Letting the idea that I was abused sink in

[vortex of confusion]

I am participating in a thread over on the staying board. Something was said that hit me rather hard and I want to get some input, validation, feedback, whatever.

It was in the context of an open relationship. Here is what was said:

"OK... .if she was telling me in joyful glowing details everything she did with him last night, that would be purely abusive."

When my husband and I were supposedly having an open relationship, he would tell me about all of the girls he was talking to at different times. I have to admit that there were times when I would ask if he was talking to anybody else. I wasn't wanting details as much as I wanted to know if things had progressed to a certain level. Basically, I wanted to know if he was getting busy with somebody else. It always bugged me that he seemed to want to talk to me about his escapades like one would talk about the weather. It never felt quite right but I wasn't sure why. I could never make him understand why I thought he should keep the details of his extracurriculars to himself and why I did NOT want to share the details of my relationships.

He loved hearing details about what I was doing. He enjoyed it so much that he would push me to give him details and would then want to be physical with me. As I type that out, it makes me sick at my stomach. Sure, people have kinks but I felt like he would push me to tell him things. I tried to set a boundary and tell him that I refused to tell him whether or not I was talking to my friend. I know he is my husband and deserves to know on some level. The problem is that he will ask too many questions and then get upset when I don't answer them.

[Split black]

I am participating in a thread over on the staying board. Something was said that hit me rather hard and I want to get some input, validation, feedback, whatever.

It was in the context of an open relationship. Here is what was said:

"OK... .if she was telling me in joyful glowing details everything she did with him last night, that would be purely abusive."

When my husband and I were supposedly having an open relationship, he would tell me about all of the girls he was talking to at different times. I have to admit that there were times when I would ask if he was talking to anybody else. I wasn't wanting details as much as I wanted to know if things had progressed to a certain level. Basically, I wanted to know if he was getting busy with somebody else. It always bugged me that he seemed to want to talk to me about his escapades like one would talk about the weather. It never felt quite right but I wasn't sure why. I could never make him understand why I thought he should keep the details of his extracurriculars to himself and why I did NOT want to share the details of my relationships.

He loved hearing details about what I was doing. He enjoyed it so much that he would push me to give him details and would then want to be physical with me. As I type that out, it makes me sick at my stomach. Sure, people have kinks but I felt like he would push me to tell him things. I tried to set a boundary and tell him that I refused to tell him whether or not I was talking to my friend. I know he is my husband and deserves to know on some level. The problem is that he will ask too many questions and then get upset when I don't answer them.

If youre dealing with someone with BPD. be thankful that you know who they are banging... .in all seriousness... .my BPD ex would cheat and cheat and cheat... .and at one point she recycled me so many times I lost count. Sometimes I would discover who she was with sometimes no. But If I wanted to have sex with her and hang out... .I had to suck it up. It made me sick to my stomach... .and now that I am over it... .I cant believe I allowed myself to eat those crumbs.

[vortex of confusion]

If youre dealing with someone with BPD. be thankful that you know who they are banging... .in all seriousness... .my BPD ex would cheat and cheat and cheat... .and at one point she recycled me so many times I lost count. Sometimes I would discover who she was with sometimes no. But If I wanted to have sex with her and hang out... .I had to suck it up. It made me sick to my stomach... .and now that I am over it... .I cant believe I allowed myself to eat those crumbs.

You are so right. I guess that is why I didn't really think of it as abuse. At least he was telling me. I was happy about that but at the same time, I didn't want or need to know that he took her out in the woods and all of the specifics right down to how long it took him to finish. And what bugged me even more was that he could get excited over them but not me. The only way he could get excited for me was if I started giving him details. It was so bad that I had to call him by my lovers name just to be intimate with him.

[Grey Kitty]

Hi Vortex, I hope you don't mind me following you over here... .I've got some pretty strong ideas about what is abusive and controlling, and what isn't... .and I think there are some subtle but very important boundaries.

You describe your H as turned on by kinky things (like you having other lovers). That is kinky. It isn't evil, and it isn't wrong, and probably isn't even something he chose--it is just how he is wired. (Just a person cannot change their orientation from straight to gay... .it is how they are wired)

Forcing you or badgering you into doing things for his kinks is abusive, and is wrong.   I'm so sorry he did this to you.

If he gives you permission to have another lover, that doesn't grant him the right to watch, or to ask you for details. If he forces you, or badgers you for it. Again, it is abusive. (I'd say that if he asked you it would be reasonable)

If you tell him he can play with other women or have other relationships, that is OK. If you don't want to hear about it, he's being abusive when he forces that information on you.

This sounds like it has been horribly traumatic to you. 

[vortex of confusion]

Hi Vortex, I hope you don't mind me following you over here... .I've got some pretty strong ideas about what is abusive and controlling, and what isn't... .and I think there are some subtle but very important boundaries.

 I don't mind. I used to have strong ideas about what I thought was abusive and controlling. Now, I don't know. I am just trying to make sense out of it all. In the past, I always thought that abuse was something big and obvious.

You describe your H as turned on by kinky things (like you having other lovers). That is kinky. It isn't evil, and it isn't wrong, and probably isn't even something he chose--it is just how he is wired. (Just a person cannot change their orientation from straight to gay... .it is how they are wired)

I guess that is what I am trying to make sense out of. I am willing to try just about anything but I need time to digest things. And, it is confusing for me to have my husband say one thing one day and then something else the next. I know he is the way he is but he sees himself as sick and twisted. I think it is only sick and twisted because he can't own up to it. I think he hates himself for being the way he is.

Forcing you or badgering you into doing things for his kinks is abusive, and is wrong.   I'm so sorry he did this to you.

I can't wrap my mind around the whole thing. I am still trying to figure it all out. There were times when I would express hesitancy and he would just keep pushing. It isn't that I was unwilling. It was that I needed time and space. His constant changing his mind and then expecting me to go along with whatever he wanted based on where he was had my head reeling. It is so unbelievably confusing to me.

