Help me analyze this. Am I crazy?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I debated about whether or not to post here or on the staying board. Since I am trying to detach, I figured I would post here.

Here is what happened. A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned somebody that my husband had been talking to at one point. She is a lady from church that has kids and her husband is in prison. Anyway, she invited just my husband over for dinner. He told her a bunch of stuff about our relationship and got a bunch of sympathy from her. Since she is a mutual friend from church, her inviting just him over for dinner seemed a bit suspicious and out of line so I sent her a message asking her why she was inviting just him out to dinner. Of course, she told my husband that I busted her chops because she was talking to him.

Anyway, fast forward to now. A week or so ago, he said that he hadn't talked to her in a long time and had no interest in talking to her again because she is bad news. The day before yesterday, he tells me that he talked to her on FB and asked her about the parish since he hasn't been to church in a while. He said that she just filled him in on what had been going on with the new priest and said it was all innocent. I let it go.

Last night (the first time in forever), he wanted to be amorous. Something didn't seem right so I opened up his FB page (he leaves it logged in and says I can check his messages whenever I want) and there are more messages between the two of them and the final messages are her telling him to call her and him saying, "Now?"

It made me so damned mad and confused. To me, it sounded like he was fishing. I brought it up with him and he said that he wasn't fishing and that he just wanted to ask her about the church. I reminded him that he still has a lot of contacts within the church and then I asked him why he didn't contact any of them. He says that she just happened to be online and that he doesn't know the other people as well as he knows her. He said that I am making a mountain out of a molehill. Am I? Do I have a right to be angry, hurt, mad, confused?

I told him that I felt like he went fishing with her to see if he could get anything and that the only reason he was amorous with me is because he had talked to her earlier in the day. He didn't like that at all and came up with a bunch of crap about why I was wrong. He swears he isn't lying and seems so unbelievably sincere. Help me not get sucked in by his being so adamant!

[vortex of confusion]

I debated about whether or not to post here or on the staying board. Since I am trying to detach, I figured I would post here.

Here is what happened. A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned somebody that my husband had been talking to at one point. She is a lady from church that has kids and her husband is in prison. Anyway, she invited just my husband over for dinner. He told her a bunch of stuff about our relationship and got a bunch of sympathy from her. Since she is a mutual friend from church, her inviting just him over for dinner seemed a bit suspicious and out of line so I sent her a message asking her why she was inviting just him out to dinner. Of course, she told my husband that I busted her chops because she was talking to him.

Anyway, fast forward to now. A week or so ago, he said that he hadn't talked to her in a long time and had no interest in talking to her again because she is bad news. The day before yesterday, he tells me that he talked to her on FB and asked her about the parish since he hasn't been to church in a while. He said that she just filled him in on what had been going on with the new priest and said it was all innocent. I let it go.

Last night (the first time in forever), he wanted to be amorous. Something didn't seem right so I opened up his FB page (he leaves it logged in and says I can check his messages whenever I want) and there are more messages between the two of them and the final messages are her telling him to call her and him saying, "Now?"

It made me so damned mad and confused. To me, it sounded like he was fishing. I brought it up with him and he said that he wasn't fishing and that he just wanted to ask her about the church. I reminded him that he still has a lot of contacts within the church and then I asked him why he didn't contact any of them. He says that she just happened to be online and that he doesn't know the other people as well as he knows her. He said that I am making a mountain out of a molehill. Am I? Do I have a right to be angry, hurt, mad, confused?

I told him that I felt like he went fishing with her to see if he could get anything and that the only reason he was amorous with me is because he had talked to her earlier in the day. He didn't like that at all and came up with a bunch of crap about why I was wrong. He swears he isn't lying and seems so unbelievably sincere. Help me not get sucked in by his being so adamant!

[777Alex777]

Your instincts are correct.

[seeking balance]

He said that I am making a mountain out of a molehill. Am I?

not in my opinion

Do I have a right to be angry, hurt, mad, confused?

absolutely

The leaving board is about detaching and grief - you really are going to get better feedback from the staying or undecided.

From what you said, you set a boundary and he crossed it.  Not sure if this is a deal breaker for you or not - and I really don't know your story.

DEARMAN is the tool for confrontation and boundary work - the stayers are the experts at that 

YOUR FEELINGS ARE REAL AND YOU ARE ENTITLED TO THEM... .

Are you in T to work through your emotional state?

[Mutt]

Hi vortex of confusion,

What do your instincts tell you? You're story with him and her are real close to an emotional affair. It raises red flags. When you're sharing something with another person that's appropriate for your spouse to someone else, it's an emotional affair. It's not to say that he's not allowed to have friends with the opposite sex. He's sharing details about your marriage, we also don't know what's said between him and her. It sounds like he may be garnering sympathy. Watch this closely, this could be an EA. I'm not sure if your State is fault or not fault divorce. You could use this to your advantage later. Document, document, document. Keep in a safe place.

[vortex of confusion]

My instincts tell me that he was fishing. My instincts tell me that he found an innocent excuse to message her so he could test the waters so to speak. I asked him why there was a phone call involved and he said it was to get directions. That does not make sense to me at all, especially since a big church in a big area could easily be found on google maps. He rarely asks people for directions and tends to go straight to the computer for directions. And, the fact that she would invite him to call her and he would do it immediately seems really off.

