Am I being controlling?

[Grey Kitty]

I honestly don't know if I'm being controlling or not. I acknowledge less than perfect mental health... .I just don't think being controlling is in my personal list of top 10 problems!

I can't even come up with a good working definition of controlling behavior right now.

I *know* my wife has accused me of being controlling many times, often enough that it is slightly triggering to me still. I also know that in many if not all of those cases, she is either projecting onto me, or using the accusation as an attempt to control me. I can't be certain it was always all about her though.

Anybody got any ideas how to measure it? Define it? How it feels when you are acting controlling?

[fromheeltoheal]

I've been called controlling, or more accurately a control freak, and there's a couple things going on around that.  First, there's a difference between leading and controlling, and I'm always one to take the lead in things, because no one else will usually, although if someone else wants to lead I usually let them if they show good leadership ability.  And trying to control by masquerading as a 'leader' to stroke one's ego is not good leadership; good leaders have willing followers.

And then the other piece is I honestly don't think I try to control anyone, but I definitely do not want to be controlled; that's the focus, avoid being controlled, not control.  It would be nice if humans could play nice and coexist, but any interaction includes dominance and submission it seems, and the way around it is to find a common goal, nothing better than a common goal to inspire people to cooperate.

[Moselle]

Grey Kitty. I get the same regular feedback from my BPD/NPD wife.

Do you get "controlling" feedback from other sources outside the relationship with your wife? It's always best to calibrate feedback with other references.  Especially if it's from an emotionally immature source prone to projection.

I think in BPD relationships we find ourselves pulled into roles we're not necessarily comfortable with. This is because to prevent the punishments, we adapt and become distorted versions of ourselves just to please the unpleasable pwBPD.

Best we just stop walking on eggshells and live our life the way we want to live it. Controlling or not.

Also controlling is not bad in itself.  Think controlling a nuclear reaction. Controlling the spending in a company or family.  Controlling the borders of a country.  

All necessary,  all good forms of control. Otherwise we fall into chaos and disorder.

You might consider the role of influence versus control. Sometimes influence can be more powerful in terms of outcomes that we want.  It brings us into a realm of our capability to influence an outcome rather than control it. It's respectful because it gives someone their agency to choose, but they frequently choose the alternative we present because it makes sense and we have persuaded them.

[Grey Kitty]

Moselle, I'm totally not buying it from my wife.

I did get some questions about it when we were in couples T a few years back from the T. Don't quite remember how that one went, actually... .just that the issue came up.

I'm still looking for some kind of yardstick to use to try and measure myself, and figure out what it would mean or feel like if I was being controlling.

[enlighten me]

What you have to rememver is your dealing with someones distorted perception. You may not have done anything controlling but remember a neutral reaction can be seen as a negative so any suggestiins that have been met with neutrality will be seen as negative so may be seen as dimissing their ideas meaning you are being controlling.

[vortex of confusion]

I am not sure if I have any answers or suggestions but would like to follow this thread as I have had the same question.

I feel like I fall into a trap where he can't or won't make decisions so I do it. At the end of the day, I make most of the decisions around the house. I buy him clothes. I try to help him get along better with the kids. I am the one that tries to point out areas of improvement. All the while, he sits back and acts like a whipped puppy. I feel like I am controlling because I do so much. I try really hard to NOT be controlling but it sure as heck feels like I am. I would love to see if somebody can offer a measuring stick for such things. I already feel like I am controlling things but then I have people tell me, "You just need to take control." It is confusing for sure.

So glad you brought up this topic!

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks, VOC!

You know one about the splinter in your neighbor's eye and the timber in your own? I can at least see some things about your version of this, even if I don't have much clarity for myself yet 

I feel like I fall into a trap where he can't or won't make decisions so I do it. At the end of the day, I make most of the decisions around the house.

I believe you that he can't or won't make decisions. However, as the guy who couldn't/wouldn't/didn't make decisions in my own marriage, I'll speak up and say that you ARE NOT helping him when you do it.

First figure out which are your decisions and make them. (Buy your own clothes, for example)

Second, figure out which are joint responsibility decisions. Don't let his inaction harm you on those. (Buy your kids clothes if they need new clothes; Don't let the house burn down; Keep your kitchen clean to at least a minimum level of sanitation you find acceptable; etc.)

Third, figure out which are his decisions. DROP THOSE.

I buy him clothes.

Stop it. If he can't dress himself, let him deal with the consequences of leaving the house naked. Not your problem.

I try to help him get along better with the kids.

Again, not your problem. Let him figure it out himself. Or at least wait for him to ask you for help!

I am the one that tries to point out areas of improvement. All the while, he sits back and acts like a whipped puppy.

I've been accused of whipped puppy behavior myself. I was living up to the accusation at the time.

My question: Has your action of pointing out areas of improvement led to any actual improvement?

If not, stop yourself from doing this too!

I feel like I am controlling because I do so much.

If you feel like you are doing too much... .that means resentment is building... .time to stop doing some of it! Especially things that don't help you or your r/s, like the ones I listed above

waverider said something in another thread that inspired me to start this one:

I have seen that in a lot of RS's being the "control freak" is not always about wanting control it is about avoiding being controlled, or a fear of not being in control. This puts them in charge without [being] naturally comfortable with it.

Does this sound like you?

I try really hard to NOT be controlling but it sure as heck feels like I am. I would love to see if somebody can offer a measuring stick for such things. I already feel like I am controlling things but then I have people tell me, "You just need to take control." It is confusing for sure.

I'm still looking for the measuring stick myself.

I'm not sure if all the things I'm pointing out for you are examples of being controlling or not... .I am pretty sure that they are examples of things you are doing that don't work well.

[sweetheart]

Hello Grey Kitty,

I have followed all your posts since your wife was unfaithful to you and from what I have read I cannot make out any issues of control in how you have processed your feelings and in your actions toward your wife. You come across as self-aware, articulate and insightful.

Your posts and responses to others are measured and thought provoking, and still manage to be supportive and kind.

In my marriage with my h I too have questioned whether I am controlling, as I have been accused of this many times over the years. When I explored this accusation because I am always open to the possibility that there are aspects of myself I am not in tune with, what I found is that I am organised, careful and ordered. Living with or sharing our lives with a person who's internal process is so often in chaos which is then externalised and projected out to us, creates for me more of a need to live a life that is more measured and meaningful.

