Lack of intimacy for the non... part 2.

[bobcat2014]

Thank you for all of the discussion regarding my previous thread on the non intimate marriage.

As we discussed, intimacy is very difficult to find in my marriage and most BPD relationships... .and I wondered how others dealt with this. Like most nons, I feel rejected when I am turned down and take it personally. This has been a struggle for me and it is tough for me to sympathise with the list of excuses, reasons and rejection. In contrast, when my wife left the marriage years ago, I learned of all the "things" she had done with the piece of trash she left me for. The guy took hidden video and shared it with a coworker who knew who I was and respected me enough to tell me. I wish this board existed back then. Case in point, she was much more intimate and exposed with him than she ever was with me. I dont get it.

I know we have to throw away logic when understanding BPD, but it becomes so hard to move past old wounds without much intimacy.

What is the most usefull approach you rely on to get your intimacy needs fulfilled? I understand this question is very personal to many.

Thank you my friends... .

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[Infern0]

Thank you for all of the discussion regarding my previous thread on the non intimate marriage.

As we discussed, intimacy is very difficult to find in my marriage and most BPD relationships... .and I wondered how others dealt with this. Like most nons, I feel rejected when I am turned down and take it personally. This has been a struggle for me and it is tough for me to sympathise with the list of excuses, reasons and rejection. In contrast, when my wife left the marriage years ago, I learned of all the "things" she had done with the piece of trash she left me for. The guy took hidden video and shared it with a coworker who knew who I was and respected me enough to tell me. I wish this board existed back then. Case in point, she was much more intimate and exposed with him than she ever was with me. I dont get it.

I know we have to throw away logic when understanding BPD, but it becomes so hard to move past old wounds without much intimacy.

What is the most usefull approach you rely on to get your intimacy needs fulfilled? I understand this question is very personal to many.

Thank you my friends... .

Although I wasn't married to mine she would try and do the witholding thing with me but at the time I didn't know she was BPD and I did find a way round it.

What worked for me was that I seduced her,  I never begged for sex or anything I just used to become very seductive and playful with her. Also,  and this is potentially dangerous but I would "act" slightly forceful.

Example one time she said she wasn't feeling it and it was the second time so I pushed her against the wall (not hard) and whispered something like "you know you want it" and her eyes changed and it was all on.

I had to do a lot of this kind of thing but the other half of the time she would initiate. 

So that's my advice is to be playful and if you are the male a little bit dominant,  a little bit of a predator,  mine liked it.  Just keep it at acceptable levels and don't over force it.

[bobcat2014]

Inferno,

Exactly what I was asking.

Do you feel manipulative when you set this up? No judgement here as I think the same way in terms of seduction.

[Crumbling]

Here's a woman's perspective:  Know your lady well before you try this. 

She may bolt.  She may be insulted that you haven't validated her feelings in the matter.  She may dysregulate if she feels out of control. She may be triggered into negativity in an instant.  It would take a long time to heal from this, if this is her reaction.

That being said, I can see where being persistence can play in your favour.  Think about a kid wanting something.  You know they really want it when the nag, mention it often, freak out even.  I'm not saying act this way, I'm just saying the more persistent you are, the more she will realize how important it is for you, and may take that as confirmation of your love for her and melt.  Know what makes her hum, and offer her that.  Ask her what you can do to put her in the mood.  Tell her using specifics what you want to do to her.  This more gentle approach may be the answer if she isn't into that dominance stuff.

Hence, know your lady. 

Have you thought about discussing her affair and point blank asking her why she would be so 'giving' to a stranger, and so distant with you?  Sounds like a touchy subject, but getting that stuff out of the way, and all the emotion around it, may help your r/s more than any 'technique' you employ. 

If it makes you feel manipulative to set things up a certain way, you are adding extra negative emotions into the mix, and may be a sign that it perhaps isn't the best approach to take.  It's hard to get intimacy by manipulation - maybe impossible.

