My wife won't come back. I'm moving forward

[Depression = 72% of members]

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.

I know that feeling and that is why I have moved over to the leaving board. I want to mentally detach and start paving the way for us to separate. If I participate too much in the staying boards, I start feeling a bit hopeless. There are days when I wish he would just leave because the things that he says and does really get under my skin and when I try to let him know, he turns it around on me or finds a way to push back and make it sound as though I am not being reasonable.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.

I know that feeling and that is why I have moved over to the leaving board. I want to mentally detach and start paving the way for us to separate. If I participate too much in the staying boards, I start feeling a bit hopeless. There are days when I wish he would just leave because the things that he says and does really get under my skin and when I try to let him know, he turns it around on me or finds a way to push back and make it sound as though I am not being reasonable.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MissyM]

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.

Yes!   That level of detachment and living your own life tells me you are choosing what is right for YOU.  That seems to be when change in our lives occurs.  This is when a business opportunity came up for me.  It is also when my dBPDh decided to really get in recovery because I wasn't going to be in a relationship like ours had been.  That shift within ourselves is huge!  I wish I could have really gotten this earlier but it took a long time and a lot of work for this to happen. 

[Grey Kitty]

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.

I know that feeling and that is why I have moved over to the leaving board. I want to mentally detach and start paving the way for us to separate. If I participate too much in the staying boards, I start feeling a bit hopeless.

I posted one thread on Leaving. I see a lot of unresolved resentment, anger and hurt toward an ex or STBex there, and don't find it helpful for me. I've followed a few people like you over there from the Staying board. I can't spend much time there--I'm into forgiveness. (Which isn't the same as giving her a second chance--that's a whole 'nuther question that I'm still working!)

Yes!   That level of detachment and living your own life tells me you are choosing what is right for YOU.  That seems to be when change in our lives occurs. ... .

I wish I could have really gotten this earlier but it took a long time and a lot of work for this to happen.

Yes, this sort of resolve is where things happen. I hit it a few years back over the abusive aspects of our r/s. I changed. Then she changed.

I'm there again, this time about making my own choices instead of chasing hers all over the planet. I'm changing.

I'm less certain that she will change this time... .or that she will do it before I've moved on.

[MissyM]

I'm there again, this time about making my own choices instead of chasing hers all over the planet. I'm changing.

I'm less certain that she will change this time... .or that she will do it before I've moved on.

Yep, that is the part you have no control over.  It can go either way but YOU will be in a better place no matter what she chooses.

[vortex of confusion]

I posted one thread on Leaving. I see a lot of unresolved resentment, anger and hurt toward an ex or STBex there, and don't find it helpful for me. I've followed a few people like you over there from the Staying board. I can't spend much time there--I'm into forgiveness. (Which isn't the same as giving her a second chance--that's a whole 'nuther question that I'm still working!)

Yes, there is most definitely a lot of resentment, anger, and hurt. I have a whole lot of years of that built up.  I try not to wallow in it but it is good to find a safe place to get it out. Getting out 18 years worth of questioning my own sanity is helping me to forgive myself as well as him.

How did you get to the place where you didn't have the anger, resentment, and hurt?

[ziniztar]

I posted one thread on Leaving. I see a lot of unresolved resentment, anger and hurt toward an ex or STBex there, and don't find it helpful for me. I've followed a few people like you over there from the Staying board. I can't spend much time there--I'm into forgiveness. (Which isn't the same as giving her a second chance--that's a whole 'nuther question that I'm still working!)

My feelings exactly. Not many people there with ex's willing to get treatment, trying all they could, but failing. I felt some comfort in the dating and building healthy relationships board, but... .still different. It's allmost like I'm in limbo now. I don't feel that much anger, resentment... just a lot of hurt and sadness.

GK, I was just wondering as I never read this: how much treatment did your wife get and why did you see her as 'recovered' prior to this episode?

[ziniztar]

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.