He says that he hasn't shared any relationship details with her in over a year. He also claims that they haven't talked in a long time either. He says that he wanted to know about the church stuff, saw her online, and asked. I feel like I can communicate with him okay on this. My problem is that he is so convincing that I usually buy whatever crap he says and let it go. It is a pervasive pattern where I will ask him something, he will give an answer and then swear that it is the truth. There have been way too many instances where I have later found out that he was lying to me. He doesn't seem to understand why I don't trust him and why I cannot invest anything into the relationship. He even went so far as to say, "I let you look at all of the messages. If I was hiding anything, I would have deleted them." I brought up the fact that he called her, which is a nice way to cover any conversation that he doesn't want me to know about. I don't trust him any further than I can throw him because of all of the times that he has deceived me or outright lied to me.

I know seeking balance suggested posting on the staying forum. I sometimes feel like some of the techniques require me to cater to him without being able to speak my own truth. My goal for posting this here is to basically take ownership of how I feel without letting him suck me in and make me think I am crazy because I got upset because he went back on what he said. Actually, when I brought up the fact that he said he wasn't going to talk to her again, he said, "I didn't say I wouldn't talk to her. I said I wouldn't discuss relationship stuff with her." He said no such thing. He said that he wasn't going to talk to her at all because she was bad news.

Frankly, I don't care if he is having an emotional affair. We have experimented with the whole open relationship thing and one of the ground rules was honesty. I know that there is another lady that he talks to and flirts with online but I don't care about him talking to her as it is a totally different scenario. He hasn't told me that he isn't talking to her and she isn't the same kind of person as the church lady.

[Pingo]

He says that he hasn't shared any relationship details with her in over a year. He also claims that they haven't talked in a long time either. He says that he wanted to know about the church stuff, saw her online, and asked. I feel like I can communicate with him okay on this. My problem is that he is so convincing that I usually buy whatever crap he says and let it go. It is a pervasive pattern where I will ask him something, he will give an answer and then swear that it is the truth. There have been way too many instances where I have later found out that he was lying to me. He doesn't seem to understand why I don't trust him and why I cannot invest anything into the relationship. He even went so far as to say, "I let you look at all of the messages. If I was hiding anything, I would have deleted them." I brought up the fact that he called her, which is a nice way to cover any conversation that he doesn't want me to know about. I don't trust him any further than I can throw him because of all of the times that he has deceived me or outright lied to me.

Vortex, trust your gut, trust your gut, trust your gut.  In my 4 yr r/s, all the things I had a gut feeling about came true.  Every one of them.  And every time he was soo convincing, would look at me straight in the eye and lie to me.  I didn't find out most of it until near the end of the r/s and after it ended.  If I had just trusted my gut I would have saved myself so much heartache. 

I've read your posts over the last couple months and I know you aren't a paranoid person.  You self-reflect.  You question.  You analyse.  These are all things a person does trying to heal and become healthy.  Trust your gut and don't apologise for your feelings.

[Mutt]

Vortex, trust your gut, trust your gut, trust your gut.  In my 4 yr r/s, all the things I had a gut feeling about came true.  Every one of them.  And every time he was soo convincing, would look at me straight in the eye and lie to me.

This is my point vortex of confusion. My ex did the same thing. Was convincing when I confronted her about another man. She smiled, chuckled and said " Mutt, there's no other man". It had been going on for months. I'm not saying it's certainty, I'm saying there's possibility here and you may be in denial and not looking at the big picture. Protect yourself and the kids. This is how these r/s's start to really break down. I could also be wrong. Better to be safe than sorry. If there's a slight bit of hint that you think there's something going on. TRUST your gut.

[ForeverDad]

Notice how all the response say to trust your gut.  There's time-proven reason for that advice.  We've been there, done that.  There likely is a very good reason for there to be a lack of trust in the relationship.

I reply sometimes to posts on the Staying board, but not often.  Here's why, I feel there are two basic reasons for staying... .

• Staying (while improving)... .You are learning skills and boundaries, your spouse also is making some measure of progress.



• Staying (for now)... .You are new here, you are starting to learn skills and boundaries, you hope your spouse will also make some progress.

What is the difference?  A small part is how new you are, if new you want to try all you can to see if anything will work.  The rest, the major part, is whether your spouse chooses to make progress toward recovery or at least sufficient improvement and you can 'Stay' without damaging your mental, physical and emotional health.

So I blurt out to the newer ones that Staying does not mean you should be Stuck in an unhealthy and dysfunctional relationship.  I describe it as "Staying For Now" until you can get some skills and determine whether you can get your spouse into therapy or at least make enough improvement so the home environment is viable and not (so) dysfunctional and unhealthy.  The key is that you accept that you can control only you, you can't control the other person.  If they improve, then Staying is Feasible.  If they don't improve then Staying For Now should transition into, um, different goals.

So, Staying or Leaving is, to a certain extent, not up to you if you are trying to Stay.  If the other improves sufficiently, then of course you want to Stay.  If the other doesn't improve significantly, then well... .

[vortex of confusion]

Notice how all the response say to trust your gut.  There's time-proven reason for that advice.  We've been there, done that.  There likely is a very good reason for there to be a lack of trust in the relationship.

There are lots of reasons there is a lack of trust. I have 16.5 years worth of reasons. The first one happened early on. He swore up and down that he wasn't looking at porn. Looked me in the eye, encouraged me to check the internet history and everything else. I let it go. And, then at some point he was forced to resign from his job because he got caught looking at porn at work. I let that go but it definitely was the beginning of a trend.