If he gives you permission to have another lover, that doesn't grant him the right to watch, or to ask you for details. If he forces you, or badgers you for it. Again, it is abusive. (I'd say that if he asked you it would be reasonable)

I didn't mind him asking. What I minded was when I would try to tell him that I didn't want to talk about it, he would keep bringing it up. That is a theme through out our marriage. He is like an impulsive little kid that will keep asking and asking and asking until he gets what he wants. He becomes fixated and obsessed and won't stop until I comply. I argue with myself, ":)id he really force me or badger me for it or did I just give in because I was afraid of dealing with his obsessiveness?" And I wonder if I am even remembering things accurately. How many times can he ask before it becomes badgering? I have said something about him bringing something up too much and he will be like, "I have only brought it up 2 or 3 times." But, I already gave him an answer. Why did he keep asking? Is it all my fault because I was unable to say no or express doubt and stick with it? It is all my fault and he wasn't really abusing me because I went along with it. Am I the one that is being abusive for having a problem with this?

If you tell him he can play with other women or have other relationships, that is OK. If you don't want to hear about it, he's being abusive when he forces that information on you.

In all honesty, I feel like I asked for it. I was very upset with the fact that these other women got him so excited. The one time he was physical with another woman, I got really mad because he couldn't perform with me. And I said something about how much it hurt that he could perform with her but not me. I was trying to be general but then he went into detail about how things went with her. Maybe I could have tolerated things a little better he could have been honest without being too detailed. I am guessing that the all or none is part of the whole black and white thinking. My head was swimming and I thought that perhaps I was the one that was messed up because I wanted to know what he was doing in a general sense but did not want to know specifics. He was just the opposite.

This sounds like it has been horribly traumatic to you. 

Thanks! It has been terribly traumatic. When doing things that are already pretty non-traditional it makes it more difficult to sort out what is okay and what is not.

[Grey Kitty]

To me this sounds like abuse (which just happens to involve some kinky stuff), instead of kinkyness (which just happens to be abusive).

I guess that is what I am trying to make sense out of. I am willing to try just about anything but I need time to digest things. And, it is confusing for me to have my husband say one thing one day and then something else the next. I know he is the way he is but he sees himself as sick and twisted. I think it is only sick and twisted because he can't own up to it. I think he hates himself for being the way he is.

My disclaimer: I don't consider myself kinky, so I lack direct useful experience.

In a book-learning sort of way, I'm familiar with people who ARE kinky, and do have particular kinks or fetishes, and own that as a part of themselves, and seek out others with matching kinks, which are (sometimes) rather hard to find. Your H sure doesn't sound like that. He does sound tormented by himself, and like he doesn't accept himself. No surprise there with BPD, whether it is kinky or not.

At one time, my wife was looking for ways to pursue some kinky stuff as a way to hurt herself. She didn't pick that sort of person... .and seems decidedly uninterested in kinky things.

I would highly recommend you spend some time either reading the column (www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?show=blog) or listening to the podcast by Dan Savage (www.savagelovecast.com/) If you aren't familiar with him, he's an openly gay, kinky, non-monogamous advice columnist. He started out writing a sex advice column, but soon discovered that it was mostly relationship advice he was being asked for.

In addition to good advice on how to deal with your kinks in a healthy way... .he often has advice about abusive relationships, and is generally spot-on.

Heck, you could even ask him for advice if you want. (If you do, I'd love a link to it! Odds are he'd say DTMFA)

Your H might learn something about himself from exposure to this too... .

[vortex of confusion]

To me this sounds like abuse (which just happens to involve some kinky stuff), instead of kinkyness (which just happens to be abusive).

Thank you for this! That makes a whole lot of sense.

My disclaimer: I don't consider myself kinky, so I lack direct useful experience.

In a book-learning sort of way, I'm familiar with people who ARE kinky, and do have particular kinks or fetishes, and own that as a part of themselves, and seek out others with matching kinks, which are (sometimes) rather hard to find. Your H sure doesn't sound like that. He does sound tormented by himself, and like he doesn't accept himself. No surprise there with BPD, whether it is kinky or not.

I have a lot of friends that are into odd stuff but the whole basis is that things are consensual. Also, there is some pushing of the other's boundaries. However, everything that I have read has said that you might push them but you don't cross them. My lover likes things kinky. I have no problems with that at all. Being with him is such a stark contrast to my husband because my lover pays enough attention to know when to stop. There are times that he has stopped something because he felt me tense up. True kink requires both partners to be able to pay attention to what is said as well as what it unsaid. I wonder if a BPD could ever really be involved in kinky stuff because they lack the ability to be that aware.

At one time, my wife was looking for ways to pursue some kinky stuff as a way to hurt herself. She didn't pick that sort of person... .and seems decidedly uninterested in kinky things.

My husband seemed to seek out anybody that he could. There was one incident that I look back on and can only laugh because it was so confusing. I tried to get my husband to try some kinky stuff that did not involve the whole cuckold thing. He was decidedly uninterested if not flat out repulsed. But, he found one chick that was into BDSM and she wanted him to learn about being a dom and a bunch of other stuff. She added him to a bunch of groups and everything else. Of course, he told me that the two of them were just friends. I don't even remember how I found out about the while thing. I may have been one of those times when he gave me too much information. I was floored because everything that I have read about BDSM says that both parties have to be very self aware and they have to be able to be aware of their partner. So it really bugged me that he was unwilling to do anything of the sort with me and seemed to look down on me yet he was telling this other chick that he liked that sort of thing and wanted to learn all of that. Now, after reading on these boards, it is quite obvious that he was mirroring her.

I would highly recommend you spend some time either reading the column (www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?show=blog) or listening to the podcast by Dan Savage (www.savagelovecast.com/) If you aren't familiar with him, he's an openly gay, kinky, non-monogamous advice columnist. He started out writing a sex advice column, but soon discovered that it was mostly relationship advice he was being asked for.

