challenging them

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Is there a way to make my x see how selfish / childish and hurtful her behaviours have been ?  Her lack of empathy and self introspection is flabbergasting .

[dobie]

Is there a way to make my x see how selfish / childish and hurtful her behaviours have been ?  Her lack of empathy and self introspection is flabbergasting .

[NonAverageJoe]

There really isn't a point. Take it from me. I did this last night. I could have had her back at the cost of my self-respect.

[EaglesJuju]

Unfortunately, without treatment it is very hard for a pwBPD to take responsibility for their behavior.  Keeping that in mind, it will be very hard for you to "make her see." She is the only one that can change.  You cannot change her behavior.  Her behaviors are all apart of the disorder.  

Hypothetically if you were to tell her about her behaviors while she is in a heightened emotional state, it would most likely end up unfavorable.

I understand how confusing and frustrating it is.  

[lost_in_translation]

I tried this many times, sometimes I would even get her to agree and she would change for approximately 2 weeks, but then she'd go straight back to being her selfish, childish, lazy and dishonest self.

[hurting300]

No buddy, I actually sit my ex down and told her very nicely she was hurting me. Then the blame shifted to me. I can accept blame, they can't. Even with treatment it's still poor.

[hurting300]

I tried this many times, sometimes I would even get her to agree and she would change for approximately 2 weeks, but then she'd go straight back to being her selfish, childish, lazy and dishonest self.

did we date the same woman

[peiper]

I tried this many times in the over year and a half we were together. It always turned out bad, usually with her blaming it all on me and gaslighting.

[Heartbroken Eagle]

Absolutely no point. In their own sad world they will justify their behaviours with no care about anyone but themselves and blame everyone else. Judging by my ex, when I'd asked why she did what she did, knowing it would destroy our family and hurt my son and I, she looked at me coldly in the eyes and said because I enjoyed it... .

Trust me you are better off without them. But it still hurts!

[dobie]

These "people" are a cancer.

[hurting300]

These "people" are a cancer.

they are worthless.

[jhkbuzz]

These "people" are a cancer.

they are worthless.

Ouch, folks. They're human beings... .disordered human beings.  I understand your pain... .I've been crying on and off for the past two days... .but still - your posts are pretty rough.

[hurting300]

These "people" are a cancer.

they are worthless.

Ouch, folks. They're human beings... .disordered human beings.  I understand your pain... .I've been crying on and off for the past two days... .but still - your posts are pretty rough.

I'd get banned if I said what I wanted to.

[HappyNihilist]

Is there a way to make my x see how selfish / childish and hurtful her behaviours have been ?  Her lack of empathy and self introspection is flabbergasting .

What do you think you would gain if you could "make her see" how hurtful her behaviors are? What are you looking for in this situation?

[NonAverageJoe]

She'll just deregulate and project unless she comes to terms with it on her own.

[milo1967]

I used unshakeable reason that a (real) child would have no difficulty understanding and acknowledging. Nope. I begged. I pleaded. Nothing. Like the other poster, I finally said bluntly, tears streaming down my face, looking her straight in the eyes, "What you are doing is hurting me. Please stop hurting me." Nothing. Soulless, dead eyes.

Reach your own conclusions.

[jhkbuzz]

I used unshakeable reason that a (real) child would have no difficulty understanding and acknowledging. Nope. I begged. I pleaded. Nothing. Like the other poster, I finally said bluntly, tears streaming down my face, looking her straight in the eyes, "What you are doing is hurting me. Please stop hurting me." Nothing. Soulless, dead eyes.

Reach your own conclusions.

Dissociation.  :)etached protector.  However you want to label it, it's a state in which they completely cut off their emotions because they are overwhelmed.  Remember, this is a disorder of emotional dysregulation.

I understand the heartache... .after finding out about my exBPDgf's affair I said to her (in great anguish), "Emotionally, you keep punching me in the face.  STOP PUNCHING ME IN THE FACE"  So I understand the heartache, and experienced the very same detached responses as you.

There are many posts that encourage us to stop taking the disorder personally... .it's a very very difficult thing to do, but I think it's the correct way to view things.  Radical acceptance.

[hope2727]

These "people" are a cancer.

they are worthless.

