Dealing with Passive Aggressive interaction this morning... I think need advice

[formflier]

I've gotten some good insight from others asking questions and giving their points of view... .and since I'm up by myself... .I might as well lay out what happened this morning.

For me... .zero trigger. 

Our "normal" morning routine is to wake up about 6... .make sure first kid is moving towards school and then we have snuggle, talk, pray time together in bed.  That has been getting less and less lately.  Holidays... .schedule upsets getting back to school.  some sickness... and IMO... .lots of choices by my wife that have dramatically shifted the schedule later.  She would probably say "it just happened"

Anyway... .I wake up alone this morning.  I knew she was going to stay up... .but didn't know she was going to sleep somewhere else.

So... .I turn on bed heater on her side and head off to see where she may be.  several kids are awake watching TV in one of the bedrooms and she is lounging in bed. 

"Hey... .I turned on the bed heater on your side if you want to come up and hang out for a while"

Up she came and we cuddle but hear our youngest crying for mommy downstairs. 

I suggest that we have the oldest one that is awake (12yrs) keep the baby up and play with the baby.  That will help reset her schedule so she is not up in middle of the night so much and we can be alone.

"She was not up in the middle of the night last night... .she's just tired" (direct quote from wife)

"That's good to know... .if she was not up in middle of the night then she should be OK to stay up with middle kid (substitute name)... .correct?"  (pretty direct quote from me)

"silence"

Baby comes in room and snuggles with Mommy.

No detection of trigger or anything... .voices are all calm at this point.  The silence is the only tell that something may be amiss.

"I thought we had agreed that we needed to reset the baby's schedule... ."

"silence"

(time between these are about 20-30 seconds... .)

"do you want to reset the baby's schedule" ?

(with some agitation)

":)o whatever you want... ." (wife)

"do you still agree that the baby's schedule needs to be reset" (me)

(with more agitation)  "Can't we just talk about this later?... .all you have done since I've been up here is to be after me... ."

"Honey... .I'd be happy to talk to you about this later... ."

The entire time we are snuggled against each other.  I stayed for 5 more minutes.

I leaned over so I see her face... (we had been spooning... .she facing away)... .eyes were wide open... .maybe some concern or agitation... .who knows.   I kissed her cheek and said... "I'm going to try to get some stuff done... .we can snuggle and talk later... "

I left the room... she and baby in bed. 

This is a typical interaction where I "need" or "want" to know what she wants... .

Note:  If I "do what I want... ." later she will tell me that I should have wanted something different... .or words to that effect.

What I'm driving to is getting a positive answer... .or clear negative

"Yes I want the baby's schedule reset.  I would like to rest but if you could play with baby... that would be great... ."  (I would fall over dead with a clear answer like this... .)

or

"No... .I don't want baby's schedule reset... ."  (that would trigger a follow up discussion... .which I would guess she would claim is unpleasant... )

My version is that she wants to decide... .and have me out of it.  I'm fine with some sort of mutual agreement... .or letter her decide some things... .let me decide some things.

I'll hush for now... .looking forward to some perspective on what I can do better.

[Notwendy]

Hi FF, I don't know if I can tell you what is going on, but I can share some perspective as a mom, and so maybe that helps. How old is your wife- and the baby? You have 8 kids, which I think is great. I love the idea of a large family. I also know that having kids took a lot of energy and physical stamina for me. I did experience some post partum depression. Also, hormone changes and kids waking up at night could mess with my sleep cycle. When I asked about your wife's age it is because poor sleep was part of perimenopause for me, which can start hormonal swings long before actual menopause. Sometimes, if I am wide awake at night, I will go into another bed in the house- not because it has anything to do with my H but sometimes I need to read, get a glass of milk, and I don't want to wake him up. He is a light sleeper. I know the idea of me sleeping in another bed isn't something he likes, but it really is more about being considerate and taking steps to get back to sleep. I can be tired in the am too, if I haven't slept well.

Your wife may want to adjust the baby's sleep cycle, and also enjoy cuddling the baby. As my kids got older, I recognized just how quick and fleeting these stages are. Holding a cute cuddly baby is heaven, really, and it doesn't last long. I remember how my older women friends just wanted to hold my babies when they were little, and now, that I am past the stage where I have my own babies, when I get the chance to hold a sweet cuddly baby, it is a moment in time that is cherishable. It is possible that your wife could have been caught up in the moment.

I only say this to give you a view into the feelings of a mom. I could be entirely different from your wife, but moms share a lot of these feelings. It seems there are mixed signals when the two of you want to be together alone and one of the kids needs you. I remember feeling conflicted when the kids needed me, and also so did my H. The tendency to side with the child is that the adult can understand postponing needs better ( or so we hope ) than a non-verbal child. However, what is going on is bothering you. Would it be possible to find a way to be alone with her without the kids around, just for a short while to talk about what is going on? Do you ever get time together when it is just the two of you? I realize that's pretty hard to do with a large family.

[formflier]

 Wife is 42... .still reading post.  I'm 45

[Notwendy]

42 is old enough to start feeling some of the changes, not always huge ones, but if she is stressed and getting up at night with a baby, her sleep cycle might be interrupted.

At 42 she may be thinking this is your last child, even if you are still thinking about having more. She is aware of the biological clock. In this case, she may be hanging on to those cuddles. I know I thought about that.

[formflier]

I only say this to give you a view into the feelings of a mom. I could be entirely different from your wife, but moms share a lot of these feelings. It seems there are mixed signals when the two of you want to be together alone and one of the kids needs you. I remember feeling conflicted when the kids needed me, and also so did my H. The tendency to side with the child is that the adult can understand postponing needs better ( or so we hope ) than a non-verbal child. However, what is going on is bothering you. Would it be possible to find a way to be alone with her without the kids around, just for a short while to talk about what is going on? Do you ever get time together when it is just the two of you? I realize that's pretty hard to do with a large family.

Very helpful to get a mom's perspective... .and woman's perspective.  I've very "logical"... .Naval officer... .naval aviator... .so I think about "training" my kids to behave a certain way... .I want them to be confident... .independent...  My wife is definitely the emotional touch in the family.  I have to be conscious about "connecting" with my kids... .it doesn't come naturally.

I'm going to bring this up later this morning... .the theme is that I don't get clear answers.  When I do get a clear answer... .most of the time there is not much follow through.

So... times when we discuss a parenting issue... .get clear answer... .and have that come true... .are rare.

In her world... .I'm supposed to pay attention to her... .understand her needs... .support her... .I'm supposed to know here and lover her enough that I "get it"... .and do things that she likes... .without a clear answer.

For a long time I made the mistake of arguing back... .or staying present when she would dysregulate and rain doom upon my head for not doing what I should have... .(in my book... ."guessing wrong... ."  

Things have improved... .but I suspect she is disappointed that I've "stopped guessing"  She most likely interprets this as me not trying... .

Without a clear answer... .I'm not.  

For a while I would try to get a clear answer if she was going to be ok with my guess... .basically give me immunity from a rage if I "got it wrong".  That didn't work out so well... .

[formflier]

42 is old enough to start feeling some of the changes, not always huge ones, but if she is stressed and getting up at night with a baby, her sleep cycle might be interrupted.

At 42 she may be thinking this is your last child, even if you are still thinking about having more. She is aware of the biological clock. In this case, she may be hanging on to those cuddles. I know I thought about that.

Most likely this is the last one.  Will be two in a couple months.  If she would "share" the desire to have last couple cuddles... .where I got to "have it my way with the kid sometimes... ."  I would be more understanding... .but my influence or ability to make decisions is on the way down.

Honestly... .there is resentment building over this.  It's not her baby... .it's ours... .

I'm not asking for half of the decisions... .I would like some influence... .and some mutual discussion and agreement about parenting... .again... .not even half the time.