Yes!    That level of detachment and living your own life tells me you are choosing what is right for YOU.  That seems to be when change in our lives occurs.  This is when a business opportunity came up for me.  It is also when my dBPDh decided to really get in recovery because I wasn't going to be in a relationship like ours had been.  That shift within ourselves is huge!  I wish I could have really gotten this earlier but it took a long time and a lot of work for this to happen.  

Again, hear hear. I feel I'm leaning towards healthier r/s and towards healthier people. I also was very adiment about not contacting dBPDxbf for a while, it wasn't healthy for me. And as soon as I made that choice, after three weeks of NC, he contacted me. I'd really like to know what is happening in his head right now. Oh wait, maybe I don't... Either way I haven't responded his calls and it feels good for now.

Schema therapy describes this type of occupation like this by the way: "Enmeshed/Underdeveloped Self - Excessive emotional involvement and/or bond with 1 or multiple others to the cost of being oneself or a normal social development. Feelings of engulfment and feelings of enmeshment (melting into one person) are associated with this." I think it's when you stop this, things change. But even though you've read about it a dozen times and think you can prevent that point of no return, you can't. You have to be fed up with it and have to be willing to let go. I have to say: I recognize the friends and brother I have this type of bond with, and the feelings of engulfment. Never had those with dBPDxbf, though.

[Grey Kitty]

GK, I was just wondering as I never read this: how much treatment did your wife get and why did you see her as 'recovered' prior to this episode?

She didn't do any sort of formal treatment plan for BPD, instead working on herself in a variety of ways. I do not think it would be a repeatable solution, nor would I expect most members to accept some parts of it! So I've been vague about it here. Here's a list of sorts:

• First step... .she was looking for a workshop to help us... .and found one for couples trying to recover from an abusive r/s... .and read about it... .and realized that she was the abusive one, not me. And then admitted it to me (!)



• Self-examination, some of which started during an encounter she had with a guy at Burning Man, and was without my consent. (Not her current level of cheating that time!) Whatever this encounter was, it had three results: My wife found something healing and helpful. The guy found something else healing and helpful. And two years of conflict b/t me and my wife over her desire to see this guy more. It happens that this guy was a very wise and kind and helpful person, and today is a good friend of both mine and hers today... .like an ex-lover to her now.



• Several bouts with marriage counseling; we re-started a couple times in different places with different T.



• The support of another lover (with my consent) who head-over-heels fell for her. (And also happened to be very codependent)



• A well run "large group awareness training" program, which has a very interesting mix of things sex positive, and inner child type work called the Human Awareness Institute.
  
  Her final breakthrough where she let go of self-hatred and stopped using abuse of me came at one of these.

My definition of 'recovered' was that her internal self-hatred finally went away. And stopped driving her to attempt to abuse me as a way of coping with it. The abusive traits always were worse when she was depressed, and after the 'recovery' last year, she was as depressed as I've ever seen her, plus coping with terrible anxiety. (Her lover mentioned above died suddenly a year ago!) ... .and didn't lash out at me then. In fact, she's not been verbally abusive to me while she's been cheating. I've not been abusive to her... .but I've also open with my hurt and anger.

I would say that she has always been very much on the higher functioning side of things too, and (relatively) self-aware and willing to change to improve herself... .obviously with some blind spots.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, there is most definitely a lot of resentment, anger, and hurt. I have a whole lot of years of that built up.  I try not to wallow in it but it is good to find a safe place to get it out. Getting out 18 years worth of questioning my own sanity is helping me to forgive myself as well as him.

How did you get to the place where you didn't have the anger, resentment, and hurt?

Good question! If I could bottle some up and email it to you, I would! 

I guess I do still go through those sorts of feelings. I just had GREAT conversations with two different friends today that I hadn't spoken with since this round of cheating began. I know I expressed some anger just today. So that's still there.

I sure go through some times with the hurt now and again. Perhaps more loss over what my marriage used to be, or what I thought it used to be.

Not sure where the resentment went. Maybe I'm not very susceptible to it. I'm prone to backing off before I give to the point that it feels like a sacrifice to me. I'm a fan of the expression: ":)rinking poison and expecting the other person to die." to describe such things.

