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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Breaking away from my own codependency  (Read 8458 times)
jammo1989
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« on: December 24, 2014, 11:09:32 AM »

The key to my healing is not from getting or begging for closure from my ex, the key here was to educate myself about the disorder, while at the same time using it solely for my own closure.  You should not be researching these personality disorders if your goal is to go back to them, and the reason I say that is because, the people who research this subject with these intentions go back to the stove only to get burnt again.  You will not and can not change who people are, I don't care if your a millionaire, a top psychologist you WONT change them, the more you try the nastier and resentful they will get.

I used this site for closure, asked some of the older members the question that poped into my mind, and by doing so I was able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together, and when I did it was like oh my god! i know who he/she really is.  I can tell you now from experience my ex discarded me telling me to never contact her again while flirting with me in person, she giggled and smirked at me, I was then blocked from social media and phone, and the thing is i didn't harass or chase her, so she had no reason to do this.  I asked the same question on this site over and over, and in the end I used what others had said and began my own research, I started googling thing's like:

The emotional cut off

The silent treatment BPD/NPD

Child of the Narcissistic parent

The more i learnt the more i understood.  After months of research I had a moment of oh my god! I have the key to her happiness, I know what she doesnt. Cluster Bs dont know what they are suffering with but they do know that something isnt right and they will be in denial hence the fake personality and mask they wear.

Was I co dependent?  If you love them because you care, and want to make their life happy, then your the wrong person to go near Cluster Bs, they use our kindness and good will to get what they cant have in life, I was and always have been Co- dependent, but there comes a point when, if you feel like your in a battle you MUST be strong emotionally as a person.

My ex dumped me over the phone, gave me the come here go away behavior, 2 weeks later she text me saying "I want to meet up to give our stuff back"  I then text her best mate that night saying im dropping (insert exes name)off at yours.  15 minutes later i had a barrage of calls 12 in total, I finally picked up and she said you will see me and you will see how much youve hurt me, ill come to your house if i have to! so i finally gave in and said ok.  This is where i broke away from my good will nature, I called friends and asked them how should I act on the day, and from then on i put myself into ALPHA Male mode.

The day finally came she saw me all nervous, giggled and the first thing she said was some guy was hitting on me the other night (provoking looking to see if Narc supply was still available)

i didnt react, she then tried harder and said if i had sex with another guy would you be mad with me?  I said no id just have sex with another girl, next thing i know shes all over me kissing me telling me she loves me so much and that she wanted sex with me (see her mind games here and how they worked?)  Later on that day i was given a hickey and told how handsome I looked .  Later that day i said, ok gotta go now (took control) and she burst out crying, the game was, if i gave a reaction to her actions i would have come across as caring and still a worthy source of Narc supply.

Woman whether healthy or Cluster Bs want a man that can handle any situation they throw at you, so DONT YOU DARE text them saying i miss you, i love you, can we meet up?  because all your doing here is showing her that she has the power here and not you, and especially for Narcs this power gives them a feeling of superiority.  You must not and can not talk to them like you want them back or want to be friends, it doesnt work like that they are emotional vampires, and you are NOT their emotional dildo for when they want you.

My final discard happened when i had to meet her for the last time, she was really kind and loving, asked about my family, told me her 3 year old daughter misses me, also told me that she stalked my FB (she blocked me) and went onto say her and the kids were looking at old pictures of us (She had a BF during this period)  then from out of no where giggled at me, then said dont you ever contact me again, do you understand! with that cruel Narc smirk... .So what did i do? I laughed at her, smiled back and said your gonna miss this sexy voice (had banter) she then smiled and said im bored of talking to you know go away, so i said awwww am i to hot for you to handle? and she stormed off, havent spoken to her since 4 months NC.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

My ex always used to say to me your going to cry over me one day, your going to chase me because all my other exes do, and you know what? I am the 1st guy she has ever blocked completely, and do you know why that is? Its because im an ALPHA male, i dont chase and i sure as hell dont bow to someone who was and still is below me in every aspect of life!    
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Hawk Ridge
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2014, 11:35:24 AM »

Wow! Thank you!
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MrConfusedWithItAll
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2014, 12:21:14 PM »

It has been four months NC for me as well. Plenty of tears just not in front of her.  Not sure if I am Alpha or not but I won't be chasing her that is certain.  I lost respect for her.  Now a healthy woman - you can cry in front of her and you can be yourself.  A healthy woman can handle real emotion without turning it into some sort of power game.
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2014, 08:37:55 PM »

"You're the butcher or you're the cattle"?
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EaglesJuju
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 10:01:06 PM »

Although I am not an Alpha male   , I found that working on my codependency was a result of focusing on my own behavior in the relationship.  I stopped analyzing the behavior of my pwBPD and found what I contributed to our dysfunctionality. I learned that I cannot change his behavior, I can only change my own. 
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"In order to take control of our lives and accomplish something of lasting value, sooner or later we need to Believe. We simply need to believe in the power that is within us, and use it." -Benjamin Hoff
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2014, 10:23:39 PM »

... .with that cruel Narc smirk... .