Ouch, folks. They're human beings... .disordered human beings.  I understand your pain... .I've been crying on and off for the past two days... .but still - your posts are pretty rough.

Thank you. They are deeply flawed and totally responsible for their actions but not worthless or monsters. I consider mine a blessing despite his horrible behaviour and most lily never hearing from him again. I learned so much both good and bad from him.

[Ripped Heart]

Guys, its perfectly understandable to be upset or going through a phase of anger but as jhkbuzz indicated, they are also human beings with a disorder. Unfortunately, it's perhaps one of the most painful disorders to have for them and for us too.

However, a couple of things to bear in mind. We were the ones who accepted these relationships and either chose to ignore the red flags or didn't see them in the first place.

Despite the abuse, we still stayed and hung on until we were finally discarded. I've had those very same feelings towards my exN/BPDw but when I focus, I can't be angry at her but I can at the disorder. Why?

Because I loved the attention she gave me in the beginning. I loved the fact she mirrored my every move and thought. Even when the abuse started, I longed for the days when the attention was back on me. So if they are disordered, what does that say about those of us who choose to continue that relationship? We have every right to be angry but before we start with the name calling, a bit of self analysis is needed. Why were you a beacon to them?

We allowed them to hurt us and still remained in the relationship. What aspect of our own lives teaches us to think abuse is acceptable?

The sad answer to dobies original question is no you can't. Some day after the pattern repeats over and over again, they may have enough and want to find out but that will always be their choice. All you can do is learn what drew you in so you don't ever have to face that pain again and see the    before you get attached.

There are ways to communicate using the tools on this site but it takes a lot of effort, practice and a level of self awareness on their behalf. Sometimes you get closure, sometimes you don't. I have my own battle right now with BPDgf in that r/s goes from ending to working through at the drop of a hat and then the next day, get a random text like nothing has happened. Yet if I try and raise any issue or continue from where it left off the day before, she feels ill and closes up. Occasionally, after a bombardment of nasty comments, she will apologise but then close up.

[going places]

Is there a way to make my x see how selfish / childish and hurtful her behaviours have been ?  Her lack of empathy and self introspection is flabbergasting .

In my situation, no, there was no way.

His own children's heart break, and the destruction of the family didn't phase him.

There was no empathy.

No remorse.

No care or concern for anyone.

The only thing he put any effort into was maintaining his image to his family (who I think are pretty jacked up) and his co workers. Eventually, he didn't care what his co workers thought, and he switched jobs so he could swindle a whole new group of people.

For me, it was pointless, fruitless, and a complete waste of my time and life.

It's like trying to get a 6 month old baby to understand Calculus.

[Mutt]

These "people" are a cancer.

they are worthless.

I'm sorry you were hurt

The person you speak of has loved ones. Perhaps a mother, father, sister, brother, grandparents that may love them very much.

Check around the site you'll find many family members that love them that chose to reach a great divide.

A pwBPD can display empathy and compassion. It's difficult to show this at times when they're having difficulties seeing past themselves perhaps when the person is overwhelmed with emotions.

It's invalidating to us and we feel rejection, hurt when empathy, sympathy and compassion isn't displayed. I feel invalidated by persons in real life that aren't mentally ill and that may not show empathy, compassion and sympathy either when I tell them something I'm struggling with. Or I'm looking for emotional support and it's not always the case, everyone wants to be heard and acknowledged or validated.

It's also not to say it's completely absent either with pwBPD. I've seen my ex display empathy. Our relationship wasn't always polarized, there were calm waters were she displayed affection etc.

[dobie]

I was harsh I appologise ... I was projecting because of my pain .

My x has lots of  traits of BPD high functioning possible waif I wish I knew for sure but I can only conjecture if she really is I'll then I would have more compassion I only found out about BPD after the BU when I was discarded blamed and treated like gum , it was only when family also started to tell me they saw signs of a PD and I started to research and look back at the r/s I realised this is not possibly just a childish selfish women but someone with a PD

[Aussie JJ]

Love or Hate.

Two very strong emotions, polar oposites.  I have been through the WOW I HATE HER stage, it was good to get it out.  However it is the same behaviour my ex displays constantly.  Grow from this and have that ability to understand, she isnt a bad person, a disordered person... .

Good people do bad things.  That's how I see it. 