I think I have heard of him. I'll have to check that out.

In addition to good advice on how to deal with your kinks in a healthy way... .he often has advice about abusive relationships, and is generally spot-on.

As I read here, I think I am getting a better grip on what is okay and what is not. The problems that I have with my husband have absolutely nothing to do with the kinks. Well, maybe a little. I don't like the fact that he can't get excited about me when it is just me and him. I hate that he tries to deny that he can only get interested if there is something like that involved. I have tested my theory out several times by mentioning something offhand and then seeing almost instant results. I am trying not to be vulgar. 

Heck, you could even ask him for advice if you want. (If you do, I'd love a link to it! Odds are he'd say DTMFA)

What does DTMFA mean? The things is that in my heart and mind and body, I know that the only way I am going to be happy is to eventually find a way to leave my husband. Oh, it would be so easy for me to do what he does and act like nothing ever happened. He is in his 12 step program and occasionally goes to therapy but he still doesn't understand why I might be hurt or bothered by some things. I feel like my husband's expectations of me are not healthy or realistic. What helped me to start seeing that is talking to so many different guys. I annoyed the hell out of most of them because I asked them all for ideas on how to get my husband interested in me.

Your H might learn something about himself from exposure to this too... .

I don't know if my husband is capable of learning from it. It is more than likely that he would be triggered. That is the other tricky thing for me. He is in a 12 step program for sex addiction. I feel like pretty much anything and everything is a trigger for him. I am afraid to discuss anything with him for fear of it being a trigger. Anything too sexual could trigger is SA. Anything that is too stressful could trigger his SA.

All I want is to be able to get busy with my husband without all of the crazy weirdness. In the 16.5 years that we have been married, that has not happened. It is so odd how being physical with my husband makes me feel dirty and guilty and weird. Most of the time it has to do with his reactions and the things that he says. I don't think he can touch me without doing a post mortem on the interaction afterwards. He wants to analyze every single physical encounter with me (or anybody really). My lover and I have had some really bad/awkward times but I don't think I have ever walked away feeling dirty or guilty, confused maybe, but never dirty or guilty.

[going places]

I would recommend you look in your community for a "battered women's shelter" that offers services to women who have been or are being abused (physically, emotionally, sexually, financially, etc).

They can plug you in with a counselor who can help you in all aspects of life; from counseling you thru your abuse, helping you recover, helping you get on your own two feet, etc.

The abuse you are enduing is unholy.

I pray you will have eyes to see that, and seek help.

[tim_tom]

Yes my friend, the idea that I was abused took me a month to accept. I had no idea

[Springle]

I'm coming to terms with this too, I believe I was abused unintentionally but a man with a troubling background who had never been taught how to respectfully and appropriately treat other people; who was self adsorbed and self centered in order to survive and protect himself.

Not unlike BPD I suppose.

I think the hardest part is that it was unintentional  that is sad because I don't know whether he will ever get better. I'm also torn constantly between being angry with him and feeling fiercely guilty for that anger and feeling sorry for him.

[outside9x]

Oh Man, and after raging, yelling etc, then catching her on a dating site and her refusing to get off telling me no one tells her what to do and say, I feel just terrible.    

I mean really, when they are having other partners, that doesn't hurt?  I think of love as being the only one.  I felt , she was just shopping for a replacement.  I was there until something better caught her eye.

That's cruel and who wants to be that kind of punishing relationship.  Yes, I loved her but why would you want to stay and be mistreated.

[vortex of confusion]

I think the hardest part is that it was unintentional  that is sad because I don't know whether he will ever get better. I'm also torn constantly between being angry with him and feeling fiercely guilty for that anger and feeling sorry for him.

That is where I am. I know that he didn't do it intentionally. Right now, he can see that what he did was abusive but I am not seeing much change. Yes, he is aware of his actions to a certain degree but he is still very irritable and snappy at times. Like you, I don't know whether to hate him or feel sorry for him. Most days I just feel disgusted by the whole thing.

[Grey Kitty]

What does DTMFA mean? The things is that in my heart and mind and body, I know that the only way I am going to be happy is to eventually find a way to leave my husband.

Dan Savage is VERY blunt and direct in talking about sex (doesn't have your concerns about being vulgar!) I couldn't tell you what it stands for without the forum software bleeping the answer. That and I am somewhat less comfortable using the sort of language he does.  

Just read a couple of his columns. (Severely NSFW) He applies that advice fairly frequently and you will understand 

Oh, it would be so easy for me to do what he does and act like nothing ever happened.

No it isn't easy. You've tried it and you feel dirty, guilty and weird after. OK, maybe it is easy, but the hangover makes it absolutely not worth it.

I don't know if my husband is capable of learning from it. It is more than likely that he would be triggered. That is the other tricky thing for me. He is in a 12 step program for sex addiction. I feel like pretty much anything and everything is a trigger for him. I am afraid to discuss anything with him for fear of it being a trigger. Anything too sexual could trigger is SA. Anything that is too stressful could trigger his SA.

I'm not in the business of helping your H heal. You shouldn't be there either. So this thought may have no useful outlet for you.

I seriously doubt that a 12-step SA program is going to help your H actually deal with any of this. The 12-step concepts that you have no control over this THING and must abstain from it seem wrong for him--he already is full to the brim of toxic shame about his sexuality. This will give him more reason to feel ashamed every time he fails... .and feel that way about everything he actually desires.

Pretty much designed to both fail, and likely contribute to killing his sexual desire with you, I'm afraid.

All I want is to be able to get busy with my husband without all of the crazy weirdness. In the 16.5 years that we have been married, that has not happened. It is so odd how being physical with my husband makes me feel dirty and guilty and weird.

    I don't know that it is possible. I think your only chance is to get yourself really clear and firm with your values and your boundaries... .and know that your H is confused and will trample your boundaries if you don't stop him. He also may not be interested then.

Are you saying that sex with your H has always felt wrong in that many years?   