The smile of a Narc is something so weird and creepy it's hard to ever remove that image from ones mind.

Good for you man. Glad your doing ok. I feel that I learn a lot from reading your posts. I like what you say here about having strength. My ex dumped me but still at the end it was in all actuality because I no longer was putting up with her BS.
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2014, 07:10:37 AM »

... .with that cruel Narc smirk... .

The smile of a Narc is something so weird and creepy it's hard to ever remove that image from ones mind.

Good for you man. Glad your doing ok. I feel that I learn a lot from reading your posts. I like what you say here about having strength. My ex dumped me but still at the end it was in all actuality because I no longer was putting up with her BS.

Man, that smirk... .my ex used to really smile with her teeth exposed when she knew she said something that hurt me during arguments. She loved it when she was able to kick me down.
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jammo1989
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2014, 07:48:11 AM »

Im glad that you find my posts helpful and informative, means a lot! The Narc smirk, can also be described as the smirk provoker.  We must remember that Narcs are all about control, if they cant control in their eyes their worthless.  This is the reason why they put us down and make cruel remarks its merely to provoke a reaction.  When the game isnt being played anymore and you dont react they sense Narcisstic injury, and with this in mind they step it up a gear to try even harder for you to play this game.  For example my ex:

Some guy was hitting on me the othet night

(I smiled back and had flirty banter)

If i had sex with another guy would you be annoyed?

(No negative reaction from me)

Next thing i know she was all over me like a rash!

The smirk is to provoke you, it is used when combined with cruel remarks to strenghen the response of your reaction, this is why we were left so confused because, when a normal  woman is crying her eyes out while saying *dont ever contact me again, cant you see how much youve hurt me?* our closuse would simply be, shes emotinally distraught over the break up she needs a cooling off period.  Where as in the case of the Narc all emotions are hidden behind a fake image.

So why did your ex say never contact me again with a big grin across her face?

She did this because her game wasnt working on you anymore, the control was gone in her eyes which in her eyes now makes you useless Narc Supply.  The smirk on the final discard is the the last tool they have at provoking you to get drawn back in. After this she knows there are no more tools in her arsenal to keep you as Narc or at least back up supply.  It is also important that Narcs hate losing Narc supply, so even if she was with your replacment during this perod, it just goes to show how much work they put into keeping old supply AKA playing these games even during their new relationships.

So if you made it that far to not react even after the final discard, celebrate because you are now whats known as a Narc Slayer.

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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2014, 08:41:44 AM »

So what did i do? I laughed at her, smiled back and said your gonna miss this sexy voice (had banter) she then smiled and said im bored of talking to you know go away, so i said awwww am i to hot for you to handle? and she stormed off, havent spoken to her since 4 months NC.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

So if you made it that far to not react even after the final discard, celebrate because you are now whats known as a Narc Slayer.

How do "we initiate NC and show that we are men, flirt with them, not because we love them, but to show them that we will NOT bow to their bs!" It seems contradictory.

And "not react even after the final discard= Narc Slayer".  What are we slaying?  When someone discards us, they have lost their attraction.  This also seems contradictory.

Respectfully, this seems like tilting at windmills.

There is humiliation in being devalued- it's painful. But the hard truth may be that we stayed when we were being devalued - we accepted it and accepted it, one small step at a time.  We became increasingly clingy.

The lesson I learned in all of this is to read these signs in ourselves earlier and stop.

The hard question is, why we didn't recognize that we are becoming clingy (codependent) and deal with it? Or maybe how do we recognize that we are becoming clingy and deal with it?
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jammo1989
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2014, 09:53:51 AM »

So what did i do? I laughed at her, smiled back and said your gonna miss this sexy voice (had banter) she then smiled and said im bored of talking to you know go away, so i said awwww am i to hot for you to handle? and she stormed off, havent spoken to her since 4 months NC.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

So if you made it that far to not react even after the final discard, celebrate because you are now whats known as a Narc Slayer.

How do "we initiate NC and show that we are men, flirt with them, not because we love them, but to show them that we will NOT bow to their bs!" It seems contradictory.

And "not react even after the final discard= Narc Slayer".  What are we slaying?  When someone discards us, they have lost their attraction.  This also seems contradictory.

This seems like tilting at windmills.

There is humiliation in being devalued- it's painful. But the hard truth may be that we stayed when we were being devalued - we accepted it and accepted it, one small step at a time.  We became increasingly clingy.

The lesson I learned in all of this is to read these signs in ourselves earlier and stop.

The hard question is, why were recognize that we are becoming clingy (codependent) and deal with it?

This post isn't and wasn't about initiating NC, Im basically saying when we are discarded by a Narc it is because we refuse to play their games anymore.  Everything is said and done to provoke a reaction whether positive or negative as a means of control.  I am solely using my experience as a way point to get out of this vicious cycle.  For example, when i stated " show that we are men, flirt with them, not because we love them, but to show them that we will NOT bow to their bs!" I was basically saying, if they text you with some sly remark only to expect a reaction from you,  they are just using another tactic while playing the same game. (read up on game theory) so to change the script they have set out for us we need to react in such a way that they cant respond.  For example:

Her: I am done with you, don't ever contact me again!