I have a very dear friend... .who I didn't know was such a good friend until I called her about this three weeks ago... .but it is VERY heartening that in my darkest hour I made such an AMAZING choice to call her. Again, proof to me that when I choose for myself, I choose well!

She's been a lifeline, and she's expressed amazement at how far I've come in this time, and how much better I sound now than I did then. I've spoken with her nearly every day since then. If she was billing me for therapy, and this has better for me than any therapist I could imagine... .I'd owe her at least $4k and counting. And when I thank her, she says "My Pleasure."     And it really is helping her too with things she needs to work through, so I believe her.

What have I DONE to get over the hurt, anger, and resentment?

1. I've allowed myself to feel them when they come.

2. I've discovered that there are ways I can live my life that will be so much better for me that I'm getting excited about my future... .whether it is with or without my wife!

[patientandclear]

The feeling that has suddenly bounced up once or twice, and utterly shocked me is very different.

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.

This is what happened to me, too. It shocked me, too. My ex wanted to reconnect. I ultimately said no (unless something major had changed for him) because I played it out in my head and realized that if I were sitting across from him, the feelings I used to have for him that permitted all that was so wonderful between us, were changed. I don't appreciate his choices and his choices were to turn away from me/us. So be it. I wish he hadn't made those choices but he did. It changes things. I can no longer put the same feelings on the table for him.

And I think ... .That's how it should be. If we want not to tip over the line into abuse.

[Grey Kitty]

Wow. What a morning!

Was up, sitting with my coffee... .writing a post here, even. In comes a text... .

Wife: Are u up?

At this point, I'm freaking out. I've just hit a really vulnerable place of growth regarding control battles between myself and my wife. Ack! Ack! Ack! I can't deal with her right now! (Freak out about appearing online on FB so she knows I'm ignoring her... .etc. etc. etc.)

I finish reply or two, and realize that it is time for my morning meditation. I've started within 15 minutes. After that, my phone rings. Of course it is her. Notice that I didn't set my meditation timer, fix that, and resume meditating.

Notice the voicemail isn't about any of the heavy stuff I can't address with her right now. It is probably about the personal business I was in touch with her over yesterday.

Text my friend for ~10 minute support call. She's up. I call. Whew. I needed that.

Thought about what I wanted to say in a text. Knew that I wanted to finish getting my bank account open first if I could before the conversation. Also knew that I wanted to work on the boat t his morning as there may be rain this afternoon.

Spent lots of time crafting this text response to the text & call... .Kept making it more active, more stating what I wanted, less leaving her room to decide what to do.

Me: I was meditating when you called. I'm busy this morning. Would you like to talk later in the day?

Wife: Yes, please call later.

Me: Will do.

This was amazing. I took something that had some really huge parts I couldn't handle... .and shoved those aside, and made it into a small thing. And made it about making my choices, and doing what I wanted. The HUGE fight was me against my old habits.

My wife wasn't even in this fight. She probably has no idea that it happened! She might not have even noticed the more active version of me. And it doesn't matter if she did or not.

I spent an hour and a half of major freak-out over something easily resolved in a minute. Wow.

[MaybeSo]

This was amazing. I took something that had some really huge parts I couldn't handle... .and shoved those aside, and made it into a small thing. And made it about making my choices, and doing what I wanted. The HUGE fight was me against my old habits.

My wife wasn't even in this fight. She probably has no idea that it happened! She might not have even noticed the more active version of me. And it doesn't matter if she did or not.

I spent an hour and a half of major freak-out over something easily resolved in a minute. Wow.

Wow is right.

First off, congratulations.  

Sometimes I seriously wonder if the Universe provided me with my partner for the sole purpose of learning to do exactly what you described, because somewhere as a kid, I was so busy anxiously managing fragile adults that I completely missed the memo that I had a right and a responsibility to (gently but firmly and w/out fanfare or explanations) attend to my own emotional needs and my own well being.  (And to let others do the same w/out interference)

 

[Grey Kitty]

First off, congratulations.  

Thank you!