What I wondered when I read your post is what makes you ask this ?

[Grey Kitty]

What I wondered when I read your post is what makes you ask this ?

The accusations by my wife that I was controlling were things that put me in the FOG, so to speak, and are still somewhat triggering to me. I'm looking to examine this more deeply for myself, and come to peace with it... .one of two ways, either:

• I do have some controlling tendencies... .which I want to find and address.



• I need to become grounded in my understanding of my own behavior, so I am not readily triggered or thrown off by this sort of accusations.

[sweetheart]

Would you be able to outline the areas that your wife felt that you were controlling in and use this as a starting point ?

[Pingo]

This is a very interesting question.  I think for us who have difficulty defining boundaries we confuse where the line is between having boundaries (our value system) and being controlling.  What is that measuring stick?  Maybe when we project our values onto someone else and have expectations of them fitting into our value system?  An example is my daughter, 20. I unknowingly had expectatons that she would live by my value system.  Then at 16, she became rebellious, started doing drugs, quit school... .I had lost 'control' of her.  Things were bad for a few yrs but have mellowed out now.  What helped me is letting go of the idea that she should live by my value system. I had to respect that she was her own person with her own values.  And because I had to let go of expectations, it has allowed her to discover who she wants to be as her own separate person.  She has also learned she is accountable for her own life.

I have always been sensitive to becoming 'controlling' as my mom is about the most controlling person I know and I did NOT want to become her.  This has led me to not have boundaries in relationships and allowed men to walk all over me.  These men have sensed that being labelled 'controlling' is a trigger for me and they have taken full advantage of this.  They happily allow me to make all the tough decisions, be the responsible one (I can totally relate to Vortex), pay for everything, hold down a full time job, do all the work in the r/s (the caretaker, the enabler) as it fit their idea of being entitled, the center of the r/s. But if I balked at being under their thumb, possessed by them, abused by them then I was labelled 'controlling' and it was turned against me.

[Caredverymuch]

I've been called controlling, or more accurately a control freak, and there's a couple things going on around that.  First, there's a difference between leading and controlling, and I'm always one to take the lead in things, because no one else will usually, although if someone else wants to lead I usually let them if they show good leadership ability.  And trying to control by masquerading as a 'leader' to stroke one's ego is not good leadership; good leaders have willing followers.

And then the other piece is I honestly don't think I try to control anyone, but I definitely do not want to be controlled; that's the focus, avoid being controlled, not control.  It would be nice if humans could play nice and coexist, but any interaction includes dominance and submission it seems, and the way around it is to find a common goal, nothing better than a common goal to inspire people to cooperate.

Well put.  Actions that include dominance and submission is controlling behavior. This type of control is based on deep fear, although it appears the contrary.

Taking the lead is not.

[Moselle]

As I read all these responses, I find myself relating to them very closely. I think it's time to really be patient on ourselves. We have lived for an extended period in a delusional world. A world created by someone with a serious mental disorder.  Are we going to be controlling at times. Yes of course. Can we leave a pwBPD to reign free unfettered. "No" we cannot. It's irresponsible. So we do have to control to some degree. Will they like it? Absoluty not. Should we stop it? If its not disordered control, I think mostly not?

[fromheeltoheal]

I've been called controlling, or more accurately a control freak, and there's a couple things going on around that.  First, there's a difference between leading and controlling, and I'm always one to take the lead in things, because no one else will usually, although if someone else wants to lead I usually let them if they show good leadership ability.  And trying to control by masquerading as a 'leader' to stroke one's ego is not good leadership; good leaders have willing followers.

And then the other piece is I honestly don't think I try to control anyone, but I definitely do not want to be controlled; that's the focus, avoid being controlled, not control.  It would be nice if humans could play nice and coexist, but any interaction includes dominance and submission it seems, and the way around it is to find a common goal, nothing better than a common goal to inspire people to cooperate.

Well put.  Actions that include dominance and submission is controlling behavior. This type of control is based on deep fear, although it appears the contrary.

Taking the lead is not.

Thanks Cared.  Reading this thread I feel a little different, since it seems folks are still in relationships with borderlines; guess we all converge here on the Inventory board, although staying in a relationship with my ex was definitely not an option.

But anyway, to me there's control in a relationship with a borderline, and control in the larger world, two different things.  When I think of my ex and borderlines in general, I think of 3 year olds.  3 year olds want discipline and direction badly, and on the other hand they will continually test it to see how far they can push it, as their ego develops.  The run away from mommy and hide, and then get scared because they can't see mommy and go running back, is exactly what a borderline does with push/pull later in life.  And if they're scared and mommy tells them what to do, saves them from the scary monster in the closet at night by turning on the light and opening the closet door to prove there's nothing there for example, mommy is the power in control that has saved the day, or night, and made things better, security.  But when mommy says go to bed and the cartoon is only half over, mommy's a controlling jerk and hated.  Until the monster shows up again.  At her core that was my ex's world, but coming out of an adult body parroting caustic sht she heard somewhere else, it seemed like something else for a while.  Today I'll decide for myself if I'm being controlling or not, thank you.

[vortex of confusion]

I believe you that he can't or won't make decisions. However, as the guy who couldn't/wouldn't/didn't make decisions in my own marriage, I'll speak up and say that you ARE NOT helping him when you do it.

Thanks for the input! It is amazing how easy it is to see things when somebody else points them out.

First figure out which are your decisions and make them. (Buy your own clothes, for example)

I have come a long way in this regard. In February, I took on another part time job and got my own bank account. I use part of that money for bills and groceries but it also allows me to buy clothes for me and the kids without feeling like I am taking money from the joint account. There is a thrift store that I love to go to where everything is a dollar on certain days.   I love going there and getting stuff for me and the kids and even him. Before getting my job, I never felt like I could do that without taking money from the family.

Second, figure out which are joint responsibility decisions. Don't let his inaction harm you on those. (Buy your kids clothes if they need new clothes; Don't let the house burn down; Keep your kitchen clean to at least a minimum level of sanitation you find acceptable; etc.)