Her expected outcome: If he chases me, shows emotion, pleads with me, he may be worth keeping around as a back up supply.  If you do just this... .She WINS!

your reply: Oh don't be like that, you know your going to miss this handsome face (flirty banter)

It shows that she has lost control over you and you win the game, a narc wants to see you beg and plead, because by doing this you are giving them the ego they need to justify their own self worth.

So no, its not contradictory because when faced with a true Narc you have to show that your in control whether you still love them or not, by simply not responding in the way they want you to you are causing them Narcissistic injury, your basically saying "I am not your door mat you should want me not need me when it suits you"  

Furthermore you also quoted that "When someone discards us, they have lost their attraction" In the mind of the Narc we were discarded because we refused to play their games anymore, they were attracted to our co dependency traits and what we could offer them.  This is why you see all these men who wait in line for the same woman they all want to show what they have to offer her.  So I personally believe that with a Narc it has nothing to do with a loss of attraction, it is merely down to refusing to play the game they expect you to.  A true Narc hates losing good Narc supply, so when we are discarded another source of supply must be in place first before they can move on.  So with this in mind, if you truly want to keep the Narc in your life (bad idea) all you would have to do is go into submissive mode, tell them they are amazing, tell them you miss them, tell them that you will always be therefor them.  Now you as supply actually has some worth in her eyes, so in most cases the contact would re initiate and you may be put on the back burner if things with your replacement doesn't work out.  So its not based on an attraction its based on a need to what they want at that moment in time.

I know if i emailed my ex narc now after 4 months i would get a response, and by doing so all id have to do is go into submissive mode, she then senses my weakness to her and she will use that to her advantage later down the line.

Narc slayer, so what are you actually slaying?

Im slaying the one thing that these Narcissists need, Narcissistic Supply, she knows that i was a great supply at one point, thats why she tried so damn hard to keep me in the picture even during my replacement.  I know for a fact that i was the only BF to ever tell her "im done"  this to her implied she had no control over my emotional responses anymore which  then led to the blocking AKA the emotional cut off.  Slaying a Narc is basically justifying the fact that, they have now lost a great source of supply and that they will now have to put the extra work in to find another back up source of supply.      
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2014, 11:59:58 AM »

My Ex BPD dumped me over the phone, she then pushed and pulled me for 2 weeks... //... for about 2 weeks i was getting the the i love you, hate you treatment.  She demanded I met her to get my stuff back, so i could see the pain I had apparently caused.  She was saying things like you look hot, if i wasnt on my peroid id so ___ you right now. (sorry guys)  She gave me a hickey, told me how much she loved me and wouldn't stop kissing me.  I then told her I had things to do back at home and would text her.  She then burst into tears and was like leave me alone i need my space.  She then kissed me and text me an hour later saying thank you for an amazing day Jammo I love you.  :)uring this period she would push/pull ignore my texts, then ring me 2/3 days later saying she missed me.  A week went by and these mind games destroyed me, she kept liking this guys pictures on FB,I had finally had enough of her mind games, so i rang her up and said im done ok, i cant take this any more, but i want us to be mature and be friends... //... 2 days later shes in a relationship with her replacement.  She then blocked me from everything

So was this the narc slaying?

It reads like a pw/BPD struggled/second guessed breaking up with you.  :)efinitely a very messy and dramatic creation on her part with conflicting messages. This was a very weak person.

The breakup, two weeks of emotional spaghetti, and the other guy finally drove you to a breaking point - as it should have - and exiting was smart. Some of us continued on in these quagmires, no doubt.

What was really going on here in her mind is hard to tell.

~ Was she trying to be heard and using all the drama to get you to listen?

~ Was she trying to control you and using all the drama to that end?

~ Was she done and insecure about making the split (wanting you as a backup)?

~ Was she feeling guilty for what she was doing and forcing you?

~ Was this about needing validation - having two men vying for her?

~ or... .

What are your thoughts?
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jammo1989
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2014, 01:08:54 PM »

My Ex BPD dumped me over the phone, she then pushed and pulled me for 2 weeks... //... I had finally had enough of her mind games, so i rang her up and said im done ok, i cant take this any more, but i want us to be mature and be friends... //... 2 days later shes in a relationship with her replacement.  She then blocked me from everything

So was this the narc slaying?

I had spent 2 days with her in person, everything was perfect, incredible sex, cuddled her till she fell asleep, and was told how much she loved me, no negative withdrawal towards me based on body language what so ever, in fact it was the most romantic weekend i had, had with her in months.  I went home the next day, and I had noticed on her FB she was liking a lot of pictures from this guy ( now my replacement)  I called her up and said dont play games with me, I know you like this guy so just admit it, she then said your so insecure its over and hung up.  The push/ pull behavior then started, she begged to see me so that we could return each others belongings.  At first i said no ill drop it off at your friends and she cried and cried saying you dont understand how much you've hut me, you WILL see me because i want you to see what youve done to me.  It was at this point, although still in the fog where i started to fight back emotionally.  I met up with her 2 weeks later after being begged by her, and what ive already explained happened, the testing the games to prove my worth to her.  I showed no reaction, it was then where i started slaying the Narc because i refused to played the games she set up for me.  I left her crying her eyes out saying she needed to be alone, and that she couldn't handle it anymore.  So the games weren't being played and as a result she lost.