So, Staying or Leaving is, to a certain extent, not up to you if you are trying to Stay.  If the other improves sufficiently, then of course you want to Stay.  If the other doesn't improve significantly, then well... .

In all honesty, I don't really want to stay but need to for financial and practical reasons. I have a lot of stuff to figure out. I am at a point where I feel like there isn't much he can do to keep me. As I try to detach, I find myself slipping back into getting sucked in by his acts of sincerity and remorse. When he was telling me that he didn't intend to deceive or do anything questionable, it would have been so easy for me to believe him. I don't trust my own judgment any more. Sometimes, I write this stuff out and realize how ridiculous it all sounds. How could anybody in their right might come to any other conclusion given past history? And, I would much rather get feedback on the forums than make things worse or try to get any kind of feedback from him.

Tonight, I told him that I felt really frustrated because I don't feel like I can trust him. I told him that there are days when I wake up and want to tell him to leave because of his behavior. I felt like he wasn't taking any of my concerns seriously. He said, "I know. You could wake up tomorrow and throw me out and I would have nothing but the car and the clothes on my back. I know that I could wake up tomorrow and literally end up living on the streets." I had to resist the urge to yell and scream at him for thinking such a thing. I would never do such a thing unless he got really physical with me or one of the kids. I asked him what made him think that I would leave him homeless. He didn't have an answer. I really want to know what I have done to him to make him think that I would kick him out on the street. I know there isn't an answer and that is how he feels. He did say that he thought that I had it in me to do that. I validated and said, "Yes, I do have the ability to do such a thing. I know that I have a mean streak but I work my a$$ off to be kind and generous to you and it really hurts that you think I would do that to you. Not only that, but it feels very manipulative and guilt inducing. I feel like you are trying to take advantage of my kindness and make me sound like a horrible person."

As far as improving, he has had 16.5 years to work on improving. He has been in SAA for over a year and is only on step 5. He has only been to 3 counseling sessions since he started going 4 or 5 months ago. Sure, there are small improvements but I don't feel like he will ever improve enough for me to stay for the long haul. I really need to do a better job of trusting my own judgment and not questioning myself so much. I realize that I would benefit from seeing a T but I have to find the money to do it as I don't have health insurance (he does).

[Pingo]

Tonight, I told him that I felt really frustrated because I don't feel like I can trust him. I told him that there are days when I wake up and want to tell him to leave because of his behavior. I felt like he wasn't taking any of my concerns seriously. He said, "I know. You could wake up tomorrow and throw me out and I would have nothing but the car and the clothes on my back. I know that I could wake up tomorrow and literally end up living on the streets." I had to resist the urge to yell and scream at him for thinking such a thing. I would never do such a thing unless he got really physical with me or one of the kids. I asked him what made him think that I would leave him homeless. He didn't have an answer. I really want to know what I have done to him to make him think that I would kick him out on the street. I know there isn't an answer and that is how he feels. He did say that he thought that I had it in me to do that. I validated and said, "Yes, I do have the ability to do such a thing. I know that I have a mean streak but I work my a$$ off to be kind and generous to you and it really hurts that you think I would do that to you. Not only that, but it feels very manipulative and guilt inducing. I feel like you are trying to take advantage of my kindness and make me sound like a horrible person."

I am not in your r/s or in your H's head so this is just based on my own experience in my marriage but it seems like he knows what to say to you when you challenge him with your feelings to keep you second guessing yourself.  You explained your feelings and he turned it around to make you question yourself and it took the heat off him and what you were actually pointing out: that you don't trust him.  I know this subtle manipulation oh so well as that was my experience for 4 yrs.  Just my feeling based on what you said here.

[Mutt]

I really need to do a better job of trusting my own judgment and not questioning myself so much. I realize that I would benefit from seeing a T but I have to find the money to do it as I don't have health insurance (he does).

Don't be hard on yourself   There's FOG and it's confusing. Your intuition may be ever so slightly there and that's just enough. LISTEN to that voice. FOLLOW it's guidance.

[vortex of confusion]

Thank you Mutt and Pingo!

Trying to find my way out of this FOG is hell. My intuition has never gone away. It has always been there screaming at me in the background. I have just managed to tie it up and gag it and keep it quiet.

As far as documenting things, I don't think I have anything to worry about if I go for a divorce. Given my husband's sex addiction and some of the things that have transpired, I don't think he will fight me on much of anything when stuff gets real. He knows that I am very logical and reasonable and will use the law in my favor.

[Mutt]

As far as documenting things, I don't think I have anything to worry about if I go for a divorce. Given my husband's sex addiction and some of the things that have transpired, I don't think he will fight me on much of anything when stuff gets real. He knows that I am very logical and reasonable and will use the law in my favor.

You're welcome. Know that I'm not criticizing you when I say this. The person that you've known for 16.5 is not the same person when / if you choose to divorce. If his fear of abandonment REALLY gets triggered. Game over. This board is a testament to that. I'm saying this for you and your kids. Every little bit counts, stack the odds in your favor (document EVERYTHING), talk to an L, you said you emotionally checked out, start thinking about your needs and the kids needs.

[Pingo]

As far as documenting things, I don't think I have anything to worry about if I go for a divorce. Given my husband's sex addiction and some of the things that have transpired, I don't think he will fight me on much of anything when stuff gets real. He knows that I am very logical and reasonable and will use the law in my favor.