That one is a little more tough because there are times when his inaction becomes very difficult. I already try to keep the house to at least a minimum level of sanitation. With 4 kids, it isn't always easy. The hardest part is not letting those things get to me. It is difficult. When the grass hasn't been mowed for a month and our house looks like a jungle, it gets to me especially when he will talk about it incessantly without actually doing anything. There have been times when I have told him to stop talking about it. I don't want to hear another word. I want to see him DO it. I keep up with all of the bills and stuff. I will ask him to pay a few of them from time to time. He has tried to get more involved but he seems to be

Third, figure out which are his decisions. DROP THOSE.

I have done a lot better about this/ I used to be his personal secretary and try to keep him on track. I have stopped doing that. He used to ask me stuff like, "Should I go to my meeting today?" Now when he asks that, I just tell him, "That is up to you."

Stop it. If he can't dress himself, let him deal with the consequences of leaving the house naked. Not your problem.

I don't set out to buy him clothes. It is usually a matter of me being at a thrift store and seeing something that I think will fit him and look good on him and picking it up. There have been times when I have seen something, picked it up, and then put it back. I don't want to get into the all or none. There has to be a happy balance. If he needs something specific, he usually goes and gets that himself.

I try to help him get along better with the kids.

Again, not your problem. Let him figure it out himself. Or at least wait for him to ask you for help!

I have been doing better but not as good as I would like because there are times when him and the kids are going at it and I step in and play referee. Is it controlling to want to keep things from escalating? In all honesty, I am afraid that if I don't step in, somebody might get hurt or something might get broken. My oldest daughter likes pushing his buttons. She has made a bit of a game out of it. If I step in and stop her, then things calm down a lot quicker. There are days when she absolutely hates her dad and he can't see it.

I've been accused of whipped puppy behavior myself. I was living up to the accusation at the time.

Now to turn it on you a little.   The whipped puppy behavior feels very controlling. If you have a history of doing that with your wife, I can see how she would interpret that as you being controlling.

It makes me feel like I can't say or do anything. Even the smallest things seem to trigger the whipped puppy act. For example, he started a pot of chili in the crock pot this morning. While he ran to the store, I finished it up. I noticed that he had inadvertently plugged in the waffle maker instead of the crock pot. I said something when he got home because the chili was still too cold to eat. I wasn't trying to accuse him of anything. I was very matter of factly stating that the chili wasn't warm enough to eat because he had plugged in the waffle maker instead of the crock pot. He said "Sorry" in a very defensive tone and then walked away like a whipped puppy. I wanted to JADE but didn't. It was an easy mistake to make since there were several appliances sitting on the counter with all of the plugs there together. Half the time, I don't even know what or how I say things that makes him so defensive.

My question: Has your action of pointing out areas of improvement led to any actual improvement?

No, it hasn't led to any improvement and I have tried to cut back and not say as much but it is very difficult. If I don't say anything at all, then that leaves him to believe that everything is okay and that there is nothing wrong. If I don't say anything at all, then I feel like I am expecting him to read my mind. I feel like my only option is to say nothing and simply live a parallel life with us as nothing more than two people that live in the same house. It is very difficult for me to wrap my mind around because I feel like I am backed into a corner.

If you feel like you are doing too much... .that means resentment is building... .time to stop doing some of it! Especially things that don't help you or your r/s, like the ones I listed above

Yes, resentment is building. I have stopped doing a lot in the last year. I have had people in real life tell me to stop doing so much and start bugging him to do more. I am not even sure what will or won't help our relationship. I have stopped caring so much about our relationship and am trying to focus on practical things. I don't feel like I am doing a good job at any of it. It is very difficult for me when I am doing the dishes and the laundry and juggling the bills and helping the kids and he is sitting on his computer playing his games. I know we have different values. I feel like he values his computer games and his reading above all else.

waverider said something in another thread that inspired me to start this one:

I have seen that in a lot of RS's being the "control freak" is not always about wanting control it is about avoiding being controlled, or a fear of not being in control. This puts them in charge without [being] naturally comfortable with it.

Does this sound like you?

Yes, it does sound like me to a bit. The only person that I want to control is myself. I have never been a control freak. I am a great leader when I am surrounded by people that are willing to work and put in the effort. I am also a great follower when I am following somebody that I trust. I actually don't like being in charge and I don't like it when I am around people that seem to make things about power and control. I want a partnership. If I am controlling, I think it is because I am trying to unwittingly force him to be a partner, an equal, rather than be a part of a play for power.

I'm not sure if all the things I'm pointing out for you are examples of being controlling or not... .I am pretty sure that they are examples of things you are doing that don't work well.

They definitely don't work but I can't figure out if I am being controlling or am just rescuing and protecting, which are actually subtle forms of control whether I want to admit it or not.

[Moselle]

When I think of my ex and borderlines in general, I think of 3 year olds.  3 year olds want discipline and direction badly, and on the other hand they will continually test it to see how far they can push it, as their ego develops.

This is so true. I find they might want discipine and direction badly, but immediately call it controlling,  because no need exceeds their need to be a victim.  This is the overarching theme in everything they do. And it's about the most abusive activity in any relationship.

[going places]

I honestly don't know if I'm being controlling or not. I acknowledge less than perfect mental health... .I just don't think being controlling is in my personal list of top 10 problems!

I can't even come up with a good working definition of controlling behavior right now.

I *know* my wife has accused me of being controlling many times, often enough that it is slightly triggering to me still. I also know that in many if not all of those cases, she is either projecting onto me, or using the accusation as an attempt to control me. I can't be certain it was always all about her though.

Anybody got any ideas how to measure it? Define it? How it feels when you are acting controlling?

Controlling.

Driving from the house to the grocery.

Wife drives to the grocery on X roads.

Husband drives to the same grocery on Y roads.

H and W go together.

H drives.

W says "why are we going this way"

H says "it's faster than the way you take"

W says "ok", but when she drives she drives X roads.

H "reminds" her every time she's headed for the grocery that HIS WAY is FASTER, etc. That she should drive the route he takes.

He is trying to control. If he mentions it more than once, it's not just a friendly suggestion.


Wife wants a new _______.

It's not in the budget, so it's a big no.

Wife talks about _____ she plans on how to afford _____ she points out all the good having a ______would be.

She talks about _____ all the time.

Finally, Husband draws the line and says "we cannot afford _____"

Wife's demeaner changes; she's pouting, sulking, quite.

Wife is distant, silent treatment is applied, or she's a hateful smarty pants.