She later text me 1st saying thank you for an amazing day, i love you James, i said yeah it was good, then the push/ pull games started again, i got home saw she said good night to this guy again, she later text me saying i cant wait to meet up with you again, maybe we can get through this, because i love you so much.  I left this i text her but she didn't text back go on for another week, then finally, i called her up and said im not playing your mind games anymore im done, i want to be mature about it and be friends though.  She then hung up on me and refused to talk on the phone (wanting me to chase) i said if your not going to answer the phone then lets leave it there. She then picked up and said ok thats fine James, the next day i was blocked on FB and my number was blocked (pulled a fast one on me) the next day i go on this guys FB and he was at hers and now in a relationship with her.  I did not react by emailing her i laughed and said i knew it!

She later realized she had some more stuff at mine, so after 2 weeks of NC i sent her a polite email saying "I have politely asked for you to send my stuff back, I would be extremly grateful if you could.  The lies started instantly, sorry James ive been so busy at work recently.  She wasn't working because she has a 3 year old daughter, she was pro longing it with false information.  We literally sent about 8 emails back and forth, each time saying sorry James ive been so busy,  so in the end she finally emailed saying I will meet you on the weekend k? take care Jam.

The final day came, she was with a mutual guy mate of ours, she was so lovely in her words saying hope your family are ok, my daughter misses you so much, she wont stop asking for you, told me she still went on my FB even though it was blocked and that her and the kids were looking through old pictures of us to.  We were laughing and giggling, flirting while her new bf was at home.  I never once reacted to her words, she then stepped up the game by becoming cruel towards me, saying things like, life's looking a bit crap for you now, im working and your not, then came the Narc smirk along with you stopped me getting on with my life  because you were up every weekend.  She wasn't working, had no education, no car nothing, so i laughed and said something like "what a babe". Then finally the narc smile came out one last time along with now you have your stuff back you have no reason to ever contact me again, she grinned, smirked It  was the same face i experienced when we started getting close at the beginning of the relationship (flirty).  I then laughed and kept up the banter, then she said im bored of talking to you now go away!

So why am i telling my story in greater detail?

Because, I was completely in line and in control with my emotions ever since i told her on the phone that im done.  I put a stop to it, not her because, she wanted to meet up with me again, but i could see the new guy coming before it even happened.  The slaying of the Narc is becoming indifferent, not playing the games, and cutting off a good source of their supply.  When i started acting like an alpha male and not reacting she even told me, I feel like a piece of ___ next to you. I was causing Narcissistic injury and in return my punishment was the emotional cut off.  So yes i did slay the Narc because in the end she began to chase me, but I was the one to finally put a stop to all the crazy making.  

I will never truly understand her motives, but I think its safe to say with the information I now know it would seem apparent to me that she was most definitely NPD/BPD.  Towards the very end she told me she had thoughts of getting hit by a car and that she had started to go to therapy, and her therapist told her you shouldn't be in a relationship right now, but she got with this new guy 3 weeks later, so was this all a fabricated lie about therapy, or was she really feeling that emotionally destroyed that she had to do something to ease the pain, I see the new guy as a convenience not a bf because if he was taken it would have been someone else.  All i know is that, this forum has helped me so much, and although i dont claim to be an expert, I share my experiences to help those in need, Thanks for your response SKIP!              
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2014, 01:15:31 PM »

Jammo,

can I respectfully say to you that it sounds like you're preaching to play the game back with the pwBPD/NPD. Shouldn't the goal be to get out of the game business and get into the Truth and Reality business?

Like EaglesJuju said,
Excerpt
I found that working on my codependency was a result of focusing on my own behavior in the relationship.

We need to work on ourselves, not play games with the ex partner. We need to become the best "us" we can be, and we'll never get there by joining in their disordered games.

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM »

Jammo,

can I respectfully say to you that it sounds like you're preaching to play the game back with the pwBPD/NPD. Shouldn't the goal be to get out of the game business and get into the Truth and Reality business?

Like EaglesJuju said,
Excerpt
I found that working on my codependency was a result of focusing on my own behavior in the relationship.

We need to work on ourselves, not play games with the ex partner. We need to become the best "us" we can be, and we'll never get there by joining in their disordered games.

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.

I completely agree with what your saying here, I think what Im feeling and experiencing is different to others, this is solely because Im finally out of the fog where as others are still finding their way out of it.  I agree, playing games is dangerous and extremely stupid, because i felt as if i was dealing with an NPD I couldn't let her see or know that i was emotionally hurt by her actions, so with that in mind i felt as if i had to act indifferent in order to take her ego down a few notches (not answering to her) The more a true Narcs sees you in pain the more they will try to hurt you, so when i say about playing the game it is almost me saying "If the Narc senses you are not hurt by his/ her actions then they will move on to the next.  So yeah, sorry for my misinterpretation about playing the game.     
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2014, 01:46:53 PM »

AH--gotcha!