You're welcome. Know that I'm not criticizing you when I say this. The person that you've known for 16.5 is not the same person when / if you choose to divorce. If his fear of abandonment REALLY gets triggered. Game over. This board is a testament to that. I'm saying this for you and your kids. Every little bit counts, stack the odds in your favor (document EVERYTHING), talk to an L, you said you emotionally checked out, start thinking about your needs and the kids needs.

I would say the exact same thing.  The person you marry is not the person you divorce and even more so with someone with a personality disorder.  I have learned this the hard way!

[vortex of confusion]

You're welcome. Know that I'm not criticizing you when I say this. The person that you've known for 16.5 is not the same person when / if you choose to divorce. If his fear of abandonment REALLY gets triggered. Game over. This board is a testament to that. I'm saying this for you and your kids. Every little bit counts, stack the odds in your favor (document EVERYTHING), talk to an L, you said you emotionally checked out, start thinking about your needs and the kids needs.

I didn't take it as criticism at all. It is the cold hard truth and that is what scares me. I know that I have to get myself in a position where I can stand on my own two feet emotionally and financially. I know that I have to be very strategic and very careful and I have to be in a position where I can play dirty if that is where he tries to go. I know that I have done some things that could be very damning towards me. I am not overlooking that at all.

Things that I have in my favor:

1. He is a sex addict. I don't see him being able to deny this.

2. It was his idea for us to see other people. I have emails where the two of us were talking to a guy that he was sending me off to see. There is stuff like him asking the other guy whether he prefers clean or shaven. And, there are instances where he is telling the other guy to take care of their girl (or something like that). Some of the emails would be damning towards me but it shows that he knew what I was doing and openly encouraged it. I am not afraid of my demons and am more than willing to explain myself to a judge or anybody else. Most of my demons can be easily blamed on him if it came down to me having to answer for them in a court of law.

3. I have a much better work history than he does.

4. I am much more savvy when it comes to talking to people and navigating legal and practical matters.

5. All of our kids can attest to the amount of time that he spends on the computer. That alone can be exploited and used in my favor.

6. He is the only one in the house that has health insurance. He won't do anything to help the kids and I get health insurance.

And those are just the things that I can think of off the top of my head. I don't want a fight and I don't want things to get ugly but I am very aware that there is a strong possibility that things will get ugly. I have seen small glimpses of it. I know this is going to make me sound very weird but there was a time when he was taking pictures of me and encouraging me to send them to my friend. He absolutely loved that. One day, he got on my phone and found that I had sent my friend something without his permission. He flipped out and started cussing at me and yelling and stomping around. It was really scary. When we moved a couple of states away, I wanted to stay behind because I didn't want to live with his mom with three small kids. He wouldn't hear of us staying behind. I don't even remember all of the reasons now. I just know that I gave in and lived with his parents for 4 months because he couldn't stand the thought of being separated from us. When I am at work, he emails the whole time. One night, I disappeared on email because I just didn't feel like talking to him. I had other things to do. When I got home, I was greeting with a rather accusatory, "Is there a reason that you didn't email me any more after 7?"

So, I am very aware of what I will likely have to do with. Right now, I think he is "unintentionally" trying to guilt me into staying by saying things like he knows that I have the ability to put him out on the street. It is funny because he is the one that brings home the lion's share of the money. He is the one with the full time job, not me.

That does lead me to a question that some people on this board might be able to answer: What do I do if he never wants to leave? This is his house. Is it possible to file for divorce and get him evicted from his own house? It was bought while married so it belongs to both of us as we live in a community property state. And, I believe it is also no fault. Most of the information that I would need would be information to prove why I should get custody of the kids and the house. Really, those are the only two things that I want if it were to proceed to divorce. He can have the better car. He can have whatever books he wants. He can have pretty much anything he wants as far as material possessions go. All I want is the house, the kids, and some financial support. And, really, I would like to be able to get myself into a position where I don't even need his financial support.

[maxen]

In all honesty, I don't really want to stay but need to for financial and practical reasons.

that's a tough one. you have more-than-absolutely legitimate issues with your husband, as detailed above, but the emotional tension within yourself may become hard to sustain.

may i ask, are you RC? if so, does that factor into your thinking?

[ForeverDad]

Be careful not to *assume* a divorce would go in your favor.  Many mothers who are members here have complained that they have nearly as much trouble getting a decent outcome as do the fathers.  It's almost as though there are two factors... .

(1) Many rules, procedures, calculations, policies, etc are set up so they give default preference to a non-working mother.  So if you're the functional parent and working, then being a mother may not help you that much.

(2) It could be that the court bends over backwards to protect the rights of the messed up person who is the Squeaky Wheel.

Be careful not to *assume* a divorce would go in your favor.  You need a solid strategy, backup strategies, etc.  Expect the other person to throw a few curve balls.  Better to be prepared and nothing happen rather than be unprepared and negatively impacted.

Domestic court logic is not everyday logic... .

1.  Court may care little or nothing about his adult behaviors, even if they're non-productive and even viewed poorly.  My not-a-lawyer observation is that it might not be seen as actionable or having compelling weight in the divorce.  It might have more impact as 'leverage' for a better settlement?

2.  Court may not try to judge you as better than him or him worse than you regarding adult behaviors.

3.  Better work history could put you at risk of paying him support depending on income disparity, parenting schedule, etc.

4.  Truism:  The person who is behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.  I did everything right in court and it seemed my ex did everything wrong in court, though her lawyer did manage to keep her quiet most of the time in hearings.  She walked in and got temp custody and majority time when the court had one question about our work schedules and she said she "worked from home".  (Translation: SAHM making about $100/month.)  It took me 8 years to get that fixed.