Wife is trying to control by means of manipulation and guilt tripping.

Wife thinks if she can make Husband feel bad, she can change his mind and get _____.

Wife is trying to control the situation so that she gets the outcome, that satisfies her.


Controlling: Anytime one person manipulates a thing / people / situations that give them "their way" (eventually or immediately).

[Pingo]

Controlling: Anytime one person manipulates thing / people / situations that give them "their way" (eventually or immediately).

Yes!  I really like your comments going places, they are always spot on!  You made me think of something I learned, often times enablers or codependent types like to give 'friendly advise' thinking that it is okay and they have good intentions but unless the person asks for advise (and even if they do), this can be a form of control... .you are saying you know what's best for them.

[Grey Kitty]

VOC, thanks--this is helping me a lot! You and I have spent years locked in these control battles with our respective spice. The side I take is like your H's. The side you take is like my W's. It is so much clearer to see the other side from a 'safe' perspective in somebody else's marriage!

Second, figure out which are joint responsibility decisions. Don't let his inaction harm you on those. (Buy your kids clothes if they need new clothes; Don't let the house burn down; Keep your kitchen clean to at least a minimum level of sanitation you find acceptable; etc.)

That one is a little more tough because there are times when his inaction becomes very difficult. I already try to keep the house to at least a minimum level of sanitation. With 4 kids, it isn't always easy.

Agreed. It *IS* a tough balance to hit. You are getting better, and will continue to improve as you work on it.

I want to share a beautiful success I had with my wife: We decided to share hand-washing dishes, taking turns. Something we'd grumbled over for years. We found a WONDERFUL structural solution. I'm responsible for dishes on odd days of the month. She's responsible for dishes on even days of the month. Here's the fantastic part: If there are dishes left over at midnight... .any new dirty dishes remain with the same person, until they are all clean. (If one of us skips dishes for 48 hours, it is back to their next day of responsibility already!)

Now, if my wife doesn't do the dishes, I LOSE with a 'successful' nag. The longer she lets it slide, the less work I have to do!

And with that incentive to nag out of the way ... .for both of us ... .there was room for either of us to be generous and offer a dish dispensation if we felt like it. When we removed the control battle, there was room for kindness and generosity again. And we found quite a bit of it.

The big lesson is that situations where the responsibility isn't clear make for problems, and situations where the responsibility is completely clear make for solutions.

The hardest part is not letting those things get to me. It is difficult. When the grass hasn't been mowed for a month and our house looks like a jungle, it gets to me especially when he will talk about it incessantly without actually doing anything. There have been times when I have told him to stop talking about it. I don't want to hear another word. I want to see him DO it.

I think you are 50% there on the grass. Yes, tell him you don't want to hear about the lawn anymore. You feel too crappy hearing that. 

That feeling: "I want to see him DO it" that's an OK feeling too. But opening your mouth with it. Nuh-Uh. Nothing good comes from that!

If you can just let the lawn go... .accept that it may look like a jungle out there... .perhaps imagine yourself going on safari with the kids as a coping tool ... .to make it easier for yourself.

Or acknowledge how your core values set a minimum standard for the lawn... .and based on that, choose mow it when it gets to that level. Without a word to your H, before or after.

I keep up with all of the bills and stuff. I will ask him to pay a few of them from time to time. He has tried to get more involved

If you don't have a conflict over which account (joint or separate) you pay the bills from... .and if you don't mind the minor chore of writing checks much... .which sounds like the case... .

I strongly recommend that you don't bother asking him to pay some of them... .as a way to avoid bringing up the control battle conflict you keep falling into with him.

I try to help him get along better with the kids.

Again, not your problem. Let him figure it out himself. Or at least wait for him to ask you for help!

I have been doing better but not as good as I would like because there are times when him and the kids are going at it and I step in and play referee. Is it controlling to want to keep things from escalating? In all honesty, I am afraid that if I don't step in, somebody might get hurt or something might get broken. My oldest daughter likes pushing his buttons. She has made a bit of a game out of it. If I step in and stop her, then things calm down a lot quicker. There are days when she absolutely hates her dad and he can't see it.

Find a firm hard, sharp, clean boundary here for yourself with this one.

You are responsible for your daughter. You should protect her from situations that will escalate to the level where your H could hurt her (at least emotionally).

I'd suggest that you avoid like the plague getting in the middle of that conflict, mediating, trying to convince either your H or your D to stop bad behavior when they are in the middle of it.

I think the only referee move you should take is blowing the whistle, ending the game, and separating the two fighting parties. ($.02 from a non-parent )

This sort of action is very different from trying to convince your H to be a better parent, or improve his r/s with his kids. Step back there, 'cuz the control battle with your H comes back, and nothing good comes with it.

It is very difficult for me when I am doing the dishes and the laundry and juggling the bills and helping the kids and he is sitting on his computer playing his games. I know we have different values. I feel like he values his computer games and his reading above all else.

You may different values. I'm sure you have different ways of living up to your values. I've lived on the other side of this one. Here's my recommendation: Look for acceptance of the reality you are living in.  Accept that he's got to figure out his own way to get himself away from his computer, and will keep sitting at it until he does.

This is his battle, not yours. I personally have chosen (by my actions) to avoid difficult things in my life by checking out and doing crap on a computer or playing games. I recognize as part of a larger pattern that goes back to about at least as soon as I was old enough to read non-picture books, and chose to check out of uncomfortable parts of my life by reading. I shifted from books to computers within 10 years. I'm probably 40 years into it. I hit my first awareness of what I was doing, how I learned it, and that I don't want to continue this month!

I have known that what I was doing somehow wasn't 'right' for a long time. I remember swearing to myself that I would do "better" back when I was in high school. And I remember not living up to that. Lather, rinse and repeat for three or four decades. Now I see that simply wanting to stop a not-very-productive coping mechanism wasn't enough for me to successfully do it. I've got to accept that it took me decades and a crisis that is likely to end my marriage to bring the underlying problem and solution to my attention.

I figured it out while separated from my wife. So she didn't even know if I was playing games or doing something else, and couldn't say anything to me about it. And believe me, she's said a few things over the years. That would get my defenses up, and make it more about her trying to STOP me from doing it. A battle between me and my wife to control how I use my time.

