Have I finally learned? Why so slow?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationships and people's motives.

I was a late bloomer to full-on intimate r-ships with women. Not sure why -- may be as simple as, having been raised in a conservative Catholic home, I was pretty brainwashed I guess into blindly accepting as a "rule" that sex was a serious thing that shouldn't happen until a couple had a deep commitment to each other. I suppose "brainwashed" is too strong as word; it was more like this is what I was taught, and these were the examples I was given, from as far back as I can ever remember even hearing about the idea of sex. It's what we were taught in school, it's what was preached in church, it's what our teachers, parents, older relatives and pretty much all role models and persons of influence said -- if the forbidden topic was mentioned at all. The reality was that it was predominantly not mentioned. It was all a big secret.

Looking back with the benefit of what I know about myself today, one the one hand, I'm stunned -- by how much of my "wild oats" days were spent blindly obedient to this assumption; I'm not ashamed to admit that it certainly was strong enough to override any natural biological instincts. I guess override is the wrong word -- I certainly knew sexual desire, and had a very active imagination. But I wasn't at all assertive in that area. I was as interested in the opposite sex as the rest of my male friends, but while some of them were starting to explore this side of life, some even "dating," I was still in the dark, just hanging out with my buddies. I didn't have my first real GF until I was a freshman in college -- and I kind of assumed it would last forever. It lasted 3 months, as those r-ships do -- and I took it way harder than I should have -- at that age. I simply had no experience. Next up was my first long-term r-ship, a monogamous 4-yr relationship in which sex never went much beyond heavy make-out sessions -- even though we'd spend many nights together in bed. It wasn't because I didn't want to have sex -- I loved my GF, I was very attracted to her, I was horny as hell (as you can imagine!) -- but I was rigidly programmed to believe that if sex happens, it was because the woman allowed it. And my GF was sweet, and a virgin, and had indicated while we were still in college that she intended to wait until marriage -- and I simply never pushed the limits with her. We did almost everything except have actual intercourse, and I guess to my naive self, that was enough.

I think a theme with me may very well be staying too long, combined with ignoring my gut instincts. Seems to be a trend... .

• Late bloomer wrt intimate r-ships (first real romantic r-ship not until college,
  
  followed by first long-term r-ship, lasted 4 yrs, no sex)



• First sexual relationship, progressed fast with BPD ex-wife -- who was divorced at the time, moved in almost immediately, begin pressing for marriage within a year and I, having no experience with this kind of r-ship, figured it was time to get married.
  
  She loved to have fun and be social. Alcohol was her drug of choice. Had what she described as an abusive childhood, at the hands of her alcoholic father. Mother died shortly after she was born, father remarried. Held onto idealized image of her deceased biological mom, and viewed his second wife as a classic wicked stepmother. One brother, also probs with substance abuse and failure to launch. After our divorce, remarried 3 (count 'em!) more times, and has been with current husband for over 15 years (she's 52 now).
  
  We separated when our son was about 18 mos old -- my ex cheated on me. Denied it vehemently at first, eventually confessed -- I knew I wouldn't get over it. Totally blindsided -- my first exposure to BPD as I dove into psychology texts in a desperate attempt to understand her callous and thoughtless behavior. One second I was the best thing that ever happened to her, but after I'd married her and we had a child together, she just arbitrarily decided that she didn't want to be married anymore. After a failed separation, I filed for divorce.



• Surprised to find myself able to fall in love again -- with a wonderful woman who nonetheless had lots of anxiety issues, probably PTSD, didn't recognize it at the time. Father died young, possibly alcoholism-related, mother was very critical, if I recall her descriptions. Had lots of insecurity about the "status" of our r-ship, as I was not formally divorced yet, but fully done with my ex wife in my heart and mind at the time, lots of conflict over not getting enough attention, wanting to move in, etc. I broke it off, hoping she'd come to her senses and return, but she didn't. Once the heartbreak passed, I've always had fond memories of her. Lost touch with her after she got married.



• Next GF was 5 yrs older, had commitment issues (had been engaged to an apparently good duy for 7 years, but wouldn't get married -- he moved on after he relocated for a job and she didn't follow), also some bipolar, and shared that she possibly suffered from D.I.D. We had fun, great sex, super intellectual connection -- but she never saw me exclusively and we seemed to recognize that there wasn't much of a future. At the time, she was 42, but regularly stressed that she wanted to have a family, while showing zero interest in my then 5-yr-old son. We had a rational discussion, ended the r-ship, saw each other one last time, then stopped communicating. About a month later, she called me, irate about being "dumped." I tried to talk to her, but she said, "Have a good life" and hung up.



• Met a recent grad, 13 yrs younger than me. Product of broken home, described father as alcoholic, though in our time together, I never got that impression -- I thought he was a good guy, responsible, cared about his family, we got along, he had a career. Mother seemed to have been paralyzed since the end of their marriage, I think. Lots of health probs, never remarried, though she'd converted to Judaism because she had some unrequited love for a rabbi who had shown her kindness when her marriage first ended. Sweet woman, but def weird. Always referred to my GF as "angel honey," clearly could not discipline the children, of whom she had shared custody.
  
  She was smart, funny, liked to have fun, liked to drink, party and loved sex. Once responded to a survey question -- "How do you work off stress?" -- with the answer ":)rinking and sex!" Claimed she knew she never wanted kids, moved in with me about a week after I first told her that I loved her. Wasn't my intention, but I let her stay -- turned into a 6-yr r-ship, during which she began to push for marriage, we got engaged, and she had an affair with a colleague who worked in the same field as she did. (We also worked together.) I broke off the engagement and made her move out. She lost her job about 6 months later, and moved back in, I caught her flirting with people online and on her phone, ended it. Within 3 months of moving back home, she'd met a new guy and moved in with him. Still with him today.

I left out a few shorter r-ships that were more just dating than anything serious. After I split up with my fiancee, I was single for about 5 years. Did the online dating thing, met a lot of people, no one I was really interested in until my ex... .and the rest is history.

So, my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away. Then, my r-ship with my former fiancee, most likely bipolar, taught me that even though you though it would work, it's ok to call off an engagement. Because of these experiences, the flags were clear in my most recent r-ship, and then prevented me from combining households, and from getting engaged or married. But, still, I stayed until I couldn't take it anymore. My lesson may very well be as simple as this: If it's a struggle after a few weeks or months, or if you just aren't on the same age about big things like your "status" or the timeline of moving forward -- it's probably time to think about moving on.

That was a helluva lot longer than I intended for it to be -- sorry. Like I said -- I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationship stuff.

But I hope at least I'm learning. Interested in your feedback.

[eyvindr]

I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationships and people's motives.

I was a late bloomer to full-on intimate r-ships with women. Not sure why -- may be as simple as, having been raised in a conservative Catholic home, I was pretty brainwashed I guess into blindly accepting as a "rule" that sex was a serious thing that shouldn't happen until a couple had a deep commitment to each other. I suppose "brainwashed" is too strong as word; it was more like this is what I was taught, and these were the examples I was given, from as far back as I can ever remember even hearing about the idea of sex. It's what we were taught in school, it's what was preached in church, it's what our teachers, parents, older relatives and pretty much all role models and persons of influence said -- if the forbidden topic was mentioned at all. The reality was that it was predominantly not mentioned. It was all a big secret.

Looking back with the benefit of what I know about myself today, one the one hand, I'm stunned -- by how much of my "wild oats" days were spent blindly obedient to this assumption; I'm not ashamed to admit that it certainly was strong enough to override any natural biological instincts. I guess override is the wrong word -- I certainly knew sexual desire, and had a very active imagination. But I wasn't at all assertive in that area. I was as interested in the opposite sex as the rest of my male friends, but while some of them were starting to explore this side of life, some even "dating," I was still in the dark, just hanging out with my buddies. I didn't have my first real GF until I was a freshman in college -- and I kind of assumed it would last forever. It lasted 3 months, as those r-ships do -- and I took it way harder than I should have -- at that age. I simply had no experience. Next up was my first long-term r-ship, a monogamous 4-yr relationship in which sex never went much beyond heavy make-out sessions -- even though we'd spend many nights together in bed. It wasn't because I didn't want to have sex -- I loved my GF, I was very attracted to her, I was horny as hell (as you can imagine!) -- but I was rigidly programmed to believe that if sex happens, it was because the woman allowed it. And my GF was sweet, and a virgin, and had indicated while we were still in college that she intended to wait until marriage -- and I simply never pushed the limits with her. We did almost everything except have actual intercourse, and I guess to my naive self, that was enough.

I think a theme with me may very well be staying too long, combined with ignoring my gut instincts. Seems to be a trend... .

• Late bloomer wrt intimate r-ships (first real romantic r-ship not until college,
  
  followed by first long-term r-ship, lasted 4 yrs, no sex)



• First sexual relationship, progressed fast with BPD ex-wife -- who was divorced at the time, moved in almost immediately, begin pressing for marriage within a year and I, having no experience with this kind of r-ship, figured it was time to get married.
  
  She loved to have fun and be social. Alcohol was her drug of choice. Had what she described as an abusive childhood, at the hands of her alcoholic father. Mother died shortly after she was born, father remarried. Held onto idealized image of her deceased biological mom, and viewed his second wife as a classic wicked stepmother. One brother, also probs with substance abuse and failure to launch. After our divorce, remarried 3 (count 'em!) more times, and has been with current husband for over 15 years (she's 52 now).
  
  We separated when our son was about 18 mos old -- my ex cheated on me. Denied it vehemently at first, eventually confessed -- I knew I wouldn't get over it. Totally blindsided -- my first exposure to BPD as I dove into psychology texts in a desperate attempt to understand her callous and thoughtless behavior. One second I was the best thing that ever happened to her, but after I'd married her and we had a child together, she just arbitrarily decided that she didn't want to be married anymore. After a failed separation, I filed for divorce.



• Surprised to find myself able to fall in love again -- with a wonderful woman who nonetheless had lots of anxiety issues, probably PTSD, didn't recognize it at the time. Father died young, possibly alcoholism-related, mother was very critical, if I recall her descriptions. Had lots of insecurity about the "status" of our r-ship, as I was not formally divorced yet, but fully done with my ex wife in my heart and mind at the time, lots of conflict over not getting enough attention, wanting to move in, etc. I broke it off, hoping she'd come to her senses and return, but she didn't. Once the heartbreak passed, I've always had fond memories of her. Lost touch with her after she got married.



• Next GF was 5 yrs older, had commitment issues (had been engaged to an apparently good duy for 7 years, but wouldn't get married -- he moved on after he relocated for a job and she didn't follow), also some bipolar, and shared that she possibly suffered from D.I.D. We had fun, great sex, super intellectual connection -- but she never saw me exclusively and we seemed to recognize that there wasn't much of a future. At the time, she was 42, but regularly stressed that she wanted to have a family, while showing zero interest in my then 5-yr-old son. We had a rational discussion, ended the r-ship, saw each other one last time, then stopped communicating. About a month later, she called me, irate about being "dumped." I tried to talk to her, but she said, "Have a good life" and hung up.



• Met a recent grad, 13 yrs younger than me. Product of broken home, described father as alcoholic, though in our time together, I never got that impression -- I thought he was a good guy, responsible, cared about his family, we got along, he had a career. Mother seemed to have been paralyzed since the end of their marriage, I think. Lots of health probs, never remarried, though she'd converted to Judaism because she had some unrequited love for a rabbi who had shown her kindness when her marriage first ended. Sweet woman, but def weird. Always referred to my GF as "angel honey," clearly could not discipline the children, of whom she had shared custody.
  
  She was smart, funny, liked to have fun, liked to drink, party and loved sex. Once responded to a survey question -- "How do you work off stress?" -- with the answer ":)rinking and sex!" Claimed she knew she never wanted kids, moved in with me about a week after I first told her that I loved her. Wasn't my intention, but I let her stay -- turned into a 6-yr r-ship, during which she began to push for marriage, we got engaged, and she had an affair with a colleague who worked in the same field as she did. (We also worked together.) I broke off the engagement and made her move out. She lost her job about 6 months later, and moved back in, I caught her flirting with people online and on her phone, ended it. Within 3 months of moving back home, she'd met a new guy and moved in with him. Still with him today.

I left out a few shorter r-ships that were more just dating than anything serious. After I split up with my fiancee, I was single for about 5 years. Did the online dating thing, met a lot of people, no one I was really interested in until my ex... .and the rest is history.

So, my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away. Then, my r-ship with my former fiancee, most likely bipolar, taught me that even though you though it would work, it's ok to call off an engagement. Because of these experiences, the flags were clear in my most recent r-ship, and then prevented me from combining households, and from getting engaged or married. But, still, I stayed until I couldn't take it anymore. My lesson may very well be as simple as this: If it's a struggle after a few weeks or months, or if you just aren't on the same age about big things like your "status" or the timeline of moving forward -- it's probably time to think about moving on.

That was a helluva lot longer than I intended for it to be -- sorry. Like I said -- I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationship stuff.

But I hope at least I'm learning. Interested in your feedback.

[Grey Kitty]

Good list of relationships. You mention things you learned about relationships. 

You didn't say what you learned about yourself through these relationships. I think that sort of assessment could help you.

One common thread: They all had serious mental health issues. (except possibly the first college r/s.)

What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence.

[parisian]

my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away

eyvindr, there are lots of reasons I think to take your time to commit to a relationship. Not just about waiting to move in although it's good you learnt that. Another excellent point you touch on is that at any point in time in the 'get to know you phase', you are 'allowed' to change your mind about that person. Actually you can change your mind at any point in time, not just during the dating phase and we all know what prevents us doing that

Dating slowly I've realized is so important so you can:

1. Really get to know someone across a wide range of circumstances

2. Take your time to see if any red flags pop up during any of that

3.  Make sure you are really happy within yourself , that the r/s is not just about being lonely and needy

4. Take your time to see if any red flags pop up during any of that

5. Get to know their values, character and what type of person they are

6. Take your time to see if any red flags pop up during any of that

[Pingo]

Eyvindr, do you see patterns in the different women you've been with?  How they made you feel as a man?  And do you see patterns in your role with these women?  I have had a lot of different r/ss in my lifetime, I wasn't meant to be with one long term partner apparently.  It's been helpful to look back and find the patterns and my role and where it stems from.  I think it's more than just learning the lesson these r/ss were to teach us, I think it's about healing some core wounds that we are sometimes not even aware of.