Sometimes I seriously wonder if the Universe provided me with my partner for the sole purpose of learning to do exactly what you described, because somewhere as a kid, I was so busy anxiously managing fragile adults that I completely missed the memo that I had a right and a responsibility to (gently but firmly and w/out fanfare or explanations) attend to my own emotional needs and my own well being.  (And to let others do the same w/out interference)

Yeah, I know the feeling. We do somehow end up absolutely stuck facing this sort of stuff. I can't decide whether it is a 'gift' from the Universe... .or some emotional equivalent of the laws of physics that ensure we will create this sort of thing we need out of the people we have available to do it with.

Either way we find ourselves in that 'perfect' situation, and when we are ready for the growth, we understand exactly how it is 'perfect' for us.

:'( I'm still hoping that my wife is finding her 'perfect' situation in me in a way that we can go forth together from this. I'm afraid she won't.

I'm feeling pretty tender and open toward her right now. I've got a personal business conversation with her soon, when she calls me back. I'm not feeling that energy of fiery certainty that I cannot take her back while she's cheating.

If our conversation goes into stuff about cheating, I know I will need to end it for today. Even without that fire, I know that there will be a simmering stew of hurt and resentment starting to bubble up in me, and a future of conflict between us. And I'm pretty sure that fire will be back whether I want it or not. I've already set those boundaries to protect myself. I'll do it. Perhaps not quite as quickly as I will wish after I've ended the conversation, but I will.

Still, I don't want that wound re-opened today. Sigh.

I probably should stay away from all r/s issues other than the business ones--dividing up an initial chunk of our joint money so we each have something to live on for a while w/o involving the other. (I think I wrote a couple draft emails around this in this thread, but I never sent them.) I'm pretty sure she will agree that this is a good idea.

[MissyM]

I probably should stay away from all r/s issues other than the business ones--dividing up an initial chunk of our joint money so we each have something to live on for a while w/o involving the other. (I think I wrote a couple draft emails around this in this thread, but I never sent them.) I'm pretty sure she will agree that this is a good idea.

Very wise idea.  When we slow down, it is amazing what our wise minds can come up with.

My definition of 'recovered' was that her internal self-hatred finally went away. And stopped driving her to attempt to abuse me as a way of coping with it. The abusive traits always were worse when she was depressed, and after the 'recovery' last year, she was as depressed as I've ever seen her, plus coping with terrible anxiety. (Her lover mentioned above died suddenly a year ago!) ... .and didn't lash out at me then. In fact, she's not been verbally abusive to me while she's been cheating. I've not been abusive to her... .but I've also open with my hurt and anger.

Hmm, I do kind of challenge that her self hatred went away.  It sounds like she turned it inward and then is using other people to try and make herself feel better about herself.  She just stopped being abusive to you in other ways.  I believe cheating on one's spouse is a form of abuse.

Sometimes I seriously wonder if the Universe provided me with my partner for the sole purpose of learning to do exactly what you described, because somewhere as a kid, I was so busy anxiously managing fragile adults that I completely missed the memo that I had a right and a responsibility to (gently but firmly and w/out fanfare or explanations) attend to my own emotional needs and my own well being.  (And to let others do the same w/out interference)

Boy, do I identify with that!  It has taken dealing with my dBPDh for me to really delve into some aspects of my childhood and how they have shaped me, and then learning to behave and respond differently.  I had a very fragile mother and learned to take care of her needs over my own.

[Grey Kitty]

Hmm, I do kind of challenge that her self hatred went away.  It sounds like she turned it inward and then is using other people to try and make herself feel better about herself.  She just stopped being abusive to you in other ways.  I believe cheating on one's spouse is a form of abuse.

I'm not going to get in a fight with anybody about what is going on in my wife's head 

She did tell me that she let the self-hatred go and was able to love herself. I DID see the change in her at that time, and it was significant. Looking at her current behavior, I figure that either this shift was less complete than I thought, or shifted part-way back.

Whatever that shift was... .it sure didn't feel like going from painting me black to painting me white.

I can make noises about how cheating isn't quite the same as direct abuse. They are technicalities, and you are completely right at the deeper level. The significant difference is in what kind of boundary enforcement actions I can take against it.