Sigh... .

Please keep the comments coming... .very helpful

[Notwendy]

Thanks, it is good to know that I can help.

Your wish for your wife to talk about her feelings is the same as my wish for my H. I wish he'd tell me what he wants intead of not telling me and then raging at me for getting it wrong. Perhaps this inability to talk about feelings is part of the problem. My H likes to be the logical one, which makes it even harder to bring up feelings.

I can tell you that when I was in my 40's, in a way, I grieved in a way each milestone of my youngest child because it was the last... .first day of preschool,  first day of kindergarten, starting high school. There are moms who have told me that they want to spend as much time as possible with their pre-schooler since this is the last time for them that they can do this before they start school. This doesn't mean I was morose and depressed- these were happy moments, but also that I was aware that these were marking time while also knowing the next stage could bring wonderful things too and being proud of their growing independence. There is a book that I have read parts of: Necessary Losses by Judith Viorst that explains this well. We lose the baby stage and eventually gain a relationship with a wonderful adult child. One is necessary to get to the other.

Whatever is going on with you and your wife, I hope that you are able to get to her feelings. I respect logic, but using logic to understand feelings can throw fuel on the fire. I would say that we have the same formation in our family- he sees himself as logical and I am emotional, but he has almost a contempt for being emotional which is triggering to me considering it can feel like a put down. Some feelings are illogical by nature, but they are there regardless.

Is your wife scared to talk about her feelings because she knows you like logic over feeling? I know that I was afraid to do this, but in my case, it triggered my H into a rage, and this isn't happening with you. You did mention your wife was the quiet one in her family. It could mean that she wasn't encouraged to discuss how she feels there.

I don't know what is going on with your wife, but I hope that the two of you can find a safe way to talk about it- when you two are not in the moment of you wanting  her attention and baby wanting it too.

[formflier]

  It could mean that she wasn't encouraged to discuss how she feels there.

I think that very well could be the case. 

My desire is to "share" the kids.  If she really wants those moments... I will happily move aside my desires... (for a time) to let her feelings and desires be satisfied as best is possible.

Resentment builds when I am clear about what will satisfy my feelings and desires... .she makes decisions that prevent that... .and then claims it "just happened... " and " I should have said something... ." "I should have been more clear... "

For instance... I willingly stepped aside and let our youngest two spend some time with her parents between thanksgiving and Christmas.  "my part" of the negotiation was that over Christmas I wanted lots of "just us" family time.  I was very specific that it was family dinners that did it for me.  I defined that as 10 of us at the table... .at the same time... .sharing a meal... .no electronics... .no games going on.  Just dinner table conversation about us as a family. 

We have one child at college... .so Christmas is the only time that can happen.

We didn't have one family dinner... .not one.  I kept bringing it up... .she kept having "reasons"...

Not one... .

[formflier]

 

And this is after she got "her part"... ."my part" didn't come true...

[Notwendy]

That's interesting. My H has expressed feeling left out of the time the kids and I have together. However, he also has left the child care to me, and it is inevitable that this happens.

However, when we are all together- which is hard when kids are older and have more commitments, we do have family time. H doesn't like this to be intruded on. I get it. I have more time with them, so I don't mind sharing it sometimes. He gets less time and doesn't want to share. I also like it when there is Dad alone time with them. I think it is important for dads and kids to have their own relationship.

Where this gets imbalanced is the "work" of family time. When it is one parent having time with kids, that parent is really on the front line of carrying it out. When it is "family" time, it is often me arranging family time and attending to the kids' basic needs.  I get that in the grand scheme of things, my H has made a significant contribution: there would be no table, roof over it, or food on it without dad's efforts, but the meal and organization of it is up to me. In the moment, when I am cooking and attending to both the kids needs and H's needs, it can kind of blend into the same thing even if it isn't.

Another analogy is that H can be at work all day with people needing him- secretaries, colleagues, all are needing him for something. Then he comes home and if I ask him for something, it can feel like more of the same. He knows intellectually that it isn't but he's at the point of being tired of being asked to do things. However, he won't necessarily say this too me, but instead resist my requests or get angry.

Perhaps it is the feeling of meeting both your kids needs and your needs at the same time that your wife is having trouble with? This thread is also helping me see how my H might feel about some things and how I can understand his feelings when I am focused on the kids and he also wants me to consider him. Some things are common to many moms and dads no matter how they deal with feelings.

You mentioned your older one is in college. The "empty nest" feelings are challenges too.

[Jack_50]

Hi FF,

It seems that you're in the classical resentment situation : husband resents wife for living only in an emotional world; wife resents husband for NOT living there.

You need your wife to be more factual, and she needs more emotional support from you.  Both of you are unwilling to give in to each other, as you've build up frustration through the years.

And that's where the resentment starts.

And then you'll stop giving in to the other's needs.  And disregarding the other's feelings.

Creating even more frustration, as you've pointed out.

She's not giving you what you want, because you don't give her what she wants.  And you end up in this endless arm wrestle, where both try to wear the other one down.

Not sure about the best way forward, but I would start telling her (calmly) that you're disappointed that you didn't get your end of the deal, while she got hers.  And then let it go.

Next time it happens, repeat, still calmly.  

After several occurrences, it will become apparent that you're constantly being shortchanged.  She will also realize it, as long as you keep bringing it up consistently.

For yourself, prepare some backup.  This stalemate might go on for quite some time, so be prepared.  :)o not let yourself get discouraged, since you know what is going on now.

Consider every time you're being shortchanged as an opportunity for you to express (calmly) your disapproval, and consider this as one step closer towards the solution.

At the same time, you might want to try to learn more about feelings in general, and women's feelings in particular.  Shaunti Feldhahn has some good books and online content about it.

Jack

[Jack_50]

NotWendy,

Your husband is exhausted from the stress of work, and the last thing he needs when he comes home is another list of things to do.  He needs recovery time.

I read somewhere that this comes from a male biological necessity : testosterone is produced during the night, and highest in the morning.  Stress destroys testosterone, so the levels will decline during the working day.  A man on low testosterone is tired and moody, and has a "leave me alone" attitude.  It is actually a biological mechanism for him to be able to relax and to rebuild his testosterone levels.

This is where the classical "when he comes home from work, the only thing he does is lay in front of the TV" comes from.

Interesting stuff... .

[Notwendy]

Thanks Jack, that helps.

An issue might be that when his testostrone level build back up, I've been tending to the kids all evening and don't have one drop of estrogen left  

Breast feeding is known to drop estrogen levels too.

But knowlege is power, and knowing these things can help make room for understanding and meeting the other person's needs.

[formflier]

 

One thing to bring up... .and clarify... .

Any "emotional need" that my wife has brought up in counseling that has been identified with an action... .has been met.

100%... slam dunk.  

She is probably at 10-20% on "accomplishing" what we have agreed to.

For obvious reasons... .not a subject she wants to discuss... .

I realize there are BPD traits in all of this... .and that provides lots of the "reasons"

But... .there comes down to facts... .not one family dinner.

Right now... the next time a "deal" is proposed by her... .it is my intention to "get mine" first.


I have clearly indicated to her over many years my disappointment and feelings about being left out... .this has been shared in and out of counseling... .EXACTLY in the manner my wife has asked it to be shared.

My belief is that it is more an issue that my feelings/desires don't match hers... and that horks her off... .because I don't "agree" with her... .

Last counseling she spent a long time explaining to me and the counselor that me asking the question if my daughter said something meant that "I thought she was lying again and couldn't be trusted... "

My wife said that my daughter was making choices about her college based on her boyfriends families desires.  That they have control over her and we don't... .

Sigh... .

[formflier]

Notwendy,

If you and your husband came to a mutual agreement about a household/parenting issue... .and then you did something else... .especially if that something else was almost opposite of the agreement... .