[billypilgrim]

Why so slow? I've asked myself this same question.  I've managed to spend 9 years of my 26 on this earth with 2 cluster Bs.  I married the second one.  For me, the reason I not only got involved but stayed up until they left was due to my FOO issues.  Specifically my abusive, alcoholic, and NPD grandfather.  He played a major role in "raising" me and still is a prominent figure in my family.  So the abuse from my two cluster bs that I dealt with in my relationships was familiar and normal to me.  I've been used to appeasing, or at least trying my best to appease, those types of people since I was very young.  I kept the peace as a kid by not sticking up for myself to protect my parents from his rages and drama.  I watched my father endure the same sorts of abuse and I copied him.  It's now on me to rid myself of these early survival techniques and build newer, healthier ones so I don't end up back here.  I'm learning how to put myself before others, which is completely foreign to me.  

I do think I have learned that the next time I wake up and realize that I'm not happy or that my needs are completely being ignored, I won't stick it out or try make things better.  I'm also not going to rescue anymore potential partners.  I'll keep my rescuing tendencies to ones with 4 legs only.      

So maybe for you, there's some familiarity with caretaking/catering to someone in your family.  But as others have said, it's no coincidence that you have found yourself with similar types of partners.  

[eyvindr]

Thanks all for the responses -- I appreciate it.

parisian  -- I believe that I understand these things, and agree with everything you said.

my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away

eyvindr, there are lots of reasons I think to take your time to commit to a relationship. Not just about waiting to move in although it's good you learnt that. Another excellent point you touch on is that at any point in time in the 'get to know you phase', you are 'allowed' to change your mind about that person. Actually you can change your mind at any point in time, not just during the dating phase and we all know what prevents us doing that

I can see that while I learned not to rush into full-scale enmeshment, I still seem to have a habit of holding out hope after I've begun to see red flags. So maybe I confuse my resistance to becoming enmeshed with commitment? As in, I feel like it's ok to commit to someone emotionally, but to be on guard about becoming enmeshed -- when maybe if I sense the danger of enmeshment, it should tell me that this isn't someone I can healthily commit to? I've never been someone who "dates around" -- I'm interested in one person at a time, and except for the few r-ships that I didn't list (would be happy to share, if it would benefit the discussion, but I'm trying not to ramble too much, as I tend to do on these boards), I've only pursued relationships with women who, after a few dates, I feel very interested in -- and where that interest level seems mutual. Seems to make sense, but I must be doing something wrong, because it hasn't worked yet.

Pingo -- thanks for the feedback. I definitely see patterns. I'm all about pattern identification! ("blame it on the O-C-D... ."

Eyvindr, do you see patterns in the different women you've been with?  How they made you feel as a man?  And do you see patterns in your role with these women?  I have had a lot of different r/ss in my lifetime, I wasn't meant to be with one long term partner apparently.  It's been helpful to look back and find the patterns and my role and where it stems from.  I think it's more than just learning the lesson these r/ss were to teach us, I think it's about healing some core wounds that we are sometimes not even aware of.

The most obvious common trait being that all of my exes had serious enough emotional issues that they eventually led me to end our relationships. People say "I don't do drama," but I've found it's often just talk. I really don't do drama. I have some kind of genetic repulsion to it -- it just feels like such a complete and utter waste of time, and when I feel like it's starting to happen, I try to gently suggest that maybe it's time to take a breath -- and when my partners resist the calm, reasonable approach, I'm happy to permit them to "have their moment," but I am clear that I'm not going to participate in it. I guess I'm stupid or something, because I still, despite all of these failed r-ships, don't see how my approach is anything other than reasonable, fair and, hell -- easy, really. Helluva lot easier than fighting until 3 in the morning, as so often happens with people who had PDs!

Ok, more patterns. All of may serious exes have had daddy issues, some have had mommy issues, some have had both. Many were or claimed to be survivors of abuse (I have no reason to doubt them). Things get even more weird when you look at all the "motherless child" connections -- my biological mother's biological father's mother died when he was a child; my mom's mother died when she was a child; my ex wife's mother died when she was a child; both my ex fiancee and my most recent ex GF had mothers who weren't able to separate from their kids (no discipline, no passing on of healthy coping mechanisms, both bipolar to the best of my knowledge). I mean, it's a little creepy, no? Like a regular Parade of Motherless Children!

Contrasting with me, who had both parents, both present, both contributing. Probably a bit of the lonely child in my background, being the oldest in a family of 8 kids, pretty much trauma-free. Only thing that stands out is that both of my parents had a pretty practical emotional style. They were always there for us, I always felt loved and accepted, I certainly never worried that I was going to be abandoned, home felt safe, we had food, clothes, heat. But the emotional nurturing was practical, as I said -- or maybe passive? Like, it was taken for granted, because we were a family. But we never had conversations about emotions, and it wasn't until we kids were grown up that you ever heard the phrase "I love you" actually said out loud to each other.

But -- I know all of that, and despite the patterns, honest to God, all of these women presented themselves to me during the "getting to know you" period as mentally healthy, easy-going, open-minded and interested in friendship -- if they didn't, I would not have been interested in spending time with them. And if I wasn't spending time with them, I wouldn't become interested in pursuing relationships with them. I keep coming back to my primary dilemma: I feel like I keep getting duped, either intentionally or not, and ending up in the same damned boat! How can you get into a relationship without accepting that the person you're getting to know is going to have different feelings about life than you do, different experiences that have formed them? But, if they keep reassuring you with their words and behaviors that they're good, solid potential partners, right up until you fall in love with them, and then *bam!* -- hey, hey it's bippidee time again! -- what the hell is a guy supposed to do?

Well, I guess, maybe bail. Though, if everyone in every new r-ship bailed at the first conflict, there wouldn't be too many long-term r-ships happening. Or maybe, like Pingo, I'm just not meant to be in long-term r-ships. I have considered it. Kinda sucks, but I could live. I'm not miserable alone. I enjoy my own company. But I'm a pretty objective guy, and I'm pretty sure that I didn't drive all of these women nuts. That stuff was there way before I came along.

Thanks for sharing, billypilgrim. I'm sorry you and your family had to witness and suffer such abuse from your grandfather. That's rough.

Why so slow? I've asked myself this same question.  I've managed to spend 9 years of my 26 on this earth with 2 cluster Bs.  I married the second one.  For me, the reason I not only got involved but stayed up until they left was due to my FOO issues.  Specifically my abusive, alcoholic, and NPD grandfather.  He played a major role in "raising" me and still is a prominent figure in my family.  So the abuse from my two cluster bs that I dealt with in my relationships was familiar and normal to me.  I've been used to appeasing, or at least trying my best to appease, those types of people since I was very young.  I kept the peace as a kid by not sticking up for myself to protect my parents from his rages and drama.  I watched my father endure the same sorts of abuse and I copied him.  It's now on me to rid myself of these early survival techniques and build newer, healthier ones so I don't end up back here.  I'm learning how to put myself before others, which is completely foreign to me. 

I do think I have learned that the next time I wake up and realize that I'm not happy or that my needs are completely being ignored, I won't stick it out or try make things better.  I'm also not going to rescue anymore potential partners.  I'll keep my rescuing tendencies to ones with 4 legs only.

So maybe for you, there's some familiarity with caretaking/catering to someone in your family.  But as others have said, it's no coincidence that you have found yourself with similar types of partners. 

Pattern-lover that I am, I'd see this if it were there to be seen in my background. There was no abuse in my history. My parents loved me, and all of us, in the best way they could, and gave all of us as much attention as possible for two people trying to manage a large family. My dad worked, my mom took care of the home -- very traditional. Time and money were limited -- neither of my parents had substance abuse issues, and the extent of their social life consisted of having a few close friends or relatives visit. Have I gone wrong by seeking something other than what I grew up with? Has that simple personal choice on my part led to all of this chaos in my romantic history? Or am I just a s-l-o-w learner!

Grey -- thanks for getting to the point! What are you, a therapist?

Good list of relationships. You mention things you learned about relationships. 

You didn't say what you learned about yourself through these relationships. I think that sort of assessment could help you.

One common thread: They all had serious mental health issues. (except possibly the first college r/s.)

What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence.

That's the question alright. That's what I'm asking. If you wanted to, you could summarize my OP by saying, "What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence." So... .

Am I completely oblivious to red flags for the first few months of a relationship?

Do I give off some kind of signal that attracts emotionally damaged people to me? Is it because they know I'm "safe"? Like children, do they find in me the security that they may have lacked with their own parents? If so, why me?

Have I unconsciously internalized my own mother's unresolved grief over losing her mother as a child? Is it manifesting in my life outwardly by my "adoption" of other "motherless girls" as partners? Am I a surrogate mother without knowing it?

Am I doomed to repeat this pattern until I die?

Was I incarnated here on Earth to provide a share of loving kindness to people who desperately need it, but who don't know how to go about giving and receiving love openly and positively?

Have I just had a lot of bad luck, and am I just over-thinking the whole thing?

Seriously, it would help to know this. I'm ready to get on with my life without repeating these kinds of experiences anymore. If I don't figure something out soon, I'm ready to just drop it all, accept that I can't figure it out, and chalk it up to experience.

[Grey Kitty]

Grey -- thanks for getting to the point! What are you, a therapist?

Funny you should ask that. No, I'm not. Earlier this week my wife said I would be a good one. I shared that comment to another friend, and she said I would be an AWESOME one.  (There's a saying: If three people say you're a duck, start quacking... .)

What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence.

That's the question alright. That's what I'm asking. If you wanted to, you could summarize my OP by saying, "What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence." So... .

Am I completely oblivious to red flags for the first few months of a relationship?

Given your statement [following quote], the pattern of evidence says clearly YES you are missing the    :

But -- I know all of that, and despite the patterns, honest to God, all of these women presented themselves to me during the "getting to know you" period as mentally healthy, easy-going, open-minded and interested in friendship -- if they didn't, I would not have been interested in spending time with them. And if I wasn't spending time with them, I wouldn't become interested in pursuing relationships with them. I keep coming back to my primary dilemma: I feel like I keep getting duped, either intentionally or not, and ending up in the same damned boat! How can you get into a relationship without accepting that the person you're getting to know is going to have different feelings about life than you do, different experiences that have formed them? But, if they keep reassuring you with their words and behaviors that they're good, solid potential partners, right up until you fall in love with them, and then *bam!* -- hey, hey it's bippidee time again!

There's a laundry list of possibilities here... .

Do I give off some kind of signal that attracts emotionally damaged people to me? Is it because they know I'm "safe"? Like children, do they find in me the security that they may have lacked with their own parents? If so, why me?

Have I unconsciously internalized my own mother's unresolved grief over losing her mother as a child? Is it manifesting in my life outwardly by my "adoption" of other "motherless girls" as partners? Am I a surrogate mother without knowing it?

Was I incarnated here on Earth to provide a share of loving kindness to people who desperately need it, but who don't know how to go about giving and receiving love openly and positively?

I can't answer you... .All I can say is... .any are possible. What are you finding that feels like it fits?

Have I just had a lot of bad luck, and am I just over-thinking the whole thing?

Possible... .but unlikely. And if you believe this, I think it leads you more to this one! [following quote]

Am I doomed to repeat this pattern until I die?

You are likely to repeat this pattern until you understand something about it. I'd recommend digging deeper before dating seriously. A professional therapist could help, especially if amateur's like me aren't getting you there.

In some ways, your 'perfect' or 'healthy' FOO reminds me of myself and my FOO. I did some exploring of my own issues, and found some stuff related to my FOO in this topic. Perhaps something in it will ring a chord with you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236486.msg12522074#msg12522074

[jhkbuzz]

Ok, more patterns. All of may serious exes have had daddy issues, some have had mommy issues, some have had both. Many were or claimed to be survivors of abuse (I have no reason to doubt them). Things get even more weird when you look at all the "motherless child" connections …. I mean, it's a little creepy, no? Like a regular Parade of Motherless Children!

Contrasting with me, who had both parents, both present, both contributing... .

I've thought about this one a lot, because I had a pretty stable 2-parent upbringing, but my ex had lots of early childhood trauma. Her parents divorced when she was 5 and the relationship came to a violent end with an ambulance being called; her mother was depressed and suicidal most of her growing up; she was neglected - her mom often didn't come home at night and she (though a little girl herself) had to raise her younger sister. On top of all this, she had a traumatic young adulthood - raped in college, the father of her daughter was 20 years older than her and an abusive alcoholic; next r/s the same, only the physical abuse was even more brutal... .all awful, horrible stuff.  Combine these stories with the fact that she was the sweetest, gentlest woman I had ever met, and my protective, nurturing, hero complex was TRIGGERED! After I fell in love with her, I believed that my steadfast love was exactly what she needed to help her heal.  

ummmm... .nothing worked out quite the way I thought it would... .as you know.    

What have I learned?  That I need to get to know someone very well before I commit.  And honestly, I would never again become deeply involved with someone who has experienced that level of trauma.  That may sound cold, but it's the truth.  Perhaps you need to create that kind of boundary for yourself - you have repeatedly chosen traumatized partners, and the result is the same.  The real question is, what is it in YOU that draws you to traumatized people?

Do I give off some kind of signal that attracts emotionally damaged people to me? Is it because they know I'm "safe"? Like children, do they find in me the security that they may have lacked with their own parents? If so, why me?

Funny, my T and I had this very conversation this week. I do think there might be something in me that is drawn to more unstable women.  I described being in a bar recently with a large group of people - there were both single people and couples.  One woman was there with her boyfriend... .but every time I happened to turn her way she purposely caught my eye.  After a few times I found myself intrigued ("hmmmm... .wonder what that's about... .wonder what her story is? Sure would be interesting to find out... ." - but then I stopped myself cold. Crazy eyes!  My exBPDgf lured me the exact same way! Staring at me intensely - repeatedly - in different situations (we "loosely" worked together) - almost uncomfortably so - until I stared thinking... ."hmmmm... .wonder what that's about... .wonder what her story is? Sure would be interesting to find out... ."