I probably should stay away from all r/s issues other than the business ones--dividing up an initial chunk of our joint money so we each have something to live on for a while w/o involving the other. (I think I wrote a couple draft emails around this in this thread, but I never sent them.) I'm pretty sure she will agree that this is a good idea.

Very wise idea.  When we slow down, it is amazing what our wise minds can come up with. [/quote]
The call went pretty well. We got through the personal business cleanly.

I didn't manage to stay away from relationship talk. It was tough, but not full of conflict. Mainly because we avoided the one area we have conflict over, though.

I did discover she had some thoughts about being on a 'break' from our r/s. I spoke to not feeling like I could do that for long. (days or weeks, not months). Although I might be able to live apart for months. (Actually I expect to for a few months, with possible visits at most.)

The part that is sucking my energy tonight is that if I measure by her actions, she wants the benefits of our long r/s and friendship... .without the kind of commitment I need in it. And the only way I can get out of this is to step back completely, likely permanently. I'll end up reducing my interactions with her to personal business and unwinding our joint stuff.  :'(

[Grey Kitty]

Been thinking more about that... .while meditating, I started rehearsing a conversation or writing a draft email in my head. This is a draft next email I'm not sure if I'll send or not... .

I know I'll give it a little time. I want to let some of the changes (separate money in individual accounts, etc.) settle in for a a few days first, at a minimum.



Dear Wife,

We have been very very close in so many ways for our marriage. Some of it was joyful and fantastic. Some of it was being enmeshed, and caused us both a lot of pain.

In the last month, I've moved away from you, both physically and emotionally. I've stepped back from the things I want in our marriage and the things I don't want in our marriage together.

The enmeshed part--I'm done with that. It won't be easy. My path forward will involve some stumbling, some clumsy flailing around which may smack you, two steps forward, one step back. As I go along, the way will become clearer and my step will become surer.

I expect you will want the same, and do the same. I think we will agree on these steps. I expect your choice and my choice of which step is a critical priority will differ. I don't expect significant conflicts with you over it. I do expect it to be uncomfortable for both of us to adjust to.

I'm clear where I'm going with that.

Then there is all the good things with being close to you. I don't want to give that up.

We keep reaching back for it and having these difficult but intimate conversations. After it is done, my heart sinks. I'm way back here at a distance. I don't have that closeness to you today that I had.

I'm way over here, half-way gone from you. In limbo. I've spent years in this sort of limbo, and I know how much it cost me. I won't live here. I won't even stay here long.

So pretty soon I will be taking steps away from this middle-ground limbo.

I can take steps back toward you. If I'm going to do that, I need you to take steps back toward me, and I've been clear about what they are.

I can take steps away from you. I'm reluctant to take the next step, as I fear I will never turn around once I do.

I can't 'take a break' from being married to you. I can either work on our marriage, or work on ending our marriage.

I've been clear, and I've told you what I need from you to reconcile. I cannot change what I need there. I do not want you to be the only one making hard choices to make our marriage work again. I do not recall you asking me for anything specific other than giving in on what I need.

I am willing to make tough choices and do hard things to change. I am not just willing, but nearly insistent that we re-negotiate how we live our lives together. As far as that goes, everything is on the table.

I need to tell you now that our marriage is rapidly running out of time.

Love,

Grey

[Grey Kitty]

Glad I wrote the letter. The feelings in it are right. I think I'll wait and try to do this one in person, instead. I'll have time to let the feelings settle in more.

We both migrate around a lot. Here's the situation for the next couple weeks: My sister lives in the same town as my wife's brother. She's flying in Friday, and helping her brother with some relatively minor surgery next Monday. She wants to stick around for a few days after, so will probably do Thanksgiving with her brother. (I don't know... .and don't know where she's going next after that either.)

It is a loong 1-day drive for me, or an easier 2-day drive, and I've got a old friend partway there who has a guest room available to me, I may stop both ways. I'll rent a car for a week, and spend most of it up there. If nothing else, I could use a hug from a real-live person, which isn't really available to me here. It will be good to spend a few days with my sister and her family.