I've had to become so much more benign in my responses to my Alpha Male uBPDh--I just have to answer in a very neutral tone if I answer at all. BOY that has been hard! I fall so easily into The Familiar at times, since our marriage was so long and we share kids and grandkids and memories. But then ten minutes later he's trying to cut me off at the knees via text. So I have to even avoid The Familiar with him.

I guess my concern in your post was that if you are showing how you have dealt with your ex by showing she couldn't hurt you and you did that with flirtation and such, it's sending a bad message for others on the path to healing. I understand now why you did the things you did to put her off, disengaging tends to be more of a neutral response to our exes than when we are actually "playing along" in a way. I found that gave my h the really wrong message--he would interpret it as he was winning me back over. OH NO NO, that's not gonna happen! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 01:57:06 PM »

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.

My dBPDexbf is big into the Alpha Male stuff, too, and I agree.

Rather than looking at relationships as a power struggle, it helps to reframe and see what we can do to feel more confident about what we realistically can control (ourselves). Setting and maintaining firm boundaries is a big part of this. When we are protecting ourselves with impermeable boundaries, we feel much more secure.

What boundaries do you have in place, or think might help you?
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2014, 02:18:37 PM »

AH--gotcha!

I've had to become so much more benign in my responses to my Alpha Male uBPDh--I just have to answer in a very neutral tone if I answer at all. BOY that has been hard! I fall so easily into The Familiar at times, since our marriage was so long and we share kids and grandkids and memories. But then ten minutes later he's trying to cut me off at the knees via text. So I have to even avoid The Familiar with him.

I guess my concern in your post was that if you are showing how you have dealt with your ex by showing she couldn't hurt you and you did that with flirtation and such, it's sending a bad message for others on the path to healing. I understand now why you did the things you did to put her off, disengaging tends to be more of a neutral response to our exes than when we are actually "playing along" in a way. I found that gave my h the really wrong message--he would interpret it as he was winning me back over. OH NO NO, that's not gonna happen! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

AH--gotcha!

I've had to become so much more benign in my responses to my Alpha Male uBPDh--I just have to answer in a very neutral tone if I answer at all. BOY that has been hard! I fall so easily into The Familiar at times, since our marriage was so long and we share kids and grandkids and memories. But then ten minutes later he's trying to cut me off at the knees via text. So I have to even avoid The Familiar with him.

I guess my concern in your post was that if you are showing how you have dealt with your ex by showing she couldn't hurt you and you did that with flirtation and such, it's sending a bad message for others on the path to healing. I understand now why you did the things you did to put her off, disengaging tends to be more of a neutral response to our exes than when we are actually "playing along" in a way. I found that gave my h the really wrong message--he would interpret it as he was winning me back over. OH NO NO, that's not gonna happen! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

The thing is, Narcs especially are all about winning, they get their pleasure through the use of manipulation and with this comes provoking others in order to claim a more often than not negative response to a situation.  We should never play games with these cold, calculated individuals, but what we must do is, not let them see us a a new toy to play with, and discard after it has been broken.  What I am trying to preach though is this, Narcs attach to co dependents because they see the good will in us knowing full well there will be a gain from this in some way, shape or form.  And i strongly feel the need to protect others against these kinds of interactions.  So by implementing flirty behavior I do not mean having a conversation of a sexual nature or making plans like meeting up, it is to solely trick the NPD that we are now immune to the stupid games they play.  For example:

Them:  If you dont do as i ask, you will feel the pain from my silence

US when still in the FOG: Why are you being so horrible towards me? you know i love you! (Extremely weak boundaries)

US when we are out of the FOG: Yeah that would be great, i need a break from your annoying voice  (Strong boundaries)

This is what I was trying to get at, if we show them that they don't have this type of control over us anymore, we weaken them and just like a predator in the wild, when an animal puts up to much of a fight, eventually the attacker will let go (leave us alone)        
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2014, 02:33:14 PM »

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.

My dBPDexbf is big into the Alpha Male stuff, too, and I agree.

Rather than looking at relationships as a power struggle, it helps to reframe and see what we can do to feel more confident about what we realistically can control (ourselves). Setting and maintaining firm boundaries is a big part of this. When we are protecting ourselves with impermeable boundaries, we feel much more secure.

What boundaries do you have in place, or think might help you?

My boundaries are that, even though I haven't and will probably never speak to her again,  I am and always above the ex that I dated, In all honesty I feel almost a Narc myself towards her, and no im not a Narc because i have more empathy than a lot of people.  What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned.  So, if she does to one day return not only will I look down on her, but i will also clarify the fact that shes not worthy of a guy of my standards.  Call me a horrible person for thinking this, but at the end of the day when you have been used and discarded by someone, you don't seek revenge, but what you do, do is, rectify the fact that the person you were with will never compare to you, and with that in mind its all about that alpha male mind set.

