, report it to me, and then announce how he is okay. Before, he would feel hurt and then try to hold me hostage, or tell me I didn't care, or get mad at me for caring the wrong way 

[pessim-optimist]

I think your kind responses have made me realise, my concerns may be more to do with my PTSD and partly my son’s ADHD apparently empathy is slow to come with ADHD. If the proffesionals won't diagnose, no sence worrying prematurly.  But anymore tips or views feel free to waid in.  

Also, HappyChappy, I remember reading a book called "How We Love" by Milan and Kay Yerkovich. It talks about our love-styles based on our upbringing and what we lacked in it. It also talks about how to get to a healthy, balanced love-style now as adults.

Why am I mentioning it? The book dedicates a chapter to healthy emotional child-development, and among other things it says that: we can only give what we have (i.e. if we are whole and healthy, we pass that on; if we had been shorted growing up, we pass that on too, unless we heal) It's a great book, and I think it might be of help.

(They also have a book called "How We Love Our Kids" I haven't read that one yet, but planning to)

[SeaSprite]

get mad at me for caring the wrong way   

Oh yes, that's a fun one isn't it!