[vortex of confusion]

Dan Savage is VERY blunt and direct in talking about sex (doesn't have your concerns about being vulgar!) I couldn't tell you what it stands for without the forum software bleeping the answer. That and I am somewhat less comfortable using the sort of language he does.  

My concern about being vulgar is due to having gotten a post or two edited for it being too vulgar. LOL.

Just read a couple of his columns. (Severely NSFW) He applies that advice fairly frequently and you will understand 

This is hilarious. I brought him up to my husband and my husband was familiar with him. He said, "Yeah, I know who he is. That is where I got those stupid ideas about non-monogamy." LOL. He had those ideas well before he ever read anything from that guy.

I'm not in the business of helping your H heal. You shouldn't be there either. So this thought may have no useful outlet for you.

I seriously doubt that a 12-step SA program is going to help your H actually deal with any of this. The 12-step concepts that you have no control over this THING and must abstain from it seem wrong for him--he already is full to the brim of toxic shame about his sexuality. This will give him more reason to feel ashamed every time he fails... .and feel that way about everything he actually desires.

One of my female friends and I have talked about this a bit. One of the problems that I have with the 12 step program is that it seems that it feeds the narcissism. Everything is about him and his healing and his problems. He has to focus on himself to the exclusion of everyone else. My husband is so blasted tied up in knots.

Pretty much designed to both fail, and likely contribute to killing his sexual desire with you, I'm afraid.

His sexual desire for me has always been a bit lacking. But, in the early days, I didn't really have enough experience or knowledge to know what was normal and what wasn't. I always had a sneaking suspicion that something wasn't quite right but I could never really put my finger on it. Besides, I was afraid that I would be seen as a slut or ___ for wanting it too much.

    I don't know that it is possible. I think your only chance is to get yourself really clear and firm with your values and your boundaries... .and know that your H is confused and will trample your boundaries if you don't stop him. He also may not be interested then.

I am getting better and setting boundaries in all areas. My husband's default response is usually NO. Most recently, my brother asked me to puppy sit while he was on his honey moon. My husband didn't want to do it and got all weird about it. I pushed for it and everything is just fine. My dog and the puppy are getting along just fine and the puppy seems quite happy.

Are you saying that sex with your H has always felt wrong in that many years?   

I wouldn't say that it felt wrong. It was more that something felt off or weird and I couldn't really put my finger on what it was. I don't think I was able to put my finger on it until I started talking to other guys and doing stuff with other guys. The biggest difference is that they seemed to be more present and a lot less mechanical. For years, I would joke with my husband, "Now kiss me like you mean it." The reason is that even the way he kissed me seemed to be a bit forced. Again, I don't want to get too detailed or vulgar but I think most of us know what it is like when the person we love grabs us and holds us and kisses us so very passionately. I can't remember my husband doing that. Am I misremebering? Am I putting a spin on things to fit my agenda? I don't know. I have no memories of my husband grabbing me and kissing me passionately. Most of that has happened as a result of me instigating it.

The one thing that has bugged me a lot is his tendency to want to talk about it so much. It is like he would prefer to talk about it then do it. I felt like every single move I made was being watched and recorded and calculated so that it could be analyzed later.

[Grey Kitty]

Now I'm sure that if Dan Savage read this thread his advice would be DTMFA!

Have you read enough of his columns to know what it stands for now?

[vortex of confusion]

Now I'm sure that if Dan Savage read this thread his advice would be DTMFA!

Have you read enough of his columns to know what it stands for now?

I went over and did a quick read of some of his stuff. I am pretty sure that it means Dump The MotherF*****g A$$hole! 

When I was reading some of the stuff, my first thought was, holy cr*p, there is no way I am going to send him a letter. He would rip me a new one for putting up with such craziness and would definitely tell me DTMFA!

[Grey Kitty]

Close enough: Dump The M*****F***er Already.

Despite being blunt and vulgar, Dan is gentle with people like you in an abusive r/s. He wouldn't rip you a new one. He would just tell you why you should DTMFA.

My guess having read him enough to chant some of his responses to things like this would be... .

#1: Your H is abusive

#2: You and your H are not sexually compatible.

Possibly #3: Your H has no F***ing idea what he wants/needs sexually, and isn't capable of doing things right with you as a consequence of it.

Glad you got a laugh out of it--I prodded you to read his version 'cuz Dan says it in such an entertainingly scathing way that I can't quite manage!

All that said... .if you follow Dan, it will probably help you figure out kinky stuff with your other lover... .and how important it really is to you. I highly recommend Dan!

[vortex of confusion]

Close enough: Dump The M*****F***er Already.

Despite being blunt and vulgar, Dan is gentle with people like you in an abusive r/s. He wouldn't rip you a new one. He would just tell you why you should DTMFA.

Hmmm, perhaps that would help me a bit. I'll have to think on that.

My guess having read him enough to chant some of his responses to things like this would be... .

#1: Your H is abusive

Must resist the urge to defend H. Must resist the urge to defend H.  When I see it stated like that, it really messes with my head and makes me ask: How can he be abusive? He only hit/shoved me one time. In his defense, I have also hit him. How can he be abusive? He has always come across as so enlightened? Before we got married, somebody made the comment, "Oh we aren't worried about him hurting you or abusing you. Now, we are worried that you would hurt him." That was said by somebody in MY family. Those words have haunted me. I am the one that is loud and a bit obnoxious. When people meet me, they tend not to forget me. I have a very strong presence about me. He is a lot more docile and less me than me. Not sure how else to describe it. From an outsiders point of view, he is certainly more religious and not nearly as, um, weird or open minded.

#2: You and your H are not sexually compatible.

Oh my, we are so unbelievably incompatible. It is actually quite funny because he used to go on and on about how great of a match we were in that arena. Frankly, I think he was kidding himself because I was rarely satisfied.

Possibly #3: Your H has no F***ing idea what he wants/needs sexually, and isn't capable of doing things right with you as a consequence of it.