I'm still not quite sure what shifted in me that let me notice and decide to make some changes. But I'm sure that not having an active control battle with my wife helped.

Please, please, please, PLEASE, don't EVER bring this up with him! It will just distract him from whatever it would have taken him to figure it out on his own. Use it to find some compassion for him, and allow him the space to find his own way, if it rings true for you. If he does realize something like this and decides to open up about this with you... .try to tread very lightly.

I'm still very tender in this area, like the first shoots of a plant at springtime. I'm excited about my changes, and want to share it. I'm very afraid of what my wife could do to this new tender growth if I let her close to it. It isn't easy to keep something this big from her, but I know I need to do it, at least for a while... .until the new growth gets better established and stronger.

I've been accused of whipped puppy behavior myself. I was living up to the accusation at the time.

Now to turn it on you a little.    The whipped puppy behavior feels very controlling. If you have a history of doing that with your wife, I can see how she would interpret that as you being controlling.

It makes me feel like I can't say or do anything. Even the smallest things seem to trigger the whipped puppy act. For example, he started a pot of chili in the crock pot this morning... .

OK. Busted. I don't think I ever pulled that crap of little things like a crock pot, at least 

Part of my struggle with this one is that I may really feel like a whipped puppy, and I DO have a right to those feelings. What I have to acknowledge is that acting those feelings out directly is a yucky dynamic, and if it works to control her, then I can't squirm out of calling it controlling behavior.

Acting that way is on me, and for me to change.

If my wife lets it control her, that's on her, and for her to change. (And if she DOES change this, I've lost my incentive to act that way! Why push a button if it isn't connected to anything?)

And when I look at the incidents where this kind of thing comes up b/t my wife and myself, I think the core issue is NOT the whipped puppy controlling aspect, although it does make things worse.

These issues come down to areas where she and I have different takes on what is "hers" what is "mine" and what is "ours". And those differing assumptions go unexamined. Often she tells me about something ... .thinking of it as her thing, and expecting/wanting me to be excited for her ... .and I see it as our thing or my thing, don't respond the way she wants ... .and feel that she doesn't care about my opinion or feelings.

Then the fight starts... .

There have been a bunch of these over the years... .Sometimes I've been on the 'wrong' side of that assumption. Sometimes she's been on the 'wrong' side of it. The current one may well be a case where we have different core values, and have different 'right' sides of it.

I don't think I've got my yardstick for controlling behavior figured out yet. Maybe it isn't important--I think I've got a measure of a control fight:

A control fight is one where two people do not agree about who has ownership or responsibility for something they are in conflict over.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, thanks--this is helping me a lot! You and I have spent years locked in these control battles with our respective spice. The side I take is like your H's. The side you take is like my W's. It is so much clearer to see the other side from a 'safe' perspective in somebody else's marriage!

Yes, so very true! Reading your posts is very helpful to me.

She's responsible for dishes on even days of the month.

Our agreement is that I do the dishes and load the dishwasher and he puts them away. Whenever he would do the dishes, they would come out dirty because he didn't really get the stuff off of the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher. This is not something new for him. Even his mother has said that he sucked at dishes as a kid. I don't understand it. I just accept it and ask that he put the dishes away after I wash them. The bigger problem is picking up after the kids. If I see that something needs picked up, I pick it up. He will walk right by it. I don't think those are things that can really be divided up that easily because I see it as basic picking up after yourself and the kids.

When we removed the control battle, there was room for kindness and generosity again. And we found quite a bit of it.

I try not to nag. That is something that is huge for me. I grew up with a nagging mother. I refuse to become a nag. I won't ask more than once or twice. The thing that I see is that he lacks the ability to be generous. The situation you describe is one where you and your partner have come to an agreement. I am in a situation where he will agree in words but not in deed. I continually feel like I try to remove the control battle by not saying things and taking care of things myself because I do not want to fight. I do not want to get in a tug of war over something stupid like dishes. If it is that important to me, then it makes sense for me to do it and take care of it. The problem is that I feel like nothing is that important to him. He can remember a battle that is scheduled in a game but he can't remember to put a load of laundry in the dryer. I tend to work on keeping up with laundry during the week and he is supposed to work on laundry on Sundays. With 6 people in the house, it isn't uncommon to have to do a load a day to stay on top of things.

The big lesson is that situations where the responsibility isn't clear make for problems, and situations where the responsibility is completely clear make for solutions.

Even situations where the responsibility is perfectly clear is a problem. There are a lot of things that I can overlook. One of his responsibilities that he can't keep up with is changing the cat boxes. He isn't here all day with kids. I am. He will let them go and the whole house will stink because he isn't on top of it. One time, I took care of it myself rather than bug him. He got mad at me and said that he was going to do it. So, now I am supposed to sit in a stinky a$$ house because he won't do it and he gets mad at me if I do it.

Or acknowledge how your core values set a minimum standard for the lawn... .and based on that, choose mow it when it gets to that level. Without a word to your H, before or after.

I have had to learn to let the lawn go. Last year, I would do the whole mow it myself thing without saying a word. He would get pi$$ed at me because he was going to do it. If I try to be generous and do things because he can't/won't/hasn't, he will get pi$$ed at me because he thinks that I think that he is incapable. He gets upset with me either way. I don't mow the lawn any more and I just deal with having a crappy looking yard.

I strongly recommend that you don't bother asking him to pay some of them... .as a way to avoid bringing up the control battle conflict you keep falling into with him.

I have absolutely no problems paying the bills and keeping up with them all. The issues stems from a time when he had no clue whether or not we had any money. He had not clue about anything. We got into some serious debt because he had no idea what was going on with our finances. He wasn't even keeping up with his own credit cards there for a while. The agreement for him to pay some of the bills is about him being aware of our financial situation. For me, it has nothing to do with control. It is about him wanting to know what is going on with our finances and telling me that he wants to help. I am not going to deny him that. To me, I feel like it would be very controlling for me to tell him not to worry about the finances because I am taking care of it all.

I'd suggest that you avoid like the plague getting in the middle of that conflict, mediating, trying to convince either your H or your D to stop bad behavior when they are in the middle of it.

Usually, I just yell "STOP" as loud as I can. It gets their attention. I will repeat stop until they both shut up. Afterwards, I will try to get my daughter aside and talk to her about pushing dad's buttons. Sometimes he wants to talk about it and sometimes he doesn't.