How do you think that would play out?

Note:  agreement is something that both say you can live with... .but neither wants.  Compromise.

[Notwendy]

I also want to mention that the bond between mother and child is not logical in the feeling sense. It is logical biologically, but oxytocin and other hormones fuel a unique emotional bond. It is known that a baby's cry in a room full of lactating women will make all of them have a milk let down. Even long past this stage, a baby crying will produce a strong protective emotion for me, and I don not have this same emotional response to me H ( that would be wierd). That kind of bond is different. Fathers also have their own strong emotional bond to their children and partners. But having different biological roles and different hormones certainly can explain different feelings. I am not sure I could pay full attention to my H with the baby crying in the next room, even if I knew cognitively that the child was OK. It would be a distraction at the least.

[Notwendy]

FF, It was hard to agree on anything when it came to parenting. He expected me to do it. He sometimes didn't like something I did. I tried to accomodate him. Honestly, trying to co-parent was a rocky road.

I couldn't really ask him to do anything that he thought I should do. I did mention a time when he agreed to watch the kids and then backed out at the last minute. I was very upset about this. I soon learned not to ask him at all. I walked on eggshells most of the time around him.

He is happy to take on the traditional male role of supporting them and being a dad in the dad sense, but he left the day to day parenting to me and didn't seem to have time for it. Something about a baby's sleep cycle would not even be a discussion. I was the one getting up with the baby, so it didn't effect him at all.

However, we did have intimacy issues when I didn't have the energy to pay attention to him, and reading this thread makes me realize where I may have contributed to them. I think we were somewhat similar to your family in that we had very traditional roles in the home, but I know I resented him not helping a little more, and he probably resented being the one to work and come home to a tired wife.

He's really a good father and husband in the traditional sense, but sometimes it feels as if we are parallel to each other more than connected. Maybe this is the best we can do at the moment.

[formflier]

 

I can see this... .there is frustration when dealing with a partner that has BPD traits... .agreement and unreliability is a big part of that.

[Notwendy]

Agreements are difficult. However, I know my H has followed through on agreements that he wanted to do and that matter to him. I do the same. In the end, I can't force anyone to do what they aren't going to do, unless in a position of power like a boss, or parent-as far as chores or homework, but children also have their own ideas and need incremental freedom to make decisions too.

Did your kids ever complain about those group projects in school? Basically, the kid who wants the high grade ends up doing most of the work and the other kids get credit too. The alternative is for the kid to do less work and get a lower grade, but that isn't acceptable to him (or her), so he does the work. In a similar way, if the baby needed to be changed, then it was easier to just change the baby. My H cares about the lawn. I don't. He takes care of it. Two parents won't likely parent the same way. The one most concerned with how something is done might take that part on, if it is OK with the other, or decide to let it go and let the other one do it their way.

My H and I are pretty much aligned on core values and I think you and your wife are too. I would say I think we both wish the other were more attentive to our emotional needs, but I don't know if some expectations are realistic. I talk more than my H, and so sometimes he doesn't want to talk, but I can "talk" here, call a friend and as long as I respect the boundaries of privacy, and the boundaries of a marriage ( I wouldn't just call up a man to chat) , I can get some of my talking and sharing needs met that way. My H also likes to spend time in hobbies that I don't enjoy and having his hobby time meets some of his needs too.

[formflier]

 

One thing as I compare stories... .would your husband complain about stuff... and seemingly make sure it didn't get fixed... .so he could still complain.

My wife will complain about needing more "family time"... .yet she is the one that makes choices that cause it not happen...

hmmmm.

[Notwendy]

It's hard to tell. There is sometimes a conflict between what he says and what he means. There is also a push pull. He needs a lot of space, and I have come to realize that I do too, even if I would long for closeness.

He will say he is over worked, and then take on an additional project at work. I do think he is sometimes conflicted. However most of the time he is quite effective at what he wants to get done.

I used to wish that we had a closer emotional connection, more togetherness, but now I have come to accept that this may not be something that works for us. His family, to me, as an outsider, seems very enmeshed. Mine is too. I think we both fear that.

I've also come to accept that a lot of togetherness and being on the same page about things may not be necessary for a good marriage. Some of this is due to T and being encouraged to not be co-dependent. Now, the basic values and boubdaries are there- I am not looking outside the marriage for anything I shouldn't be looking for, but it is OK for me to get some needs, like socializing with female friends, and his hobbies on our own. We get along better when we give each other space, although this is something that is easier done now that our kids are older.

[Cole]

Is this really about the kids, or her inability to tell you what she wants?

My wife does the same thing with not giving clear answers. She will avoid making decisions, eventually leaving me to make the decision for her. That way she has no culpability if it is the wrong choice.

[formflier]

Is this really about the kids, or her inability to tell you what she wants?

My wife does the same thing with not giving clear answers. She will avoid making decisions, eventually leaving me to make the decision for her. That way she has no culpability if it is the wrong choice.

I suspect you are on the right track cole...

[Notwendy]

Yes, if I make the decision, or take charge of something, then I take the blame if it doesn't go right. By avoiding decisions and doing things, he doesn't risk making a mistake at them. However, what he does take on, he is very competent at and does them well.

[Notwendy]

We talk about the topic of being human and making mistakes in ACOA group. Many members feel if they make a mistake that they are the mistake, and we need to forgive ourselves when we do the best we can even if we make mistakes.

My H had a very critical dad who humilated him if he made a mistake. My mom also speaks of he mother as being very competent at everything. My mom is very insecure about doing things and will ask me over and over about something like trying a new recipe or picking a book for her book club.

My dad did so much for my mom, that to us she seemed helpless. When he died, we thought she'd fall apart. She still has her issues, but she is doing amazingly well on her own ( she does have some household help, but that's pretty normal for an elderly person). We ( siblings) were just talking about how much she can do for herself, even if it isn't always without mistakes. Maybe this is a lesson to accept our partners efforts and mistakes- as they may be learning what their parents didn't give them the space to learn in.

[Cole]

Is this really about the kids, or her inability to tell you what she wants?

My wife does the same thing with not giving clear answers. She will avoid making decisions, eventually leaving me to make the decision for her. That way she has no culpability if it is the wrong choice.

I suspect you are on the right track cole...

I suspect we are alike, in that we both come from backgrounds where the ability to take decisive action meant the difference between life and death.

My wife, on the other hand, comes from a home where my mother-in-law just could not wait for her to screw up so she could rub it in her face. And she knows her emotions get in the way of logic, so she has little faith in her own abilities at times. The end result is that she will not make a decision then accuses me of being a control freak if I do not pick what she really wanted (but would not tell me).

I have slowly been helping her along by refusing to make certain decisions. If she feels she made the right choice, I tell her how good she did, careful to avoid being patronizing. If she makes a decision that turns out to be a mess, I tell her I probably would have done the same thing, let's just find a way to fix it. Should we end up divorced (a 50/50 possibility) I want her to have the skills she needs to handle things on her own.  

[maxsterling]

In my opinion, asking a pwBPD to give clear and logical answers is completely futile.  You are asking the impossible.  It's about the same as asking your dog to talk.  My wife cannot make decisions for herself about what she wants, anytime, EVER.  And when she does, it's not more than an hour before she is second-guessing her decision.   It's part of the illness, and I have come to accept (however annoying it is) that this is the way she is now, and likely will always be.  There is nothing I can do about it.

Trying to put myself in your wife's shoes:  She feels something regarding this issue, but doesn't know exactly what it is.  She is incapable of making the decision about it now.  She may be tired.  You bringing it up, and continuing the conversation is irritating her.  You are asking her to answer something she doesn't know.  And worse yet, she doesn't know how to properly enforce her boundary that she is not in a position/mood to discuss right now.  pwBPD are BAD with boundaries.  So, she responds with passive aggressive behavior.