Of course, I don't know if my wife will even see me. I doubt she's expecting this, but it isn't very out of character for me. (Well, except that I'm making the plans and choices on my own without her involvement!) I'm going to let her know sometime soon, probably before she flys, or at least immediately after.

I think it will be the right time for me to give her a last chance to work things out with me. I know I need to go forward, either toward her or away from her. I feel better about doing it in person. I don't think it will be too late for me.

[vortex of confusion]

Glad I wrote the letter. The feelings in it are right. I think I'll wait and try to do this one in person, instead. I'll have time to let the feelings settle in more.

I agree that those sentiments would be best delivered in person.

[Grey Kitty]

And another strange morning. A cold one, I'm huddled under blankets. I wake up just a little before my alarm goes off.

I realize I just had a dream where I was at a some sort of small party with my wife, and she decided to have sex with a mutual friend of ours (incidentally one I think she's highly unlikely to have any interest like that in)... .and the last part I remember is getting a bit weepy and starting to wander around, thinking about banging my head on a wall, and thinking about talking to one of the friends at the party in my distress. (In my dream, I knew what crowd of friends it was, but remember not thinking of them as individual people... .so I didn't know who I would talk to.)

I don't normally wake up with vaguely coherent memories from dreams, and this one wasn't VIVID, but at least stuck this long.

And I'd heard the text message sound last night, after I was in bed... .

Wife: "There's something I would like to tell you. Are you still up? If so, call me. Please. Thank you."

Sometimes, life is ambiguous... .other times it is kinda opaque. I guess I'll learn more when we talk.

[sweetheart]

Grey Kitty,

For something as important as possibly the end of your marriage, for me seeing, being with and talking to your wife in person is absolutely the right way forward now.

Working through all the points, nuances and issues that have occurred for you from the start of all this is always right for here.

It seems as though the dream may hold some very significant feelings for you around the 'open' marriage that you and your wife had. It is not my place to offer my interpretations about your dream, I hope you are able to spend some time with it. For me dreams reflect blocked parts of our unconscious selves that stay with us because they are important.

That you have so honestly journaled your emotional processes through all of this across all the boards has been a very humbling experience for me to be part of. 

[Grey Kitty]

I've never been one to believe my dreams have Meaning, what with capitol letters and all. I can sometimes guess where my subconscious pulled some of the things from. Other times not so much.

When I remember them, like this, the significance I find is in the feelings they bring up.

In this case... .I've been thinking about my side of the conflict over my wife's cheating. Seeing some areas where I'm not doing everything right. Seeing where I am being inflexible. And yes, there is room for me to work on some of that.

Despite this... .my feelings about this cheating aren't going to go away. My wife probably will try to weasel around and look for a way to reconcile with me that doesn't involve giving up everything with this guy completely. I cannot live that way. Unless I check out from my feelings again, and I'm not willing to give that up.

Looking at myself, I also see the ways I'm TRYING so hard to find a way to reconcile with my wife, on her terms. I just keep looking for it. So far her actions have been clear. She isn't doing it on my terms (stop cheating!) I'm afraid of losing 20+ years of partnership and shared lives, a lot of shared friends, contact with her family, and a bit more financial security.

I am cutting my requirements down to the absolute bare minimum. I've realized that if she ACTs to cut contact with this guy, no strings attached, and says that she doesn't want to cheat on me again, that is enough.

I can accept that she may find herself unable to stop and ask for my consent before things start next time. If she can acknowledge this, and state that she is is working on it, that is enough. (I may have to leave if she fails again, but I'm willing to risk it)

I am open to re-negotiation of what we can do without consent from each other, what our marriage and commitment to each other really means. Not sure what I can offer, but I can have the conversation. I can only do this from a place of trust, not the place of letting her get away with cheating.

I don't want to toss offers like these to her. It may not be what she wants. It may not be enough. And it feels like chasing her and begging her.

If I'm going to take a step back toward her, I need her to take a step back toward me. The only ones that matter to me are the ones that make something right about violation when she stepped out.