This sort of action is very different from trying to convince your H to be a better parent, or improve his r/s with his kids. Step back there, 'cuz the control battle with your H comes back, and nothing good comes with it.

That is part of the problem. I don't feel like I am trying to convince him to be anything. He says he wants to be a better parent. He says he wants to work on things. So, I give him information because I used to be a moderator on a parenting forum. I have done all sorts of research on the topic. It puts me in an awkward position. He says he wants information, I give him information, and now I am being controlling because I am giving him information?

Accept that he's got to figure out his own way to get himself away from his computer, and will keep sitting at it until he does.

So our kids get to sit around watching dad play computer games and ignoring them? I have given him so much space and so much time. How much more time should I give him? It used to be porn, now it is computer games. I feel like I am expected to spend a lifetime waiting around for him to figure things out. All the while, my needs and my desires are put on hold. I feel like I would be better off single because then I would be able to do it all without worrying about getting in trouble when I try to be kind or generous or helpful. It is a no win situation for me and I don't feel like it is me trying to control anything. I feel like it is me trying to set boundaries and live my own values.

This is his battle, not yours.

Yes, it is his battle. Is it realistic to expect somebody else to sit around and be ignored and watch their children be ignored without having some kind of feelings of rejection? If a person needs to be left alone to fight whatever it is they are fighting, that is fine but don't expect other people to wait around indefinitely. I feel like it is asking me to put my life on hold so he can do whatever he wants.

I've got to accept that it took me decades and a crisis that is likely to end my marriage to bring the underlying problem and solution to my attention.

I am going to say something that might be difficult to hear. I am not quite sure how to phrase it but I think does play into the question of "Am I being controlling?" This is about both of our situations. From what you have said, I am gathering that your wife has asked you to stop playing on the computer. It sounds like she has asked you repeatedly over the years yet you haven't done it. Now, the tables are turned and you are asking her to stop her affair. You are asking her to take your feelings into consideration. You are trying to set a boundary with her about it. Now, you are telling me that I should let my husband come to his own conclusions in his own time. What I would really like to do is set a boundary about the gaming because of how I feel about it. How is setting a boundary about cheating any different than setting a boundary about gaming? I feel like his checking out of the relationship to game/read/etc. is having a negative impact on our kids lives as well as our relationship. Is trying to set a boundary controlling or not?

I figured it out while separated from my wife. So she didn't even know if I was playing games or doing something else, and couldn't say anything to me about it. And believe me, she's said a few things over the years. That would get my defenses up, and make it more about her trying to STOP me from doing it. A battle between me and my wife to control how I use my time.

Why was she trying to stop you from doing it? She was trying to stop you from doing it because she wanted your attention. It is likely that she felt like you thought and acted like your games were more important than her. I am projecting a bit here because I think I can relate to what your wife might have been feeling. When a person continually checks out of the relationship due to uncomfortable circumstances, the other person feels lonely and rejected. The other person feels like she is not important to you at all. Yes, you may have been doing other things to show your love but all of that gets overshadowed because it feels like you are ignoring her and her need to connect with you. How do you feel about her not honoring your request to cut it off with the other guy? It is likely that she has felt very similar feelings about your refusal to step away from the computer. Again, that is me projecting based on my own situation. Now, I tend to have feelings and thoughts towards my husband like, "You have to be kidding me. You ignored me and hid in your porn, your computer, your books, your whatever and NOW you are making demands of me and are trying to demand that I do x,y, and z." That, in my mind, is the height of controlling. You get to do whatever you want for as long as you want and then when you get yourself together expect the other person to fall in line.

Please, please, please, PLEASE, don't EVER bring this up with him! It will just distract him from whatever it would have taken him to figure it out on his own. Use it to find some compassion for him, and allow him the space to find his own way, if it rings true for you. If he does realize something like this and decides to open up about this with you... .try to tread very lightly.

 Would it be possible to give yourself the same advice regarding what your wife is doing? I know that some people are going to read this and say "But computer games are different than outright cheating!" To that, I will ask, "Why are they different? They serve pretty much the same purpose. Both allow you to check out of the relationship so that you don't have to deal with the hard stuff. It is an escape. You are making something or someone else a priority.

Part of my struggle with this one is that I may really feel like a whipped puppy, and I DO have a right to those feelings. What I have to acknowledge is that acting those feelings out directly is a yucky dynamic, and if it works to control her, then I can't squirm out of calling it controlling behavior.

Acting that way is on me, and for me to change.

If my wife lets it control her, that's on her, and for her to change. (And if she DOES change this, I've lost my incentive to act that way! Why push a button if it isn't connected to anything?)

Yes, you have a right to those feelings. Everybody has a right to their own feelings. For me, it is kind of like the question of "Where does my freedom begin and yours end?" Ideally, both of you should be able to feel your feelings without worrying about repercussions. Stop for a second and think about this "If my wife let's it control her, that's on her, and for her to change." To me, that sounds like you are expecting your wife to change so that you lose the incentive to do it. If you were doing it because that is how you feel, then her reaction wouldn't matter. If you are doing it to get a reaction out of her, then that is the hallmark of being controlling.

And when I look at the incidents where this kind of thing comes up b/t my wife and myself, I think the core issue is NOT the whipped puppy controlling aspect, although it does make things worse.

No, the core issue isn't the core issue. For me, the core issue is the fact that I don't feel like I can say or do anything right. I am not looking for validation or a pat on the back. I would just like to feel comfortable in my own home. I want our home to feel safe. When people are doing things that are subtly manipulative or controlling, it doesn't feel safe for me or the kids. Emotional and physical safety are core issues. If my husband acting like a whipped puppy and stomping off pouting or otherwise acting like that contributes to us girls feeling like we can't communicate with him, then it becomes part of the core issues.

[talithacumi]

I think part of what needs to be recognized/examined here are the circumstances under which you find yourself being accused of being controlling in the first place.

It's a term that has a lot of very negative connotations - very emotionally loaded - and invariably, therefore, triggers a strong defensive reaction that maybe not intentionally, but clearly (as you yourself have noted, grey kitty) leaves you questioning - not the choices you've made - but, rather, the kind of person you are/why you would make those choices in the first place.