Oh, I found out alright.

So... .WTF? Why am I intrigued by women like this?

My T then asked me how I think other people see me, and I said that I think I come across as a "strong" - assertive, calm, intelligent, confident, articulate.  She then asked me to think about the type of person that might be drawn to that, saying that people are like magnets - they are like opposing forces that attract.

Hmmmmm... .

If we do sometimes seek what we lack in relationships with other people, then it comes as no surprise that more "unstable" people might be attracted to my "stability" - my strength and my strong sense of myself.

But the bigger question is, why am I attracted to THEM?

Your focus in the above quote is what attracted them to you.  But it takes two to tango, my friend.  I think you need to flip your focus.

[Pingo]

Have I unconsciously internalized my own mother's unresolved grief over losing her mother as a child? Is it manifesting in my life outwardly by my "adoption" of other "motherless girls" as partners? Am I a surrogate mother without knowing it?

I would explore this further.  When I read your first post this stood out to me the most.  I think you are on to something.

Am I doomed to repeat this pattern until I die?

Absolutely not!  Once there is an awareness there is choice.  You see the patterns, you cannot ignore them now!

[eyvindr]

Grey, jhk, Pingo --

Thank you all for the great and thoughtful feedback. It's helping me way more than most of the therapists I've had over the years! I really appreciate your honesty and directness -- I'd like to get to the bottom of this for myself.

Lots of threads here, and I've been all over these boards, so I wanted to pull in some recent ideas that have landed in other threads, to keep this discussion focused and moving forward. I'll colorize or in some way highlight the bits that feel most important.



I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be. I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense (like those videos I've seen of 4-wheelers slowly approaching some precarious obstacle, creeping ever closer to the edge before beginning to crawl their way over sharp rocks and steep crevices). Could it be as simple -- and as confusing -- as this: I know why I keep staying in these r-ships (I think I can fix them), but I've learned that I ought to leave them (because I'm not getting my needs met, and I can't fix them) -- but I stay anyways -- ? I know that still doesn't answer the question about why I'm attracted to women who appear healthy, but who are troubled. (And anytime I suggest that something here may be simple, my fellow BPDFam members pretty consistently dismiss it outright.)

jhk and I were over on the "Why do we recycle?" thread, and I had an epiphany -- I'll re-post it here:

Trog: I recycled because I loved her and listened to the words as opposed to the actions. I hoped, because I had a pretty good control of other situations, that things would improve simply due to my effort.

jhk: OMG Trog this is EXACTLY how I thought... .and how ___ed up is that, huh? I really believed that I had enough love for her and stability & strength in myself that I could "fix" the problems in our relationship.

Me: Pretty presumptuous of us, right? Though, in our defense -- I think it's pretty reasonable to feel like you can influence the outcome of a situation. It's our rational minds simply doing their rational thing. Especially if in most areas of our lives, we've demonstrated the capacity to be flexible, understanding, reasonable -- we don't need to sell ourselves short here. Yes, it's pretty arrogant to think we can control another person's behavior -- but finding out you have a partner who is (or may be) suffering from BPD is a bit of a wildcard.

I think where we go wrong is when we begin to fully realize that this is what we're dealing with, and still attempt to apply reason to solving it. Because it's an existential emotional problem, not a logical one. That's exactly the junction where the overwhelming frustration and a sense of helplessness kicked in for me. Because we love our partners, we don't want to give up. In my case, I tried even harder to make it work, by redoubling my efforts to apply reason to it -- which I can see now was a completely futile strategy. I can even see where that would irritate and frustrate the hell out of even a rational partner.

I think I'm beginning to see a pattern in my approach to this. When I missed red flags during the "getting to know each other" phase, that set the stage for falling in love with my partner. Once I began realizing that those weird little behaviors, seemingly out of proportion emotional responses to things actually were flags, I needed to see them for what they were -- signs of dysregulation -- versus assuming they were just little things that could be resolved with reason.

I think in my relationships with troubled women, I've diminished red flags in a unconscious effort to convince myself that I could still make the relationship work. Because my hopes to have the kind of ideal r-ship that I wanted with the people I was in love with was very high, because I was very in love with them.

[/color]

Here's another entry from the File under: "I can fix anything!" folder -- from over on the "Why do I always want to play the rescuer?" thread:

I think I must have a twisted attraction to clusterbees, too (it sounds like a pretty good candy). What has puzzled me for years is that the thought of being a rescuer, in this sense, literally makes my skin crawl! It gives me the heebie-jeebies! I don't know what makes it so severe.

I was raised and have been conditioned to be responsible, and to take care of myself. Having done that ever since being on my own, I know it's hard, but I accept is as how life is. I've never expected anyone else to take care of me or to cover for my obligations -- no one. Granted, it's an appealing thought -- but you just don't shirk your responsibilities. You earn what you have, you pay for what you want, you aren't entitled to anything, you aren't better than anyone else, and, if you can help, you should. And you can only be in a position to help if you've got your own life under control. That's what I was taught, that's how I've experienced life -- and it seems to work pretty good that way, really... .

So, when I meet people who give off some vibe that they think it's ok to lean on other people for everything, as opposed to just when they need help, or who feel like their gender or social status or particular set of personal challenges entitles them to treatment that I don't expect for myself, it really rubs me the wrong way. Seriously, it makes me want to run! Yet, every long-term serious relationship that I've ever had has been with a partner who, after the initial infatuation, has turned out to be either completely irresponsible, or only responsible in some areas -- and, where they haven't pulled their own weight, they've been quite comfortable leading me to believe that for them this kind of stuff falls squarely under the heading of "BF duties." Each of these women initially presented themselves as being together, happy, independent, secure -- all of them! Some were worse than other, but none of them were who they pretended they were.

Maybe the trick is, when I offer to help someone, I need to look for signs that they try to refuse, instead of immediately taking me up on the offer. Maybe that would indicate to me that, while my offer is sincere, they wish that they could handle it on their own, and already had a plan. That could at least show me that, even if they eventually did accept my help, they appreciated it, and understood that it wasn't something they were entitled to. It's something that someone gives you, out of care, concern and love -- not because they want something from you.

[/color]

Does this help? Raise more questions? Give us some direction? Narrow anything down? I know you can't answer my questions for me -- I have to do that myself. But it actually helps me for you to toss your theories out for me to consider -- I feel like I have a lot of information, but I'm still not connecting the dots for myself. I'm working really hard here, but the insights aren't coming home to roost yet. Thanks again for hanging in there with me.

[eyvindr]

I just read this and it really resonated with me -- from over on the "BPD and npd at same time, really?" thread:

Right now the focus is on myself with regard to the damage done to me by my mother, and how said damage has affected what I "see" regarding woman when I "look at them." It's odd ... .I'm not "attracted to" what would be "normal" women. I treat them on a totally cognitive scale (no emotional picture at all), and interest in them is based on how they think - and it really doesn't go beyond "friends."

However, you show me a woman in "pain" and every light on my empathy board goes on. When the BPD woman popped up, I was like - pain ... .I get it ... .I see you. No pain? I don't get it.

Except for the damage from mom, this totally resonated with me. It's like, unless there's some underlying pain or trauma, I don't "feel" a connection. WHY? So, if someone's normal, and they've had a relatively peaceful, safe life, free from exposure to damaging emotional episodes -- in other words, exactly the kind of person my brain keeps telling me I want to end up with -- I'm wired to not find them at all appealing? wth? What would make me unconsciously avoid the very people I feel I could be happy with?

[Pingo]

Could it be as simple -- and as confusing -- as this: I know why I keep staying in these r-ships (I think I can fix them), but I've learned that I ought to leave them (because I'm not getting my needs met, and I can't fix them) -- but I stay anyways -- ?

What are you getting out of the role as the one who must 'fix' these r/ss?  What feelings are you avoiding by focusing on being the 'fixer' or what needs are you fulfilling by being the 'fixer'?  How do you define yourself when you realise you cannot fix the r/s and have to walk away? 

I'm asking you these questions because I see myself in this role too and these are the questions I've been asking myself lately.

For me?  What do I get out of the role?  I get to be the compassionate one who is forever understanding and can prove my self-worth by caring, even at the expense of my own needs (martyr?).  What am I avoiding?  Dealing with my own pain and feelings of failure and unworthiness by focusing on his dysfunction and illness.  How did I define myself when I walked away?  At first, a failure.  A fool.  And this is what kept me there so long.  I hated the idea of failing yet another r/s. 

I was raised and have been conditioned to be responsible, and to take care of myself. Having done that ever since being on my own, I know it's hard, but I accept is as how life is. I've never expected anyone else to take care of me or to cover for my obligations -- no one. Granted, it's an appealing thought -- but you just don't shirk your responsibilities. You earn what you have, you pay for what you want, you aren't entitled to anything, you aren't better than anyone else, and, if you can help, you should. And you can only be in a position to help if you've got your own life under control. That's what I was taught, that's how I've experienced life -- and it seems to work pretty good that way, really... .

I can totally relate to this, it's how I have lived my life too.  From all the reading and learning I have been doing, I can see that this can lead to being a defense mechanism as a way to hide our vulnerability.  In order to need others or accept help from others, we have to show our vulnerability.  This has been very difficult for me.  I'm just starting to practise 'allowing' myself to lean on others.  It's the only way to true intimacy, allowing people in.

I just read this and it really resonated with me -- from over on the "BPD and npd at same time, really?" thread:

Right now the focus is on myself with regard to the damage done to me by my mother, and how said damage has affected what I "see" regarding woman when I "look at them." It's odd ... .I'm not "attracted to" what would be "normal" women. I treat them on a totally cognitive scale (no emotional picture at all), and interest in them is based on how they think - and it really doesn't go beyond "friends."

However, you show me a woman in "pain" and every light on my empathy board goes on. When the BPD woman popped up, I was like - pain ... .I get it ... .I see you. No pain? I don't get it.

Except for the damage from mom, this totally resonated with me. It's like, unless there's some underlying pain or trauma, I don't "feel" a connection. WHY? So, if someone's normal, and they've had a relatively peaceful, safe life, free from exposure to damaging emotional episodes -- in other words, exactly the kind of person my brain keeps telling me I want to end up with -- I'm wired to not find them at all appealing? wth? What would make me unconsciously avoid the very people I feel I could be happy with?

For me, it isn't the underlying pain or trauma... .it is the 'need'.  My first husband had underlying pain and trauma but he didn't 'need' me.  And I didn't go into 'rescuing' mode with him.  Although his underlying pain came through in his inability to deal with anger, I never felt the urge to fix him. I wanted him to fix himself.  But it was not a codependent r/s.  Not coincidentally, it wasn't a very passionate r/s either.  I never felt the bond I did with my uBPDexh.  Even after 10 yrs together.

[jhkbuzz]

I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be.  I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense... .

I know this EXACT feeling.  When I finally do put my finger on it, I suspect it will feel like the the biggest ":)UH!" moment in the world!  Like, "how did I not see that/figure that out?"!  And, although I'm not completely sure about this, my sense is that it will be the very thing that sets me free.

I don't mean to be a bummer here... .but I think the "thing" that you're trying to put your finger on is actually something that you are hiding from yourself.  I'm not sure that you will be able to uncover it by yourself - I really think you may need a therapist to engage in that kind of work.

We seem to be very similar, you and I.  Intelligent, rational thinkers who think deeply.  Analyze things from every angle possible.  Probably over-thinkers.  And with all of that thinking I can STILL show up for a session with my T and she will offer an insight, or a way of considering an issue that has never ever occurred to me. In the 6 months I've been seeing her I've become convinced that there is a good chance that, in partnership with her, I will get to the root of what has kept me hooked and in pain over this failed r/s. Not her "working her magic."  Not me sitting at home (or on these boards) trying to analyze myself.  But in partnership with her, in a committed, caring therapeutic relationship. And I think it will be the hardest thing I've ever done because I suspect I will uncover things that I've been hiding from myself for decades.

What has puzzled me for years is that the thought of being a rescuer, in this sense, literally makes my skin crawl! It gives me the heebie-jeebies! I don't know what makes it so severe.

I was raised and have been conditioned to be responsible, and to take care of myself. Having done that ever since being on my own, I know it's hard, but I accept is as how life is. I've never expected anyone else to take care of me or to cover for my obligations -- no one. Granted, it's an appealing thought -- but you just don't shirk your responsibilities. You earn what you have, you pay for what you want, you aren't entitled to anything, you aren't better than anyone else, and, if you can help, you should. And you can only be in a position to help if you've got your own life under control. That's what I was taught, that's how I've experienced life -- and it seems to work pretty good that way, really... .

So, when I meet people who give off some vibe that they think it's ok to lean on other people for everything, as opposed to just when they need help, or who feel like their gender or social status or particular set of personal challenges entitles them to treatment that I don't expect for myself, it really rubs me the wrong way. Seriously, it makes me want to run!

I feel EXACTLY the same.  That's been one of the biggest "puzzles" for me - how I ended up in a co-dependent relationship with someone when it truly goes against my entire belief system, and how I've lived my life.

[jhkbuzz]

Could it be as simple -- and as confusing -- as this: I know why I keep staying in these r-ships (I think I can fix them), but I've learned that I ought to leave them (because I'm not getting my needs met, and I can't fix them) -- but I stay anyways -- ?

What are you getting out of the role as the one who must 'fix' these r/ss?  What feelings are you avoiding by focusing on being the 'fixer' or what needs are you fulfilling by being the 'fixer'?  How do you define yourself when you realise you cannot fix the r/s and have to walk away?  

I'm asking you these questions because I see myself in this role too and these are the questions I've been asking myself lately.

For me?  What do I get out of the role?  I get to be the compassionate one who is forever understanding and can prove my self-worth by caring, even at the expense of my own needs (martyr?).  What am I avoiding?  :)ealing with my own pain and feelings of failure and unworthiness by focusing on his dysfunction and illness.  How did I define myself when I walked away?  At first, a failure.  A fool.  And this is what kept me there so long.  I hated the idea of failing yet another r/s.  