5. Will court care whether he is on the computer a lot?  Observation:  Court does not try to change people, it deals with them as they are.  You might manage to get Anger Management classes but it's just some classes.

6. Filing for divorce usually freezes insurance status so that the other parent or the children can't be dropped.  This is the reverse.  You would probably have to document that you requested for your and the children to be added to his insurance and then when you file ask for him to be required/ordered to add you and the kids, though I'm not sure if that order would be considered a 'qualifying event'.  For sure the court will order it for the children, not so sure about you.  Be aware that once the divorce is final then he would be required to report it to the insurance company, children could still be covered but once divorced you'd be offered COBRA instead an given 2-3 months to accept or not before termination.  The final decree would detail the obligations of each parent regards insurance for the children going forward.

I'm not saying your assumptions won't work well for you, but don't count on it.  It's shocking all the things that are brought to the court's attention and ignored as "not actionable".  In most areas adult behaviors are easily ignored and only the more extreme or actionable parenting behaviors have impact.

These are just general observations.  You need multiple consultations with a few local family law attorneys and they can advise you on how things generally are viewed and handled in your area.  Consultations are not very expensive, then you can have a better idea of the factors your local court is most concerned about.

What is he like?  Is he the sort of person to wander away?  Or is he a possessive and entitled parent?  Or is he somewhere in between likely to seek more parenting just to avoid paying as much child support?

[vortex of confusion]

that's a tough one. you have more-than-absolutely legitimate issues with your husband, as detailed above, but the emotional tension within yourself may become hard to sustain.

may i ask, are you RC? if so, does that factor into your thinking?

Yes, there is a lot of emotional tension within myself. I am slowly working to resolve it by reading, posting on these boards, and being totally honest with myself. It isn't easy at all.

RC? What is that? My first thought is Roman Catholic. He is and I am technically am because I joined the church at one point. That didn't last long though. Really, that is another factor in my favor. I have never stood in the way of him practicing his religion in whatever way he wanted. When we got married, I went through all of the marriage prep with him and we got married in the church. After we had been married a couple of years, I joined the church to try to connect with him and bring our family closer together. I encouraged us to pray the rosary together as a family and have family meals. I even volunteered to teach some of the CCE classes. That was all short lived. I would ask him questions. I would ask him to include me when he did his office of the hours. He used to be a monk and still does the daily readings and prayers whether he goes to church or not. He wouldn't pray with me and he wouldn't answer my religious questions. I feel like he took my questions and genuine desire to get closer to him as knock against him or his religion. That has come up recently. He said that he felt like I was being critical of his religion. I pointed out that I didn't become critical of it until AFTER I had joined the church and had some bad experiences and big questions about it. I feel like a lot of that could have been resolved if he had met me half way and helped me understand things better. I think even that could be used in my favor to demonstrate that I have been very accommodating and supportive of him. All of our kids were baptized in the Catholic church.

[ForeverDad]

When we moved a couple of states away, I wanted to stay behind because I didn't want to live with his mom with three small kids. He wouldn't hear of us staying behind. I don't even remember all of the reasons now. I just know that I gave in and lived with his parents for 4 months because he couldn't stand the thought of being separated from us.

Isolation is a known PD weapon.  I wonder if the move was meant to Isolate you from those who could support you... .

If you have not lived there six months yet then you probably haven't ended your 'residency' regarding custody issues in your prior state.  If you leave before six months and go back then you could quickly file before he has a legal right to file in his family's state.  If your support network is in the prior state and you have been away less than six months, then going back and filing from there soon may keep the ball in your local court and not in his state on his home turf.

When I am at work, he emails the whole time.

Apparently your work allows you to email frequently?  How about telling him your work is limiting how much you can email or text?  You might even have to go in to your manager and ask to be told that so you can feel honest about telling your spouse that.

[vortex of confusion]

These are just general observations.  You need multiple consultation with local family law attorneys and they can advise you on how things generally are viewed and handled in your area.

Thank you so much for these observations ForeverDad! This is the kind of stuff that I need to hear moving forward. As painful as it is, it is the truth and I need to take it into account and plan for it accordingly.

I currently have two jobs but still don't make as much money as he does. One of my jobs allows me to work from home and the other is 12 hours a week (two nights and Sunday). I am the stay at home parent and I have always homeschooled the kids. I worry that the court could order me to put them in school. That is not unheard of in court proceedings, especially if he wanted to push it to get out of paying any kind of support. I could see it going that way since I have several degrees and the ability to work.

I do know that I live in a very conservative area that would not look too highly upon the sexual aspects of things. I don't know if I am right on this but I do think that the courts would not look too highly upon his bisexual behavior. Some of his behaviors towards me border on sexual abuse. If I have to, I can go to the local women's center and get legal aid there. They have a pretty good track record of fighting for women when abuse is involved.

I do anticipate his mother getting involved and helping him to fight me tooth and nail. Several years ago when we were having problems, she mentioned talking to a lawyer friend of hers about stuff. So, I know I will have that to deal with. She will do whatever she can to make my life hell. I am pretty sure that she can and will paint me out to be a horrible person. Right now, she says she doesn't want to get involved. I know that my husband talks to her regularly but he only talks to her in the car. He won't talk to her when I am around so I have no idea what kind of crap he is feeding her.

And I do know of his tendency to garner sympathy by bringing up all of his ailments and problems: Sex addiction, diabetes, depression, high blood pressure, thyroid issues, along with some other stuff. I could easily be painted out to be a horrible b**ch that is trying to steam roll my poor little sick and innocent husband. I have been put on that guilt trip for most of our marriage. From a purely practical stand point, our family histories could be brought up. He is the all American boy that grew up in a small town. Went to private schools, was a monk, played football, did track, wrestled, was an Eagle Scout. His parents were pillars of the community. My family is full of people that are mentally ill, have prison records, and are generally unstable.

[vortex of confusion]

Isolation is a known PD weapon.  I wonder if the move was meant to Isolate you from those who could support you... .

I don't think that was the reason in all honesty. It didn't work anyway. He wouldn't find us a place to live so my parents came up and helped me and the kids find a house. We moved to a snowy state in the middle of winter and I have no idea how to drive on snow or ice and I wasn't about to try to do it with three little kids in the car.

If you have not lived there six months yet then you probably haven't ended your 'residency' regarding custody issues in your prior state.  If you leave before six months and go back then you could quickly file before he has a legal right to file in his family's state.  If your support network is in the prior state and it is still less then six months away, then going back soon may keep the ball in your court and not on his home turf.

That little escapade was back in 2007/2008. We only lived in that state for a total of 8 months before moving back to our old house. Our house in the state we left never sold and the job that he took didn't work out so we came back home. We have been in our current house for 11 years (minus the 8 months in the other state). This is my home state and I could probably tap into a lot of resources if I needed to. That is something else that could be used against me. I can easily see how things could be turned around and it could be said that I isolate him because this is my home state and this is where my family lives. That is part of the reason for moving to his home state. His parents are elderly and we both thought it would be a good idea to be closer to them so they could get to know their grandkids and such.

Apparently your work allows you to email frequently?  How about telling him your work is limiting how much you can email or text?  You might even have to go in to your manager and ask to be told that so you can feel honest about telling your spouse that.

He knows my boss and he knows what my job entails as he is in the same profession as me. He knows that my boss would never limit how much I email or text because my boss spends a lot of his days playing on FB and we both have my boss on FB.

[ForeverDad]

Which is more important to you... .home schooling?  or you and the children living lives away from the constant daily pressure, demands and chaos?

I'm not saying those are your only choices but you may have to make some sacrifices to get what you and the children need.  It's far better to make limited sacrifices than to be sacrificed.  So with that in mind, which is a higher priority?  Once you figure out what is needed most then you will see the resulting options available much more clearly.

Think, decision tree.

[ForeverDad]

Apparently your work allows you to email frequently?  How about telling him your work is limiting how much you can email or text?  You might even have to go in to your manager and ask to be told that so you can feel honest about telling your spouse that.

He knows my boss and he knows what my job entails as he is in the same profession as me. He knows that my boss would never limit how much I email or text because my boss spends a lot of his days playing on FB and we both have my boss on FB.

Hmm... .So can that be one of your new Boundaries set in place at the right time?  Boundaries are crucial.  Doesn't mean he will obey them, not at first, but without boundaries you can't make progress.

Read up on Extinction Bursts too.  Anytime a change such as a new boundary occurs, you're likely to get an overreaction meant to overwhelm you and force you to retreat back into past passive patterns.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0;all

[vortex of confusion]

As far as the homeschooling goes, I am not sure that is a high priority. What is a priority is making sure that the girls are in a position academically and emotionally where they could go to school without being traumatized. One of my concerns is springing too many changes on the kids all at once as the older two have a lot of anxiety and do not handle change well. I am trying to see if I can figure out some possible alternatives. Identify all the different possibilities and figure out which one would make the most sense.

Really, I would even be willing to work full time and give him the option of staying with the kids and letting me pay support and let him homeschool the kids and go for joint custody. I have no desire to be unreasonable or demanding. But, I do have to consider all possibilities. I do know that a person that is willing to compromise will be seen in a much better light than somebody that is going to stomp his feet and act like a pompous a$$.

As for the boundaries, I have been working on those. Getting him to only email me while I am at work is a HUGE success. He used to email me all day while he was at work and if I didn't respond right away he would call and check on me. And, he used to call and talk to me the whole way home from work. Now, he doesn't send me emails while at work and will only send an occasional FB message. And, he has stopped calling repeatedly through out the day. We only call each other if there is something to talk about and we do call each other on his lunch hour. Sad to say, but I am making progress with the boundaries. And, he no longer gets upset if I don't call him on my way home from work. I only call him if I am going to stop at the store. It is slow going because I am trying to do things slowly to prevent too much push back and keep things as peaceful as possible. Too much conflict sends the kids into a tizzy so I am trying to be careful and not turn their world upside down by implementing too much too fast.

[ForeverDad]

As far as the homeschooling goes, I am not sure that is a high priority. What is a priority is making sure that the girls are in a position academically and emotionally where they could go to school without being traumatized. One of my concerns is springing too many changes on the kids all at once as the older two have a lot of anxiety and do not handle change well... .  Too much conflict sends the kids into a tizzy... .

This may be at least partly due to the dysfunctional family and home environment.  Provide them a more emotionally stable and calm environment and they may very well surprise you how well they do.  One drawback with home schooling is that the children do not socialize as much on a daily basis with the other children, teachers, etc.

Really, I would even be willing to work full time and give him the option of staying with the kids and letting me pay support and let him homeschool the kids and go for joint custody. I have no desire to be unreasonable or demanding. But, I do have to consider all possibilities. I do know that a person that is willing to compromise will be seen in a much better light than somebody that is going to stomp his feet and act like a pompous a$$.

Whoa!  This idea would most likely backfire, it would likely enable him even more than he currently is.  You are thinking the being overly fair and overly giving will earn you points.  It won't.  Such efforts are more likely to be self-sabotaging than helpful.

Perhaps the others here can join in with their thoughts too.

One serious disadvantage us Nice Guys and Nice Gals have is that we are too nice, too fair, too forgiving, too willing to minimize, too whatever.

This is what can be self-sabotaging, trying to be overly fair, overly whatever.

I mentioned before how marriage is all about Emotions and the positives, divorce is about unwinding things as businesslike as possible.  You can be both Businesslike and kind and fair.  Let me add that Sharing is also a sensitive issue.  In order for a marriage to work there must be sharing, but if the marriage is ending then some things are best kept Confidential and not Shared so they are not used against you to sabotage you.

{excerpts about mediation pitfalls... .}

• Most courts require mediation, usually as an early step in the divorce process.  So attempt it in good faith but realize that your spouse is likely be too entitled to be agreeable to any reasonable settlement.  Usually a settlement isn't reached until the other spouse has exhausted all other ways to delay, obstruct, demand, etc and feels less entitled, often just before a trial, hearing or other major event that could expose the spouse's poor behavior and behavior patterns.  Knowing that, it's okay for mediation to fail but at least you tried and can state so if the judge asks.



• ... .You never need to feel Stuck or Cornered or Forced to Give In.



• Don't start with a "fair" offer.  Don't start with your "final" offer either.  We here are likely to be too fair, too thoughtful, too nice, too whatever.  It would be like a contest between a sponge and a brick wall, we'd probably walk out with very little.



• It's okay to say "No!"  Remember, mediation is an early step in the process, mediation does not have to succeed, especially if success means the terms are lousy for you and your children.



• Don't expect your spouse to reciprocate your good motives.  Reciprocity seldom happens.



• Concessions are likely to invite more and more demands.  Sadly, a disordered spouse can interpret reasonableness as weakness and an invitation to be less cooperative.



• People with BPD can't negotiate as we can.  Their perceptions, moods and feelings affect them too deeply and their greatest power is convincing us they can't ever be reasonable and so we give in and give up.  (Appeasing didn't work in the past, it won't work here.)



• See it as setting boundaries.  Let your No mean No.  Some things are non-negotiable.  Other things can be part of deals.



• It is vital to start by asking more than you expect to walk out with.  Why?  You already know your spouse will have his or her own extremely high demands.  You start high too so you have to have some things to give up in negotiation.



• Let your spouse feel a 'winner' by getting some things you had initially said you wanted but in reality were willing to let go.  That's strategy.  That's negotiation.



• Don't counter your own offers.  For example, if you state what you want and spouse doesn't counter with what spouse wants, then don't fill the void by making concessions just because you want to fill the silence.



• Be prepared for surprises.  Go in hoping for success, but plan for either success or failure.



• For most here, mediation failed.  That's okay, you just keep the case moving along to the next steps in court.

You need to get and keep as much of an edge for temporary custody or at least decision-making authority as you can.  Being overly nice or too fair in giving him more time with the children and more control of their lives won't get you anything but pain and regret in the years to come.  Sorry to be so blunt.  Accept that for now and in time you'll see the wisdom in having the reasonable and relatively sane parent stay in charge.

[vortex of confusion]

You need to get and keep as much of an edge for temporary custody or at least decision-making authority as you can.  Being overly nice or too fair in giving him more time with the children and more control of their lives won't get you anything but pain and regret in the years to come.  Sorry to be so blunt.  Accept that for now and in time you'll see the wisdom in having the reasonable and relatively sane parent stay in charge.

I need blunt! I need to be very realistic and go in fully prepared to handle a fight.

Given some of the things that he has said, I am more prone to believe that he would walk away without a fight because it would set him free. He has made remarks to the effect that he wouldn't want to see the kids or wouldn't be able to give us support. The more I read, the more I realize that this is probably just an attempt to keep me confused and in the FOG so that he can delay things as much as possible. When I have brought up splitting things or agreeing to take on responsibility for different things as a way to make way for us to split, he says that there is no need to do that right now because it will take another 4 years to get out of the debt management plan. I feel like he is holding the debt management plan over my head as an excuse to NOT do anything. Any conversation that I try to have about us going separate ways is met with stuff like, "We need to be more financially viable first." Or, "It is too soon to make that decision." I feel like they are basic stall tactics. He can't seem to work harder to improve things but he doesn't want to leave either. I feel like he wants everything to stay exactly as it is. That is why it is up to me to figure this stuff out for myself to protect me and the kids.

As far as providing a more stable environment, I am very aware of that. I saw glimpses of the kids really shining during the weekend when he was gone.

[david]

If he left on his own accord how would you take care of the kids. Make that your plan and follow accordingly.

My ex left in 2007 with our two boys. I was afraid for our two boys (4.5 and 8.5) at the time. The first three years were the worse. I eventually learned how to single parent. I stopped trying to co parent and moved forward. The boys are doing better than I ever imagined back then.

If your gut is telling you something is not right, you talk to him and he dismisses your concerns, and the same cycle continues over and over you will not move forward in the relationship and it will slowly disintegrate. Having the children go through that or stopping the cycle asap are the two choices. Focus on the kids.

[vortex of confusion]

If he left on his own accord how would you take care of the kids. Make that your plan and follow accordingly.

My ex left in 2007 with our two boys. I was afraid for our two boys (4.5 and 8.5) at the time. The first three years were the worse. I eventually learned how to single parent. I stopped trying to co parent and moved forward. The boys are doing better than I ever imagined back then.

If your gut is telling you something is not right, you talk to him and he dismisses your concerns, and the same cycle continues over and over you will not move forward in the relationship and it will slowly disintegrate. Having the children go through that or stopping the cycle asap are the two choices. Focus on the kids.

If he left on his own, I could easily take care of the kids on my own. I work two part time jobs and could probably afford to pay the mortgage, lights, phone, water, etc. on my own. It would make things really, really tight but I think I could manage. He would have to worry about his student loan payments, the car note, and his debt management plan.

I am working on stopping the cycle first and foremost. Part of stopping the cycle is NOT getting sucked into his apologies and forgetting why I was mad or upset in the first place. I tend to be a very forgiving person and he takes advantage of that. He says all of the right things and acts like a whipped puppy. I am working on my side of things so that I can stop the cycle by not believing his BS any longer. I used to get caught up in the whole, "but I didn't intend to" thing. It doesn't matter whether or not he intends to do those things or not. The end result is the same.

[livednlearned]

Hi vortex,

I divorced my N/BPDx husband four years ago and the journey from there to here has been the most profound thing I've ever gone through. My advice to you is to make it priority #1 to get a good therapist. Someone who is action-oriented, and who can be direct. These divorces are the big league -- not just because people with BPD are high conflict, but because people like us have a script that runs through our heads that sabotages us and prevents us from taking care of ourselves. And by taking care of ourselves, I don't mean in the warm and fuzzy way. I mean the kind that makes your life count, and gives your kids a strong parent figure they can hold onto. If you can figure out how to pay for a therapist and make it the most important thing you've ever done, then you have what it takes to end this marriage. A lot of the best therapists don't take insurance because they don't have to. Some will let you pay them on a sliding scale. Prove to yourself that you care about yourself, that you are resourceful, and get a therapist as soon as possible.

If you are truly serious about leaving, a whole other you is going to emerge, and you're going to shed some seriously dysfunctional thinking.  You have developed patterns and habits of thoughts that will sabotage you over and over again, and many of us, at least in the early stages when we try to initiate divorce proceedings, can't be trusted to put ourselves first. You need to find a positive advocate who understands the kind of psychology people like us have that make us stay in these relationships. Otherwise you will drag yourself and your kids through a lot of unnecessary trauma.

Divorce is largely the end of a contract, and people who do best in a high-conflict divorce seem able to compartmentalize divorce into two parts. One part is ending the business of the marriage with the help of a lawyer. The other is ending the relationship with the help of a therapist. You need both.

Almost everything you think you know about how family court works and custody is probably wrong. Read Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse to learn how mental illness and family court mix. You need to consult with a lawyer, preferably several, before you can predict how things will go with your divorce. Consulting with a lawyer usually costs $100-$300/hr depending on where you live, sometimes less. Put together a list of questions (friends here can help) about what you need to ask, and then make an appointment. If you have a supportive friend or family member, have them go with you so someone can write notes. You are going to be experiencing a lot of emotion and won't remember everything.

Don't talk about divorce with your H anymore. You will make it worse for yourself, your kids, and for him. You are not obligated to tell him how you feel, what you want, or try to work out an agreeable solution when the topic is divorce. Be aware, though, that when you start to emotional detach, he will sense it and likely step up the crocodile tears and whatnot. That's why you need a therapist.

You have friends here. The collective wisdom of people here who have gone through this is amazing.

Hang in there  

LnL

[david]

I went to several therapists until I found one that fit for me. 

Many attorneys will have a free 45 minute consultation where you can ask whatever you want and also give info to see what they think. The additional bonus is that every atty you see, whether you use them or not, can't be used by your h. Using the rules of the game to your advantage is a big plus. I learned that the court system serves justice. Justice is following the rules of the game and the person that does that best wins. It has nothing to do with what is right or wrong. Using the rules to accomplish what is the right thing can be done but you need to figure out how to play the rules in order to do that.

My state (Pa) does not allow recordings without a court order. Even if two people sign a consent form it can still be argued in court and not allowed. I was yelled at by a judge when he found out I was recording. It didn't change anything in the ruling and I continued. Later my atty told me I needed to stop recording. I explained I had no way of protecting myself from ex's false allegations. I had three protection orders filed against me and an assault charge. They were all false allegations. The assault charge was changed to disorderly conduct and I lost my job. That was when I started recording. After my atty insisted I stop I thought a little more. I explained that I wasn't recording my ex and I. I was simply recording myself. If ex filed a charge against me I could prove through the recording that I indeed did not do what she alleged. I figured the judge could disregard what ex was saying and just listen to what I was saying and doing. My video camera is pointed at me whenever ex is near. There is nothing that says I can't record myself. He thought about it and said to continue what I was doing. I was following the law, although it was a technicality, and it would protect me. However, I could not use the video to charge ex with false allegations or anything else because that would be against the law.

If he rages in front of you or the kids you need to record them. Put them in a safe place. Recordings may not be used in court. It depends on the state. However, in a custody eval they can be used and may be very helpful.

Also, your subject said "Am I crazy?" Crazy people don't ask that question.

My ex did so many things that I would not have even dreamed of doing to someone I despised. Nothing she does now surprises me.