In my experience (and, of course, completely in retrospect!), I got called controlling only when I was already in conflict with my ex-upwBPD in some way - as a means of getting my attention, JADEing his own behavior/choices, gaslighting me, deflecting focus/responsibility away from himself, and otherwise "resolving" whatever problem "we" were having that he perceived, in the moment, as preventing him from feeling the way he needed/wanted to feel about whatever was going on.

I think people with healthy interpersonal boundaries don't perceive others as having the power to control them, or, more importantly, as having that power themselves.

Maybe looking at this question in a different way will help ... .

[MaybeSo]

think people with healthy interpersonal boundaries don't perceive others as having the power to control them, or, more importantly, as having that power themselves.

In my opinion, and in my learning curve…I have had to chew on the idea that, a huge part of any unhealthy r/s is usually two people doing anything to avoid taking full responsibility and control for their own lives/choices/state of being.  Because it’s hard to do and it can hurt, we avoid it.  Sometimes at a very high cost.

That goes both ways, we see it from both sides on this board all the time.

How many times do we hear…

My partner did xyz boundary violation and I can’t or won't do anything about it because he/she will be

angry or enraged

threaten divorce

pout or

give cold shoulder

scream etc etc etc

so we don’t take care of our own boundaries so the other person won’t have their natural response to the boundary.

That’s controlling another person.  That’s controlling the  natural outcome of a boundary so we don’t have to take care of or take control of ourselves and our own lives as a result of them being who they are, and us being who we are.  It’s controlling and in a way, quite dishonest. 

Staying with our integrity and our boundary, and allowing another person to have their response as a result of exercising a principled boundary….is stepping away from attempts to control others.

You take care of you. That’s taking control of yourself.  Inner directed.

The other is trying to control someone else. Outer directed.

That means taking full responsibility for the life choices we make (I’m with a person who screams at me a lot) and our responses to it (I walk away, I scream back, I take a break, I leave the relationship) including how well we do or do not take care of ourselves from day to day.  That is a person taking control of their own lives instead of trying to control another person’s behavior so we don’t have to feel our feelings or make hard decisions or take full responsibility for ourselves.

Not doing that, for fear of the result…is exercising external control to avoid at all cost the suffering that sometimes results when we are practicing internal control. (I am sad, scared, lonely).

Pointing to another person as the reason we are unhappy or unfulfilled, trying to change them etc…are attempts to externally control another person.

Not taking care of ourselves to avoid another person’s response…is an attempt at external control.  And not even very honest.

An attempt to control another person ….so we don’t have to feel our own feelings and take care of our own feelings and actions…sadness, anger, fear…loss of a relationship…etc. is controlling. 

[Pingo]

How many times do we hear…

My partner did xyz boundary violation and I can’t or won't do anything about it because he/she will be

angry or enraged

threaten divorce

pout or

give cold shoulder

scream etc etc etc

so we don’t take care of our own boundaries so the other person won’t have their natural response to the boundary.

That’s controlling another person.  That’s controlling the  natural outcome of a boundary so we don’t have to take care of or take control of ourselves and our own lives as a result of them being who they are, and us being who we are.  It’s controlling and in a way, quite dishonest. 

This is absolutely spot on and when we don't take care of ourselves we end up being resentful of the other person. This is what I struggle with probably more than anything in r/ss, my family, my life.  So much easier to blame the other person walking all over my boundaries than say I won't tolerate that for another minute! And have to take control of ourselves and tolerate their reactions and our uncomfortable feelings.

[SpringInMyStep]

I *know* my wife has accused me of being controlling many times, often enough that it is slightly triggering to me still. I also know that in many if not all of those cases, she is either projecting onto me, or using the accusation as an attempt to control me. I can't be certain it was always all about her though.

Anybody got any ideas how to measure it? Define it? How it feels when you are acting controlling?

Hi... .my ex accused me in email of being controlling too, but the odd thing was, she was projecting! She accused me of a whole list of offenses when in reality, those were the things SHE did to me!

I do think that along with fear of abandonment, BPDs also have a fear of being controlled. My wife used to say she didn't believe in monogamy because it felt too much like "ownership". Whatever.

[Grey Kitty]

I like all of what you said here, maybeso.

think people with healthy interpersonal boundaries don't perceive others as having the power to control them, or, more importantly, as having that power themselves.

In my opinion, and in my learning curve…I have had to chew on the idea that, a huge part of any unhealthy r/s is usually two people doing anything to avoid taking full responsibility and control for their own lives/choices/state of being.  Because it’s hard to do and it can hurt, we avoid it.  Sometimes at a very high cost.

You take care of you. That’s taking control of yourself.  Inner directed.

The other is trying to control someone else. Outer directed.

Exactly like the difference between making rules and boundary enforcement.

I think where I've been getting stuck on defining controlling behavior is that it isn't actually the behavior which makes it controlling.

It is the intent behind the behavior. The intent is to take your internal issue and find an external resolution to it.

What is even stickier is that this intent is very real, and it is exactly what matters in this case, even though the person who has that intent is (generally) not self-aware about this intent.

There is a logical, rational part of me that isn't particularly happy with needing to involve intent... .which is hard to read accurately in yourself, and much tougher (impossible?) to infer from the actions and statements of others!

(And this explains that as soon as my wife tells me that I'm being controlling, we're starting to slide down into a nasty pit and start a fight down there. At least one, if not both of us is trying to fix internal problems externally, and isn't aware of it... .and the other party doesn't think this 'fix' feels good to them!)

[MaybeSo]

I think the way we get clarity is to ask them to share more about what they experience as controlling. if you really encourage their honest explanation of what they are feeling, you start to get a picture.

is it control issues from past trauma?

specific things that mean control for her?

is it something you "get" and can understand?

do you feel it's something you can help her with or not at all?

no matter what, can you listen as she deeply shares her experience, w/out taking it personally and with the idea that this may or may not even have anything to do with you?

If we just argue about who is doing more controlling, projecting, blaming

Then there ARE contol issues. I don't want to hear your experience, and will do anything to avoid it.

Fights are about two people trying to be in control.

[Grey Kitty]

Then there ARE contol issues. I don't want to hear your experience, and will do anything to avoid it.

There's no getting off easy for me on this one, is there.