Hope this helps,

Merry Christmas,

c. 

[123Phoebe]

Hence, know your lady. 

Also, know your lady outside of the bedroom, or the wall or wherever you'd like to get some

Intimacy (for me anyway), starts WAY outside of the actual act of intercourse.  If I don't feel connected on an emotional level, sex is just that... .sex.  I feel that sex is moody... .

There is an entire range of emotions.

Having a crappy-a$$ day?  A quickie might be just what the doctor ordered.

Really feeling the love?  Ooo la la... .

Having fun out on the town, feeling all sexy?  Bring it!

For my partner and I, sex is an extension of what is going on in our lives.  Sometimes a look is all it takes.  Other times, we're just not in the mood.  Or maybe I am and he's not, or he is and I'm not.  We'll connect when we're in the mood!

[startrekuser]

I want to contribute to this board.  I used to be very direct with my BPDw and tell her my needs and she basically ignored my needs saying I disgust her or she can't trust me or stuff like that.   So, it's humiliating for a man to keep asking.  We're Orthodox Jewish and each month after that time of the month, she needs to go the mikveh (ritual bath) before we can touch each other.  So she stopped going to the mikveh for the last few months and I don't touch her, so now she's accusing me of not wanting to touch her.  I won't say anything about her not going to the mikveh because she'll just blame me, which is a dagger in my heart after being blamed for our problems SO MANY TIMES.  So I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[bobcat2014]

I want to contribute to this board.  I used to be very direct with my BPDw and tell her my needs and she basically ignored my needs saying I disgust her or she can't trust me or stuff like that.   So, it's humiliating for a man to keep asking.  We're Orthodox Jewish and each month after that time of the month, she needs to go the mikveh (ritual bath) before we can touch each other.  So she stopped going to the mikveh for the last few months and I don't touch her, so now she's accusing me of not wanting to touch her.  I won't say anything about her not going to the mikveh because she'll just blame me, which is a dagger in my heart after being blamed for our problems SO MANY TIMES.  So I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Startrek,

Yes... .

I hear you. My wife always has somekind of female problem and keeps me posted daily on when period time is, in an attempt to avoid intimacy. She is relieved when she gets a free pass with an excuse besides her just saying no.

Lets be clear with my post. I am not only interested in my need of sex. I know this rant kind of sounds that way, its not. I miss closeness and feel lonely. She always includes a triangulation of somekind or a distraction whether is be her part time job, extended family, new pet, others problems, weather, global warming. It is always something to distract and excuse her reasons for ignoring me. Frankly I am sick of feeling 3 or 4 down on her priority list.

[Cole]

Lets be clear with my post. I am not only interested in my need of sex. I know this rant kind of sounds that way, its not. I miss closeness and feel lonely. She always includes a triangulation of somekind or a distraction whether is be her part time job, extended family, new pet, others problems, weather, global warming. It is always something to distract and excuse her reasons for ignoring me. Frankly I am sick of feeling 3 or 4 down on her priority list.

No judgement here, I feel the same way you do. We went from an incredible sex life to none. Her excuse is that she wants to feel an emotional connection first, but then throws things in the way to prevent it.

She will talk about how good looking I am and how good we are together in bed. She will tease and flirt. But in the end she pushes me away and rejects me. I now ignore the flirtation because it is just a power thing for her to get me interested then turn me down.  

Agree with you on feeling like I am 3 or 4 down on the priorities. I am less important to her than someone from high school who she reconnected with on Facebook (FB + BPD = damaged marriage), but she wants me to make her my #1  priority.  

[bobcat2014]

Cole,

I get the exact same thing with teasing, flirting,etc. Its just a game to feel in control and feed the narcissitic supply they need. When you finally start to see the cycle it makes you sick to know you are little more than an object.

I am tired of apologizing for everything I do or dont do. It will never be the right time, we will never have enough money, it is always bad news when I get split black. Its exhausting.