Maybe I am way off base here.  But when my wife gives negative reactions, silence, or passive aggressive reactions to things, I know that is my cue to DROP THE SUBJECT.  The solution to these "standoffs" depends on how important the subject in question is, the urgency, and the mood my wife is in:

- I can make the decision for myself, and then inform her of my choice.  Put it upon her to negotiate if she wants something different.  Often, she wants me to make the decisions, so if I feel this is what she really wants, this option goes well.

- I give her choice A and B.  Simplifying helps her decide.  ":)o you want to eat at abc restaurant or xyz?"  works better than "where do you want to eat?".

- BIG decisions regarding finances or legal stuff - best to make sure you do your homework first, then go slow.  Once you get the basic facts out there, expect her to tire, and you may have to revisit the issue.  Eventually, I have discovered that even on the big issues, it eventually boils down to discussion and then simplification to A vs B.  

[Cole]

It seems that you're in the classical resentment situation : husband resents wife for living only in an emotional world; wife resents husband for NOT living there.

OK, this one made me laugh because it is so true! Friends describe our marriage as "Spock meets Lucille Ball".

[Notwendy]

Max, you are right on with this. If I try to push through the standoff it is trouble. I need to learn to back off.

Spock and Lucille Ball, I just love it, but that means I'm Lucille to my H.   

[formflier]

 

Victory!  Or at least a step in the right direction.

We had alone time this afternoon. 

The unanswered question came up... .I chased the answer.  She did the dance... .non answers... .accusations.

I told her I was invalidated by her telling me my emotions.  I expressed non  understanding... .and left the room.

It wasn't abusive... .she got agitated... .but it was not abusive.

Anyway... I came downstairs 10 minutes later and asked her to ride me over to pick up a car that got worked on.

She gave me a big hug and apologized to me.  She clearly said "I want to reset FF kids schedule... "

We hugged 10 seconds or so... .I said I love you...

We hugged for 30 seconds or so more... .broke the hug...

she swatted me on the rear and said I've got to run get the kids from school and then we will go get the vehicle.

[vortex of confusion]

Is this really about the kids, or her inability to tell you what she wants?

My wife does the same thing with not giving clear answers. She will avoid making decisions, eventually leaving me to make the decision for her. That way she has no culpability if it is the wrong choice.

So much good stuff in this thread. I have the same struggles with my husband. Last night, he approached me about something and asked my opinion. I told him something along the lines of, "I can't make that decision for you." He then went on to say that he wanted my opinion. I told him that I didn't even want to do that. I gave him some questions to think about when making his decision but it was HIS decision, not mine. That felt really good to do.

Also, I wanted to make a comment about the family dinner stuff. I have some of the same struggles. Over the holidays, I told my husband that I would like to have at least ONE major outing as a whole family. It didn't happen because "stuff" kept coming up whether it was the weather, altered sleep schedules, or something else. One of the things that I have been wanting is to do more stuff as a family outside of the house. I have talked about this until I am blue in the face. It isn't anything new. So, who's "fault" is it? Is it my fault for asking for the same thing yet expecting a different result? Or, is it his fault for agreeing to do something but not following through? Since I can't change HIS behavior, then it makes sense for me to find different ways to get my need for going out as a family met.

I completely understand the desire to have a family dinner. I try to have sit down family dinners once a week at least. I know that having a sit down dinner for all 6 of us requires a lot of work and effort on my part. I have to plan the meal, make sure the table is cleared of everything, and make sure that there are enough clean dishes to have a place setting for everyone. On top of that, I have to make sure that there are clean serving bowls and serving spoons available. And, I have to make sure that ALL of the kids know that I expect them to stop what they are doing and come to the table. It takes a lot of effort. I am bringing all of this up because it might help FF get some ideas. A lot of the time, I pull off a family dinner by having ready and on/at the table when my husband walks in the door from work in the evening. However, when he is here, it would be nice if he would offer to clean off the table or set the table.

Also, something that I have done is get take out and have everyone sit at the table and eat together. I am thinking out loud here. I wonder if you could get take out, call your wife and say, hey, set the table, I am bringing home dinner. Find ways to sweeten the pot a bit.  

Something I was wondering about in relation to the morning time conversation is "what are the wife's usual patterns?" I ask this because I know that there are certain times of day, such as morning time, when I don't bring up anything at all because that is when something completely mundane can set him off into grumpy/silent/whatever mode. Looking at patterns of behavior to get a better idea of when to bring up certain things plays really well to my logical side.

[maxsterling]

Interesting development!  I think this goes along with a phenomenon I have noticed:  Plant the seed about something - she dysregulates - she comes back later and eventually is able to discuss the issue and makes a decision.  Do you think that is what happened here?

[Cole]

Interesting development!  I think this goes along with a phenomenon I have noticed:  Plant the seed about something - she dysregulates - she comes back later and eventually is able to discuss the issue and makes a decision.  Do you think that is what happened here?

Yes, good observation. BPDw tends to have an immediate, over-emotional response, calms down, feels guilty about the way she acted, then can respond in a less emotional fashion. I expect that is something many of us see in common.

[Cole]

Do want to mention this plays into the post formflier asked me to put up last week about decision making. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240055.msg12553360#msg12553360

This is something I have used to help her learn to make her own decisions instead of relying on me to do so for her. So far it is helping, though I would not use it for r/s issues. Leave those for a T or MC.

[Notwendy]

Great posts all of them. Glad you had a moment of happiness FF.

[formflier]

Interesting development!  I think this goes along with a phenomenon I have noticed:  Plant the seed about something - she dysregulates - she comes back later and eventually is able to discuss the issue and makes a decision.  Do you think that is what happened here?

Quite possibly... .I'm obviously pleased... .but there is also the curious side of me that wants to "understand"... .so we can do this again in the future...

[formflier]

 

VOC,

family dinner stuff:

Reasons it didn't happen were not because of effort... .wife sent 1 or 2 over here this evening... .I found out after the fact.

I expressed concern about no family dinner... .what is the worry... plenty of time.

Next night... .others are invited over... .again... .I get no cut on this... .express concern... .promises it will happen... .don't worry.

Then... .she skipped it one or two nights because she was pissed over something and went so sulk... .or... possibly did me a favor by skipping a dysreg... .again... .will not know.

Then there was some sickness... so they weren't there.

Then she realizes there are only a couple days left... lots to do... people get invited over... .her family...

and then oldest goes back to school.

She then announced it was no big deal that "my part of deal" didn't get done... I shouldn't worry about it.

At one point I asked if the tables were turned if she would feel same way... .if there had been tons of family dinners but kids were allowed to go to her parents.

She turned and walked away... .

So... .trying to draw a picture for you guys.  But also... .to say... .it's not the "mechanics" of dinner that were the problem.  She kicks a$$ as a cook... .I help... kids help... .big productions get put on almost nightly.

Hey... .if we are not all there... .there can still be 8 or so at table...

My gut... my guess is that there is some PA type thing going on where she is going to make sure that what I clearly wanted... .doesn't happen... .so I pitch a fit an argue.

Except... .I'm calmly prodding and this and shining light on an uncomfortable thing.

I would have had more success (I think)... .if I had asked about family dinners an hour or two ahead of time... .or tried to make it seem like her idea.

But... .I've chosen and decided that I don't want to live like that... .eventually I would like to get to the place where we can be clear about what we want... .and work towards that.

Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

I have to say I am pretty impressed at someone who cooks a dinner for 10 and does it well.

How invested is your wife in the family dinner? What is the input of her family? She may feel she has to please them too. If it is a dysfunctional family they may not respect the boundary of family dinner means us, not you.