I'll admit that the most recent battle about this is my unwillingness to accept my wife's choice to cheat on me. We do have a polyamorous history, but if it wasn't done with my consent, it is cheating. She doesn't like that term, because cheating usually involves deception, and hiding that you are cheating. She was very clear that she was going to do this to me before she did it. Therefore she's not sure quite what term fits it, but acknowledges that that one is pretty close.

Anyhow, I've got a clear boundary--I won't reconcile with her unless she cuts contact with the guy. I may hope for other behavior... .but I'm trying to keep it in the realm of protecting myself, instead of demanding things of her, and doing pretty well by now.

However, I do realize that I'm completely unwilling to listen to her on why she had to do this, her 'side' of it. Boundary enforcement can be controlling when used to get what we want instead of to defend our values and protect ourselves. I'm afraid that my actions here are feeling a little fuzzier.

[MaybeSo]

There's no getting off easy for me on this one, is there.

I'll admit that the most recent battle about this is my unwillingness to accept my wife's choice to cheat on me. We do have a polyamorous history, but if it wasn't done with my consent, it is cheating. She doesn't like that term, because cheating usually involves deception, and hiding that you are cheating. She was very clear that she was going to do this to me before she did it. Therefore she's not sure quite what term fits it, but acknowledges that that one is pretty close.

Anyhow, I've got a clear boundary--I won't reconcile with her unless she cuts contact with the guy. I may hope for other behavior... .but I'm trying to keep it in the realm of protecting myself, instead of demanding things of her, and doing pretty well by now.

However, I do realize that I'm completely unwilling to listen to her on why she had to do this, her 'side' of it. Boundary enforcement can be controlling when used to get what we want instead of to defend our values and protect ourselves. I'm afraid that my actions here are feeling a little fuzzier.

In the study I am currently involved in, there are various definitions or signs of a person who is successfully differentiated.  (Differentiation is not the same as individuation.) Also, none of this is static, we can of course regress under tremendous stress.  But in general... .

One of the main abilities a differentiated person will exhibit, is the ability to listen and stay curious about another person’s reality without collapsing, especially in intimate settings.   If I understand this correctly, it means we can hear anything our partners need to say, without becoming reactive, without losing our sense of self, without agreeing with anything necessarily and without trying to change or argue with the person, either, but just sitting with it in a stance of curiosity and wanting to understand what their experience is.  Basically, maintaining your own psychic or emotional boundaries while being present with another person’s experience which may be completely different or even not in accordance with your values or beliefs or needs.  Not getting yourself mixed up…their experience is theirs,  you can maintain your own equilibrium regardless of their perspective or their felt experience. This includes not being hooked into their projections, either.  (we can all project). 

For a lot of people, anxiety most often gets in the way of this ability. It’s what gets me off course, this I know about  myself.  So, then, differentiation again means the person is developmentally able to manage their own interior feelings states, eg., such as anxiety, via self control, self soothing... .to be able to do this.  Rather than getting triggered and then trying to manage the internal state of anxiety by using external control, ’stop telling me something that makes me feel uncomfortable, stop having your experience.’  (Or all the myriad things we do as humans when we are feeling triggered, including our own projections onto the person who is sharing, our own fight/flight responses in all their glory etc.

This is separate from leaving the room if a person is screaming at us or attacking us etc.  I am only referring to the ability to listen to another person’s experience, this has nothing to do with accepting abuse, agreeing with another persons agenda out of fear , accepting abuse is not differentiation, it’s more enmeshment.

So, there is not unhealthy control being exhibited in refusing to continue a relationship with your wife if both of you cannot agree to basic issues of conduct related to trust.  That’s not external control, that’s you taking care of yourself based on your own value system.

Getting into a semantic argument about what is or is not ‘cheating’ could get into the realm of control and power struggle which distracts from the real issue at hand between the two of you.  You are having the experience of betrayal.  Whatever she wishes to call it, this isn’t working for you. Her choice is experienced by you as a betrayal. She may have a felt experience and perception that it is no different than being poly which you already agreed to. That’s her experience, but your’s is different.   For whatever reason, it was not okay with you that she be with this particular man, and she chose to do it anyway despite voicing your concerns.    A betrayal needs repair if a relationship is to continue.  Both of you would need to really hear each other for repair to be successful.

[Grey Kitty]

In the study I am currently involved in, there are various definitions or signs of a person who is successfully differentiated.  (Differentiation is not the same as individuation.) Also, none of this is static, we can of course regress under tremendous stress.

The difference between individuation and differentiation is something I don't understand. Since I'm working on at least one of them, perhaps I should know more!

One of the main abilities a differentiated person will exhibit, is the ability to listen and stay curious about another person’s reality without collapsing, especially in intimate settings.   If I understand this correctly, it means we can hear anything our partners need to say, without becoming reactive, without losing our sense of self, without agreeing with anything necessarily and without trying to change or argue with the person, either, but just sitting with it in a stance of curiosity and wanting to understand what their experience is.  Basically, maintaining your own psychic or emotional boundaries while being present with another person’s experience which may be completely different or even not in accordance with your values or beliefs or needs.  Not getting yourself mixed up…their experience is theirs,  you can maintain your own equilibrium regardless of their perspective or their felt experience. This includes not being hooked into their projections, either.  (we can all project). 

For a lot of people, anxiety most often gets in the way of this ability. It’s what gets me off course, this I know about  myself.  So, then, differentiation again means the person is developmentally able to manage their own interior feelings states, eg., such as anxiety, via self control, self soothing... .to be able to do this.  Rather than getting triggered and then trying to manage the internal state of anxiety by using external control, ’stop telling me something that makes me feel uncomfortable, stop having your experience.’  (Or all the myriad things we do as humans when we are feeling triggered, including our own projections onto the person who is sharing, our own fight/flight responses in all their glory etc.

Well, I'm working on my differentiation, however I am acknowledging that there are limits to my capacity for right now and I'm not willing to push myself to go beyond some of them. I'll be ready for more someday, and I'll most likely know I'm ready not too much after that.

I suspect it is something other than anxiety that gets in my way. My emotional journey today is one toward being with my difficult feelings rather than checking out and avoiding them. Or perhaps when I get farther into those feelings I will find the anxiety.

In the meantime, I will continue to step out of discussions in areas I'm sure to be triggered, to protect both myself and my wife from the fallout. I'm not going to worry about whether that is controlling or not.