[Cole]

Cole,

I get the exact same thing with teasing, flirting,etc. Its just a game to feel in control and feed the narcissitic supply they need. When you finally start to see the cycle it makes you sick to know you are little more than an object.

I am tired of apologizing for everything I do or dont do. It will never be the right time, we will never have enough money, it is always bad news when I get split black. Its exhausting.

After a long talk about it yesterday, I think in my wife's case it is a different reason. She lost her virginity young and slept with a lot of men before we met. She has major regrets about her past and is having problems actually being intimate. She wants to, but feels like a slut if she does.

Make sense? Only to a pwBPD! This is a typical BPD all-or-nothing reaction; she hates having been promiscuous in her younger days, so now she will not sleep with her own husband of 16 years.

Good news is she recognizes it. Last night she told me her P is out until the 5th and cannot wait to call her for some help finding a new T or to possibly arrange a short in-patient. I want my wife back, not just in the bedroom, but in all aspects. Hope this is a step she will follow through with.            

[formflier]

I  I won't say anything about her not going to the mikveh because she'll just blame me, which is a dagger in my heart after being blamed for our problems SO MANY TIMES.  So I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Hey... .can you give us some word by word of how this happens?  I think we might be able to make this better for you.

Plus... if you are really not at fault for her not going... .then why worry about it?  What would happen if you stopped accepting blame... .or reacting to being blamed... .

[vortex of confusion]

Lets be clear with my post. I am not only interested in my need of sex. I know this rant kind of sounds that way, its not. I miss closeness and feel lonely. She always includes a triangulation of somekind or a distraction whether is be her part time job, extended family, new pet, others problems, weather, global warming. It is always something to distract and excuse her reasons for ignoring me. Frankly I am sick of feeling 3 or 4 down on her priority list.

For me, it is feeling like an afterthought that leads to lack of all kinds of intimacy (physical, emotional, etc). I try to find little ways for us to spend time together because we have 4 kids. Most recently, I asked him to help me do some online Christmas shopping for the kids. When I would ask, he would say we could do it later because he was tired or time got away from him. I ended up doing it all myself because I wanted to make sure that everything shipped in time. I used to try to push the physical parts but found that without the emotional parts, the physical was unsatisfying and left me feeling even more empty and alone.

[startrekuser]

I  I won't say anything about her not going to the mikveh because she'll just blame me, which is a dagger in my heart after being blamed for our problems SO MANY TIMES.  So I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Hey... .can you give us some word by word of how this happens?  I think we might be able to make this better for you.

Plus... if you are really not at fault for her not going... .then why worry about it?  What would happen if you stopped accepting blame... .or reacting to being blamed... .

The problem is that I react to blame.  She'll say, well you did this or you did that, etc, so I can't trust you... .

I don't know what to say to that.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

[formflier]

The problem is that I react to blame.  She'll say, well you did this or you did that, etc, so I can't trust you... .

I don't know what to say to that.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

You have identified the problem... .  Most likely she wants the reaction... .if you stop giving it to her... .she will have to change tactics.

So... .  why say anything at all? 

Or... ."honey... .do you want a response... .or just want me to listen to your feelings... ."

... "it's frustrating feeling that you can't trust people... "

[Cole]

This is such a frustrating topic. A frustrating and angering topic. Yesterday it made me do two things I never do.

We used to have a great sex life. Now it is rare. Yesterday I brought up the fact we were intimate only 4 times in all of 2014, the last having been in July. She told me she does not think she will ever want to have sex again because she was promiscuous before we met and now feels ashamed to have sex anymore, even with me, her husband of 16 years. Very frustrating, especially since she will flirt with me and talk about how good our sex life used to be, but will not actually have sex.

She did not feel good and went up to take a nap. I sat there and thought of my options:

1) Stay in a sexless marriage? Pretty hard, I have a really strong sex drive. And my wife is incredibly attractive, so living with her and being close to her but not getting to be with her is really frustrating.  