I'm sure you've both read "The Three Faces of the Vicitm" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

From the article:  "A starting gate rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.

SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others."

Food for thought... .

As I look back at the beginning of my r/s with as much brutal self reflection as I can muster, I can see that it made me feel really, really good to help this semi-helpless woman that I had grown to love.  She seemed happy with my help.  Her family even appreciated how stable her life started becoming once I came into the picture.  All of that was a HUGE boost to my self esteem. I begin to shape my identity around it... .and spent more and more time focused on her "stuff" than on myself.  Not a healthy way to exist in a r/s.

[Pingo]

I'm sure you've both read "The Three Faces of the Vicitm" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

From the article:  "A starting gate rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.

SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others."

Food for thought... .

Truthfully none of my r/ss before my uBPDexh were overly codependent.  Not saying they weren't dysfunctional but I wouldn't have classified myself as the 'rescuer' although I slipped into that role from time to time.

Just before I met my uBPDexh I had a big life-changing event between myself, my mother & my teenage daughter.  Long story short my mother betrayed me, I lost total control of my daughter and my whole identity was in question.  After all, I had based so much of my self-worth in my role as the 'good mother' AND the 'good daughter'.  I definitely was in 'victim' mode, a place I hated!  I had never felt more angry and lost.  Then along comes my exh, he needed me.  He appreciated me.  I slipped into rescue mode very easily.  And out of victim mode.  Now of course we didn't stay there.  He eventually moved into persecutor.  And then he went back and forth between victim-persecutor while I went back and forth between rescuer-victim.  Quite the dance we did for 4 yrs.

[jhkbuzz]

I'm sure you've both read "The Three Faces of the Vicitm" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

From the article:  "A starting gate rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.

SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others."

Food for thought... .

Truthfully none of my r/ss before my uBPDexh were overly codependent.  Not saying they weren't dysfunctional but I wouldn't have classified myself as the 'rescuer' although I slipped into that role from time to time.

Just before I met my uBPDexh I had a big life-changing event between myself, my mother & my teenage daughter.  Long story short my mother betrayed me, I lost total control of my daughter and my whole identity was in question.  After all, I had based so much of my self-worth in my role as the 'good mother' AND the 'good daughter'.  I definitely was in 'victim' mode, a place I hated!  I had never felt more angry and lost.  Then along comes my exh, he needed me.  He appreciated me.  I slipped into rescue mode very easily.  And out of victim mode.  Now of course we didn't stay there.  He eventually moved into persecutor.  And then he went back and forth between victim-persecutor while I went back and forth between rescuer-victim.  Quite the dance we did for 4 yrs.

I was also in a very vulnerable place in my life when I met my ex... .I think it would be fair to say that I was having an identity crisis as well.  I had belonged to a close knit Christian church in the 10 years previous to meeting my g/f.  I had become unhappy in the church (for reasons too long and complex to explain here) - but leaving would have meant leaving behind all of the close friendships I had developed - and, having moved from where I grew up, they were the only friendships I had.  The thought of leaving was scary... .but then I met my ex and it helped me to break away from the church. She loved me, really seem to need me, and had a daughter that I began to parent.  All of this gave me a sense of identity and purpose at a time that I desperately needed it.

And I, like you, had never been in a rescuing/enabling relationship before this one. But I can see how a "perfect storm" of her needs and my needs came together at that particular time, 8 years ago.

[HappyNihilist]

I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be.  I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense... .

I know this EXACT feeling.  When I finally do put my finger on it, I suspect it will feel like the the biggest ":)UH!" moment in the world!  Like, "how did I not see that/figure that out?"!  And, although I'm not completely sure about this, my sense is that it will be the very thing that sets me free.

I don't mean to be a bummer here... .but I think the "thing" that you're trying to put your finger on is actually something that you are hiding from yourself. 

This is the complete, full, absolute, beautiful, wonderful truth of the whole crazy mess.

If you are open to listening, you will hear the truths that your self is trying to tell you. It will break your heart and make you feel more raw and shattered and small than you ever thought possible... .and then it will be sublimated into freedom, acceptance, and light.

And the world will keep on turning, just as it always did, but you will never be the same. 

[jhkbuzz]

I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be.  I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense... .

I know this EXACT feeling.  When I finally do put my finger on it, I suspect it will feel like the the biggest ":)UH!" moment in the world!  Like, "how did I not see that/figure that out?"!  And, although I'm not completely sure about this, my sense is that it will be the very thing that sets me free.

I don't mean to be a bummer here... .but I think the "thing" that you're trying to put your finger on is actually something that you are hiding from yourself. 

This is the complete, full, absolute, beautiful, wonderful truth of the whole crazy mess.

If you are open to listening, you will hear the truths that your self is trying to tell you. It will break your heart and make you feel more raw and shattered and small than you ever thought possible... .and then it will be sublimated into freedom, acceptance, and light.

And the world will keep on turning, just as it always did, but you will never be the same. 

Thank you for this.

My fear of uncovering 'whatever it is' is now less than my fear of living with the emotional pain I've been in for the past six months... .I want to heal.

But you want to hear something perplexing?  There is a small part of me that is afraid of the healing, because once it comes I know that I will look at my ex and realize the bond between us has been completely severed.  I will see her as just another person that I used to know, without all the intense emotionality that I once connected to her.  And I think that makes me sad because it will be the final, irrevocable goodbye.

Strange, no?

[Grey Kitty]

Here's a question for you... .all of you rescuers.

What do YOU get out of being in a r/s where you are the rescuer?

What about it feels 'comfortable' or 'normal' to you, and how far back can you find that feeling/experience?

Consider: You wouldn't keep doing it if it wasn't 'working' for you in some way or other!

[eyvindr]

I think about this question all the time, in the hope of gaining insight.

What do YOU get out of being in a r/s where you are the rescuer?

What about it feels 'comfortable' or 'normal' to you, and how far back can you find that feeling/experience?

The easy answer -- the one that comes to mind without even needing to think about it -- is control, a sense of things moving from disorder and chaos to peace and stability. That's what I bring to these relationships -- and it's what seemed to be so valued in the early phases. I was led to believe -- correction, I allowed myself to believe my partners when they told me that I brought them something they'd been looking for, and lacking -- that sense of everything being ok. Which certainly seems like a good thing.

Let me add -- if the scenario I was presented with had been more accurate (like, if these people had shown me that one hour they were frantically working on building a foundation, their minds single-mindedly focused on achieving a positive goal, only to be followed the next hour by jumping in their car and repeatedly ramming into all of the support beams they'd just spent an hour setting, and then crying about the mess, and then ranting about the reasons that it happened), I wouldn't have offered help and support. I can spot a sinking ship when I see one -- if it's sinking, and not being artificially suspended in the water by some sort of unseen temporary flotation device!

What feels comfortable? Not much, really. More like familiar. I've mentioned before, I'm the oldest of 8 kids. I was raised to look out for other people, to think of others before myself, to pay attention to what people who may not be aware of what they need (children) may actually need, to protect, to set an example. All of that stuff is normal for me -- but I recognize it for what it is, I don't necessarily enjoy it. But when a situation calls for it, I can do it. It comes naturally to me. I don't seek out situations where I can be helpful -- they just sometimes happen. I don't avoid them, but I don't go out of my way to find them. Example -- the other morning, I was on my way to a meeting. It was cold, it had snowed and the sidewalks hadn't been shoveled yet. I saw a person walking down a path with a pair of crutches -- but I'd already kind of driven past them before my brain had sorted out what was going on, and I didn't have any time to spare on the way to my meeting. I was conscious of the possibility that I might be able to assist them, but I was aware that they seemed to be ok, and that it wasn't my duty to help them. Had I been in a position to offer them a ride, I would have -- but I wasn't, and I didn't, and I don't feel badly about it.

[billypilgrim]

What do YOU get out of being in a r/s where you are the rescuer?

I have realized that I derived a lot of my self worth through providing and taking care of her.  I needed to be needed in order to feel like I had value.  Which is probably why her leaving hurt so bad.  I didn't just lose my wife, I lost my purpose.  Or at least what I had come to learn was my purpose. I felt listless, adrift at sea with no sails and no one around to hear me call for help.  How can the helper actually need help?  

What about it feels 'comfortable' or 'normal' to you, and how far back can you find that feeling/experience?

It goes back to my NPD/alcoholic grandfather.  The patriarch of our family.  Manipulative.  Controlling.  Abusive (physically and emotionally).  These behaviors that I now see as crazy were normal and familiar to me.  Things were way too comfortable, way too quickly.  And while it feels great at the time, it's not anything that is built to last.  Hence the large number of missed red flags, though to be fair, I caught some.  I just usually excused them or explained them away.  Which probably explains how I've dated not one but two clusterbs, I married the second one.  

But I've got this figured out.  To me the tough part wasn't coming to this realization but changing behavior and changing my natural instinct.  Feelings are fickle.  They are slow to catch up to what you know and worse, they are stubborn.  They don't always listen to what we know, which makes changing things that come naturally so very difficult.  How do I learn to derive self worth from within rather than through helping, rescuing, or providing for others?  How do I learn to not allow guilt or feelings of not doing enough run my life?  How do I become less self critical so that I don't automatically assume responsibility for things that are not my fault or responsibility?  How do I stand up for myself against behaviors that most would find intolerable?   How do I put myself first?  These are the sorts of questions that I'm wrestling with.  Some days are easy, some days are tough and discouraging.  

But I think it boils down to the fact that I'm just one person.  Other people's ills are not my problems.  And there's nothing wrong with me feeling that way.

[jhkbuzz]

I needed to be needed in order to feel like I had value.  Which is probably why her leaving hurt so bad.  I didn't just lose my wife, I lost my purpose.  Or at least what I had come to learn was my purpose. I felt listless, adrift at sea with no sails and no one around to hear me call for help.  How can the helper actually need help?  

Perhaps because the helper is giving the things they are, in actuality, hoping to receive.

[eyvindr]

Why not? It's the Golden Rule, isn't it? And from any angle, it does make sense -- treat others as you wish to be treated. Pretty consistent across all major belief systems.

Perhaps because the helper is giving the things they are, in actuality, hoping to receive.

I get frustrated with the self-analysis side of this healing process, because judging from the bulk of the literature out there and the thousands of posts shared in here, it seems like when you're in a r-ship with a partner with some kind of personality disorder, all bets are off.

For the most part, I see good, open-minded, well-intentioned loving partners here who just wound up with troubled partners. So often, it seems to keep boiling down primarily to one thing: If the person we thought we were with really was who they presented themselves to be, the relationship would have worked. But they weren't who they pretended to be. And I don't know if they did that intentionally or unconsciously -- I'm pretty convinced it's a mixture of both. I don't think most of them are evil, I think all of them are sick, some to a greater deal than others. Sometimes I think the best way out of this is to chalk it up to life and just move on.

[Grey Kitty]

For the most part, I see good, open-minded, well-intentioned loving partners here who just wound up with troubled partners. So often, it seems to keep boiling down primarily to one thing: If the person we thought we were with really was who they presented themselves to be, the relationship would have worked.

I'm not buying it. (This is the PI board, we get to probe deeply and challenge you)

You describe it as if it was bad luck. Once, I'd believe. Twice, I dunno. Three times? Not likely. Four times, without having a single significant relationship someone who was emotionally healthy. Nuh-Uh.

You are choosing to get involved with women like these. You are pretending that it isn't so at the beginning, but that is just part of your pattern.

If the woman was really emotionally healthy and normal... .evidence says you wouldn't be interested in her.

And further... .conjecture here... .whatever it is about you that drives you toward women like this... .probably makes women who are emotionally healthy and normal decide that they aren't interested in you either.

People tend to form relationships with somebody at a similar level of differentiation and a similar level of emotional/mental health. Even if one of the two appears to be more healthy/functional than the other.

Until you see YOUR role in these dysfunctional relationships, and change it, you are not likely to have a significantly better one.

[jhkbuzz]

Why not? It's the Golden Rule, isn't it? And from any angle, it does make sense -- treat others as you wish to be treated. Pretty consistent across all major belief systems.

Perhaps because the helper is giving the things they are, in actuality, hoping to receive.

The issue isn't so much about treating another person the way you want to be treated... .that is a healthy, life affirming, love-filled way to conduct a relationship if BOTH people are living by the golden rule.  No argument with that.

The real issue is of IDENTITY:

I have realized that I derived a lot of my self worth through providing and taking care of her.  I needed to be needed in order to feel like I had value.  Which is probably why her leaving hurt so bad.  I didn't just lose my wife, I lost my purpose.  Or at least what I had come to learn was my purpose. I felt listless, adrift at sea with no sails and no one around to hear me call for help.

No one should so completely 'lose' their identity in someone else.  

And no judgement from me; I did it too.  But the more time that goes by the more unhealthy I recognize it to be.

[eyvindr]

Good thoughts, here.

Grey -- appreciate your feedback, as always. I think you may be a little off on your def of the PI boards, though -- they're about each of us probing deeply and challenging ourselves. Sure, we should ask questions -- they keep things moving, and they keep those of us who are trying here to uncover the underlying factors that have led us into and out of these challenging relationship from lapsing into rumination or, worse, from undermining our own realizations. Because sometimes it's as easy to talk yourself out of a good thought or idea as it is to talk yourself into a bad one.

Or, in other words, you don't have to buy it. Not important to me. I have to buy it. We get to ask each other questions, not to decide whether or not each others answers are "correct."

Back to looking for my role.

[eyvindr]

Continuing to make progress. Wanted to compile some excerpts from threads that have led me to more clarity on why I'm attracted to troubled people, and why I've stayed far beyond the point when the proverbial writing on the r-ship walls was the first thing I saw every day. Mainly want to keep all of the stuff in my own search in more or less one place.

glaciercats --

Sorry to hear you're going through this. You just described classic "splitting black" behavior:

I was wondering if people suffering from BPD actually believe their own lies?  It seems like they tell so many.  From little white lies to huge painful lies... .