My husband rarely has a clue about anything. I know that sounds so very mean but he has me scratching my head a lot (and always has) because he is so blasted intelligent and has advanced degrees and can sit and pontificate all day long. When it comes to know what HE wants and what HE needs in pretty much any arena, he doesn't have a clue.

Glad you got a laugh out of it--I prodded you to read his version 'cuz Dan says it in such an entertainingly scathing way that I can't quite manage!

I can't thank you enough for that. It gave me a good laugh as well as a bit more perspective.

All that said... .if you follow Dan, it will probably help you figure out kinky stuff with your other lover... .and how important it really is to you. I highly recommend Dan!

Kink isn't what is important to me. That part of things is very, very new to me as my husband never really wanted to explore much within our relationship. That is part of the reason that I felt like I was never enough for him. I have read so many things about how to spice up your marriage and how to get your husband interested. When he said he was afraid to fool around with me because of the kids, I got a babysitter and I suggested that we go to a cheap motel.

My lover and I fumble around a lot and don't even really see each other that much or talk to each other that much. There is an unspoken thing between us where we both seem to know that our primary focus is on our families. He has kids and a business and I have kids and work and so it is nice to be able to focus on my kids without having him badger me when I disappear at times. I can go without talking to him and he doesn't say a word. He will put stuff out there and let me decide whether or not I want to do it. I don't feel a lot of pressure.

[Grey Kitty]

#1: Your H is abusive

Must resist the urge to defend H. Must resist the urge to defend H.  When I see it stated like that, it really messes with my head and makes me ask: How can he be abusive? He only hit/shoved me one time. In his defense, I have also hit him. How can he be abusive? He has always come across as so enlightened? Before we got married, somebody made the comment, "Oh we aren't worried about him hurting you or abusing you. Now, we are worried that you would hurt him." That was said by somebody in MY family. Those words have haunted me. I am the one that is loud and a bit obnoxious. When people meet me, they tend not to forget me. I have a very strong presence about me. He is a lot more docile and less me than me. Not sure how else to describe it. From an outsiders point of view, he is certainly more religious and not nearly as, um, weird or open minded.

I can appreciate how hard it is to wrap your brain around this. My wife *used* to be abusive to me. She stopped a few years ago. I'll share a few stories... .

One thing was that she was raised with an alcoholic mother who had horrible rages when drunk, and was sometimes just mean. So my wife was terrified of anger. I finally figured out that her pattern when she was angry was this: Refuse to express the anger directly. Push my buttons. Repeat as needed until I got angry. (I am not an angry person, but also not afraid of anger) Eventually I would be yelling at her. She could blame me for being angry. Occasionally she would shout back at me, but seldom.

This is abusive. It went along with a lot of other projection and generally messing with my mind.

There were a couple times where the abuse escalated to physical abuse. I never let her push me into hitting her. I did restrain her when she was hitting herself a couple times. I'm also a little ashamed to admit that I let her push me until I hurt myself (banged my head on things). Twice. After the first time I told myself never again. Didn't quite make it. Never did it a third time. Pretty sure I won't.

The escalation made me and just about everybody who knew of it very scared--because the nature of abusive situations is that it doesn't tend toward stability--When it starts escalating, it will probably keep escalating. You may end up in the hospital next time.


When I refused to stick around for abuse, and refused to accept her crazy views of reality and what I was thinking, it made life a lot better for me. It also took away one of her coping mechanisms. She went through some really dark, tough times while she was finding better ones... .which she eventually did.


At its core, abuse is about fear and control. The abuser isn't the louder or weirder one. The abuser is the one who is making the other afraid, and making them do things or preventing them from doing things with the fear.

[vortex of confusion]

I can appreciate how hard it is to wrap your brain around this. My wife *used* to be abusive to me. She stopped a few years ago. I'll share a few stories... .

One thing was that she was raised with an alcoholic mother who had horrible rages when drunk, and was sometimes just mean. So my wife was terrified of anger. I finally figured out that her pattern when she was angry was this: Refuse to express the anger directly. Push my buttons. Repeat as needed until I got angry. (I am not an angry person, but also not afraid of anger) Eventually I would be yelling at her. She could blame me for being angry. Occasionally she would shout back at me, but seldom.

Thanks for this! Mine refuses to express anger directly as well. He seems to lack the ability to say, "When you do x, it makes me mad." Instead, he will be passive aggressive and be a bit of a tool. When I am at work, he will email me almost constantly. Last night, I decided to shut my email and not respond. I checked it just before I left work and there were three or four more messages. I only work 4 hour shifts. Anyway, I get home and he has that look and that stance. His body language is very defensive. He says in that tone of voice, "Is there a reason that you didn't email me after 7?" And I knew when I stopped emailing him that I was going to get in trouble or have some kind of fall out. I was afraid to come home from work because I knew that he would confront me about not emailing him.

This is abusive. It went along with a lot of other projection and generally messing with my mind.

That's the hardest part is figuring out what is real and what is not. He conveniently forgets what he said or will deny stuff. It is a real mind f**k because there are times when I think that I am the one that is in the wrong because of the way he tends to twist things.

There were a couple times where the abuse escalated to physical abuse. I never let her push me into hitting her. I did restrain her when she was hitting herself a couple times. I'm also a little ashamed to admit that I let her push me until I hurt myself (banged my head on things). Twice. After the first time I told myself never again. Didn't quite make it. Never did it a third time. Pretty sure I won't.

It escalated to physical one time. I am still not sure how it happened. And I am still not sure if it was my fault. It was late at night and I was trying to get the kids settled down. He was asleep and got woke up for some reason. I was trying to get into the bedroom and he was trying to get out. I know we exchanged words. I was holding our youngest daughter who was still a baby. Anyway, he shoved me so hard that I fell down into a bunch of stuff. I held my daughter tight and protected her but my arms got all bruised up from how I fell. He still swears that he didn't push me. I did lose my head and hit him. I am still not sure how exactly it happened. I know he was up in my face with his chest all puffed up yelling at me to hit him.

