Is it BPD

[SlyQQ]

Curious about other peoples take on this Firstly the term BPD traits to me some one is either BPD or not I am aware this is a spectrum disorder but I strongly believe someone is either BPD or not an people who do not have BPD should be treated quite differently Secondly it seems apparent to me that there is a neurochemical basis ( litereture mixed on this ) for BPD there is solid evidence that BPD is of a hereditry nature for one it also has been described by reputable medical sources as a " gateway to bipolar" there are shown descrepencies between BPD an non BPD in such things as oxytocin levels not to mention it was originally thought of on the " border" between axis one an two illness very interested in what other parents think about all this

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Kwamina]

Hi there SlyQQ

You raise some very good points here. I would like to share some of my own insights with you.

Curious about other peoples take on this

Firstly the term BPD traits to me some one is either BPD or not

I am aware this is a spectrum disorder but I strongly believe

someone is either BPD or not an people who do not have BPD

should be treated quite differently

You are of course absolutely right that there's a big difference between having BPD or not and that both categories require a different approach. However, many people with BPD aren't officially diagnosed and often are unwilling to get diagnosis or seek treatment. Sometimes members come here and aren't 100% sure if the people in their lives have BPD or not, partly because they might not be officially diagnosed. But even then they might clearly identify BPD like behaviors or traits in them. There are also people who for instance as a result of being raised by BPD parents, have learned or developed BPD like behavioral traits. I was raised by an undiagnosed BPD mother myself and I too learned many unhealthy behaviors from her. Luckily these behaviors and coping mechanisms can also be unlearned through hard work.

Secondly it seems apparent to me that there is a neurochemical basis

( litereture mixed on this ) for BPD there is solid evidence that BPD

is of a hereditry nature for one it also has been described by reputable

medical sources as a " gateway to bipolar" there are shown descrepencies

between BPD an non BPD in such things as oxytocin levels not to mention

it was originally thought of on the " border" between axis one an two illness

very interested in what other parents think about all this

Well I'm not a parent but I do have an uBPD mom and uBPD sis. I agree that based on the scientific research done so far and also the personal accounts from people, there are very strong indications of a hereditary component to BPD as well as environmental components. Both my mom and oldest sister are uBPD and also physically they look just alike. When you look at them, my oldest sister is a younger copy of my mother. Not only in behavior, but also in appearance. My case alone doesn't prove the hereditary component of BPD, but there is certainly scientific evidence that provides strong indications in that direction.

[Mutt]

I'd like to add to Kwamina.

BPD can be misdiagnosed as depression. My ex with BPD traits was diagnosed with depression several times. She may or may not have been diagnosed I'm not sure that I'll be certain. Often insurance isn't covered with a BPD diagnosis and Bi-Polar is.

I'm not an MD and cannot make a diagnosis. I can have boundaries against negative behaviors and attributes directed at myself. Boundaries are to keep the good things in and bad stuff out in a simple term. I look at traits.

I can also say that I had picked up behaviors as a child growing up with a father with narcissistic traits.

I have a SD15 that I had met at age of 5. In her tweens she was doing regular stuff as a tween and I noticed mom started splitting her black. She's still split black on and off because she doesn't conform to mom's Queen / Witch dominant sub-roles. I have noticed SD15 cuts and suicidal attempts on several occasions. It's a cry for help I believe as I have not heard SD15 dissciate or project like her mom. I think it's because of undiagnosed mom.

My kids so far have not been split black although uBPDex has displayed disproportionate anger directed at them on more than one occasions.

My point is sometimes the children are treated differently as well. The "split black" child will suffer self-esteem issues and prone to substance abuse later in life. Whereas a "split white" child will have a distorted sense of self from the idealization of a parent.

Let's take this out of the equation SlyQQ BPD, spectrum disorder, Bi-Polar and whatever else.

That said lets look at people. Everybody's different. You and Kwamina are different than I. I agree that people should be handled differently as we all have different personalities. Indifference to the more difficult personalities in life can be a goal. BPD is a disorder and doesn't quantify the person.



--Mutt

[SlyQQ]

Hi Kwin I know what you are saying i look after Two sisters close in age one has mild to moderate abandoment issues cant stand being alone ( has probs spent half a dozen nights in the last two years without someone sleeping over or being with some one) promiscuous drug issues ( by an large only mariujana some alcohol some other) compulsive lying extreme mood swings rage issues ( bought some sushi at shops complained the avocado was slightly brown ) by the time we got into the car full on lost it started kicking an screaming broke the windscreen ( yes over the avocado ) have had school ring me ( concerned for her safety)when they kept her back before returning her phone swearing at teachers screaming hurting herself an storming out school refusal 263 absent days in one year depression issues refered by dr an taken by mental healthservices ( they take 1 in 10 referals ) dissasociation issues highly sensitive personality ( yes even the seeing ghosts part ) Once when we were having a fight an through up my hands to walk away she even said I kid you not "I hate you dont leave me." If I had unknowingly stumbled across the BPD criteria I am re i would have had a minor epiphany an said She is BPD she is most definately not her sister who looks very similar to her BPD mother most definately is however. She sometimes watch uncomprehendingly when i fight with her sister she doesn't understand how we cab be screaming an yelling at eachother but still bottom line be " good " with each other we know we are just having a fight we both know will blow over quickly enough her sister cant even as an onlooker has great difficulty grasping this

[Mutt]

If there's a lot of conflict with the yelling and screaming. Have you tried to validate?

It sounds like a communication issue.

Feelings = Facts to a pwBPD. A pwBPD need a lot of validation.