Do you tell the puppy off for pissing on the carpet and make it whimper in the corner, or give the puppy a pat take the puppy outside and show the puppy where to piss in the future? 

A pwBPD has stunted emotional maturity, when toilet training a child (developing emotional maturity) you congradulate them on pissing their pants and coax them to use the toilet.  Gain more control over their bladder function.  You 'train' your child to have that control of their bladder and know when they have to go to the toilet. 

a pwBPD has never had that emotional training or guidance.  They have had to grow up often in a neglectful or abusive environment constantly suppressing their emotions.  They have no way to regulate them due to bad parenting (often).  Please, be angry however have some empathy as well. 

Their emotional outbursts are the equivilant of a child pissing his/her pants during toilet training.  They are to be congradulated, validated so that they can learn from them.  We are their intimate partners, we are not their coachs for these things.  We had no idea that they needed this training. 

A large part of therapy is healing from childhood trauma and what not with a pwBPD.  Learning new emotional coping mechanisms.  Dont be angry at them for having no other way to deal with these emotions.  They choose not to learn, respect that choice and choose to edetach from it.  No longer your responsibility. 




AJJ. 

[hurting300]

Love or Hate.

Two very strong emotions, polar oposites.  I have been through the WOW I HATE HER stage, it was good to get it out.  However it is the same behaviour my ex displays constantly.  Grow from this and have that ability to understand, she isnt a bad person, a disordered person... .

Good people do bad things.  That's how I see it. 

Do you tell the puppy off for pissing on the carpet and make it whimper in the corner, or give the puppy a pat take the puppy outside and show the puppy where to piss in the future? 

A pwBPD has stunted emotional maturity, when toilet training a child (developing emotional maturity) you congradulate them on pissing their pants and coax them to use the toilet.  Gain more control over their bladder function.  You 'train' your child to have that control of their bladder and know when they have to go to the toilet. 

a pwBPD has never had that emotional training or guidance.  They have had to grow up often in a neglectful or abusive environment constantly suppressing their emotions.  They have no way to regulate them due to bad parenting (often).  Please, be angry however have some empathy as well. 

Their emotional outbursts are the equivilant of a child pissing his/her pants during toilet training.  They are to be congradulated, validated so that they can learn from them.  We are their intimate partners, we are not their coachs for these things.  We had no idea that they needed this training. 

A large part of therapy is healing from childhood trauma and what not with a pwBPD.  Learning new emotional coping mechanisms.  Dont be angry at them for having no other way to deal with these emotions.  They choose not to learn, respect that choice and choose to edetach from it.  No longer your responsibility. 




AJJ. 

wow man, that actually makes sense. That's nicely written.

[Ripped Heart]

I was harsh I appologise ... I was projecting because of my pain .

No apologies needed   Projection is perfectly acceptable.

Being involved in relationships with pwBPD, we do tend to pick up some of their traits along the way. Sometimes you find the mirror isn't always one way and we mirror others the same way they mirror us. What we have is the capacity to look inside ourselves and recognise this and work through it. Imagine if we didn't have that capacity and that what we projected out was we took as the truth? It must be a really horrible way to have to live your life and it's through that where you can start to distinguish the illness from the person. Doesn't always mean we can forgive that person or that our scars will disappear but they will heal over time and JJ's last sentence sums it all up very nicely, once you are free from the FOG - They are "No longer your responsibility"

My BPDgf never had the opportunity from the very beginning. The person she grew up thinking was her mother was actually her Aunt and who she thought was her Aunt was actually her biological mother. As such, she never experienced the opportunity of a bond between mother and daughter. Worst thing was, they kept it from her until her mother passed away 7 years ago when BPDgf was 36 years old. The only constant in the deception was her grandmother who passed away 2 months later. So her life has been a constant of deceit, lies and mistrust, that is all she has ever known. She grew up watching the love, care and attention her sister got and was left out of so much.

All of that was outside of her control but goes a long way to explain her condition and a lot of her behaviours. It's not something she asked for, or even something she brought on herself. She did seek out therapy but it was too painful for her, instead settled for medication which she lapses a lot with taking. Now that is her responsibility.

In the lines of what JJ said below, about never having that emotional training or guidance. I have a question. How would you describe what an orange tastes like to someone if you have never seen or eaten one yourself?