The escalation made me and just about everybody who knew of it very scared--because the nature of abusive situations is that it doesn't tend toward stability--When it starts escalating, it will probably keep escalating. You may end up in the hospital next time.

A few people have noticed his tendency to overreact to little things. I was talking about it with my brother and his wife and they have both noticed that he will freak out over the smallest things. My brother says that he gets so mad and so red that it looks like he is about to have a heart attack or something. Hearing my brother say that was very validating to me because I had noticed it and thought it but it was always sort of dismissed as, "If you had x happen to you, you would be upset too." Um, yeah, I would be upset but I would not react to that degree.

When I refused to stick around for abuse, and refused to accept her crazy views of reality and what I was thinking, it made life a lot better for me. It also took away one of her coping mechanisms. She went through some really dark, tough times while she was finding better ones... .which she eventually did.

I have been trying to make him aware of his abusiveness and have been trying to unplug. I can see that it is making him a bit unhinged. What normal person would get so disturbed that their partner didn't email while at work? If I was working really long shifts, maybe. But even then, I am getting paid to do a job not sit and email with him.


At its core, abuse is about fear and control. The abuser isn't the louder or weirder one. The abuser is the one who is making the other afraid, and making them do things or preventing them from doing things with the fear.[/quote]

[Grey Kitty]

This is the "Leaving" board here, and I normally post from a staying perspective. If straying too far from ":)TMFA" is against the rules on this board... .I'm sorry! 

As for the email thing. Here's what I'd recommend on the staying board: Set a boundary. A simple one is "don't bother me at work, unless it is an emergency." (Relationship problems are not an emergency. YOU get to chose.)

Don't even open your email there. Ignore phone calls, or texts. Somebody commented that upon listening to voicemails they hit delete at the first sound of anything negative.

No, his reaction is not normal or healthy. But he's not normal or healthy either, so don't expect it from him.

That's the hardest part is figuring out what is real and what is not. He conveniently forgets what he said or will deny stuff. It is a real mind f**k because there are times when I think that I am the one that is in the wrong because of the way he tends to twist things.

That is the best reason to set a boundary of leaving these circular arguments. The mindf**k is real, even if you know it is happening. For your sanity and your safety, just leave when he won't stop it. It is OK to refuse to participate in a conversation for reasons other than it being directly abusive.

It escalated to physical one time. I am still not sure how it happened. And I am still not sure if it was my fault. It was late at night and I was trying to get the kids settled down. He was asleep and got woke up for some reason. I was trying to get into the bedroom and he was trying to get out. I know we exchanged words. I was holding our youngest daughter who was still a baby. Anyway, he shoved me so hard that I fell down into a bunch of stuff. I held my daughter tight and protected her but my arms got all bruised up from how I fell. He still swears that he didn't push me. I did lose my head and hit him. I am still not sure how exactly it happened. I know he was up in my face with his chest all puffed up yelling at me to hit him.

OK. Let me say this.

It is not your fault.

It is really NOT your fault.

It is NOT your fault!

Can believe this?


There is nothing even vaguely acceptable about being in your face yelling at you to hit him. Even if he didn't push you. The possibility that he could have done something clearly worse (and might next time!) doesn't make him any less responsible for his actions either.

I do recommend you get OUT of situations like that faster in the future... .preferably before you hit him!

There were many times where I left... .trying not to slam the door, and trying not to shout as I said "If I stay any longer I'll say or do something that I'll regret later." Sometimes I was able to sound fairly calm as I did this. Other times I wasn't. The only regret I EVER had about doing that was that I didn't do it a few minutes earlier.

[Split black]

If youre dealing with someone with BPD. be thankful that you know who they are banging... .in all seriousness... .my BPD ex would cheat and cheat and cheat... .and at one point she recycled me so many times I lost count. Sometimes I would discover who she was with sometimes no. But If I wanted to have sex with her and hang out... .I had to suck it up. It made me sick to my stomach... .and now that I am over it... .I cant believe I allowed myself to eat those crumbs.

You are so right. I guess that is why I didn't really think of it as abuse. At least he was telling me. I was happy about that but at the same time, I didn't want or need to know that he took her out in the woods and all of the specifics right down to how long it took him to finish. And what bugged me even more was that he could get excited over them but not me. The only way he could get excited for me was if I started giving him details. It was so bad that I had to call him by my lovers name just to be intimate with him.

At least you are hooking up and not stuck sitting and waiting for him. I hope you dont end up ripping your lovers heart out im the process of getting over your ex whack job. For me... .mass dating is was the key to getting my mojo back, and in that process, which is on going... .the fog has lifted and I just want to smack my self for a year and a half of feces eating torture co-mingled with sex she would dole out if she could find some other use for me... .like giving her money for drugs and rent.      

[vortex of confusion]

At least you are hooking up and not stuck sitting and waiting for him. I hope you dont end up ripping your lovers heart out im the process of getting over your ex whack job. For me... .mass dating is was the key to getting my mojo back, and in that process, which is on going... .the fog has lifted and I just want to smack my self for a year and a half of feces eating torture co-mingled with sex she would dole out if she could find some other use for me... .like giving her money for drugs and rent.      

Not really hooking up. Maybe I am kidding myself though. My friend and I primarily message on FB with a few texts here and there. We have been talking since May of 2013 and I think we have only seen each other in person 5 or 6 times. We talked to close to a year before going all the way. Neither one of us have the time to be hooking up and getting together that much. Besides, I think his wife takes the cake on BPD traits. She is bisexual and has had girlfriends most of their relationship. She has left him 30 some time in the course of their relationship. We were going to get together one night and he never responded and seemed to have disappeared on me. When I finally got a hold of him, I found out his wife maced him when he tried to leave the house. She has filed for divorce repeatedly. One thing that we both have in common is that we are both very wounded and are not about to get in too deep. She has filed charges on him for domestic abuse. She has tried to have a hit taken out on him.