I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?   
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2014, 02:40:24 PM »

it is to solely trick the NPD      

Doesn't that put us "in the game" with them?

Personally I don't want to be in an adversarial relationship anymore, and I don't want to be an adversarial person or a game playing person--all that takes too much of my precious energy!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

What I seek is The Truth of the Matter, because that leads to healing. The Truth for me says I need to stop reacting in the old ways that kept me in the game, whichever side I might be playing. Like all the years I lived a lie simply to get along and keep my marriage together while knowing that I was dying inside and losing myself by being In The Game. Now the Truth of my situation says I need to back away and take care of myself.

I don't think it feels like a game to you, that's my sense. Yet to me when we do something that manipulates the outcome in some way, we are still in the game. The desire for healing leads me to less response to my uBPDh's games (which are always on) because my focus is turning toward my own well-being.

I do see what you're getting at by your responses and maneuvers, honestly I do. I can see that you're trying to prove a point to your ex by your actions. When we quit trying to prove anything to our exes and start simply taking care of ourselves is when we will heal. And we're all on that path, and i'm just sharing what I've learned from my therapist and my relationship in this detaching process.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

I would love to see you do some more thinking about the Alpha Male thing--if you feel you are Better Than Others you won't be capable of a reciprocal relationship. And that's what a healthy relationship will be--reciprocal, not One-Upping your partner. I'm old, I know stuff,
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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2014, 02:45:51 PM »

My boundaries are that, even though I haven't and will probably never speak to her again,  I am and always above the ex that I dated, In all honesty I feel almost a Narc myself towards her, and no im not a Narc because i have more empathy than a lot of people.  What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned.  So, if she does to one day return not only will I look down on her, but i will also clarify the fact that shes not worthy of a guy of my standards.  Call me a horrible person for thinking this, but at the end of the day when you have been used and discarded by someone, you don't seek revenge, but what you do, do is, rectify the fact that the person you were with will never compare to you, and with that in mind its all about that alpha male mind set.



I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?   

I am confused how having an "Alpha" mindset is synonymous to breaking co-dependency? 

How does this statement So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?    help with people recognizing their own contributions to their relationship and breaking codependency?
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2014, 02:54:57 PM »

it is to solely trick the NPD      

Doesn't that put us "in the game" with them?

Personally I don't want to be in an adversarial relationship anymore, and I don't want to be an adversarial person or a game playing person--all that takes too much of my precious energy!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

What I seek is The Truth of the Matter, because that leads to healing. The Truth for me says I need to stop reacting in the old ways that kept me in the game, whichever side I might be playing. Like all the years I lived a lie simply to get along and keep my marriage together while knowing that I was dying inside and losing myself by being In The Game. Now the Truth of my situation says I need to back away and take care of myself.

I don't think it feels like a game to you, that's my sense. Yet to me when we do something that manipulates the outcome in some way, we are still in the game. The desire for healing leads me to less response to my uBPDh's games (which are always on) because my focus is turning toward my own well-being.

I do see what you're getting at by your responses and maneuvers, honestly I do. I can see that you're trying to prove a point to your ex by your actions. When we quit trying to prove anything to our exes and start simply taking care of ourselves is when we will heal. And we're all on that path, and i'm just sharing what I've learned from my therapist and my relationship in this detaching process.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

I would love to see you do some more thinking about the Alpha Male thing--if you feel you are Better Than Others you won't be capable of a reciprocal relationship. And that's what a healthy relationship will be--reciprocal, not One-Upping your partner. I'm old, I know stuff,

Im not a full time alpha male (probably doesnt even make sense Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) I have suffered from depression and anxiety in the past, and I said to myself I will not let this person trigger them unhealthy responses from me, so by me looking down on her, and just her it makes me feel superior to her, and no im not playing a stupid game because im now 4 months NC, we all need to look at the positives in US and use these to our advantage.  We have 2 outcomes of coming out of a relationship with a cluster B:

Become severely depressed, while there looking down on our emotional pain, or look back and think to myself wow i was a right catch for her, I took her from a life of being poor to a life of doing what she wants when she wants, must have spent over £10,000 on her over my 2 month relationship, what an idiot I was, am i going to dwell on it, or am i going to say to myself ha ha have fun in your poor pathetic life.

The problem I had and others will do as well is the fact that, we put so much emotion into our relationships and we are left destroyed, while we are traumatized they are out living their lives like nothing ever happened, we can not and must not let these people tamper with out negative emotions.  I am a seriously caring person my empathy for others is incredibly high, but when someone over steps their boundaries that is when I feel its perfectly acceptable to look down on them if that means to protect our own emotions.  For example, instead of texting my ex saying saying i love you (making myself look weak) id rather her contact me and i can simply reply with what makes you think you were ever worthy of my good will let alone life style?  
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2014, 03:04:30 PM »

My boundaries are that, even though I haven't and will probably never speak to her again,  I am and always above the ex that I dated, In all honesty I feel almost a Narc myself towards her, and no im not a Narc because i have more empathy than a lot of people.  What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned.  So, if she does to one day return not only will I look down on her, but i will also clarify the fact that shes not worthy of a guy of my standards.  Call me a horrible person for thinking this, but at the end of the day when you have been used and discarded by someone, you don't seek revenge, but what you do, do is, rectify the fact that the person you were with will never compare to you, and with that in mind its all about that alpha male mind set.