It's like she has no perception of what's real and what's imaginary.  She has made members of her family and past friends and partners out to be these horrible people.  She is so convincing with her stories and when you look into her eyes it really looks like she believes these things have happened to her.  It's scary really.

Deep down she really seems to have a good heart, but I can not believe anything that she has ever told me unless I witnessed it first hand.  This has really done so much damage to me.  I am trying to repair myself one day at a time!

And that last bit, where you feel that you've adopted some of the dysfunction, we refer to as "fleas." (Not the best term, but it gets the point across.) Here's another example of that --

I feel like my mind is totally warped now.  Exactly like the Twilight Zone!  Even after everything I went through I can't stop worrying about her.  Deep down under all of these demons she really does have a good heart.  I so wish she would seek medical treatment for this. But I can no longer be her doormat no matter how much I care.

I feel ya. I feel the same way about my ex -- she has the capacity to be a great partner. Her dad and I were talking once, during a bipolar episode, and he said, "It's a shame. Except for the mental illness, she would be a gem." It's just sad.

enlighten me makes a very good observation:

where they unplanned or just not planned by you?



One thing I found with my exes is that if they want something they can go to great lengths to get it. My ex wife was supposedly on the pill but I caught her after sex with her feet up against the wall trying to fall pregnant.

During my break-up periods with my ex, I witnessed her share such a wide array of nonsense that it made my head spin. From slightly rewritten bits of our personal history, to outright fabrications included solely to bolster her "Victim Princess" image, to incredibly hurtful revisions of some actual happy things that we did together, cast in a dark and ugly light. She essentially attacked even the beautiful parts of our relationship -- nothing was sacred. Absolute scarred earth policy.

As I learned more about this illness, and heard others sharing their stories, I began to better understand the whole "painting black" thing. Helped me to understand that, as enlighten me points out above -- sometimes your role in what you think is a 2-person discussion is really overstated. We assume when we're talking to our partner -- particularly about important life choices -- that we're actually involved. But often I think my ex had her own ideas, and regardless of what I said, if she didn't agree with me, she'd stick to her "plan" regardless of what I thought, said, or indicated was important to me. Very often it felt like she just took for granted that she knew better, and knew best, for both of us -- which is also not uncommon in people with PDs, a delusional sense of grandeur. My ex was stuck on being a know-it-all -- really to an annoying point. And, if she had any doubts as to whether I'd believe outright something she needed me to believe, she'd automatically include statements like "You can ask anyone," "Three therapists have all agreed with me on this... ." "Any woman would agree... ." and, my all-time favorite, "You can call my doctor yourself and ask her if you don't believe me." Seriously annoying.

songbook -- this is terrific:

Deep down, we do all have hearts, minds, and spirit.

We each have chances to rise above our problems, too.

Disordered or not. Handicapped or not. Etc.

Many do not face themselves until there's real adversity.

But those who do can overcome even the worst of it.

With help or not, it's on each of us to take whichever steps.

My now-ex has every positive possibility available to her.

Her pains and fears have warped her own reality most of all.

All I can do is wish her the best and let go. The rest is up to her.

[charred]

Except for the damage from mom, this totally resonated with me. It's like, unless there's some underlying pain or trauma, I don't "feel" a connection. WHY? So, if someone's normal, and they've had a relatively peaceful, safe life, free from exposure to damaging emotional episodes -- in other words, exactly the kind of person my brain keeps telling me I want to end up with -- I'm wired to not find them at all appealing? wth? What would make me unconsciously avoid the very people I feel I could be happy with?

Excellent book on this subject called "A general theory of love"... .you won't like the theory.

Couple observations... a baby's first experience of "love"... is whatever the r/s is between its parents... .and mostly what it gets from mom's behavior.

Later, that template of what love is, filters out non-mom/non-parent relating people... they seem blah, but sparks fly when someone gets past your filters.

So... with a BPD r/s, you have someone that has issues, and they start out mirroring you, love-bombing and taking so much interest in you... hanging on every word even... that it works to really develop a strong attachment to them. The strongest kind, a primary attachment. Consciously... you see them as your soul mate, your dream girl... but you react to them like the child in a parent/child r/s. Put them on a pedestal, think they can do no wrong (till that notion is beat out of you by the r/s)... and question yourself rather than their behavior any time its baffling. A breakup is devastating, like the death of a parent (but no one understands... they see that you finally split with that flake, why don't you go out ... maybe you will get lucky)... but your grieving a loss way out of proportion to the r/s.

I took the above theory (which is true and led me to realize Freud was brilliant)... and just saw the part about the BPD person doing bonding a certain way... ignoring that I was looking for someone like my mother psychologically.  My mother, had her mother die when she was 5, leaving her as the oldest ... to raise her two younger sisters. Her father dropped her off at her grandparents... and as a result she was traumatized, told to be quiet and ended up really being a waif BPD. So... in my case, I am looking for and responding to pwBPD, more than any others. Father is malignant NPD... I respond to those a bit, but not as much. Learned that if you come from a family with some PD like issues, chances are about 95% that you were affected by it, and it will play out in r/s issues. Especially when it comes to who you feel crazy sparks for. I found I cannot pursue anyone I have the instant love at first sight reaction too with sparks. For years my friends used to try to figure out if I attracted crazy women, or if I had normal ones and drove them crazy. It was the former. Magnet for disorder.

Wish I could say I am the only one like that, but ... if your parents had issues, you are likely to end up with same ones... we absorb about 70% of their makeup... and that can be a lot of baggage.

[eyvindr]

Cliff's notes:  Poor choices likely tied to unconscious labeling of insecure women as archetypes, based on childhood models and impressions.

OC --

Thank much for elaborating.  Again, wow --

It's the "raising from a child" aspect that seems to be key. In my case, all I ever knew was pain ... .so today, 60 years later, all I vividly "see" (regarding women) is pain. If you are "normal" - I don't know what I'm looking at ... .there's no "connection." I'm guessing that if my mother was loving and caring and huggy, I would see THAT when I looked at a woman - but I don't know what that's like.

Just wow. This very much could be it for me -- I "get" this on a direct level. Trying to determine specifically the source. I suffered no abuse or neglect from my mom, but I don't recall her has being "huggy" when we were kids -- likely because there were just too many of us. Never questioned that I was loved by either parents, but I can see where its a more kind of practical love, kind of taken for granted. It helps me see that where, on my end, I've consistently been told by partners something along the lines of "you're inscrutable" -- and I've even argued that it's overwhelming to feel like I have to blatantly demonstrate my love all the time -- often at a moment when I'm feeling both present, committed and warm towards my partner.

But I'm starting, I think, to piece together this "image" thing -- feels more like an archetype glitch, if you will. I tell myself I want a smart, secure, independent, happy woman, but I don't know what she looks like, because my mother -- loving and kind as she is -- was also insecure, dependent on her family and then my father, and often unhappy. So, despite their outward behaviors, the women I gravitate to in r-ships are the ones who I "recognize" as fitting the archetype that my psyche has created for "woman," based on my mother.

Can this be correct? It SURE as hell would solve my utter confusion over why I would be picking these women without any serious trauma in my own background!

[eyvindr]

This helps me a lot --

When our emotions are not validated, we tend to stop using those parts of ourselves that we need in life to help us make good choices. If your family of origin was not focused on how you felt, you might have trouble identifying a whole range of emotions that healthy people use to create genuine intimacy and connection with others.

I grew up in a household where the "love" for each other was accepted -- but also taken for granted, in that there wasn't a lot of demonstrative actions, to my knowledge. I do think, more and more, that this has played into my r-ships. Thanks for sharing, livedandlearned.

[Perfidy]

You're a guy. You did all the normal guy things. You thought with the little head. You're human. We get it. Lol! Who hasn't done that? Just find the beautiful person that you are. That's all anyone can do.

[eyvindr]

That's funny! I think. Are you suggesting that I simply goofed, and picked someone based on superficial physical traits? No more to it than that? I really would like to believe that, but I worry that there's more to it.

[eyvindr]

Nutshell: Wrote this post a few years ago, after the second major split with my uBPDxgf. Did a pretty good job of putting into words how I best understand how BPD presented in my ex's behavior.

Really sorry to hear that you're going through this, Dr. Me2.

It's hard enough to get through a break-up with a pwBPD -- let alone a divorce. And, when there are kids involved, well... .in my experience, it connects you with a whole new level of vulnerability.

Your comment on your s2b-ex's cycling is what's prompting me to reply -- but there's so much going on here aside from that... .

Just a few hours ago, she sent me an email threaten me that if I don't start the divorce proceedings she will start poisoning the kids against me until I breakdown. She is determined to inflict as much pain as possible. I am in pain but I am not sure if it is because my partner is dying (as she became a different person) or part of me is.

I knew if I stayed under such circumstances, the uncontrollable behavior and escalation will reach a level will both regret it. So I left.

It has been already almost 3 woks since I left (temp) the house due to the DV. She asked for NC although she email me to ask for more money.

Right after I went away she set me up for failure, she started to faint, feel numbness, dizzy, etc and turned the tables around blaming me for leaving in the middle of her getting sick and blaming was all my fault.

I was hoping by now she would have returned to baseline or at least heading in that direction so we can have a dialogue, but no, her attacks, blames and accusations have become more pervasive and intense.

The more I don't engage (JADE) or confront her the more dysregulated she becomes. The more I try to support and have empathy the more violent she becomes.

I am seeing a recurrent pattern, her negative projection is triggered by her setting me up for failure (me stepping on a mine field), or by ruminating on the past or blaming me anyway regardless.

I am not sure if she is going crazy or I am or both of us. This is insane!

Certainly posting here and venting out has kept me away from getting worst. Yet, her intensity is becoming unbearable and that is exactly what she wants.

Yes, it sounds like she's still getting what she wants. Even if you aren't voluntarily giving it to her, per se. Remember -- even if you don't provide a PDI with some form of "emotional supply," their illnesses are able to make them believe that you are still a source, through disordered thinking.

You left the house to prevent further escalation -- but the escalation has continued. In other words, "you can't leave me to suffer alone -- you are inseparable from this mess!" In fact, in her mind, she is the victim -- you caused everything to happen. To further make this indisputable to her "audiences" -- not only did you leave her, you left her when she was sick -- which would be in keeping with your "character" in her "play" (remember your audition? you are a heartless b*stard, likely prone to abuse, as well, no?).

She demands that you stop communicating with her -- then asks you for money. In other words, "don't talk to me unless I need something." That is an acceptable, rational agreement in her mind.

You do have it figured out, though -- anything you try to do the right way can and most likely will be flipped over and used, by her, as evidence of how much you continue to do wrong. If you don't JADE, you're a cold-hearted beast who ignores her. If you support her, you're a manipulative monster who is feeding off her emotions because you want something (probably sex, or control of the children).

You aren't going crazy, Dr.Me2. You're just being observant, and objective -- you're seeing reality, as it is, with a normal, healthy mind. Unlike your wife, who is seeing reality as she fabricates it to match up to her script. You feel crazy because you're trying to make sense of it -- and it doesn't make sense. (That's why it's called "crazy-making behavior" -- it makes us feel like we're going crazy -- in fact, we are, if we begin to accept it as reality.) It makes no sense. It doesn't and won't ever make any sense. You are getting a front-row view of BPD, uncut and uncensored, my friend. And it's fascinating, and terrifying -- and very dangerous, and hurtful to you. Because you love your kids, and you still love her -- and you probably still sometimes feel like you're just having a really bizarre, really bad nightmare, and are just waiting to wake up. I know.

When I went through what you're going through (divorcing my uBPDexw, fighting for custody of our son), I learned through hard and often humiliating experience that I had to take everything that my ex wife told me with a complete grain of salt. Literally -- I had to learn how to let her words go in one ear and out the other. Those same words that I'd lived for, which I'd taken a vow to always listen to and consider -- I had to teach myself that they weren't much more than noise that sounded like sentences being spoken in English.

You have to try your best to detach with compassion. I see my latest ex going through cycles as well. Her pattern seems to be rapid-cycling at onset of dysregulation -- hates me one minute, can't live without me the next -- which then settles into a long anger phase. When we broke up last year, and she realized it really was a break-up, and not some dramatic argument that would follow the time-worn formula of teary apologies on both sides and make-up sex -- she spent about 2 full months sending me vicious, hateful, accusatory emails, txt msgs and voicemails. Then, suddenly and for reasons I still don't fully understand, she wanted to reconcile. And we did.

Lasted another year before the next complete breakdown. As with the last time, she started rapidly alternating between hating me and attacking me and everything about me and our r-ship -- with poignant longing emails and heartfelt apologies for every single thing she does to cause the r-ship to flounder (those same things which, when I attempt to bring them to her attention, are met with nothing short of outrage). When I consistently held to NC, she then switched into hate-smearing overdrive -- and has continued virtually unabated for about 3 months now. Then, the other day, she said she wants to try again. No idea why -- though she tells me that it's because, "despite everything you've done to me" (this, in her mind, includes physically, emotionally and verbally abusing her, relentlessly criticizing her non-stop, isolating her from her family and friends, and abandoning her while she was in the hospital), she "still loves" me.

Sure, I'd love to make sense of it. A year ago, I would have given anything to believe it -- and I did -- I agreed to reconcile with her and to try again. I stayed in the counseling that we'd started together before we split up -- she didn't. I learned and practiced new communication techniques -- she didn't. I adjusted to her quirks, and opened myself up to trying to understand her issues -- the end result? Eventually, her cycling became a little less frequent (went from every 3-4 days to once a week, to twice a month) -- but it never stopped. And she continued to dodge and evade *her* accountability -- any mood swings are attributed to stress, family, job, money, asthma, PMS, pre-menopause, ADHD, mold, gluten, her daughter's behavior, her daughter's birds, traffic, etc. She still refuses to accept that she has a PD of any kind -- oh, wait, except for D.I.D -- which she feels is completely ok and she's comfortable with it. Surely, I can't think it has anything to do with our struggles... .