I told my whack job husband tonight that emotionally I am done. yes, we have four kids and need to find a way to be friendly but I am emotionally done. Not 5 minutes later, he wants to cuddle with me. I was like, "Um, I don't feel like cuddling." And he says, "I'm just feeling really down. Why can't we cuddle? Friends cuddle." All I could say was, "Really, in the 16.5 years that we have been married, there have been times when all I wanted was somebody to be there for me and maybe hold me or tell me that everything was going to be okay. But you didn't do that. You weren't there for me so I had to figure it out on my own and be there for myself." 

[SpringInMyStep]

He loved hearing details about what I was doing. He enjoyed it so much that he would push me to give him details and would then want to be physical with me. As I type that out, it makes me sick at my stomach. Sure, people have kinks but I felt like he would push me to tell him things. I tried to set a boundary and tell him that I refused to tell him whether or not I was talking to my friend. I know he is my husband and deserves to know on some level. The problem is that he will ask too many questions and then get upset when I don't answer them.

Oh wow, my ex wife did the same thing! We were poly and it became clear that the arrangement wasn't working for me. But she would get more amorous with me after being with someone else and I didn't like it! Yours seems to disrespect your boundaries and that's one of the key factors in open relationships along with trust and communication.

[vortex of confusion]

Oh wow, my ex wife did the same thing! We were poly and it became clear that the arrangement wasn't working for me. But she would get more amorous with me after being with someone else and I didn't like it! Yours seems to disrespect your boundaries and that's one of the key factors in open relationships along with trust and communication.

Exactly!

I had done a lot of research on poly relationships. I have some friends that are in poly or open relationships and that is what they have indicated as well. I could never seem to get that across to my husband. It wasn't that I was dead set against him being with other people. It was that I didn't like his blatant disrespect of me. I didn't like that he would get so excited about talking to these other people. He would talk about his other relationships even if they were only email and would go on and on and on. He would talk to me about it like I was his best friend rather than his wife. I wanted a situation where IF either of us were talking to other people or doing anything with other people it was done on the down low while keeping our relationship and the kids as the top priority. Does that make sense? I saw our relationship as the top priority. It took precedent over anyone and everyone else. If I tried to question him or share my frustrations with him, he would get upset and say that I was trying to have a double standard where I could have somebody and he couldn't. That isn't what I was trying to say at all but he would twist things such that I lost all ability to communicate.

[Grey Kitty]

Vortex, this caught my eye:

Besides, I think his wife takes the cake on BPD traits.

What do you think about a relationship where your biggest common ground is having a wildly abusive spouse?

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, this caught my eye:

Besides, I think his wife takes the cake on BPD traits.

What do you think about a relationship where your biggest common ground is having a wildly abusive spouse?

If that was the biggest common ground, I wouldn't still be talking to him. Our spouses rarely come up these days. I honestly don't know what to think about the relationship at the moment. In all honesty, my focus is on my work and my kids and figuring stuff out at home. He doesn't pressure me and I try not to pressure him. We share a lot of the same interests and have a lot of the same attitudes about things. We both have pretty twisted senses of humor. There is no way I could even begin to list the commonalities between us. Maybe he is lying to me. Maybe we are mirroring each other or projecting. Who knows? I sure as heck don't. My biggest concern is finding a way to improve myself and taking care of my kids. My friend has never stood in the way of me taking care of my kids. He knows what my obligations and priorities are and he respects that. Both of us are head over heals about our daughters. He knows of my desire to figure out how to give my girls the best possible. I don't feel like I have ever lied to him about where I am with anything. He knows that I am confused and flaky but he sticks around. There are no pretenses about anything.

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks for clarifying that, Vortex... .Your lover sounds much more together than your H, and the r/s with him sounds far more healthy.

As for the poly relationship stuff, and how badly your H deals with it: Here is a fundamental concept for you to consider... .more or less borrowed from the book "More than Two", or more precisely the associated blog, since I haven't read the book.

Don't treat people or relationships as "things". They don't exist solely to meet your needs. That's pretty much what your H is doing with the interest he takes in your other relationships/escapades.

You are living proof how badly that works.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for clarifying that, Vortex... .Your lover sounds much more together than your H, and the r/s with him sounds far more healthy.

Yes, he is way more together. He went through a period where I would ask him, "How are you?" and he would tell me, "comfortably numb". One of the times that we saw each other in person, I told him that I loved him and he said, "We don't need any of that." I was kind of relieved because my husband has always said "I love you" with wreckless abandon. My lover never says it but for some strange reason I think he might have feelings for me too. He stood by me during one of the times in my life when I felt so unbelievably dysregulated and off my rocker. One of the things that he said to me was to forget about him for a while and focus on myself. He actually gave me quite a few really good pieces of advice. He told me to start making lists of things that I want and need to do and to stop worrying about him or my husband. I needed to focus on myself and my kids and that he would be in the background while I did my thing.

Don't treat people or relationships as "things". They don't exist solely to meet your needs. That's pretty much what your H is doing with the interest he takes in your other relationships/escapades.

You are living proof how badly that works.

I could not seem to get my husband to understand that. I didn't like the way he was treating me and I didn't like the way he was treating those other women. There were actually a few of them that I contacted. Two of them are still on my FB page. I told them that my problem wasn't with him talking to other women but how he was treating me. I joked with one of them that it was kind of like a man fax sort of thing. She immediately took him out of some of the groups that she had added him to because he was telling her a line of crap a mile long. Maybe I shouldn't have contacted them but at the same time I felt like he was just going to feed them a bunch of crap. He had already disappeared on several other women that he had been talking to online. If I would so much as ask a question or express discomfort with anything, he would go delete his email account and not even bother to say goodbye or anything to those women.