Back to the school project- the one who wants the higher grade usually takes charge. If you are more invested in the event than your wife, you may have to make extra effort to make it happen. Plan earlier, say no to outside invitations. Help he set that boundary if she has trouble. It could be more about that than anything about you. Maybe your wife needs you to take on some aspect of it to make it happen even if she is a great cook.

[Notwendy]

Something else about standards. My H has high expectations of himself. He usually succeeds, but if he misses the high standard, he gets very down on himself. His dad was very critical of him. Probably for the same reason. He wasn't perfect but expected himself to be, and also his son. He was very proud of my H but almost never affirmed him.

H also has those same high standards of others, and they are always letting him down. At some point, I felt that I was held to impossible standards too. If I was not the always happy, always available, always loving wife, then he was disappointed. It is pretty hard to know that the bar is so high, you can't meet it. My husband accuses me of doing that to him. That's projection. Nobody is perfect. Part of recovery for me is knowing I don't have to be and that is OK. I do the best I can.

Is is possible that your wife feels that if she doesn't meet your expectations that she is somehow failing you? Maybe some parts of this are hard for her, like saying "no' to her family.

[formflier]

 

Family time for her family and mine (me) are very different.

For them... .they get together to watch tv.

Bonding means sitting around arguing about which show to watch next... .and while watching TV... you have phones and laptops out... and 2 or three conversations going on at once.

Plus people griping about they can't hear the TV... turn it up... .which means conversation people get louder... .

Grab food and eat in living room

There is not a dining room table at her parents house... .but there is a stupid big TV.

Hint... I don't watch much TV.   I participate with them in their stuff... I expect reciprocation.

Me "helping" her say no... .is a pipe dream right now... .I would love that. 

When we do have family dinners... .and put away phones and sit around and "just" talk to each other... .she has a good time... at least says she does.

Sometimes we break out uno cards or do games at the table... (that's "her stuff)... .I like it ok... .but find it distracting.

I'm a conversation guy... .I like to talk... .but... .I give people my attention... .I expect reciprocation.

I'm fine with some conversations with my wife... when she has facebook open or whatever.  (I don't have facebook)

But... again... there needs to be balance.

Sometimes I want to take my wife on a date... .not her phone with facebook on it.

[vortex of confusion]

My gut... my guess is that there is some PA type thing going on where she is going to make sure that what I clearly wanted... .doesn't happen... .so I pitch a fit an argue.

Except... .I'm calmly prodding and this and shining light on an uncomfortable thing.

Question: What do you think is her reason for making sure that you don't get what you clearly wanted? Do you think that she is deliberately trying to sabatoge things?

I ask myself that all of the time because, for me, it feels too personal when I focus on it being some kind of PA type thing meant to get me going. In my husband's case, I think he is just that self centered. He isn't trying to get me to argue. He isn't trying to make sure that what I clearly want isn't happening. He is simply not thinking that far in advance. From where I sit and from the conversations that we have had, it seems to me that he has a difficult time thinking more than a few minutes ahead of time unless it is something that pertains directly to him.

I would have had more success (I think)... .if I had asked about family dinners an hour or two ahead of time... .or tried to make it seem like her idea.

If it is something that is really important to me, I do have to give him reminders just like I would the kids. Stuff like, "Hey, I thought we were going to do X. I know how excited you are about it." An example is when I found a train show to go to as a family outing. I know he loves trains so I planted the seed and reminded him how much he loves trains and how much fun we have had at train shows in the past. And then he latched onto it and it became all about him. I got what I wanted and so did he. It became win-win.

But... .I've chosen and decided that I don't want to live like that... .eventually I would like to get to the place where we can be clear about what we want... .and work towards that.

Hmmm... .that is a bit more difficult. I feel like I am pretty clear on some of the things that I want and it sounds like you are pretty clear about some of the things you want, especially stuff that is pretty logical and easy to set down in concrete terms. The problems that I have are 1. Getting my husband to not only hear what I want but act on it. and 2. Getting my husband to clearly communicate what he wants and be consistent.

I am interested in hearing more on this.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

past patterns:  Before I new about BPD.  We would agree... .plan would change... I would pitch fit.  She would be "shocked" that I "attacked" her.

I would wonder... .why ask me in first place... .why agree... .why make plans... .if you were going to change at last minute and not consider me.

If it happens once or twice... .that's life.

If our "rate" of agreements actually happening is about 10-20%... .and my "rate" of providing what I agree to my wife is around 80-90.  That is unbalanced.

Now... .even funnier... .imagine pre-BPD me showing that calculation in MC with a pastor.  Somehow I was the a$$hole because I did an accurate calculation that invalidated that my wife "always" kept her word.  I chuckle when I think back on this.

Maybe I should rephrase my long term goal... .I want to change the pattern.  I don't want perfection.

Most of the time... .things need to come true... .that is the future I am going towards...

[vortex of confusion]

past patterns:  Before I new about BPD.  We would agree... .plan would change... I would pitch fit.  She would be "shocked" that I "attacked" her.

I would wonder... .why ask me in first place... .why agree... .why make plans... .if you were going to change at last minute and not consider me.

Hmmm. . .okay, I think I understand a little better. You have changed the dance by not reacting but she hasn't changed her side of things yet.

If our "rate" of agreements actually happening is about 10-20%... .and my "rate" of providing what I agree to my wife is around 80-90.  That is unbalanced.

Now... .even funnier... .imagine pre-BPD me showing that calculation in MC with a pastor.  Somehow I was the a$$hole because I did an accurate calculation that invalidated that my wife "always" kept her word.  I chuckle when I think back on this.

Maybe I should rephrase my long term goal... .I want to change the pattern.  I don't want perfection.

Most of the time... .things need to come true... .that is the future I am going towards...

I think I understand what you are getting at. It is something that I have been trying to figure out but I keep coming back to the question of: How can I set goals that involve another person if the other person is reluctant or, in my case, seems completely clueless. In my case, I don't want perfection but I would like a little better than what it is now. How can I get there with or without the participation of the other party?

Maybe focus on being more patient? I don't know. That is a thought that I have been having a lot lately. Yes, my husband is showing slight improvement in some areas but there are still lots of little things to be worked on. Am I being patient enough? There are days when I feel like, "I want things fixed and I want them fixed NOW. I have been patient for 16 years. How much more patient do I have to be?" I have to remind myself that I have only known about BPD for maybe 6 months, if that. How much damage did I do before finding out about it because I was shooting in the dark with one hand tied behind my back? Not only do I have to figure out how to not JADE and validate and all that stuff but I feel like I have to do a little bit of damage control on top of it because of the stupid stuff that I said and did because I thought I was dealing with a "normal" person.

[formflier]

How much damage did I do before finding out about it because I was shooting in the dark with one hand tied behind my back? 

This was me... .my "logic" invalidated her... .BIGTIME.

I honestly thought... .that if she was wrong... .she would want to know it... .so I would "prove it".

Again... .I chuckle.

For newbies reading this... .many people that are "untrained" in the ways of dealing with pwBPD... .will react in a way that looks like they are "running to what is natural for them... "

So... I used less emotion and more logic.  That is the "natural  me".  Unfortunately it was a perfect storm... .because I made her worse.  Didn't mean to... .but I have a huge part in this.

So... .goes to figure that I should have huge part in unraveling it

[Jack_50]

If our "rate" of agreements actually happening is about 10-20%... .and my "rate" of providing what I agree to my wife is around 80-90.  That is unbalanced.

She has become used to you providing most of your side, and relies on it.  She has seen that you do your part, even if she does not keep her side of the deal.  In that sense, you are actually enforcing her behavior.  She's quite comfortable with this situation, and has no incentive to change.

If I may ask : can you give an example of how you discussed this issue in the past?