I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?  

I am confused how having an "Alpha" mindset is synonymous to breaking co-dependency?  

How does this statement So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?   help with people recognizing their own contributions to their relationship and breaking codependency?

Co dependency is simply putting others needs before your own, and we are dealing with individuals that lacks them very emotions, so with this in mind we give 100% and get nothing back, and with this comes frustration and an extreme feeling of low self worth because what ever we do is not good enough in the mind of a Cluster B.  And eventually the co dependent starts to blame themselves for not doing enough to cater for the other persons needs, and a lot of the time we are left depressed because, we put so much emotion into an individual or relationship that was completely one sided.  So like i stated before, do I become severely depressed with the feelings of not being good enough, or do I say to myself you will NOT trigger my depression and by using your own strengths and attributes you will find that these people can not and will not be the gate way to our emotional pain.  You have to remember im solely talking about my own personal experience with a Narc here, so by saying to myself im better than this person justifies the fact that she will not be the cause of my negative emotions.            
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2014, 03:05:22 PM »

Hey jammo,

What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned. 

What was the attraction in the first place?  This is looking down on her, yes?

I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

In my opinion, ^^this^^ is an "attitude".  If this is the attitude you projected to her, while you were with her, it might've been a big turn-off.  It doesn't show strength, jammo-- it feels to me like insecurity; that's the vibe I'm getting.

You've mentioned that your family is wealthy.  Have you found your own wealth away from your family?

why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?    

Society?  Your ex offers nothing in the eyes of society.  Ew, it feels weird even typing that.  I don't agree, jammo.  I agree with Elpis:

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

Is there something else going on other than this breakup?  Are your family relationships okay?

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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2014, 03:08:04 PM »

An even healthier way to look at it is that what our ex did to us is of no interest anymore because we're moving forward in our lives.

I wonder if what you mean when you say "Alpha Male" is really more the simple fact that you are trying to take control back in your own life and not be shattered and affected by what your ex has done? I've long dealt with anxiety and depression myself, and I get healthier and less depressed as I work toward being my best self and not concerning myself with my uBPDh's shenanigans. (and yes, I used the word "shenanigans." Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) )

Alpha Male does give the idea of someone who feels they're better than me simply because they have more/do more in their eyes. That's my uBPDh. He needs to see me as Lesser in order to feel better about himself. He needs to tell me that he's "paid for (my) life for a long time now" in reference to the fact that I've spent the past 38 years raising his daughter from a previous marriage, taking care of the rest of our children and the house and shopping/cleaning/cooking... .He must Be Superior to me. That's not healthy. We serve ourselves better when we become our most balanced self and can recognize the positive and negative in ourselves without beating ourselves up or puffing ourselves up.

Superiority does not lend itself well to a positive and healthy relationship, something I think we all want after what we've been through.

I do wonder with 123Phoebe whether there is more going on than the breakup, there's a lot of passion behind your stance about your ex.
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2014, 03:13:43 PM »

Co dependency is simply putting others needs before your own, and we are dealing with individuals that lacks them very emotions, so with this in mind we give 100% and get nothing back, and with this comes frustration and an extreme feeling of low self worth because what ever we do is not good enough in the mind of a Cluster B.  And eventually the co dependent starts to blame themselves for not doing enough to cater for the other persons needs, and a lot of the time we are left depressed because, we put so much emotion into an individual or relationship that was completely one sided.  So like i stated before, do I become severely depressed with the feelings of not being good enough, or do I say to myself you will NOT trigger my depression and by using your own strengths and attributes you will find that these people can not and will not be the gate way to our emotional pain.  You have to remember im solely talking about my own personal experience with a Narc here, so by saying to myself im better than this person justifies the fact that she will not be the cause of my negative emotions.            

Why do codependents put themselves before others?  What are the underlying reasons?  Why do codependents get into relationships with disordered people? Why do codependents let disordered people walk all over them?  Why do codependents constantly give with getting very little back? I can easily shift all the blame to myBPD but, does that truly help me with my own problems?

I think these are the important questions to ask ourselves if we are codependent. 
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2014, 03:15:34 PM »

... .must have spent over £10,000 on her over my 2 month relationship, what an idiot I was, am i going to dwell on it, or am i going to say to myself ha ha have fun in your poor pathetic life.

The problem I had and others will do as well is the fact that, we put so much emotion into our relationships and we are left destroyed... .

Your relationship was 60 days?
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2014, 03:28:32 PM »

An even healthier way to look at it is that what our ex did to us is of no interest anymore because we're moving forward in our lives.