It is amazing that my lover has stuck around because my husband has given and rescinded permission so many times that it isn't even funny. I know I seem like the bad guy because I am "cheating" and my husband is not. I gave my husband ample opportunities to check into the relationship. I felt like he was playing a game with me to try to get my lover to dump me or get pissed off at me or something. And after a while when I saw that my lover wasn't going to disappear, I decided to hell with my husband. It is no longer up to him. I developed feelings for my friend and I cannot throw him away at the whim of my husband.

This is kind of funny. The first time I met him in person, he took me to lunch. It was an innocent lunch date. We sat in a restaurant for an hour or two and then went and sat out by a pond and talked and kissed a little bit. Anyway, this meeting sticks out for me because I ordered a salad with ranch dressing. I went to the restroom and the food came out. He didn't think there would be enough dressing so he asked them to bring me some more. So, I came out of the restroom and he had asked them to get me more dressing. I know it is small and silly but in all my years with my husband he never ever did anything like that for me.

[Grey Kitty]

It is amazing that my lover has stuck around because my husband has given and rescinded permission so many times that it isn't even funny. I know I seem like the bad guy because I am "cheating" and my husband is not. I gave my husband ample opportunities to check into the relationship. I felt like he was playing a game with me to try to get my lover to dump me or get pissed off at me or something. And after a while when I saw that my lover wasn't going to disappear, I decided to hell with my husband. It is no longer up to him. I developed feelings for my friend and I cannot throw him away at the whim of my husband.

I think you are handling this ugly situation as gracefully as possible.

I absolutely believe that consent of your spouse is a requirement for starting another r/s like this. This is one of my strongest values, and it is about as black-and-white as it gets.

The situation where one lover grants consent, and later withdraws it after the relationship is established is a different mess. I can't get behind any black and white one size fits all answer on how to deal with that situation.

I believe your choice to continue with your lover is completely valid, given the crap games your H is playing with you. I hope you aren't needing/choosing to lie to your H about this.

So, I came out of the restroom and he had asked them to get me more dressing. I know it is small and silly but in all my years with my husband he never ever did anything like that for me.

This brings me right back to the topic title: How are you doing at letting the idea that your husband abused you in? Believing it? Feeling it?

[vortex of confusion]

I think you are handling this ugly situation as gracefully as possible.

Not sure if it graceful or just stunned.

I absolutely believe that consent of your spouse is a requirement for starting another r/s like this. This is one of my strongest values, and it is about as black-and-white as it gets.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. In the beginning, it was HIS idea. All of this started out because I was lonely and bored and answered an online ad. I talked to the guy for a day or two before telling my husband. I knew it wasn't right even though I was only exchanging online messages. Instead of my husband seeing it for what it was, which was that our relationship was in serious trouble, he saw it as an opportunity for both of us to see other people. In the beginning, I was excited about it because he was excited about it and was giving me more attention than he had in ages.

The situation where one lover grants consent, and later withdraws it after the relationship is established is a different mess. I can't get behind any black and white one size fits all answer on how to deal with that situation.

In the beginning, I was trying to honor his wishes when he would change his mind. It was all new so I knew there would be some bumps in the road. The problem is that when he would get jealous or have issues he would have really crappy reactions and would want to put a stop to it all. And then, he would decide to go back to our original agreement and would seek out other people again. In my opinion, he wasn't jealous of the fact that I was with another guy. He was jealous of the fact that he couldn't find anybody like I had.

I believe your choice to continue with your lover is completely valid, given the crap games your H is playing with you. I hope you aren't needing/choosing to lie to your H about this.

Oh no, I am not lying to him. There was a short period of time where I refused to talk to my husband about whether or not I was talking to my friend. If I said I wasn't talking to him, then my husband would start trash talking him and get upset that my friend did me wrong or some crap like that. If I said I was talking to him, then my husband would want details or get pi$$y with me. Nothing that I said or did was right so I refused to talk about it at all. Now that my husband has chilled out again, I have told him that I am still talking to my friend. I don't like lying and that was part of the reason that it was all such a mind mess. My husband had my permission but he would still lie to me about who he was talking to and what his intentions were. He would tell me, "Oh, we are just friends and we don't talk about that." But then I would find out that he was indeed going there if you know what I mean.

This brings me right back to the topic title: How are you doing at letting the idea that your husband abused you in? Believing it? Feeling it?

The idea is slowly sinking in. I have been slowly digesting it for 6 months or so. I found a book about verbal abuse about 6 months ago that really stunned me and woke me up a bit. Prior to that, I knew something wasn't right but wasn't exactly sure. I will never forget a time that I wrote a rather long blog post about micromessages. I was trying to tell him about how the micromessages (small nonverbal or verbal things) can negate a lot of positive stuff. I was trying to point out some of the little mean things that he says or does. He got all indignant with me and said, "Well, what you are doing now is a micromessage." The implication in the context of the conversation was that I was being mean to him by trying to bring this stuff up. I also wrote a blog post about gaslighting years ago. I was looking at both of those things in the context of parenting and how parents often do those things to kids. I was so blinded that I didn't realize that HE had been doing those things to me for years.

He and I have talked about some his abusive behaviors. I hate it because he will say stuff like, "I know I have been an abusive a$$hole and that is why I am going to let you go and not fight anything." What the heck? It makes me so mad because I feel like he is using that as an excuse to check out even further. I told him that I felt like I was emotionally done with our relationship and turned it around and said that it was going to complicate his recovery because it would make it harder for him to have a reason to continue. UGGGGG!

[Grey Kitty]

I'm glad you are coming to terms with the abuse. It is hard to acknowledge, and hard to accept that you let him do this to you. 

He and I have talked about some his abusive behaviors. I hate it because he will say stuff... .

Just end conversations where he goes into mind-f**k stuff about his abusive behavior.

There was a time I told my wife this, and I repeated it whenever she tried to turn crap around and make it be about me:

Abuse is fundamentally about control. You have been abusive. I am not saying I have no issues to work on, however if I involve you in any way, I would be ceding control over it to you. Stopping the abuse is the first step, and is not negotiable. I will not concede or negotiate anything to get you to stop abusing me.