2) Leave the marriage? We have 2 young children, one of whom is autistic and really needs an intact family. And I still love my wife beyond reason despite all her faults.  

3) Go outside the marriage? I have had several offers, but always turn them down and remove myself from any situation where I may be tempted. Even if she never found out, I would always know. Besides, that would just be sex. What I want is an emotional and physical connection with my wife.

Why am I so angry? Because yesterday I almost called a business associate who has made it very clear she will meet me at a hotel any time I want. The number was up on the phone, I had decided where to meet her and had an excuse to leave the house all concocted. But I did not make the call.

I am angry at myself for contemplating this after being faithful for 16 years. And I am angry at myself for getting drunk afterwards to deal with it. (Yes, I know, never drink to try to deal with a problem. This is the first, and hopefully last, time for that.)

I am tired of being angry, tired of being frustrated. This disease is starting to affect me as much as it does her.  

[formflier]

 

Cole,

Just a thought... .

Don't focus on the act... .focus on "being intimate... ."

So... .when she goes up to take a nap... .take some lotion and rub her shoulders... .rub her back.

Get used to physical touch again... .

When she is on couch... flop down and put your head in her lap... .just hand out and talk...

OK... .to be clear... .I'm a guy... .and I don't get women.  I do get that they don't speak our language.  Toss in BPD traits... .and wow... .


What I do know is that for women... .intimacy is not a straightforward thing... .there are lots more feelings involved.  Lots more intricate.

No attempt to be crass here... .but... .for me... .sometimes I can touch my wife... .find her standing a certain way... .looking a certain way... .and I'm ready.  I'm blessed to have a wife that... .most of the time... .humors me when I want to "jump her bones" without any of that romantic stuff... .(note to women... .don't hate me!... .but that is the way I think).

There are times when I do really feel  romantic and "get into" all that lovey dovey stuff... .  Many times I do that romantic and lovey dovey stuff not because I feel like it... .but because I know that my wife enjoys it. 

If you are into love languages... .she is a touch person.  I'm an act of service person... .  Both of us are pretty extreme... .high scoring that those are our languages.

Anyway... .why did I type all this.

Only to say that you didn't get into this "rut" overnight... .and you are not going to get out of it overnight either.

You have to start somewhere... .and regular... .gentle... .non-sexual... .physical contact would seem to be a good place to start. 

If that doesn't work... .we'll try something else.

I would not engage her about her reasons... .you are not her therapist... .don't invalidate the reasons... .just don't engage or dwell on them... .don't react negatively.

I hope this helps

Good job fighting temptation... .it's hard!

 

[Cole]

You have to start somewhere... .and regular... .gentle... .non-sexual... .physical contact would seem to be a good place to start.

Good job fighting temptation... .it's hard!

Thanks for understanding, ff.

The non sexual contact has never stopped. I rub her feet when they hurt, her shoulders when she is stressed. She does the same for me. But the second it looks like it will go further she gets up and walks off. This just leaves me more confused, very frustrated, and eventually, angry and resentful.

Never been tempted before yesterday. I guess that is why I am so messed up about it.    

[Cole]

I would not engage her about her reasons... .you are not her therapist... .don't invalidate the reasons... .just don't engage or dwell on them... .don't react negatively.

And yes, I validated her, something I would not have done before; something I learned in the past few weeks since joining this site, reading the material, and learning from all you folks who are going through many of the same issues.

[formflier]

[

The non sexual contact has never stopped. I rub her feet when they hurt, her shoulders when she is stressed. She does the same for me. 

Good... .then double it.

Then get to the point of massaging her when naked... .or half naked... .etc etc...

[formflier]

And yes, I validated her, something I would not have done before; something I learned in the past few weeks since joining this site, reading the material, and learning from all you folks who are going through many of the same issues.