[patientandclear]

GK--it makes total sense that you are scared to lose the shared life you have had with your wife. And I know very well that being scared to lose it can put a lot of pressure on us to compromise core values. I see that you're trying hard to see the difference between unnecessary defensiveness, which you think maybe you can reconsider, and shifting your boundaries around core values in order to prevent loss of the r/ship. The line there can be mighty blurry. I still go back and wonder whether the boundaries I drew that resulted in the end of our r/ship were ones I was willing to lose it for (each time, BTW, I conclude that they were. But I know how it feels to question that).

I'm wondering: when you say you might be OK if she gets involved with this guy again if she asks for your consent first: what is consent if you don't really have the free choice to not give it without losing the r/ship? I'm worries you would never feel you could say no. Then consent is a formality along the lines of "I really love you GK and I know this is going to hurt you but I'm doing it anyway ... .OK?"

She seems to be committed to resisting your attempts to control her with any conditions. You are committed to her showing you that she cares enough about you to step toward you, showing that you are the priority.

That's a fundamental contradiction right there.

Did you talk with her about whatever she texted about?

[Grey Kitty]

I'm wondering: when you say you might be OK if she gets involved with this guy again if she asks for your consent first: what is consent if you don't really have the free choice to not give it without losing the r/ship? I'm worries you would never feel you could say no. Then consent is a formality along the lines of "I really love you GK and I know this is going to hurt you but I'm doing it anyway ... .OK?"

Nope. I'm not OK with that, and I know it.

I meant that I could consider a r/s where neither of us have to ask for consent first.

If she uses it to get back with this guy, I'm gone!

And no, haven't had the conversation yet. I replied, but she's busy with her day now.

[KateCat]

I wonder if your dreaming mind isn't presenting you with the fundamental elements of your choice in a clearer way than your waking mind at this time.

[ziniztar]

I always dream a lot, and quite strange too.

The thing is, there is no logic in the dream plot.

What I've always felt useful is how I feel about the dream, mostly the feelings I had in the dream, right after I wake up.

For instance, I had a dream where I was mighty angry and screaming out everything I hated about (and to) dBPDxbf. Waking up with this sense of relief, first felt really good. And then guilt hit me. I usually try to stay in the dream emotion as long as i can to explore it a little.

Or, I had a dream about dating someone else, it actually happened last night. I really liked it, I was in bed with a guy I was supposed to meet through a dating app, and he was snuggeling up to me  .

Usually I wake up feeling the same kind of emotion as during the dream. I've noticed these are usally emotions I don't allow myself to feel during the day. The irrational storyline that actually led to that emotion doesn't mean squat to me.

[Grey Kitty]

And I finally did talk to my wife.

I'm noticing how much effort I am putting into my interactions with her. It is soo easy to fall back into patterns where I let her make all the decisions.

So I spend half an hour thinking about writing a 9-word text in response to a 20-word one.

And after she finally had a chance to call me, I figured out what it was about.

She was sharing that she was excited about her new wardrobe... .which was now all black, so everything matches, except for lots of colorful accessories.

And excited about this because it meant she could travel easily and more lightly, and wants to go all sorts of places like this.

I was able to express genuine excitement and enthusiasm for her joy in making new choices.

She noticed it as a change, and even commented on it.

It shouldn't be a big thing, but it may be. For my wife, the reason to leave me is that I don't do this... .and that I'm not letting her do things like this cheating. She wraps those two up together, and I don't.

I've showed her that I'm changing on one of those things. I won't change the other. I don't wrap them up together.

I'm glad I was able to do this today, before we see each other next week.

I'm amazed at how easy and natural my enthusiasm for her joys was.



I'm still feeling wiped out this evening. I think I'm starting to lose hope for my wife to get it, even when I talk to her face-to-face and openly.

Only allowing myself another week or so in limbo.  :'(

[Haye]

I only can say i'm so sorry for everything you are going through. I'm sad and devastated your wife doesn't seem to understand how valuable you are as a person. I wish you lot of strenght to go through all you are going through now.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been locked. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are encouraged to start a new thread to continue the conversation... .Thanks for understanding