Jack

[Notwendy]

My H is from a military family and maybe that's where the use of logic in an argument to win style comes from, but I never encountered it before until we were married and my H used it. At first, he sounded so correct and logical that I bought into it. It seemed more reasonable than the emotional soup that my family swam in. However, it did errode that soft emotional side to me that my H actually liked- as it was what was missing in his stoic critical family. You say it destroyed your wife- it did me too- not my spirit or soul, but the part of me that could be vulnerable and open to him, and eventually my sense of self. Being a people pleaser and co-dependent, I wanted to make my H happy, but it seemed that every attempt was met with invalidation, criticism, and if I tried to explain, (JADE) that made it worse and it resulted in a logical critical argument- that he always won because this is not something I did or was familiar with and he was so good at it.

I would just cry and give in, tell him he was right, but sometimes this made it worse. Only recently was I able to not take it personally and really listen. It's an argument based on how he feels, so it isn't based on reality. The logic makes it sound so. But his last one about me made no sense at all, and he brought in all kinds of things from the past to logically justify it as well as well as blamed me for something I had nothing to do with. This was illusion dressed up in logic.

In the early years of my marriage, I was willing to believe him. I took on all the care of the home and kids as well as a part time job, but eventually, one day, I just started crying and it didn't stop. In the beginning, when he argued with me like this, I would cry, and he'd ridicule that. He said it was best to be logical and so I tried to be that. I had never been depressed before, but I was. I remember telling him and he didn't even notice at first,  but I went on to T and this was the first step of the recovery process for me, but it took years to crawl out of that space. (on going). Eventually, he did catch on that something was amiss and tried to make some strides, but it was hard to sustain them.

Author Patricia Evans addresses the argument style of "arguing to win" in her books on verbal abuse. This doesn't mean that everyone who uses this is an abuser, but when mixed with verbal abuse it is pretty damaging and that's what this was. There's another argument style that isn't really an argument, but it is an exchange of feelings with the assumption that the two people are on the same side- no winner, no loser, just us. This is the position from which I approached my H to help resolve something. However, he saw it as a personal attack and a battle that he must win.

[Notwendy]

I see where having a critical tough ( verbally abusive I think ) father, who had a strictly traditional marriage ( wife basically waited on him) set the idea of a male role model and doing anything that his dad didn't do was a threat to his idea of being a man. Someone with a stronger sense of self would recognize that doing the dishes doesn't obliterate a male identity. That was something I would point out - I am sure that was hurtful, but I didn't get it. I could take out the trash, fix something in the house, and it didn't turn me into a man.

I get the ratio of their doing less to the nons doing more, but it is so wierd to me that I don't understand it. If we are a home and a team, then it needs to be done no matter who does it. There is some wierd measurement going on that I observed. He may help, but always less. He would put the kids to bed but it would always have to be less often than I did. There were some things he would agree to do but only if I "helped", which he didn't really need. He would empty the trash cans in the house, but I had to hold the trash bag- but I did this job alone all the time. He used to take the trash cans out to the curb, but one day, he decided I had to help. I was busy, and told him I couldn't. He pitched a fit and then said that I had told him I would take it on as a job (huh? I didn't say that). So I just said forget it and did it. Then he pointed out that I was in a huff over nothing. Now, I just do it when he's at work. It's not a battle I want to pursue.

Jack mentioned a man needs to unwind after work and not be given a list of tasks. I can promise that there was never a time where I would give him a list. Asking for one thing would result in such a meltdown, it was better not to ask at all. There was a time when he would come home from work, and I would put a plate of food in front of him, and leave the room. This was when I was depressed and it was all I could manage to deal with. He could eat, unwind all he wanted. This doesn't happen now and we do eat together and interact.

I suspect the underlying wish was for me to take it on, since he had to go to work early and it was an inconvenience to take them out on trash day. I would have been willing to do it if he just said that. But then there was the mess of asking me for something, and giving up a "man" job, and feeling bad about not taking on a job he thought I could do.

My mom has this strange thing with tasks too. Once she wanted one of the kids to do something and they were busy, so I said I would do it. She got upset and said " I want (kid) to do it". I realized what she wanted wasn't just the job being done, but something about this child doing something for her.

I just don't spend time and energy dealing with this stuff. Some things have to be done. Early on in our marriage, H announced that he will never make the bed, but I like clean sheets and so, I make it for me. He said he wasn't going to change diapers. ( he did on occasion ) but I was not about to let the baby sit in a dirty diaper, so I did it. It was easier than fighting.

It took co dependency programs to get me to see where I enabled the behavior I resented.

[Jack_50]

My H is from a military family and maybe that's where the use of logic in an argument to win style comes from, but I never encountered it before until we were married and my H used it. At first, he sounded so correct and logical that I bought into it. It seemed more reasonable than the emotional soup that my family swam in. However, it did errode that soft emotional side to me that my H actually liked- as it was what was missing in his stoic critical family. You say it destroyed your wife- it did me too- not my spirit or soul, but the part of me that could be vulnerable and open to him, and eventually my sense of self. Being a people pleaser and co-dependent, I wanted to make my H happy, but it seemed that every attempt was met with invalidation, criticism, and if I tried to explain, (JADE) that made it worse and it resulted in a logical critical argument- that he always won because this is not something I did or was familiar with and he was so good at it.

I would just cry and give in, tell him he was right, but sometimes this made it worse. Only recently was I able to not take it personally and really listen. It's an argument based on how he feels, so it isn't based on reality. The logic makes it sound so. But his last one about me made no sense at all, and he brought in all kinds of things from the past to logically justify it as well as well as blamed me for something I had nothing to do with. This was illusion dressed up in logic.

In the early years of my marriage, I was willing to believe him. I took on all the care of the home and kids as well as a part time job, but eventually, one day, I just started crying and it didn't stop. In the beginning, when he argued with me like this, I would cry, and he'd ridicule that. He said it was best to be logical and so I tried to be that. I had never been depressed before, but I was. I remember telling him and he didn't even notice at first,  but I went on to T and this was the first step of the recovery process for me, but it took years to crawl out of that space. (on going). Eventually, he did catch on that something was amiss and tried to make some strides, but it was hard to sustain them.

Author Patricia Evans addresses the argument style of "arguing to win" in her books on verbal abuse. This doesn't mean that everyone who uses this is an abuser, but when mixed with verbal abuse it is pretty damaging and that's what this was. There's another argument style that isn't really an argument, but it is an exchange of feelings with the assumption that the two people are on the same side- no winner, no loser, just us. This is the position from which I approached my H to help resolve something. However, he saw it as a personal attack and a battle that he must win.

NotWendy,

Great info, thank you.

Opposites attract initially, out of curiosity, but on the longer term the differences do create problems.  You need emotional connection to someone, while he needs life to be only practical.

Boys are shamed consistently for showing emotions, so they turn away from them, and only focus on the practical aspect of life.  And voila, over time you get logical, non-emotional adult men.

In that context, most men see any issue that comes to them as a problem that needs a solution, and don't even think about seeing it otherwise.  I think that it comes from the need to provide and protect their family members, and make sure they are all right (=have no unresolved issues).  Most men see that as their primary role, and specialize in it (too much), and become very solution-driven.  At his core, a man needs to be needed, he wants to be useful, have a purpose, and thus he goes for the fixer role.

And logical, unemotional fixers do not match well with people who need regular emotional connection; they live in a different world with different laws, so to speak.

I know I'm often still having trouble with recognizing that sometimes these "issues" are just my wife trying to fish for my support, coming from a need to connect to me.  There's not necessarily anything for me to solve there, but my fixer-habit is often quicker than my emotional reasoning, and I get down the fixer path before I know it.

But when I do take time to evaluate, and I understand it the way she meant it, it usually ends with 2 people walking hand in hand towards the sunset, so to speak.