Good... .the results of this validation take a while to "build up"... .keep at it

[Crumbling]

Bravo, Cole!  You done good, lad!  You are a strong person.

Have you asked her what you can do to help her feel less used during sex?  Ask her what she wants, or feels she can give. Get details, specifics, push for concrete answers.  Make suggestions, talk over different scenarios and see if anything sparks her?  She's have to be pretty open for this talk tho.

Ditto with what ff said, for sure.  Using validation is great.  It can really help, keep up the great work!

I only have one more suggestion, and it may be the absolute wrong thing for the two of you, but I do see it as one more to add to your options list.  Telling her about your struggle and explaining to her that your sexual needs are real, and if she can't be there to fulfill them, then they MUST be looked after in another way, and ask her what she feel you should do.  Help her understand sex is as important for you as breathing, and cannot be ignored.

No blaming her, of course, be careful about that.  If it sounds like you are blaming her, you'll likely get no where. But help her see that your back is against the wall, and you are being tempted by others, and that you don't want to stray, but it sometimes feels like that is the only way you will get your needs met, if you keep living under these circumstances.  Practice first, and try to use "I" statements as much as possible.

  

Your a good man, Cole.

[Cole]

Bravo, Cole!  You done good, lad!  You are a strong person.

Have you asked her what you can do to help her feel less used during sex?  Ask her what she wants, or feels she can give. Get details, specifics, push for concrete answers.  Make suggestions, talk over different scenarios and see if anything sparks her?  She's have to be pretty open for this talk tho.

Ditto with what ff said, for sure.  Using validation is great.  It can really help, keep up the great work!

I only have one more suggestion, and it may be the absolute wrong thing for the two of you, but I do see it as one more to add to your options list.  Telling her about your struggle and explaining to her that your sexual needs are real, and if she can't be there to fulfill them, then they MUST be looked after in another way, and ask her what she feel you should do.  Help her understand sex is as important for you as breathing, and cannot be ignored.

No blaming her, of course, be careful about that.  If it sounds like you are blaming her, you'll likely get no where. But help her see that your back is against the wall, and you are being tempted by others, and that you don't want to stray, but it sometimes feels like that is the only way you will get your needs met, if you keep living under these circumstances.  Practice first, and try to use "I" statements as much as possible.

 

Your a good man, Cole.

Good advice, Crumbling, and something I already did. I told her almost exactly what you are suggesting. Her response was that she would not like it if I went somewhere else, but would understand. It is almost as if she wants me to.

I get text messages all the time that go something like, "I have messed everything up. It is all my fault." I could swear she wants me to cheat on her so she can feel like we are on even ground. I messed up, you messed up, so now we are even. 

[formflier]

mewhere else, but would understand. It is almost as if she wants me to.

I get text messages all the time that go something like, "I have messed everything up. It is all my fault." I could swear she wants me to cheat on her so she can feel like we are on even ground. I messed up, you messed up, so now we are even. 

I recommend that you focus on the behavior... .and look for what you can validate... ."feeling messed up" (in this case).

Energy spent trying to figure out "what she wants"... .is very likely to be wasted... .because you'll never know... .you probably won't get it right... .and in the majority of cases where you come up with "wrong" answers... .you will most likely have come up with troubling answers... .and spend time thinking about troubling things... .for nothing.

Another way of saying it:  There are enough "troubling" things and behaviors that are "for sure" with pwBPD traits... .your plate will be full with those.

Don't go looking for more trouble.

[Crumbling]

Yeah, good point FF. I guess I was thinking more about what may entice her, and less about the drama issues.

It sounds like she feels intimidated by the " lus one" you get for being the non-cheating spouse.  Could it be that she isn't having sex with you because she's punishing herself?  Given her past, it sounds just like this.  It really is her issue here.

Any ideas on how Cole can help her overcome this, without jumping into the cheating-spouse category? 

[formflier]

It really is her issue here.

My guess is that "shame" is core issue... .