I wonder if what you mean when you say "Alpha Male" is really more the simple fact that you are trying to take control back in your own life and not be shattered and affected by what your ex has done? I've long dealt with anxiety and depression myself, and I get healthier and less depressed as I work toward being my best self and not concerning myself with my uBPDh's shenanigans. (and yes, I used the word "shenanigans." Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) )

Alpha Male does give the idea of someone who feels they're better than me simply because they have more/do more in their eyes. That's my uBPDh. He needs to see me as Lesser in order to feel better about himself. He needs to tell me that he's "paid for (my) life for a long time now" in reference to the fact that I've spent the past 38 years raising his daughter from a previous marriage, taking care of the rest of our children and the house and shopping/cleaning/cooking... .He must Be Superior to me. That's not healthy. We serve ourselves better when we become our most balanced self and can recognize the positive and negative in ourselves without beating ourselves up or puffing ourselves up.

yeah the Alpha male mind set is solely what you described, to protect my self from depression, because If i made myself believe half the things she told me in her cruel out bursts then i would be suffering with the depression, for example, she once said to me i hate your mum for giving birth to you, and that was literally an out of no where action, she also told me

Superiority does not lend itself well to a positive and healthy relationship, something I think we all want after what we've been through.

I do wonder with 123Phoebe whether there is more going on than the breakup, there's a lot of passion behind your stance about your ex.

yeah the Alpha male mind set is solely what you described, to protect my self from depression, because If i made myself believe half the things she told me in her cruel out bursts then i would be suffering with the depression, for example, she once said to me i hate your mum for giving birth to you, and that was literally an out of no where action, she also told me that she had better looking boy mates while we were cuddling in bed.  I do have a lot of emotion in what i write its not anger or depression, its a strong feeling of wanting to help others on this site, i hate seeing people with posts about being so confused because like you I was there.  Maybe I can be insecure your right, she had 2 little kids a 6 year old boy and a 3 year old boy, and i kid you not i changed my whole life for her and the kids at one point i was working 7 days a week taking home around £2000 a month because I was determined to save up for a mortgage because even now I want the best for those 2 children, i know they arent mine, but the bond I had with the 3 year old was so strong.  I saved and saved, promised and made sure the kids were spoiled at times, I brought them an Ipad a 20 Ft trampoline, computer games, why? because I could see that they were struggling, so yeah I am extremely Co dependent, and what does my ex go and do, she manipulates her 6 year old to hate me,  my ex was crying once and it was because i told her i cant have a baby with her right now, and her son asked her why are you? and her response "James makes me cry he hurts mummy* 2 weeks pier to this he was jumping up and down with excitement telling his teacher that he couldnt wait to see me.  So yeah, She did crush me, maybe i loved the kids and seeing them smile more than I did her, but with all the horrible things she had said and done do you blame me?  So what is the problem I still have?

The fact that i met her children a year after she cheated and broke it off with her husband, the kids got used to me and loved me for around 10 months.  A month after seeing me a new man is openly sleeping in her bed, her daughter was still asking for me at this point, why destroy the mind of a child? Shes going to grow up thinking to either not trust men opr think its ok to sleep with loads of men.    
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2014, 03:28:57 PM »

... .must have spent over £10,000 on her over my 2 month relationship, what an idiot I was, am i going to dwell on it, or am i going to say to myself ha ha have fun in your poor pathetic life.

The problem I had and others will do as well is the fact that, we put so much emotion into our relationships and we are left destroyed... .

Your relationship was 60 days?

2 years sorry
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2014, 03:39:17 PM »

Hey jammo,

What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned. 

What was the attraction in the first place?  This is looking down on her, yes?

I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

In my opinion, ^^this^^ is an "attitude".  If this is the attitude you projected to her, while you were with her, it might've been a big turn-off.  It doesn't show strength, jammo-- it feels to me like insecurity; that's the vibe I'm getting.

You've mentioned that your family is wealthy.  Have you found your own wealth away from your family?

why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?    

Society?  Your ex offers nothing in the eyes of society.  Ew, it feels weird even typing that.  I don't agree, jammo.  I agree with Elpis:

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

Is there something else going on other than this breakup?  Are your family relationships okay?

I have a very strong relationship with family, and like i stated before i gave myself this mind set to protect me from my own depression, i dont look down on others, but when someone tries to hurt you you have to think and express your attributes to avoid the negative emotion, she had a great catch and she threw it away.  My only problem now is letting go of the fact that her children are not mine and in that respect none of my business anymore.  I think the reason why I feel strongly about all of this is because, even though  im out of the fog, I still fail to understand even with the disorder, why would someone not only manipulate their own children but to also enforce the fact that her children resent me to, considering how close and what I did for those 3.   
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2014, 10:24:19 PM »

Jammo, I'll have to agree. People with BPD pretty much do leave a trail of destruction. The jobless rate among these people is upwards of 50 percent. I'm a business owner, and I couldn't even make understand simple cold calls to help me out. Since she left my business has grown to being a pretty big business. All this talk of Co dependency, has anyone stopped and thought well, I only tried helping this person out that is my bad. This is only time I've ever been with a disordered person and hopefully the last time. I want revenge but honestly I'm hitting the anger stage of my healing and I just want this to be over. Just stay away from her.
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