Last year, I believed it. This year, I want to believe that it's true -- but I know it's not. Not that she's lying to me -- she believes it. Now. And she'll continue to believe it -- until she believes something else. And I'll lose again. We'll get along just fine, if I basically stay away from her, and we're never intimate. I'm too old for that kind of thing.

They like to believe that the formula is:

Love --> Intimacy --> Love --> Happiness.

And when the bliss is disrupted by the inevitable bump along the love trail, it's smoothed over by Open Communication and Understanding.

What the BPD makes them blind to is the actual formula. As soon as the intimacy line is crossed -- *bam!* It looks more like this:

Intimacy --> Engulfment --> Fear of abandonment --> BPD Partytime!

When the bliss is disrupted --> IT'S YOUR FAULT!

... .when you try to communicate --> IT'S YOUR FAULT!

... .when you try to understand --> IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!

Thing is, and I say this with complete sadness, doc -- it doesn't seem to end until you end it. I feel for you. It sucks.

Hang in there.

e.

[eyvindr]

The first incarnation of this thread, from 2013: "As FOG lifts, more dilemmas revealed"

[eyvindr]

From "Re: So completely confused as to what I should be doing or feeling"

Riddler --

You have to stop ruminating on this crap. No matter what you do or say or don't do or don't say, your ex is always going to have a "comebacK" that will leave you feeling like you're responsible for the whole thing, including the failure. Who cares who read what? -- everything you've said has been honest, right? If the truth hurts, so be it.

I think you want a relationship where you can live in the open light of day, and not subjugate your needs and feelings to a partner who will always put their needs and feelings ahead of everyone else's. It doesn't make her a bad person -- it makes her a bad partner.

Something hit me last night, and it was one of those realizations that just rang out, loud and clear as a bell. I actually thought of you when it hit me -- and everyone else here who struggles with the whole issue of maybe this, maybe that -- maybe if we'd've just been able to have had the exact right response to some specific situation, that all of these issues would just go away.

So, listen -- and see what you think. This is what the universe told me:

We feel like we have to do something, because we know that our partners are struggling with an illness that interferes with their ability to regulate their emotions in a way that would support a steady, peaceful ongoing romantic relationship. So, we don't want to judge them, or blame them, or hold them responsible for their behaviors -- because it's not their fault, due to the illness. It's BPD's fault, not the person's. Which is all great -- it speaks well of us for being compassionate, loving partners. But it keeps us stuck, and thinking that, if we can only learn how to get around the illness, to the real person who we love, then we can fix everything. If we can take them by the hand, and help navigate them through the fog, or at least recognize that it's just fog around us, and nothing real, then we can deal with this.

The problem is that it doesn't change a damned thing. The illness doesn't go away, and it won't go away, or even really improve, probably, without a full-on commitment to long-term therapy and hard, psychic WORK on our partners' parts. And very few of them seem willing to do this. There will be FOG every day -- just some days it will be worse than others.

I think we have a form of survivor guilt. And we need to get over it. This isn't our fault. We didn't cause it, we can't fix it, and we aren't obligated to stick around for roller coaster ride. I don't know about you, but I like sunshine.

[eyvindr]

From: "my shattered heart", I wrote:

Yes, it's a huge leap going from a sliver of hope to no hope at all, a complete letting go.  It's a necessary step, but a very painful one.

Think of it like this. Before, you were sitting on top of a stony precipice -- forgive me for struggling to describe this -- the right words escape me at the moment -- but think of something like this. So, you're on top of one of those spires. You got there by following a little bridge that used to connect it to the rest of the world. Since you arrived, that bridge has fallen down. So, now you're out there -- still surrounded by all this beauty, still able to see the rest of the world that you used to be a part of, except now you're out there, alone, stranded, isolated. It's a great view, but you're completely exposed to the elements, and utterly without any provisions needed to survive.

The only way off is to jump. You know it's going to suck, and you know it's going to hurt. You know you're going to get all cut up and bruised when you hit the ground. But it's the only way off. And, if you don't get off, you will perish up there alone -- you will die of thirst and starvation. The vultures will clean your bones, and then the sun, wind and rain will gradually reduce you to dust.

But, you will jump. Because you want to live. And once you're on the ground, you'll be reconnected to everything you need to stay alive. Including everything you need to heal from your fall. But first, you need to get back on the ground.



Prepare for the grieving process:

• Denial/Shock



• Anger/Frustration



• Depression/Detachment



• Dialogue/Bargaining



• Acceptance

You will go through this, in your own time, in your own way. Something to remember is this -- the hardest part to get through is the depression. If you followed the link and looked at the different diagrams, the ones I think make the most sense are the ones with the loopy helix-type "paths" -- b/c the grieving process tends to be less direct and more circuitous in reality. And every time we hit the depression border -- that's where we tend to cycle back into one of the other stages -- because our unconscious tries to protect us from the pain of the depression. But, until we get through it, we are stuck. You can't get to acceptance without going through the sadness.

Just like you can't get back on the ground and in the flow of a happy, healthy, productive life without taking that leap off the stony precipice and back into the world.

But you can do it. We're all doing it, or trying to, or failing, learning and trying again. But you can do it.

[eyvindr]

From: "We're just not right for each other"

I can totally relate to this.

It's funny, but this is sort of how I feel about me and my ex. We just aren't right for each other. To a certain extent I feel like everything that happened between us was just details. When you boil everything down, the overarching issue is the fact that who she is at her core is just not the sort of person I can be in a healthy relationship with. Nor am I the type of person that is good for her. I've sort of just accepted that it happened, and that it was inevitable from the start because of who we are.

Thanks for sharing, Rise.

[eyvindr]

Fantastic post on how BPD works by cosmonaut, in response to Riddler (my highlights).

Quote from: TheRiddler on Today at 02:35:34 AM

I'm trying to just get this situated in my mind as her being borderline, but some things don't seem to fit. I've read quite a few accounts on these boards and I don't recall one where the pwBPD says the couple should take a break. When she first told me of "the break," she also told me she'd been thinking about it for a while. Aren't people suffering from BPD more impulsive than that? It's confusing.

It is quite common that a partner with BPD will stop the relationship. This is one of the tragic contradictions of the disorder. While pwBPD are terrified of abandonment and desperately seek to prevent it, they also often experience what is known as engulfment. Engulfment is also a terrifying experience, and it is a feeling that they are losing themselves in someone else - that they are being swallowed up and will cease to exist. This is one of the consequences of a pwBPD not having a fully formed self, which many experts believe to be at the very core of the disorder. So, often a pwBPD feels these back and forth swings in relationships between fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment. This is what gives rise to the heartbreaking push/pull dynamic of the disorder. Eventually these fears and emotions can become so overwhelming that the BPD partner leaves the relationship, because they simply have to run from the emotion the only way left.

I can't prove it, but I sincerely believe that many pwBPD enter into relationships with absolute sincerity. They really do love, admire, and desire their partners. They want things to work. They want to live happily ever after. They hope beyond hope that they have found the perfect love they seek who will finally love them forever and complete them. But as the relationship builds and the couple become ever more emotionally intimate, all of the core fears of the disorder become activated. The BPD partner becomes hyper-vigilant to abandonment, certain that they are unworthy and incapable of being loved and that once their partner realizes this they will leave. Every word and every action of their partner is increasingly scrutinized through this lens of mistrust. Meanwhile, there is this growing feeling that they are losing themselves. That they are ceasing to exist in someone else, and there are desperate attempts to assert independence and self-sufficiency. Eventually, it often reaches a point where the pwBPD can no longer stand the overwhelming emotions their partner is triggering, and they leave. So, while pwBPD do tend to be impulsive, and the act of leaving itself may be impulsive, it is most likely that there has been a long build up behind the scenes with the pwBPD struggling with raging emotions they can neither control nor cope with. It is critical to realize, however, that while you are a trigger for your ex, you are NOT the cause. You didn't cause her to feel these things, and honestly she didn't either. This is her disorder at work. This is what the disorder does, because it is evil and awful. But, can you understand now, why she can't stand to have anything to do with you? It's not because she doesn't care. It's the exact opposite. It's because she cares more than she can handle.

My own ex had times when, after my pushing her to try and resolve her chronic silent treatments, she would try and have us take a "break." I think it was her way of trying to maintain the relationship while having the space to reduce the overwhelming feelings. She told me a number of times that the last thing she wanted was for us to break up. I believe her. I suspect that your ex feels the same. She just doesn't know what else to do. Unfortunately, this is not something that you can fix. Neither can I. We are triggers and we must understand that.

Quote from: TheRiddler on Today at 04:07:07 AM

I just can't stop thinking I should have been more proactive about moving the relationship forward... she talked about it, but I just didn't understand. sad

I read articles and message board posts and it just feels like, though no one can really say, I don't have much of a chance of anything in the future with her, that she just fell out of love with me and I'm forever a person she'd not want to be with. I'm really tired of thinking this stuff, but it's fully inhabiting my mind, and therapy and meds are of some help but the thoughts remain. They're such scary, hopeless thoughts.

I've thought about reaching out to see if she's completely written me off, but I don't know if she'd even know.

Everyone has regrets about relationships, even lasting relationships. We all make mistakes and wish that we had done things differently. This is to be human. Please, do understand, however, that there is nothing you could have done to prevent this break up. I am very sorry to have to say that, because I know firsthand how much that thought hurts. The tragedy is that you could never be perfect enough -- even if you were perfection itself. The fears inherent in BPD are triggered by intimacy. It is a terrible tragedy, but the better and more loving of a partner you are, the more the disorder tends to be triggered. Ultimately, your ex is never going to be able to have a stable relationships with anyone unless she is able to begin the very difficult task of healing her disorder -- and that means developing an autonomous self. I feel very sorry for both of you, because this is truly neither of your faults. This is the miserable disorder.

No one, except God, can say if you will be able to continue a relationship with this woman. She may not even be able to say herself, because her emotions are so shifting. There is an overwhelming chance that she does miss you terribly and this is breaking her heart to leave you, but she is doing everything possible to ignore and suppress that, because it is more pain than she can bare. She not only has emotions of extreme intensity, she also has extremely limited ability to cope with them. She has only a limited number of very primitive coping mechanisms and none of them are healthy. One of her tasks in therapy will be to learn to deal with stress and emotions in a more healthy manner. I know you want to be with her, and I know how much you want to know if you will be able to. I don't want to lie to you, however. There is certainly a chance that you will be able to get back together, but there is no guarantee. It is impossible to put some sort of percentage on that. Everyone and every relationship is unique and having a BPD partner doesn't change that. There is just no way to know. That is why I and other members have advised you as we have. Spend the time now to work on yourself, and if she comes back then you will be in a far better position to provide the kind of relationship with the most lasting chance of stability. We must remember, however, that ultimately only she can truly conquer this disorder and she has to do that alone.

Quote from: TheRiddler on Today at 07:05:40 AM

I've heard many times on this forum (and have been told, specifically) that having no contact with an ex pwBPD is the most probable way they'll re-engage, but point 8 of the "bpdfamily.com" article (https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality) says "absence generally makes the heart grow colder." These seem to be two conflicting ideas to me.

Yes, this is true. Absence does tend to make the heart grow colder. I think that is true for most everyone, but it seems to be more true for pwBPD. pwBPD have problems with object constancy. This is object relations theory, and I don't understand it on any sort of deep level, so I will have to forgo trying to explain it. However, pwBPD have trouble in realizing that there is constancy in things like love. They tend to believe that since their emotions are constantly in flux, that reality is constantly in flux. As you are noticing, BPD is full of contradictions. It is a disorder that seems to be a paradox inside of a paradox. Your ex is not well. She has a serious mental illness. This is not her fault in any way. But it does mean that she is not experiencing and reacting to the world in a rational, healthy way. It may be very hard to understand this, because it is deeply disordered thinking. There is a certain internal logic to the disorder, however, and learning about this could be helpful for you to gain a better insight and context into your ex's thinking and behavior. For me, it has been very helpful in depersonalizing the experience. We are not the bad guys and we are not the cause of the breakup or of our ex's suffering. Please keep that in mind.

I hope that helps. I feel for you. I remember very much what it felt like in the wake of my ex leaving me, and how shattered I felt. How desperate I was to win her back and how much I wanted to fix things. I had to realize all of the things that I am now telling you, however, and they have indeed been bitter pills to swallow. I am only trying to tell you the truth, so that you can begin to take the best steps for you, and to have what I believe are the best chances of a future relationship with your ex. I can tell you from personal experience, that the pain will dull with time. Hang in there.

[Suzn]

Hey e

You said a couple of things that caught my eye. One of which rings a bell for me.

You were the oldest of 8 children. Wow, a lot of responsibility there, no? Watching over 7 younger siblings.

You said until you all we adults there was little or no saying, so I'm assuming no hearing as well(?), I love you? Children need to hear this, it would go to being valued.

The bell ringer for me was "they did the best they could." I'm sure you're right, 8 children is a lot of work. But... .individually how well were your emotional needs met? I could see you being relied on as the oldest, did you put your needs aside a lot?

I could be way off base here e however I said the same thing about my mother doing the best she could for years. In fact, I had defended her for as long as I can remember until I started digging into my own issues. Why was I Codependent? Behaviors tell a story and even though the story can vary it can end up with similar results. (Such as grey kitty and I talking about our need to be right in his recent thread here in PI. Opposite childhood experience but similar outcome.)

The fact that there were 8 children in your family had to be hard sometimes when someone might need some more individual attention and not getting it for the simple fact your parents were very busy. Could it be triggering for someone to be giving you that individual attention? I hesitate to use the word crave, for some reason I wouldn't see you acknowledging a craving for that.

I have been told by my T that people who have been very kind are triggering for me since I never really got individual attention. I was just an extension of my mother, I don't know that we share that part but still different circumstances can still lead to similar outcomes. It took me a loong time to see that. I was most definitely a slow learner there too.

[eyvindr]

Hi suzn -- nice to hear from you.