Still a lot to learn... .

Jack

[Jack_50]

I see where having a critical tough ( verbally abusive I think ) father, who had a strictly traditional marriage ( wife basically waited on him) set the idea of a male role model and doing anything that his dad didn't do was a threat to his idea of being a man. Someone with a stronger sense of self would recognize that doing the dishes doesn't obliterate a male identity. That was something I would point out - I am sure that was hurtful, but I didn't get it. I could take out the trash, fix something in the house, and it didn't turn me into a man.

I get the ratio of their doing less to the nons doing more, but it is so wierd to me that I don't understand it. If we are a home and a team, then it needs to be done no matter who does it. There is some wierd measurement going on that I observed. He may help, but always less. He would put the kids to bed but it would always have to be less often than I did. There were some things he would agree to do but only if I "helped", which he didn't really need. He would empty the trash cans in the house, but I had to hold the trash bag- but I did this job alone all the time. He used to take the trash cans out to the curb, but one day, he decided I had to help. I was busy, and told him I couldn't. He pitched a fit and then said that I had told him I would take it on as a job (huh? I didn't say that). So I just said forget it and did it. Then he pointed out that I was in a huff over nothing. Now, I just do it when he's at work. It's not a battle I want to pursue.

Jack mentioned a man needs to unwind after work and not be given a list of tasks. I can promise that there was never a time where I would give him a list. Asking for one thing would result in such a meltdown, it was better not to ask at all. There was a time when he would come home from work, and I would put a plate of food in front of him, and leave the room. This was when I was depressed and it was all I could manage to deal with. He could eat, unwind all he wanted. This doesn't happen now and we do eat together and interact.

I suspect the underlying wish was for me to take it on, since he had to go to work early and it was an inconvenience to take them out on trash day. I would have been willing to do it if he just said that. But then there was the mess of asking me for something, and giving up a "man" job, and feeling bad about not taking on a job he thought I could do.

My mom has this strange thing with tasks too. Once she wanted one of the kids to do something and they were busy, so I said I would do it. She got upset and said " I want (kid) to do it". I realized what she wanted wasn't just the job being done, but something about this child doing something for her.

I just don't spend time and energy dealing with this stuff. Some things have to be done. Early on in our marriage, H announced that he will never make the bed, but I like clean sheets and so, I make it for me. He said he wasn't going to change diapers. ( he did on occasion ) but I was not about to let the baby sit in a dirty diaper, so I did it. It was easier than fighting.

It took co dependency programs to get me to see where I enabled the behavior I resented.

Most men feel clumsy doing home chores, and that's why they don't like them.  Our dads often did not do them, so we did not get a role model in that sense, nor any experience in doing them.  

Deep inside, we actually want to be our wife's hero, which means we certainly do not want to look like an idiot who doesn't know how to do house chores while she watches.  And unfortunately our wife's supportive advice is taken in this context as belittling, and frustrates us.  In the end, it's our pride that is at play here.  And that's hard to let go of when you strive for hero-dom.

I myself needed quite some time to get over it, but now I do all the dishes, clean the floor and do all the laundry at home.  And I haven't lost my gender yet

The list I mentioned was speaking symbolically.  When I get home, the first things that my wife often tells me is "hurry, there's a lot to do!".  While my only wish is to greet everyone happily, and be welcomed back in the family after a long day in the office.  This has highest priority, and new tasks are a big no-no before this ritual is finished; but give me 15 minutes, and I'm ready to rock your world again.  I think it is probably related to a deep-rooted instinct (returning to the tribe or something).

Jack

[vortex of confusion]

Jack mentioned a man needs to unwind after work and not be given a list of tasks. I can promise that there was never a time where I would give him a list. Asking for one thing would result in such a meltdown, it was better not to ask at all. There was a time when he would come home from work, and I would put a plate of food in front of him, and leave the room. This was when I was depressed and it was all I could manage to deal with. He could eat, unwind all he wanted. This doesn't happen now and we do eat together and interact.

When I get home, the first things that my wife often tells me is "hurry, there's a lot to do!".  While my only wish is to greet everyone happily, and be welcomed back in the family after a long day in the office.  This has highest priority, and new tasks are a big no-no before this ritual is finished; but give me 15 minutes, and I'm ready to rock your world again.  I think it is probably related to a deep-rooted instinct (returning to the tribe or something).

I have been following the conversation between Jack and Notwendy and the above stood out. It stood out because it seems to be making the issue about gender roles. I don't see how gender plays a part. I work two part time jobs AND I homeschool the kids. Why is it that the expectation is that a man gets welcomed back home and gets time to regroup? When my husband gets home a lot of days, the kids and I are at the the kitchen table so we can sit down and eat as a family. When he gets home, he comes in, changes his clothes, and does what he wants for the most part.

When I go to work and come home, I don't get any special greetings or special treatment. A lot of days I walk in the door and get bombarded with things that need taken care of. The kids will save up their requests for me. And, the other problem that I have with the idea that a man needs to unwind when he comes home in the evening is that it assumes that the stay at home partner hasn't had a long day and hasn't really done anything that he/she would need to regroup or recover from. Being a stay at home partner with a bunch of kids is a lot of work and can try a person's patience.

[formflier]

If I may ask : can you give an example of how you discussed this issue in the past?

Sure thing... .by the past... .I'm thinking you are asking about "pre-BPD" knowledge.

to be clear to all... .this is not the way to do it.  This is an example from my past... before I learned tools

So... .I am in room ... let's say kitchen.  She walks in and "ignores" or doesn't ask about the work that I have done in there.  Let's say dishwasher is running because I unloaded and reloaded it.  She would identify "something amiss" and ask or tell me about it.  Usually this was pleasant... .to a slight edge.  

I might defend myself a bit... .or point out that I had done the dishes.  In my view that would be ignored and she would return to whatever was amiss and complain about it... .and at some point she would probably use the words... ."you never help with that... "

I would usually protest... .she would claim she knew what she was talking about... .I would say she was wrong that I did help... she would say prove it.  I would.  

It always befuddled me that once I proved I was a helpful husband and actually helped with the things she claimed I "never" helped with... .that she was not happy.  I mean... .who wouldn't want a helpful husband.

So... I proved myself right and blameless.  She was p$ssed... .I was confused.  I would usually explain again how she should be happy...

Hopefully a distraction would come along to end it... .because I was never smart enough to "walk away"... .I was right (and I was... .from my point of view)  and was not going to "cop a plea bargain" to appease an unreasonable woman that couldn't look at reality.

Then... .she would usually wake me up at middle of the night to remind me how much of an a$$hole I was... .start the cycle over again.

How does that picture look?

Whew... glad those days are over... .!  

[Jack_50]

Hello VOC,

I'm in the same situation as you when I get home, usually there's no welcome and a long todo list waiting.

I think that gender should not play a role here:  I welcome my wife when she gets back, ask her how it was, let her change and do what needs to be done, and only start discussing about things still to do, once she's all settled in.  The way I would like to be treated.  Unfortunately the favor is not returned... .Maybe I just need to explain a bit better about the ritual... .

And if you, as the stay-at-home partner, are equally exhausted, it's probably best to equally unwind in the evening.  The todo list can often wait.  We're all human, and can only do so much in a day.


Jack

[formflier]

  Unfortunately the favor is not returned... .Maybe I just need to explain a bit better about the ritual... .

This is "normal" in BPD r/s... that things are "unequal" and "unbalanced".

Anytime you think that you need to "explain" something to fix it... .tread carefully

You are in a minefield.

I'm not saying don't explain... .you just have to check the rules... .and if explaining hasn't gone well in the past... .do it a different way.

There is a "way" to get it done... .you just have to find it.  You have to be in tune with your partner.

Many times while "explaining" we end up invalidating... .or our partners hear that they are doing something wrong.