If she hadn't cheated (or been promiscuous)... she would feel shame over something else.

Promiscuous is an activity... .hard to validate or "treat".

Shame is an emotion... .that seems to me to be closer to the core of the issue.

Thoughts?

[Crumbling]

Well, it makes sense about the 'shame for the sake of shame' thing.  I know my BPDh harbours shame about everything in his past, a lot. And when he gets in that funk, I do have a rather un-orthodoxed method of getting him out of it.  It goes against conventional wisdom a bit, but it does work for us.

My BPDh likes straight talk, say it like it is discussions.  So as per his request, I've tried implementing this into our conversations, and it has sort of evolved over time.  So when it comes to him spewing self hate, I agree with him, and repeat what he is saying to me, with exaggeration, or sarcasm maybe, so that what he is saying falls on his own ears.  I don't do it to be mean, and he knows what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, to help him hear his own words and adjust the thinking behind them. 

Example:  "What do I say to that?  Yes, dear, you are absolutely right.  Everything you have done in your life has been a total waist of time, you are not worthy of happiness or peace because you are such a horrible person, and there is certainly no hope of anything ever changing in you life, so why bother trying, right.  Really?  Is this what you what me to say?"

He typically does a double take at that point, and literally, gives his head a shake.  Then I hug him, and tell him I love him.

That felt good to admit to this, but I don't really know if it will help anyone else, like I said, it's pretty much the opposite of what's taught here.  This is like hyper-invalidation.

[Cole]

Yep. I think you are both onto something with the whole shame issue. I did not know how deep it runs in pwBPD until recently. 

She does talk about being ashamed of a multitude of things; being promiscuous before we met, an affair in 2007 while manic (BPD and bipolar II), and more recently being so wrapped up in impressing people from high school that she seriously neglected the kids and me all summer.

It is as if pwBPD do things they know they should not do, and nothing will dissuade them from that course of action. Then, one day they wake up, realize what they are doing and stop, as if they had no idea they were doing it. Then they proceed to overwhelming shame and guilt.

Am I describing something others have seen in their SO?

[Cole]

Example:  "What do I say to that?  Yes, dear, you are absolutely right.  Everything you have done in your life has been a total waist of time, you are not worthy of happiness or peace because you are such a horrible person, and there is certainly no hope of anything ever changing in you life, so why bother trying, right.  Really?  Is this what you what me to say?"

Ah. The sarcastic approach. I don't think it is anti-validating. May be a good way to get his attention that he is not as bad as he thinks he is. If it works and helps him, keep it up!

[MissyM]

Cole, I think all of the advice that FF has been giving you is spot on!  My dBPDh has a lot of shame around sexuality (ended up switching to sex addiction after having been sexually anorexic until the age of 49).  He will say he wants to have sex and then pick fights so that it doesn't happen.  I think it is a little different being male but the core issue of shame is the same.  My dBPDh suffered from sexual abuse and sexual shaming as a child and being emotionally and sexually intimate is terrifying for him.  Based upon your dBPDw's behavior (being sexually promiscuous when young and then shutting down sexually) do you think she has sexual abuse in her past?  It could have been a one time event or something else.

[formflier]

 

Missy,

Thanks!   

Cole,

Catch us up again on the status of your wife going to counseling for herself... .or you guys going to MC.

I scanned a few of these posts again... .and I thought about my advice... .and one thing I was struck by is that these are big... .core issues... .that have most likely been in place for a long time. 

BPD family is not here to teach people how to be therapists... .we teach people how to deal with "traits" or behaviors.

Sexual shame is a "cut to the core" issue.  Think about a guy switching from anorexic to addiction... .that's about as core as it gets.  Sure... .strategies we teach here will help soften the edges of that... .make things livable... .but the vast majorit of this needs to be addressed by trained professionals.

So... .a bit of a long winded way to say that somehow this needs to be addressed on an individual basis... .and a marriage basis. 

I'll hush for now and let you respond... .