Thanks for the feedback -- I really appreciate it. To answer your question, no -- I'd never thought of this. It's interesting, and I could see where it may apply to some extent. Not sure in what sense you're using "triggering." I've been kind of thinking that one of the big reasons that I may have been attracted to the partners I've had has been because they've offered me the attention that I didn't get from my parents as a kid. And I've pretty much accepted for awhile that my upbringing pretty much trained me to be a caretaker, bordering on codependent -- and my mom is clearly still pretty codependent, though she's gotten better over the years, I think mainly due to all of us kids "aging out." But she'll still get weird at times, and act all guilty -- my youngest sister described it as "she's always squirrelly," and that kind of hits it on the head, in terms of the way seemingly simple situations can at times cause her to behave in anxious ways. But, this isn't about my mom's behavior, after all.

I'm pretty sure I don't push back when people are trying to be kind to me -- is that what you mean? I did have to work at learning to become comfortable relying on other people -- I'm definitely self-reliant and strongly independent, and I mostly like it, but I've learned that there are times when I need to turn to other people for help. Where I get triggered is when people I care about start telling me what I should be doing, or have to do, for them -- when I already feel like I'm giving as much as I can or want to give (and I recognize there's a difference there, too). I understand that all of us have different emotional needs, and within a relationship, both parties need to compromise at times -- to meet in the middle in order to make things not only work, but thrive. But there are limits, and I don't tolerate clearly stated personal boundaries being trampled in the name of "caring."

Does that make sense? Are you seeing something that I'm missing? -- I often think that must be it, and why I keep feeling like I haven't been able to figure this out for myself. Did I interpret your response in the way you intended?

Thanks again, suzn -- always appreciate your insights.

[Suzn]

Thanks e, very kind of you.

Triggered as in being drawn to that person. It doesn't necessarily mean a romantic attraction but a draw in general though that did play a role in the draw to my exBPDgf.

I wouldn't say this is about your mom's behaviors however our "conditioning" generally starts at home. Our core beliefs and our behaviors originate in family. Identifying what was missing seemed to help me see what draws me in. I stick close to family behaviors when working to better understand more about my own if that makes sense.

[Suzn]

And I've pretty much accepted for awhile that my upbringing pretty much trained me to be a caretaker, bordering on codependent -- and my mom is clearly still pretty codependent, though she's gotten better over the years, I think mainly due to all of us kids "aging out." But she'll still get weird at times, and act all guilty -- my youngest sister described it as "she's always squirrelly," and that kind of hits it on the head, in terms of the way seemingly simple situations can at times cause her to behave in anxious ways.

I did have to work at learning to become comfortable relying on other people -- I'm definitely self-reliant and strongly independent, and I mostly like it, but I've learned that there are times when I need to turn to other people for help.

I get triggered is when people I care about start telling me what I should be doing, or have to do, for them -- when I already feel like I'm giving as much as I can or want to give (and I recognize there's a difference there, too).

I don't tolerate clearly stated personal boundaries being trampled in the name of "caring."

I highlighted a couple things you said, a lot of which I can relate to. The last sentence up there, where did that come from? It's similar to being triggered when someone pushes you to do more, where did that come from?

I know your original questions are about how you keep finding women with issues. However maybe it's a good idea to look deeper into your mother's behaviors, you might find some similarities with these women.

You say your mom is Codependent, so is my mother. But there are some deeper issues with my mother, which I found when I started looking deeper into the causes of my codependency. My mother lost her mother in her early 20s, I don't think she grieved this loss. I think she shut down. Emotionally unavailable from that point forward. In fact she admitted to me recently she didn't feel she truly loved us when we were young, at least not in the way she loves her grandson. I question if she knows what she feels now. You would never know this about her, not even years after knowing her. She appears to be a kind and giving person, she's a people pleaser after all.

Codependence is self centered and fearful. Which brings anxiety. Guilt is a big part too. I'm just noting some similarities in what you've said about your mother here. To what severity, I wouldn't know.

My mother gets triggered with us and she gets squirrelly too. I guess I should get to the point, we are drawn to what we know. I don't know that it matters what the label is it's simply emotionally deficient issues and how they play out. How they molded US as children and what we brought with us into adulthood.

The oldest of 8, were you parentified? Just curious, I was.

I found a couple of links to share with you. One seems to be for couples but the gist of it is good. How to form a solid foundation in a relationship, I took notes for myself. Anyway, the titles may seem presumptuous, not my intention however these types of articles helped me figure out why I kept looking in the wrong places. I had to sit remember things from my childhood, it's a puzzle to me, these dynamics. Everything I've quoted of yours, some similarities I've shared and information in these links are pieces of a puzzle only you can put together. That is if any match.

I don't mind sharing that at 50 yrs old and after several years of therapy I'm finally putting the last few pieces of mine together. And you thought YOU were a slow learner. Ha!

www.jameswatkins.com/articles-2/hopeful/courtship/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/tech-support/201405/why-your-partner-may-be-your-parent

[eyvindr]

ha! -- you're younger than me, Suzn!

I do see similarities -- thanks for the help. I'll read over these articles and respond. Thanks, Suzn.

The last sentence, about not tolerating my boundaries being trampled -- was just expressing that I've come a long way from overlooking that kind of stuff, mainly by chalking it up to someone having good intentions but not recognizing the line between trying to help and trying to dictate another person's behaviors. In my most recent r-ship, I felt routinely attacked by my ex, and when I'd stand up for myself, she'd get defensive and try to turn it around and say that I was the one being defensive -- when all I was doing was refusing to be held accountable for causing her negative feelings, which were based on inaccurate assumptions. She'd accuse me of being thoughtless and uncaring, which is the last thing I ever am with the people I love -- and claim that she was only telling me these things because she loved me and wanted us to be happy.

SO much of our time in that r-ship was spent locked in that dynamic, and so much of my emotional energy was exhausted trying to make sense of that dysfunctional BS! She never ever once fully took responsibility for doing that. It was like her final trump card -- the most accountability she'd take for anything negative was 50%. So, in order for me to ever get a so-called apology, I had to agree that I was 50% responsible for things I didn't have anything to do with.

Of course, I understand that better now. In her bippidee brain, she wasn't really ever responsible for anything, so 50% accountability for anything was a pretty serious commitment. Because her feelings dictated every thought she had, to her thinking, I was 100% responsible for everything she felt -- simply by existing. I didn't have to do anything. I just had to be here. Ack.

[livednlearned]

Hi eyvindr,

I'm late to the party. Really respect how much work you're doing to understand this.

I really connected with your original post when you detail all the relationships you've had, each one a problem in its own way. My history is similar. Not a whole lot of healthy guys and definitely the same pattern wearing different clothing throughout all my relationships. I appear to have changed this pattern with the man I'm currently dating. There's hope 

This was great:

Cliff's notes:  Poor choices likely tied to unconscious labeling of insecure women as archetypes, based on childhood models and impressions.

It's probably true, and like Suzn and Pingo said, worth digging into much deeper. Your mother lost her mother at a young age. Very likely, given the generation this occurred, that no one helped her process these feelings of grief. My father's mother experienced the same loss. Your mother likely set the emotional tone in the family. Being that many men are raised to repress feelings, this work would fall to her. If she did not have full access to her feelings, it would be difficult for you to have access to all of yours. When we repress powerful and difficult feelings like grief of a parent, we turn off not just the negative feelings we don't want to feel, but a whole bunch of other ones.

Your parents could be wonderful, decent people with the best intentions, who truly love their children. You may have felt loved even if it was not expressed. But on a day to day basis, if grief has been repressed, then there will be a tremendous numbing that runs deep. If your mother entered therapy to deal with these feelings of grief, it's likely that they would spring out of her with a force that surprised her, and you, as though she lost her mother yesterday. My grandmother was 6 when her mother died and that grief turned to anger and paranoia, a type of numbing (anger being a secondary emotion). I can see now that she was emotionally stuck somewhere around the age that her mother died. This affected my dad, who learned to repress feelings. Then he put a lot of effort into turning off emotions in our family. Not just his own, but all of us. My parents have been married 50 years, I was raised in a stable two-parent home, we had everything you could ask for, etc. But emotionally, it was pretty much a slow drip.

This is basic on the intergenerational family systems theory that Murray Bowen developed. Sometimes you have to go back a generation or two, or three, to figure out the patterns. You're carrying the pattern forward, in all likelihood, without recognizing where it started. It probably feels like your choices in partners don't make sense because your family was xyz, but the pattern you're looking for is actually abc. It's the emotional thread. It will be hard to see with your head if you haven't felt it with your heart, is the best way I can say it.

Unfortunately for people like us who are accomplished in our heads, this work cannot be intellectualized. You have to feel it, and that's hard. I think it might be even harder if your family is in any way normal or upstanding. It feels guilty to go back to deep childhood feelings and really cry that sh!t out. It can be small things, like your parents ignored you once baby #2 came along. And then #3, and then #4. You had to grow up young and stuff your feelings because you didn't have a mom or dad who could say, "eyvindr, you feel sad because now there are 4 kids instead of you, and that's hard. You had all our attention, and now we're outnumbered and it probably feels like you aren't as important anymore. But you are. You'll always be our first born and that's a special place."

And then hold you while you cried, comforting you because your mom (especially her) knew that crying it out meant you could process the sadness and survive it, and then move one. Since she could not do that, being sad or feeling grief would be terrifying for her. What if she never stopped?

When you work on this stuff, it hurts. And guilt will make an appearance. It's kinda like anxiety, in that it tries to make a deal to prevent you from feeling all the other feelings that want a shot at center stage. Anxiety and guilt are like thugs, always wheeling and dealing and trying to strike deals.

Once you unplug those old feelings, the rest tend to start flowing and suddenly you have the whole package. And those feelings take care of you. They protect you from making decisions with only your intellect. They steer you away from danger and let you be the whole and healthy person you are.

We make it so complicated. It really isn't. It just hurts to get there, and we don't like pain.

[jhkbuzz]

Hi eyvindr,

I'm late to the party. Really respect how much work you're doing to understand this.

I really connected with your original post when you detail all the relationships you've had, each one a problem in its own way. My history is similar. Not a whole lot of healthy guys and definitely the same pattern wearing different clothing throughout all my relationships. I appear to have changed this pattern with the man I'm currently dating. There's hope  

This was great:

Cliff's notes:  Poor choices likely tied to unconscious labeling of insecure women as archetypes, based on childhood models and impressions.

It's probably true, and like Suzn and Pingo said, worth digging into much deeper. Your mother lost her mother at a young age. Very likely, given the generation this occurred, that no one helped her process these feelings of grief. My father's mother experienced the same loss. Your mother likely set the emotional tone in the family. Being that many men are raised to repress feelings, this work would fall to her. If she did not have full access to her feelings, it would be difficult for you to have access to all of yours. When we repress powerful and difficult feelings like grief of a parent, we turn off not just the negative feelings we don't want to feel, but a whole bunch of other ones.

Your parents could be wonderful, decent people with the best intentions, who truly love their children. You may have felt loved even if it was not expressed. But on a day to day basis, if grief has been repressed, then there will be a tremendous numbing that runs deep. If your mother entered therapy to deal with these feelings of grief, it's likely that they would spring out of her with a force that surprised her, and you, as though she lost her mother yesterday. My grandmother was 6 when her mother died and that grief turned to anger and paranoia, a type of numbing (anger being a secondary emotion). I can see now that she was emotionally stuck somewhere around the age that her mother died. This affected my dad, who learned to repress feelings. Then he put a lot of effort into turning off emotions in our family. Not just his own, but all of us. My parents have been married 50 years, I was raised in a stable two-parent home, we had everything you could ask for, etc. But emotionally, it was pretty much a slow drip.

This is basic on the intergenerational family systems theory that Murray Bowen developed. Sometimes you have to go back a generation or two, or three, to figure out the patterns. You're carrying the pattern forward, in all likelihood, without recognizing where it started. It probably feels like your choices in partners don't make sense because your family was xyz, but the pattern you're looking for is actually abc. It's the emotional thread. It will be hard to see with your head if you haven't felt it with your heart, is the best way I can say it.

Unfortunately for people like us who are accomplished in our heads, this work cannot be intellectualized. You have to feel it, and that's hard. I think it might be even harder if your family is in any way normal or upstanding. It feels guilty to go back to deep childhood feelings and really cry that sh!t out. It can be small things, like your parents ignored you once baby #2 came along. And then #3, and then #4. You had to grow up young and stuff your feelings because you didn't have a mom or dad who could say, "eyvindr, you feel sad because now there are 4 kids instead of you, and that's hard. You had all our attention, and now we're outnumbered and it probably feels like you aren't as important anymore. But you are. You'll always be our first born and that's a special place."

And then hold you while you cried, comforting you because your mom (especially her) knew that crying it out meant you could process the sadness and survive it, and then move one. Since she could not do that, being sad or feeling grief would be terrifying for her. What if she never stopped?

When you work on this stuff, it hurts. And guilt will make an appearance. It's kinda like anxiety, in that it tries to make a deal to prevent you from feeling all the other feelings that want a shot at center stage. Anxiety and guilt are like thugs, always wheeling and dealing and trying to strike deals.

Once you unplug those old feelings, the rest tend to start flowing and suddenly you have the whole package. And those feelings take care of you. They protect you from making decisions with only your intellect. They steer you away from danger and let you be the whole and healthy person you are.

We make it so complicated. It really isn't. It just hurts to get there, and we don't like pain.

OMG that ^ might be one of the most amazing things I've ever read.

My grandmother (mom's side) lost her mom when she was six or seven... .just a few years after they emigrated from Italy to NY. Family of 7 children, father left alone to raise them, step mother eventually appeared but I think my grandmother's r/s with her stepmother was pretty strained.

My mom & grandmother always had a difficult r/s... .my grandmother always seemed immature to me, kind of histrionic. And controlling.  My mom spent a large part of her adult life trying to get out from under her... .they went decades without talking.

It amazes me that before your post that I have never really considered how my grandmother's experiences may have impacted my life.

[Suzn]

E your triggers existed long before your last relationship. They are evidence of your core beliefs. Tracing back where they developed and what our core beliefs are helps us become more self aware. When we understand ourselves better we are more capable of recognizing behavior patterns in others earlier on. So it becomes easier to see the flags... .and we all have some flags of our own. Seeing our own flags helps us recognize flags in others, I can't emphasize that enough.