[SlyQQ]

Wrote last post while you posted yours Mutt apologies if it seemed I ignored you people are different it is true but I read someone here said a dr told them BPD is a diagnosis an as such should not have a stigma attached to it but help in the treatment of the indivdual as such BPD people are different an should be treated acordingly the main difficulty is determining weather some one is actually BPD which I can appreciate may be very difficult

[SlyQQ]

Validation works very well with my non BPD daughter but i have more than one string to my bow this was her last chance to get through school ( she went almost every day last term :0 ) an histronics by me can help hammer home a point sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Something I would never dream of doing with her oh so similar but different sister

[Mutt]

I'm confused.

Fight fire with fire? It's adding fuel to the fire and perpetuates conflict.

It takes two to tango.

Validation works on your non-BPD daughter. It takes patience, compassion, consistency with someone that's disordered. There's an awaful lot of conflict and it takes 1 to stop the conflict.

So how long have you consistently applied validation?

Do you talk to your SD using tools like SET?

[enlighten me]

I was watching a program on psycopaths last night and what struck me is the similarity in behaviour. The big difference though is pscopaths are fearless whereas BPDs have a lot of fear. I have also been reading about bi polar and I can see why so many pwBPD are wrongly diagnosed.

I agree with the chemical imbalance being the cause of their behaviour. I also read about low oxytocin in pwBPD. I believe that there are three ways of developing BPD.

Firstly genetics. You are born with it in the form of part of your brain not functioning properly.

secondly head trauma that damages the part of the brain that causes BPD.

Thirdly enviroment. As the brain is maleable then certain behaviours can reprogram the neural pathways and affect the area of the brain that causes BPD. A bit like a coma patient whos muscles waste away from lack of use.

if this is the case then there is the possibility for a cure to be developed by means of stimulating the affected area abd by dealing with the pscological  problems that lock them into BPD  behaviour.

[SlyQQ]

Sorry Mutt I have mainly been talking about my non BPD daughter you may have been confused I only use confrontation as an absolute LAST RESORT with my BPD daughter the ramifications of extreme conflict with her can be dire ( i private messaged you about this ) as when I HAD to put her in hospital ( yes with police to make sure she would go into ambulance ) it was a situation I had little choice with an is generally to be avoided at all costs with someone who is actually BPD

[SlyQQ]

General concensus is it is often a confluence of chemical an enviormental factors ( possibly triggereed by extreme exposure to high levels of vassopressin ) the result is an large multiplication of reactions to external factors ( this is what Oxytocin does multiplies both favourable an unfavourable reactions ) an maybe why, having low base levels of Oxytcin a BPD individual reacts more strongly to fluctuations in Oxytocin levels this is combined with Vassopressin ( stress hormone ) being a partial agonist ( augments ) oxytocin amplifying further the stress reactions of a BPD individual ( Vassopressin is also associated with Angry face recognition also a known area where BPD are know to badly misread situations compared to "normal people" some of this is speculation and no one really knows nor is there any obvious cure forthcoming ( the obvious solution of something that raises oxytocin levels an drops vassopressin levels as with all neuro chemistry is more luck an guess work than anything else an often causes the oppisite effect to that desired as is the case with most untested psychiatry ) 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[enlighten me]

I believe that due to low oxytocin then it is cortisol that causes BPD symptoms. Oxytocin and vasopressin are produced in the same area of the brain. Ive not seen any research on high vassopressin in pwBPD But I did notice both my exs had a need to constantly hydrate and as vasopresin is a diulect low levels would cause them to dehydrate.

The problem is that as hormone levels constantly fluctuate then you cant give a tablet thatcan alter dosage due to moods.

[SlyQQ]

Yes no magic pill an way to complicated to work out easily maybe over the years they might find something there was a preliminary study by fda on chasteberry ( vitex) no results in yet i think that looked mildly interesting but it really is a case of who knows

[SlyQQ]

Sorry Mutt to clarify i have a very good relationship with my family all of them BPD an non though I would only class my exBPD as reasonable to good I had to put my daughter into hospital because of extreme mania ( bi polar 1 ) there was absolutely nothing i realistically could have done about it ( triggered by major abandoment issues due to my son suprising her by saying her sister was in a car accident a gross exageration that her sister is prone to making  while her boyf was o/s ( an had almost killed himself in a car accident a few weeks earlier ) I have to reluctantly use fire to cut of avenues with her non BPD sister ( fire with fire though she has almost every BPD trait there is )) as she had almost been expelled from school was lying to me about being sick ( something now she readily admits) an was in a situation where she had to go to school or get kicked out I practically had to beg an break down in tears to make them keep her an there was no way anyone else would take her empathy set and everything else had been tried and DIDN"T work hence similar to a firefighter who back burns I used it to cut off her avenues of escape but it is a technique I would never use with her BPD sister who would end up burning rather than retreating

[enlighten me]

I do wonder If it is possible to stimulate the affected areas a bit like physio therapy for the brain.

As neural pathways can be changed then I wonder if the affected areas can be repaired.

[SlyQQ]

My ex BPD was doing a lot of tms ( supposedly for bi polar which she is not ) but has possibly been shown as effacious for BPD an stimulates the ? ( not sure area of the brain ) personally didnt think it was that helpful

[SlyQQ]

Sorry TMS transcranial magnetis stimulation though i think direct stimulation ( electrodes ) though radical may have shown some results somewhere

[enlighten me]

I think that if it is possible it will be a very long term treatment. You would have to compliment it with pscological treatment to break their unhealthy coping mechanism. The treatment may not be succesful if theyire allowed to continue in their way as the chemical imbalance may be what suppresses the area of the brain. Just a theory and ive probably not put it across well.

[Mutt]

I think you mean firewall. My apologies if I misunderstood.