What they do to us, is extremely painful in every sense of the word, on a number of levels it can constitute as abuse. Our own feelings of hurt, anger, pain and projection are perfectly valid too and it's important to understand that pain as part of our own healing process. It doesn't mean what someone has done to you is right and it doesn't mean you should just mark it off and forget about it. It leaves very real scars that can sometimes take a long time to heal.

It's about understanding, especially within our own roles with what we brought to the relationship. Where did we fit in? Why were we so emotionally involved? And it's through that we learn to have acceptance of ourselves and finally find peace within ourselves too.

[PaintedBlack28]

Not productive... no benefit. Better invest effort on healing. It's tough, but it's the best we can do.

[jhkbuzz]

Unfortunately, without treatment it is very hard for a pwBPD to take responsibility for their behavior. Keeping that in mind, it will be very hard for you to "make her see." She is the only one that can change. You cannot change her behavior.  Her behaviors are all apart of the disorder.  

Hypothetically if you were to tell her about her behaviors while she is in a heightened emotional state, it would most likely end up unfavorable.



I understand how confusing and frustrating it is.  

Yup - I tried and we split up.  The end.

But it's okay.  I couldn't have continued living the way I was living.  I was tired of stuffing down my needs to keep the peace.

[Infern0]

You certainly can't do it when they are disregulating or dissociated so that's like 50% of the time.  Even when they are "stable" they are highly sensitive to criticism.

Mine usually recognizes her behaviour was wrong after she rages etc and apologizes but she claims to not remember what she said. Sometimes she asks me what she said and this might sound strange but we usually have a laugh about it and she says stuff like "god I'm such a child" and apologizes.  I say it's ok but try not to do it and she promises she will try.

But same usual story,  she will be ok for a few days and then it all happens all over again.

[Tibbles]

I was always amazed at how my ex blamed our kids for his own poor behaviour.  Even now he is angry at our son who behaved "disgustingly" towards him. To me our kids were normal teenagers. Nothing that bad at all. I could never get how he got so angry at the kids when they wanted to do things outside the family. He took it so personally, like a child who's best friend doesn't want to play with them that day.  They are kids. He could never get that. After coming here I've come to understand he is a child when it comes to emotions and relationships. He needed the kids to be the adults. So sad. They are trapped in the child stage of emotional development. The damage that does to those who love them is terrible. However we can analyse it, come to understand it and make our own choices on how to deal with it. They cannot. They are caught in their pain forever.

[BorisAcusio]

My ex had a brief honest moment before we reconciled back in august, admitting that she can't love anyone, sometimes even have to force herself to feel love towards her daughter who she lost custody after divorce. Out of sight, out of mind.

She burst through her supplies after we separated for 6 months, years of unemployment, barely leaving her room. She was completely lost, contemplating suicide. Then the lost child turned into angry child and the cycle continues... .

[nowwhatz]

I agree that without treatment the BPD person probably in incable of accepting any responsibility.

Be that as it may when I have had the opportunity I challenged her.  Most recently challenging her had "results." I attribute the results to treatment she had to do about 1 year ago and her experience in court, where she had to accept responsibilty like it or not and it stares her in the face now every day.

If you have an opportunity to challenge them I say why not. What is there to lose?

[ADecadeLost]

Is there a way to make my x see how selfish / childish and hurtful her behaviours have been ?  Her lack of empathy and self introspection is flabbergasting .

I tried many times throughout the 10 years my dBPD ex-wife and I were together.  It never really accomplished anything.  In moments of clarity, she could acknowledge small things.  That was it though.

Two years into DBT, however, she's beginning to develop the ability to process things (she actually acknowledges the role her actions have played in our separation and pending divorce).  She recognizes the things she's done and actively tries to avoid repeating such behaviors.  It doesn't always work (I've dealt with a few disregulations during limited contact), but she's learning.  Shame the process started too late to save our relationship, but I'll be happy for her if she continues to progress as the years go by.

[myself]

With a disorder where trust, intimacy, kindness, and love are some of the biggest triggers, what ISN'T ultimately challenging to the person who's experiencing it? What doesn't make the person defensive/run away?

The best thing to do is be yourself. Whether the r/s is working or not.

Look into our own mirrors first and most. Challenging ourselves.