[eyvindr]

Suzn and livednlearned --

Thank you both for weighing in, and for your kind encouragement -- and solid feedback. I really appreciate this.

The last two stints I had on these boards, I began the process of shifting my focus away from what happened to me in past r-ships, and towards why I kept finding myself in r-ships with partners who had similar issues -- the whole repeated patterns thing. Both times, the same thing happened -- first, I hit a wall, as far as being able to get to the root issues, and second, I reconciled with my ex. So, in short -- I didn't finish the course, as it were.

This time, I have nothing to lose, and a lot to gain, personally, from making some sense of all of this. So, again -- I really appreciate everyone's help, insights, feedback and occasional kick in the ass when I need it!

So -- Suzn: I read the articles. Thank you again for pointing me to them. From the first article -- I'm slightly familiar with the whole Harville Hendrix thing; my ex and I actually had two sessions with an IMAGO therapist, and I was excited to work with her, but as you might expect, we never got very far. But, I'm familiar with the concept of two people being attracted to each other because of complementary core psychic wounds. Makes a lot of sense to me.

I got a lot more out of the second article. I've been meaning to dig deeper into the attachment type literature for a few years now, but haven't made it happen. This reinforces the importance that I need to do that. After all, this is the key question I keep asking:

How do insecurely attached people attract mates? After all, we all want a securely attached partner—one who’s emotionally available, loving, supportive, dependable—not an insecure or clingy one, or someone who’s detached and uncommunicative. How do we get roped in?

Later in the article, this description of the difference between “fearful” and “dismissing" avoidant attachment styles:

Avoidant attachment yields two different separate behaviors—“fearful” and “dismissing.” Fearful avoidants have a negative self-image, but are also passive and dependent; they actually want intimacy but they are also desperately afraid of being hurt and distrust others. Fearful avoidants are the hardest category of insecure people to partner with because they send out mixed signals. The dismissing avoidant has a more positive self-image but would also agree with the following statement: I am comfortable without close emotional relationships. It is very important to me to feel independent and self-sufficient and I prefer not to depend on others and have others depend on me.

I've recognized for some time in myself a streak of the avoidant attachment style. I wouldn't say I'm "comfortable" without close emotional r-ships -- but I am able to be happy alone, even content, in times when I'm not involved in a serious r-ship. But I deeply value strong, close emotional r-ships -- it's my definition of friendship, really. And I love my friends! (Interestingly, my ex hated it whenever I said anything to the effect -- can still picture her rolling her eyes and hear her saying, in her best Eeyore impression, "Oh, you don't have to say it -- we all know how much you lo-o-o-o-o-ove your friends" -- like she was describing some out of control fixation on, say, beach volleyball!)

The last sentence is definitely something I've said about myself many times. And I'm sure it comes from my upbringing -- as both of you pick up on, I was given a lot of responsibility as a kid, simply because I was the oldest. It's still easy for me to recall the messaging that I heard repeatedly: "you need to set an example for your sisters and brother" and "keep an eye on everyone." I have only a vague memory of ever disappointing either of my parents in that role -- I was lucky, nothing horrible ever happened, and I was also pretty good at it -- so I don't recall ever being held responsible for anything happening. I do recall, however, my younger sibs -- particularly one sister and my brother when he was a kid (birth order here is Me, S, S, B, S, S, S, S) -- trying to "get me in trouble" for reasons I never understood. So, there was some blaming that went on, over ridiculous crazy kid crap, nothing serious, that I would be held accountable for -- and I remember resenting being punished for things I didn't do. I still have a strong need for fairness and equal treatment, and I can get pretty riled if I feel like I or someone I care about is being wrongly accused or cast in a negative light that isn't accurate. I'm a little OCD about that, probably, which can make me prickly at times.

livednlearned -- thanks for the very insightful feedback. A past counselor I worked with touched a little on the generation stuff when he and I first began working together -- it's where I became fascinated by the whole birth order thing. Actually checked out a few books on it at the time -- but the titles I chose were way too dry and dense to hold my interest. I think you've hit on something -- about my mother very likely not having ever been able to really grieve for the loss of her mother. She was just a child when she lost her -- and she was pretty much summarily deposited, along with her older brother, into the arms of her deceased mother's family, while her father did his thing -- which was typical in those days, it seems -- he was a man, he went to work, raising kids was a woman's role. His first two kids weren't returned to their father's care until he had remarried and his new wife began having kids. I guess at that point, people felt like it was the right time -- ? I don't know -- I didn't live back than. I've always been kind of horrified at how perfunctory these decisions used to be -- like everything was just one more chore. People didn't seem to spend much time on emotions back then. I suppose there was just too much to do to simply survive.

But I can see where, if I was raised by a mother who was in a more or less continual state of denial, always suppressing very strong and even primal emotions, the model that formed my impressions of women would be pretty unhealthy, if not warped. Or maybe just limited? It does feel sad to think about it, and I agree with you -- it's probably simpler than I think, and we do all try to avoid pain. Until we have no choice. And I feel like I want to be there. Thank you.

Give me more. I can't stay now -- I have to go to the gym. But thank you both again. Very much!

[Suzn]

I could see where there would be some resentment when you were punished for things you didn't do. Fair is fair, right?

It doesn't sound very fair that you were always expected to set the example and to watch everyone. When did you get to be a child?

Children need to feel carefree and feel cared FOR. Teaching responsibility is a good thing however it can be taken too far. How often did you put your needs aside as a child looking after 7 younger children? How often did you get to play with your friends away from your siblings? I'm going to assume a little here that it wasn't often since you say you felt naive later on. How social were you as a child/teen?

After reading back over your r/s history it doesn't look like you put your needs first till after your marriage, with the gf before you were divorced. How much of respecting your first gf wishes had to do with you wanting her to like you?

You didn't mention how long your relationships were except for one, was it the longest? Just curious, you had a lot of good things to say about her and the other one that you had fond memories of. With those two it seems the common denominator was FUN/PLAY.

You definitely have a caretakers history. I'd like to hear more about your childhood, what did it look like? What was school like? What were your daily responsibilities? Did your mother confide in you on grown up matters or just count on you as a childcare provider? There's some parentification in your past for certain, how much is unclear.

I get that with a large family that the oldest child would inevitably get a lot of responsibility as par for the course however you have, admittedly, behavior patterns and core beliefs that have ended you up in relationships that were unhealthy. Those patterns and beliefs came from somewhere and we're starting to see where.

[Suzn]

I meant to add, you also mentioned "fun" with your exBPDw.

[livednlearned]

A past counselor I worked with touched a little on the generation stuff when he and I first began working together -- it's where I became fascinated by the whole birth order thing. Actually checked out a few books on it at the time -- but the titles I chose were way too dry and dense to hold my interest. I think you've hit on something -- about my mother very likely not having ever been able to really grieve for the loss of her mother... .People didn't seem to spend much time on emotions back then. I suppose there was just too much to do to simply survive.

I don't know. There are plenty of healthy, connected but poor families with lots of chores, who have endured tremendous suffering.   I remember reading in a book by Gabor Mate (Canadian psychiatrist) about how wars create such unimaginable suffering that entire generations can be broken by emotional loss. He speculates that the generations following WWI and II would definitely be impacted, not just the generation that lived through the wars, but all of the ones following.

A book that helped me put the intergenerational pieces of the puzzle together was Dance of Connection by Harriet Lerner. But she usually writes for women, so I don't know if her style would appeal. She popularizes some of the dry family systems theory stuff. I don't know what psychologists think of her (she's a Phd, but her style is def pop psychology), but I finally *got* it while reading her stuff. She made me understand something important about Karpmann drama triangles and codependence that has stuck with me.

But I can see where, if I was raised by a mother who was in a more or less continual state of denial, always suppressing very strong and even primal emotions, the model that formed my impressions of women would be pretty unhealthy, if not warped.

I don't know if it's just that your impressions of women was formed by her, although that may certainly be part of it. It's more that you would not experience healthy emotional connections with one of the most significant people in your early life. You wouldn't even know it was missing because in so many other ways she was there for you, doing what regular mothers do. You wouldn't realize that something emotional wasn't happening. So then you go off into the world with your conditioning, looking for love without having the full basket of emotions you need to replicate healthy intimate love. We pass this stuff on. You inherited the family script that she inherited. Now it's time for you to figure out what this means for you. And by figure out, that means feel. A lot of the second-guessing and doubting about whether someone is healthy, or can be trusted -- that goes away when you clean house. Because suppressing some feelings seems to suppress a whole bunch of them, and you need those, just like you need your eyes and ears.

[eyvindr]

From anxiety5, over here: "Re: I figured it all out. There is no more confusion"

"You are on a journey. Each person here is. You are welcome and I'm glad I could help. But, let us not forget, I used to post in the staying forums, I used to think I could somehow not invest myself emotionally and thus keep myself from being hurt. I used to think I could fix everything. I used to think we could be friends, I used to think we could still talk and somehow I would have the strength to enforce boundaries.

Today I have accepted that I was used. I accept that the relationship was a lie. I accept that I tried to fix someone. I accept that I tried to change our relationship. I accept that I was determining my self worth through someone else reinforcing that I was worthy of love. I accept that I did not leave even after I realized it really bad and not fixable.

I accept my role but you know what? I have learned SO much. Take things slow. Build my self confidence. Never again isolate myself from friends and family. Always pay attention to someone's actions not words. Always trust your intuition. If someone cheats on me, the relationship ends immediately. No exceptions. Maybe some can forgive this, but through the identification of my core values, that unfortunately for me is a total 100% deal breaker. I learned you can not change someone else, and if you are the only one trying to make a relationship better, it's not a relationship. I learned to have self respect. I learned that love is not abusive, it is not unfaithful, it doesn't always have to win arguments, it isn't controlling. It doesn't seek isolation from your friends. It isn't cruel and it doesn't give you silent treatments.

There are things about this relationship that I learned about myself that would only have been possible through going through this hell. That is my gift. The gift of self awareness, personal empowerment, the gift of figuring out who Iam, what matters to me, and how I can find all of those things within myself and don't need someone else to validate my self worth. That in itself means I will never fall for love bombing again. Those deficits that the manipulator filled are gone. I'm not perfect, but I'm perfectly happy with who Iam. I don't need someone's approval to feel good about myself. More than anything I realized this. You are in control of your own life. You are in control of tomorrow. Nobody else. They do not have power over you.

As far as the hurt you feel, I get all of that. Don't beat yourself up for ruminating, that's how you figure out all the areas you need to work on and what you may have missed or ignored. These people are like drug addicts though. They are addicted to a supply to feed their ego. Suppose your sibling left his family, abandoned his kids and wife, left his job and ended up living under a bridge. Each and every one of these things would be a separate tragedy that would hurt you so badly. Why did they do these things? But suppose I tell you that your sibling is a heroin addict. Suddenly you get it. It's not that his wife or his kids or his job or life weren't good enough. He is an addict. That's what addicts do as their addiction consumes them. They lose everything. It is still sad, but suddenly you realize that everything that happened was predictable and most importantly it's the nature of an addict. This doesn't make the hurt go away but it does provide one invaluable asset to your recovery. THIS PERSON AND THEIR ACTIONS IS THEIR PATHOLOGY. It has NOTHING to do with you not being good enough, attractive enough, smart enough, wealthy enough, etc. The ultimate gift is the ability to realize that they have a condition that much like an addict consumes and runs their lives, hence the trail of destruction. Therefore you can leave these situations with your dignity intact, it wasn't you that failed, there is nothing from their rejection to take personally no matter how cruel, how mean, how irrational it's their pathology, not you or anything you did. Nobody can ever understand how an addict can be happy living under a bridge alone and destitute. Likewise, we can't figure out why these people do the things they do either by living their lives in a state of chaos and destruction.  In both cases, its their underlying condition that drives it. Therefore there is no sense on trying to figure it out.

These realizations helped me let go. You are not weak, you are strong. Think of how much you took, how much you dealt with and how through all of it you still had more to give. That is STRENGTH. That is a STRONG will. This is your foundation for a better tomorrow. You just need to spend that energy on someone capable of loving you back.

You did everything you could. You can't quit something when the other person isn't trying. But you can accept that you've tried as hard as you could, you've exhausted every outlet and nothing got better. You can realize you deserve and want more out of a relationship. And you can find all the gifts within yourself to build that foundation of a better future moving forward.

It's a process. The fact you are here means you are ready. And you WILL succeed. You don't need anyone to believe in you, as long as you believe in yourself."

[Perfidy]

Passionate post eyvindr, just wondering, do we limit our self by believing in our self? Why must we believe anything at all? The next level. Beyond all belief. Infinite. Eternal. Indestructible. Our self. The possessor of mind and body. The part of self that self is built and owned by is perfect. The part that can't be found among it's parts, but none the less, definitely exists and isn't dependent on belief. Only breath.

[Perfidy]

We call this our life.

[eyvindr]

Hi Perfidy -- I agree. Credit for that goes to anxiety5, who posted it on another thread. I just read it, and reposted it here, to add to my growing collection of epiphanies.

Separately, here's another kernel of wisdom gleaned from the boards:

My take on baggage is that most people have it by puberty, and may keep collecting more for a while after that... .perhaps quite a while after that. I'm looking at 50, I feel like I'm learning how to set down a lot of mine just now. However if I saw a profile that like "I have no baggage and you better not either" I'd interpret that as "I'm in denial about my baggage, and I'll blame you for anything that goes wrong in a r/s with you."

Whatever baggage you have, and however you dealt with it, by 50 you sure will have some history, at least!

This is pretty much my take on baggage, too... .and I would interpret such a statement similarly.

There's a Japanese art form called Kintsugi, fixing broken pottery with lacquer resin mixed with precious metals. It's based on a philosophy that "treats breakage and repair as part of the history of an object, rather than something to disguise."

People who deny their history by disguising their brokenness aren't likely to be fulfilling partners for people who acknowledge and embrace their brokenness, and want to repair and sublimate it to create the beautiful work of art of themselves.

[Mutt]

This is a worthwhile topic of discussion and is locked. A new and similar topic may be created.