The concept of good better best doesn't seem to process for them... .it only seems to be good/bad

You will see lots of mention about black and white thinking that seems to support this observation

[vortex of confusion]

Unfortunately the favor is not returned... .Maybe I just need to explain a bit better about the ritual... .

And perhaps there doesn't need to be an explanation. Like FF says, tread lightly with explanations. Is there a way to clearly state the need without explanation? For example, focus on "I need 15 minutes when I get home." No explanations, no justifications. A simple statement of need. The problem that I have is the lack of follow through. I think I have stated something clearly and he acts like he heard me but there still isn't much, if any, follow through.

There is a "way" to get it done... .you just have to find it.  You have to be in tune with your partner.

Many times while "explaining" we end up invalidating... .or our partners hear that they are doing something wrong.

FF, I think I know what you are getting at with this. I keep wondering how to get in tune with my partner. We will have great talks and things will feel like they are going in a positive direction and then, BAM, something happens and I feel like I have lost all ground and feel the need to start explaining or using mathematics to get my point across. I am thinking of an example with the dishes. I ask him to help me by emptying the dishwasher. He can't seem to wash dishes and get them clean so we agreed that I would load the dishwasher and he puts them away. Last night, I lightheartedly said that everything in the dishwasher was clean. He opened it up, saw that everything was still wet, and said, "I will empty it tomorrow. Everything is still too wet." I made a silly joke and left it at that. My problem is that I have already emptied the dishwasher several times this week. I am trying to think of how to handle things if he doesn't get to it tonight. I have clearly stated my need repeatedly. I have tried to give him ample time and space to complete the task yet it still isn't happening. I am changing my part of the dance by not nagging and trying to be more mindful of how I bring up topics and when I bring them up so that I am not inadvertantly invalidating him. And, I am trying to avoid using specifics such as being able to enumerate things such as how many times I have done something or how much time has passed since the last time he did something. His other chore is to change the cat box. That has been his thing since early in the marriage. He made a big deal about getting cat litter over a week ago yet still hasn't changed the cat boxes.

Something as simple as asking him why it hasn't been done can be very invalidating to him. How does one work with that?

[Notwendy]

I'll address the gender issues, and it is very helpful to hear Jack's explanation as this is the world my H grew up in and formed his ideas of his identity as a man. It was as rigid and controlling as his father was. My H didn't entirely buy into it, and was less like this when we dated. Much of this came out after we were married, but it makes sense that with the stress of supporting a family and the emotional investment in the relationship, that the rigidity would emerge as a way to preserve his sense of self ( not that it is right, but it is in alignment with that push/pull and the fear connected with being close).

I didn't understand it at all as it wasn't something I even considered would happen. I was not interested in gender roles so much. Had I married someone who earned less than me, I would have been the breadwinner with my husband taking on more of the home duties, however, my H earned more than me and it made sense to take on more traditional roles. I see the family as a unit with each person taking on some roles, not all 50-50 but in general some sort of division that works best, and so this worked for the family. What I was not prepared for was the rigidity, the rages, the projections and constant circular arguments. Had my H been like Jack desctribed, a traditional man, I would have been OK with it, because a healthy human can see where what he/she is doing is hurtful or not working and make exceptions to agreements in certain cases.

People are human. Someone can do the dishes most of the time, but sometimes, if the kids are sick, or the mom isn't feeling well, even a traditional man can see that this is time to help, just like I can see that if taking out the trash makes my H late for work, then I can help. What was missing was the natural give and take of these events. If I didn't do the dishes they were not going to be done. If I asked, I he would get angry. I was exhausted a lot of the time, but it didn't make a difference to him. He had these "logical" arguments about fairness, and doing my job meant doing two jobs to him and that wasn't fair. I never thought in those terms. Our family life was both of ours. He chose to divide it that way.

It is true opposites attract, and my H's stabilty was very attractive to me as my emotionality was to him. That would have been OK with me too, if there wasn't a raging volcano of anger under that stability. I could have lived with less emotional connection. We would make great room mates living parallel lives, but a problem arises when there is raging+lack of emotional connection and the H still expects great sex. I would never withhold as punishment and actually did  give him what he needed physically, however, this, for me, was not the setting to have desire. He picks up on that, and expects me to be the whole package- want, love, desire him. He has tried  hard to change that, and let me connect emotionally to a point, thanks to realizing his contribution to my depression. The rages are not as frequent. T and codependency has helped with that, but they are hard on me emotionally.

As to FF's discussion with his wife. It's funny because my H tells me he can never do enough for me, but I wonder if it is a projection of his experience with his dad, because I don't have unrealistic expectations of him. But his projections affect me. I can do everything I think he wants but sometimes it isn't right. I can think we have some sort of agreement but he can undo it in a minute. I had to take a child somewhere on Father's Day- something school related that he understood was important, and I thought he understood that we'd celebrate early. I thought he understood that. I planned a nice dinner and gifts for him the day before. The next day, he raged about me missing Fathers day and not having a nice dinner. Take this kind of thing into the bedroom, and it is very damaging.

[Notwendy]

I don't like the idea of saying always or never, but in our case it is always:

"Many times while "explaining" we end up invalidating... .or our partners hear that they are doing something wrong."

I didn't put his critical dad's voice in his head, but it doesn't take much to activate it.

[formflier]

I don't like the idea of saying always or never, but in our case it is always:

"Many times while "explaining" we end up invalidating... .or our partners hear that they are doing something wrong."

I didn't put his critical dad's voice in his head, but it doesn't take much to activate it.

Once you detect it has been activated... .what do you do now?  What did you used to do?

Yes... .there are times when always is correct... but that is very rare.

If "slaying" the always in your r/s is something that will help you feel better... .you can do this

[Edgewood]

Hi Formflier,

Can you give an example of the 80 – 90% that she wants, which you provide?

Maybe it’s just me, but I see so much gender expectation in your posts.  It makes me sad for both of you.  You say that you want to co-parent, but is that really what you’re doing?  Several times, you have mentioned that you “help” or are “helpful” to your wife.  Do you see the difference between a helper and a partner?  A helper assists someone with THEIR work; partners perform SHARED work.  Do you see how that outlook shifts the responsibility? With a partner, she's not in it alone; the load isn't all on her shoulders.

When the 2-year old came into your room, couldn’t you have taken her back to bed, instead of instructing your wife to do so?  If you want a family dinner, couldn’t you plan a menu, go to the grocery store, set the table, cook the turkey and serve the family dinner?  Is your wife the only one who can reset the baby’s schedule?  Are all these things really your wife’s failure to give you what you want?  What are you doing to get what you want?

It’s clear that you’re old school and there’s nothing wrong with that.  I’m guessing that a military man had mostly baby boomers as mentors and role models.  But, YOU aren’t a baby boomer, formflier.  You are a young man with a young family in the 21st Century.  Honestly, your family is simply too big to expect the woman to do all the “women’s work.”  Eight children generate TOO MUCH “women’s work” to maintain traditional roles.

I see how things could have been very different for you if you had taken complete responsibility for the family dinner and said, “Honey, I’m not sure about how to cook this turkey.  Will you share some of your cooking expertise to help me?”  Can you imagine how her perception of you would change if you partnered instead of helped?

[Notwendy]

If my H did that- actually took on what he thinks is "my" job, even for one night, as a kindness,  it would be the most incredible gift because it would show me that we really are partners.

There's actually a gag gift book called "Porn for Women". There is no porn in it. It is pictures of handsome men doing household tasks: the dishes, taking care of the baby, vaccuming. The reason why it is called "Porn for Women" is that it satisfies our deep emotional need to have a connected partnership, even if the jobs aren't divided 50/50. It's a statement of "ours" not yours. The guys in the pictures aren't so bad either.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .