To Pursue or Not To Pursue?

[Restored2]

My ex-girlfriend strongly appears to have borderline personality disorders (BPD).  She abruptly broke up with me via an email entitled "Goodbye" and a matching voice mail message that was just as cold and harsh.  Then she immediately blocked me out via telephone, text and email.  The breakup was almost five months ago now.  None of this is warranted, as I have done nothing to deserve this mistreatment and have only treated her well.  She told me prior to her breaking up with me that she wants to be pursued.  :)oes this mean that she is wanting me to chase after her?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[JRT]

First and foremost, I am really sorry to hear that this has happened. There are plenty of resources here that will help you not only to confirm your suspicions, but also to help you to deal with the pain and frustration that this has caused you. Everyone on this site has been through something similar (or worse, trust me, I have read about some really ugly things here) and want to help... .keep posting on the boards and you will begin to piece answers together. Keep in mind a couple of things: 1-it is NOT your fault. This is a mental illness and there is absolutely zero that you could have done to prevent this from happening 2-it gets better, just hang in there

What you describe is typical to the extent that I almost made the comment 'we must have been dating the same woman'. Mine did a 'disappearing act' 3.5 months ago... .she left when I was out of town after moving in just 3 weeks prior, we were engaged and having a very good relationship. We never argued or had disagreements at all. I went out of town on business and she sent me a text saying that our relationship was over... .she had moved out ... .and I should never attempt to contact her... .Hows that for sudden? Keep in mind that with BPD, the fear of abandonment is a strong fear. In her case, her 18 year old son moved out of the house (trigger), she had moved into a new place (stress) then I went out of town leaving her alone for the first time in her adult life (trigger). It freaked her out. This might give you some ideas on why yours did what she did.

Mine also blocked me from contacting her in every conceivable way; phone, text, email, social media (she went several steps further by not only blocking me, but unfriending all of my friends and compelling her family and friends to do the same). This is called splitting where they see the world only in terms of black and white, good and bad... .I am now bad: she has painted me black not only to herself, but to her friends and family. Sometimes through what is called a distortion campaign, they go ahead and manufacture whatever they have to in order to make what are baseless claims the gods honest truth including involving law enforcement and the courts. I can only imagine what mine has told people about me in order to explain her dramatic actions.

While a bulk of BPD's seem to remain in some form of contact to an irritating level after the fact, some don't and some never reach back out at all. Even if they do, its only because they are not able to find someone with whom to attach that will help to satisfy their inherent need to take emotional comfort (until the do the same with them). This is called recycling and I have read of accounts where it this happens up to a dozen times or more re initiating under the guise that they have changed or any machination to restore the status quo - they often times return as if nothing at all had happened! Although that never happened to me, I did get recycled a half dozen times during the 2 years we were together.

My ex also made it clear that she liked to be chased and suggested that if anything would happen in the future that she would want for me to come after her. Maybe she meant it and maybe she didn't, same as yours. I can tell you this, the two times that I called her were met with a letter from an attorney threatening a PPO and one from the cops. It would take a lot more than this to earn a PPO, but the possibility that my name becomes legally besmirched by a crazy woman really pissed me off (if you carry a weapon, you right to do so if revoked with a ppo).

Mine was not like most of the relationships that I read about here, stormy, argumentative, violent, frustrating to say the least. Mine was mostly pleasant (with some problems that I knew were certain to come up) and I have fond memories. Part of me wishes that I woke up only to find that this was just a really bad nightmare and that everything was the way it was the night before my trip. If you are of the same thinking, and wish that there was something that you could do to compel her to you, chasing her is not the trick. I read an article about chasing and women where the consensus was that they liked to be chased, but only by the right man. Since you are painted black, that is not you I am sorry to say. 

Not sure if you have been trying to contact her at all. If you have, then stop. This feeds them in a way where they derive a sense of power over you knowing that they can come back at any time - you are the contingency plan and available at the drop of a dime, you have already demonstrated it. Some people say that you are out of sight and out of mind at this point, while others insist that when you cut them off, this denies them that power. So, stop calling, texting and emailing. Block them on FB and make sure that you do all that you can to mitigate the amount of info that gets back to them through mutual friends and such if at all possible.

I really hope that this helps and that things work out well. 

[Restored2]

Thank you JRT for your supportive and encouraging response, with insights and sharing of your own personal BPD relationship experience.  Much appreciated.  It helps for me to put into better perspective.

Your BPD relationship experience sounds very similar to mine.  You also sound like you've been through the ringer, mate.  We never really argued either and our relationship was mostly pleasant with fond memories too.  My girlfriend had many transitional changes and stressors affecting her prior to her breakup with me as well.  Stress appears to be another triggering factor in this world of BPD.  I can relate to you, as I feel like I've been living a bad nightmare since the abrupt breakup from her.

I have made minimal contact with her over the course of almost 5 months since the breakup, involving a phone call and some letters.  I have told her that the door remains open on my end, as I have not abandoned either her or our friendship.  From what you said, this would empower her. 

I am curious what it takes to be painted white again?   

[JRT]

To the normal person, you would be the recipient of some sort of medal or award; you took the breakup standing up... .you gave her the space she apparently needed... .send her a letter or two letting her know your thought and expressed that you would be there when she needed you. I think that you are a stand up man! Any normal woman would swoon. I can't speak for her, but I can say that BPD's are not normal. There are those here that would speculate that this has empowered her even more... .even that she has lost respect for you by your lingering. Others that might just say, 'get over it, its just over'. But if you are like me, its the WAY that it ended on top of the fact that it was, by all accounts, a good relationship by and large. There is this untied end that just keeps lingering... .YOU know what I am talking about.

You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. Don't try to chase her and attempt to keep in touch, and you confirmed that you were going to abandon her. Try to reach out to her and you are stalking her. You cannot win! It appears that I am of the same fabric as you; I don't like to sit around and wait for things to happen. If I knew of the magic thing to say to mine and had a chance to say it that would make it all go away, I would suffer through great privation in order to do it. But... .there is nothing you can do.

You have signaled your intention. She knows that you are still there... .let time work its magic and she may come back. If she does, be really careful what you wish for; she has to come back aware of her problem and have been working on it or this WILL happen again and it appears to become progressively worse.

Be also prepared for her to never return. This is a hard one for me as I REALLY felt after 48 years on this earth that, finally, this was the ONE for me. The that God sent for me especially. and that's not just poetry talk. To be good to you, its important to brace for this eventuality... .I wish I could tell you that it is going to be easy.

Hang in there brother. Keep on these forums. Write. Read. They both help. This too shall pass. 

[Restored2]

Thank you for your response back, JRT.  I really appreciate your sensitivity,encouragement and support with words of affirmation.

If there are any medals or awards being handed out, then you sound like you should be a recipient at the front of the line.  I'm not sure how "standing up" I was in how I took the breakup, as I was more in a curled up fetal position from the devastating blow.  My self esteem has taken a HUGE beating from the fallout of a shattered heart and being hit with major depression from it all.  Just the same, I accept your compliment of being a "stand up man". 

Interesting what you said about "any normal woman would swoon" over what I have done, by giving her space and sending her a few letters expressing my heart with letting her know that I am still here for her.  I'm not sure what "normal" is for her.  She told me that she has given me her heart, but that she just takes it back from time to time.  A woman who is married to a friend of mine read my letters and said that she would be really impressed to receive the letters that I sent to my BPD ex-girlfriend.  My hope is that my BPD ex-girlfriend was touched in some swooning like fashion by what I have done.

I definitely know what you are talking about in regards to the way that it all ended with it being an overall great relationship.  The untied end that keeps lingering can easily gnaw at ones soul... .   

It does feel like a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of scenario.  It does appear that you and I speak the same thought language and are of the "same fabric" here.  I'm not a guy who likes to sit around and wait for things to happen either.  Doing what I feel lead to be best amidst the trying circumstances without being overkill, is an action recipe towards feeling better with a clearer conscience on my end.  We need to stop doing everything just for the sake of the BPD person and start looking at what is best for us and the restoration/reconciliation of the relationship too.

I have already let her know via letter that I desire a relationship redo with her, but that counselling would need to be at the forefront for us to move forwards.  Otherwise, I can see it being a bumpy road all over again.

Your talk is not poetry to me at all.  You appear to be a man of Christian faith, as I am.  I can relate to you in regards to believing her to be finally "the one for me" at over 40 years of age.  Her and I also believe that God saved us for each other, with us talking about getting married.  Ironically, she was the one who pursued me in the friendship, dating, and she initiated talk towards us getting married after only a couple of months dating.

She said something that leaves me wondering where she is coming from.  That being that if we ever broke up that she would not be able to be friends with me for some time down the road.  I can only assume that this is for the purpose of further distancing from her emotions towards me.  Any insights into this?

As difficult as it is to see right now, I know that "this too shall pass".

[JRT]

Yes... .I am a Christian as well... .I recall going to mass every week and not asking God for this or that, I THANKED him every week for my good fortune and His blessing of a great relationship... .I was very happy.

As to what she said about not being friends... .I am not really sure... .But time and space will tell

Hang tough!

And thank you for the compliment... .I am paying it forward.

[EaglesJuju]

Hi Restored2,

I am sorry that you are going through such a difficult time.    Adding on to JRT's well written replies, the best thing you can do for either outcome (her reconnecting or not) is to take care of yourself. Working on yourself helps with either reconnecting or detaching. It is hard to forget ourselves when we have been coping with erratic and confusing behavior for so long.  You are important too! Have you had a chance to focus on yourself and heal?

She said something that leaves me wondering where she is coming from.  That being that if we ever broke up that she would not be able to be friends with me for some time down the road.  I can only assume that this is for the purpose of further distancing from her emotions towards me.  Any insights into this?

My pwBPD is self aware at times. He explained devaluation/splitting to me as this, "I distance myself from you because when I talk to you or am around you, I feel ashamed, guilty, sad, and like a terrible person. I tend to be mean to you so I can push you away. I feel bad for what I have done and do not deserve to have you. I deserve living in my own depressing misery. I associate you with those feelings of shame and guilt.  It is easier for me to cope this way. "

[JRT]

Eagle... .thank you for the compliment... .its nice of you to say this and also provide support for our new friend.

I ahve a question for you regarding your BPD... .does any level of explanation or reassurance help? "You ARE worthy" "You have nothing for which to be ashamed'? Does that sort of thing have any effect?

[Restored2]

Thank you JRT and EaglesJuju for your sensitive supportive responses with insights and words of encouragement.

JRT: That's cool that you are a Christian too!  I feel for your loss in your relationship, brother.  It's extremely difficult to wrap ones brain around, let alone ones heart and soul.  As for the compliment, you're welcome.  You've got me thinking... .You said that you have recycled a half a dozen times during your 2 years together.  Did she breakup with you every time?  What were the longest time periods between each breakup?  Did she ever abruptly cut you off and block you out with threats the way that she did this last time?  How did she re-initiate contact with you each time?  What were the reasons she gave you for leaving you when she came back?

EaglesJuju: I agree with you, JRT has provided some well written replies, that have been very informative and thought provoking.  I have not focused on myself and my own healing as a priority.  As you referred to, I have been struggling to cope with the confusion of it all.  As a result, I have been lost and confused in a world of apathy, which is not my norm.  That is quite the dark insight provided by your pwBPD on devaluation/splitting.  If you cause them such a negative reaction, why would he want to be around you then?  Has he ever told you what you do to trigger being devalued/split?

[JRT]

Yes... .it was she that broke up each time (breaking up is not my way of going about things)... .the shortest period was a few hours (last xmas eve)... .the longest period was 2 months... .3.5 if you count this time... .but i have heard of some returning years later... .(I know what you are looking for)... .the last time before this one, she began to block me and such on fb, but was definitely a lite version of what she did this time... .she has gone through EXTRAORDINARY lengths to prevent any contact of any kind... .each time she re-initiated contact via email, there was always some 'unfinished business' that she could have easily ignored... .she used them as 'rationale' for contacting me and saving face at the same time (on one, she managed my web page; "Here is the logon to your web page, have a good day". Then a phone call... .then a conversation (her always angry trying to draw me into an argument)... .then a meeting (she always said that all that it took was for her to see me and the episode ended right there and then, strange. But I am sure that whatever it is, THAT is what she is working hard to avoid). She never gave reasons... .there were always some pseudo reasons for her anger and leaving, but never shared with me her logic for returning but I can guess it is because I loved her and she loved me... .maybe she just needed me. I wish I knew... .

[Restored2]

JRT, thank you for answering my questions with sharing your personal relationship experience.  You've had an intense roller coaster ride experience.  I hear ya on breaking up, as it is not my way of going about things either.  There just seems to be soo much senseless to these relationships that is beyond baffling.

[JRT]

Its a mental illness remember... .if you do get back with her, the only way that you will avoid seeing this in the future is if she is treated for it. YOu simply cannot talk this back into flying straight.

[Restored2]

I agree with your words of wisdom, JRT.  It's irrational behaviour that simply cannot be rationalized or be a "talk this back into flying straight" kind of deal.  I let her know in one of my letters to her that I desire a relationship redo with her, but that we would need to attend counselling together in order to move forwards.  I'm curious, would you take yours back again?

[JRT]

There is a part of me that would... .but there is another part of me that would never.

I built a life with her for 2 years... .she was highly compatible on many levels and we were planning our future. But what she did to me is one thing... .how it affected my daughter is another. My 15 year old looked up to her and accepted her into her heart as her step-mother. I worked VERY hard over the years of being divorced to keep away any woman who might do emotional or physical harm to her and I let in the worst possible element to her. My daughter has now been 'sad' and doesn't understand why (she is depressed).

On top of everything, I now have trust issues as she clearly planned her disappearance in advance and lied by omission to me in the days preceding it... .she enjoined her family and friends in the caper as well. Rather than challenge her and her motives (like healthy people would do - my family would press me hard with a 'what the hell are you doing? kind of approach), they simply complied with her demands to extend the anger and pain. These are people that were supposed to accept me on the condition of the human being that I am, not conditional upon my relationship with my ex. How could I ever look these people in the eye ever again knowing that if I were to get back with her and the situation would repeat, that they would unceremoniously flush me again?

Along those lines, a friend of hers initiated an IM session with me in an attempt to return some property a couple of weeks ago. This was someone that I only met a couple of times; the first time where I had gone to a place where she had just moved in and put together furniture and helped her to move in - I never even met this person and that was the kind of giving that I was doing! The IM was incredible; there was not even a stitch of sensitivity or civility but then again, if the ex is painting herself to be the victim, then it goes without saying. Her contempt and disrespect for me was pretty clear even though these were the same friends that prior to the b/e were telling her 'they just don't make 'em like him any more'.

Her son is another bone of contention here where we don't have the time or space to discuss fully. He is a 4 year old in an 18 year olds body. Entirely irresponsible, highly annoying and 100% socially and functionally broken. Imagine what a BPD can create in a child! I would say that 80% of our conversations were about him and some behavioral problem that he was having. With me, he attempted to cross the boundaries I had established for him over and over again (he once squared up against me, THAT would have been funny) until toward the end, had sworn at me and I no longer was speaking with him. I had done SO much for him and the rest of the family recognized that he treated me far different that ANYONE else in his life to the extent that they remarked that if I was in his life ten years earlier, that he would have turned out far differently. I would NEVER knowingly return to that.

So... .I am of the mind that if I DID get back with her, that I would never wish to see her family, friends, son ever again or would be allowed in my home. Kinda makes it difficult huh?

[EaglesJuju]

That is quite the dark insight provided by your pwBPD on devaluation/splitting.  If you cause them such a negative reaction, why would he want to be around you then?  Has he ever told you what you do to trigger being devalued/split?

Right now we are separated. It is a long story, but the reason he left was to get help from a psychiatrist he was working with in the past.  My bf never has split me completely black.

He has had trouble communicating with me, until 2 months ago. He told me that it literally caused him physical/mental pain when he talked to me, not because of anything I did, but his own feelings. Also, he told me that he did everything that he could think of to push me away. According to him, he pushes away everyone before they can leave him. He did not believe that anyone would still be there for him even with all the pushing/projecting. My steadfastness helped him a little with his abandonment fears.

He has told me when he is dysregulating to leave him alone. That is not what he wants at all. On a more cogent day, he said to give him a hug and tell him everything is going to be alright. I brought up the contradiction and he told me to always give him a hug. 

[JRT]

That is quite the dark insight provided by your pwBPD on devaluation/splitting.  If you cause them such a negative reaction, why would he want to be around you then?  Has he ever told you what you do to trigger being devalued/split?

Right now we are separated. It is a long story, but the reason he left was to get help from a psychiatrist he was working with in the past.  My bf never has split me completely black.

He has had trouble communicating with me, until 2 months ago. He told me that it literally caused him physical/mental pain when he talked to me, not because of anything I did, but his own feelings. Also, he told me that he did everything that he could think of to push me away. According to him, he pushes away everyone before they can leave him. He did not believe that anyone would still be there for him even with all the pushing/projecting. My steadfastness helped him a little with his abandonment fears.

He has told me when he is dysregulating to leave him alone. That is not what he wants at all. On a more cogent day, he said to give him a hug and tell him everything is going to be alright. I brought up the contradiction and he told me to always give him a hug. 

So I take it that you are still together?

[Restored2]

JRT: It does kinda make it difficult, to say the least.  Hearing your fuller story I can completely appreciate your divided position with not really wanting to get back together with her again.  It's extremely unfortunate that your daughter got caught in the cross fire with being depressed from the fallout.  I can totally understand how you would have trust issues after all that your ex has dragged you through.  In addition to the challenges of your ex, you are book ended with her having a very unhealthy group of family and friends to contend with as well.  Her fickle friends appear to be made of a much different cloth than both you and I are.  Sounds like her son was beyond a challenge.  I feel for you in this difficult predicament.  Do you feel like you are making any progress in your healing process? 

EaglesJuju: This is quite insightful stuff!  I still don't understand why anyone like him would want to be around you then, if you are causing him such a negative reaction?  I'm curious what would have caused him to shift towards communicating with you better from 2 months ago?  Also, is there anything that you are doing to trigger his devaluation/splitting of you? 

[JRT]

JRT: It does kinda make it difficult, to say the least.  Hearing your fuller story I can completely appreciate your divided position with not really wanting to get back together with her again.  It's extremely unfortunate that your daughter got caught in the cross fire with being depressed from the fallout.  I can totally understand how you would have trust issues after all that your ex has dragged you through.  In addition to the challenges of your ex, you are book ended with her having a very unhealthy group of family and friends to contend with as well.  Her fickle friends appear to be made of a much different cloth than both you and I are.  Sounds like her son was beyond a challenge.  I feel for you in this difficult predicament.  Do you feel like you are making any progress in your healing process? 

EaglesJuju: This is quite insightful stuff!  I still don't understand why anyone like him would want to be around you then, if you are causing him such a negative reaction?  I'm curious what would have caused him to shift towards communicating with you better from 2 months ago?  Also, is there anything that you are doing to trigger his devaluation/splitting of you? 

Thanks man... .I fade in and I fade out a little bit... .these boards are a better way of bouncing elements off of people to see if they have any depth of insight or similar experiences, it works (but I wonder if stopping in here as much as I do is preventing progress)

Yeah, its very frustrating. If I had done anything like this, my family and friends would have murdered me until I went back on my hands and knees begging for her forgiveness. Her friends are like the Three Stooges of relationships themselves and are doing much to enable her,  hence that IM (though I suspect that her other friends blew off the request). Birds of a feather flock together.

Ditto with her family who created her anyway.  Its funny, I asked her dad who confirmed that she has done this to EVERYONE she has known (including family members), why his family went along with unfriending me on social media. He equated it to familial unity. I coulda punched the guy in the nose: I wanted to scream into the phone 'THATS CALLED ENABLEMENT!'.

Anyhow, I digress. I am about 75% of my former self. I know that it is going to take time and distance.

Thanks for checking in.

[Restored2]

For sure, JRT.  Yeah, I think we can all have our moments of fluctuating ups and downs from time to time.  It's definitely a journey of sorts... .  I think there needs to be a balance on how much we "stop in" to these message boards and other information gathering, lest we become consumed by being pulled deeper into the emotional abyss of BPD.

I can totally relate to what you mentioned about your family and friends murdering you if you had of done anything like this to her.  For me personally, I would not really be able to live with myself, let alone look myself in the mirror while brushing my teeth.  Then there would be my family and friends who would be holding me accountable and correcting me for my mistreatment towards her.  I'm not sure how people who mistreat others, like we have been mistreated, can go on living their lives the way they appear to. 

You're bang on about your ex's family and friends enabling her BIG time.  This is where the odds are stacked against you too.  I believe that my ex-girlfriend's sister-in-law and 3 closest girlfriends are different with not being enablers, but I am not certain.  My other discussion post on here entitled "From Darkness to Light", addresses this area of approaching these same 4 women in order to make them aware of her disorder in hopes of helping her.  What's your take on this, if your ex's family and friends were on this same page of not enabling her?  Would you see it as being worth the risk to approach?

[EaglesJuju]

EaglesJuju: This is quite insightful stuff!  I still don't understand why anyone like him would want to be around you then, if you are causing him such a negative reaction?  I'm curious what would have caused him to shift towards communicating with you better from 2 months ago?  Also, is there anything that you are doing to trigger his devaluation/splitting of you? 

Technically he is not around me. There are thousands of miles of distance in between us. He is in therapy and is learning to regulate his emotions, so communication has gotten better.

He told me that he "fights the negative emotions associated with me because, he loves me." He will tolerate the negative emotions when he is not dysregulating.  When he is dysregulating, he will push me away and project.

My own issues do trigger him. I have DPD/codependency and my own abandonment fears. I tend to pull or get close when I feel "abandoned."  Sometimes, it overwhelms him and he will lash out.  Other times, he can be supportive and validate me.   

[Restored2]

Thank you for clarifying, EaglesJuju.  Sounds like quite the complicated relationship dynamics involved.  Hopefully you both can progress forwards.

[JRT]

For sure, JRT.  Yeah, I think we can all have our moments of fluctuating ups and downs from time to time.  It's definitely a journey of sorts... .  I think there needs to be a balance on how much we "stop in" to these message boards and other information gathering, lest we become consumed by being pulled deeper into the emotional abyss of BPD.

I can totally relate to what you mentioned about your family and friends murdering you if you had of done anything like this to her.  For me personally, I would not really be able to live with myself, let alone look myself in the mirror while brushing my teeth.  Then there would be my family and friends who would be holding me accountable and correcting me for my mistreatment towards her.  I'm not sure how people who mistreat others, like we have been mistreated, can go on living their lives the way they appear to. 

You're bang on about your ex's family and friends enabling her BIG time.  This is where the odds are stacked against you too.  I believe that my ex-girlfriend's sister-in-law and 3 closest girlfriends are different with not being enablers, but I am not certain.  My other discussion post on here entitled "From Darkness to Light", addresses this area of approaching these same 4 women in order to make them aware of her disorder in hopes of helping her.  What's your take on this, if your ex's family and friends were on this same page of not enabling her?  Would you see it as being worth the risk to approach?

Sure I would approach, but remember they MADE her. Not only that, her siblings are all cast from the same mold so they are seeing what she is doing, likely, as acceptable... .perhaps even logical! Or not, who knows. At the same time, God only knows what she is using to paint me black... .I'm a drug deal, bank robber, child molester... .I can only imagine. But she is likely saying what she need to in order to compel them to join her in their contempt for me. On an earlier recycle she was so embarrassed about what she told them last time that she plain didn't even respond to me when I asked her directly. Her son referred to me to a mutual friend as a 'psycho'. I had fun laughing about that but it gave me a hint about how she is painting me.

This is her fourth serious relationship. THIS time, her family and friends saw me in action and were elated that she found someone that THEY observed to be a good man on many fronts and compatible with her. I hope that they have the good sense to call her out on her pattern (1 time is a mulligan... .two times raises and eyebrow... .three times and you wonder aloud... .four times? They MUST realize that its her!).

[Restored2]

JRT, the more you share of your particular details of your ex the more it sounds like a no-win kind of situation for you on many fronts.  Mine has not shown herself to be anywhere near as extreme as yours or others have been.  I'm sure if you were dealing with my situation you would take the risk to approach her family and friends with a letter to make aware.  Any "normal" family and friends should be able to clearly see through the gaping cracks and holes that your ex is displaying.  :)enial tends to be the name of the game for many of these BPD people and their family/friends.  The problem seems to keep coming back to enablers enabling the BPD behaviour to continue on.

[JRT]

It sure seems like a no win... .I think that in my case, any hope for salvation for her is to let her own lifes forces do the natural thing... .I know thatt she is seeing a therapist so she knows that SOMETHING is wrong (she would insist that she needed to 'see someone' each and every time we recycled but it never happened) but I am thinking that her stated purpose to the T is to undo damage that I have done to her, . It will be a while before he even get to BPD if he is any good.

In your case, I recall a strong caution regarding approaching you BPD SO and point out your suspicions. I would imagine that this extends itself to family and friends as well... .it could backfire on you. Might be a good idea to start a thread on it and see if anyone else had any experiences that might guide you to a decision that is right for you and your situation.  It couldn't hurt... .

[Restored2]

JRT, I know where you are coming from on this.  It's a good sign that your ex is seeing a therapist.  Hopefully it's not all about you being "the problem" in the relationship though.  I don't have that much confidence in general with councillors/therapists/psychologists being able to tap in to diagnose someone as having BPD.  From what I understand most BPD people are undiagnosed and there is a reason for this.  I believe it's because they are not able to identify to themselves what they are struggling with, let alone inform someone else of their disorder in order to get the help that they so desperately need.  This is why I strongly believe that notifying close family/friends that could be supportive and encourage the BPD person to get help is important, when all other avenues have failed.  There is a chance that this could backfire on me and that is the risk to succeeding.  However, to passively wait and do nothing does not seem like a good alternative to obtain successful breakthrough results.  It actually can be seen as another form of enabling by being muzzled into silence.  Fear is no way to approach BPD.  There is something to be said about empowering oneself to be proactive in action rather than just allow a BPD person be in total control with their tornado affect damages to destroy peoples lives.  I did start a thread on it entitled "From Darkness To Light".  Check it out.     

[JRT]

I see your point... .I am also one to not take anything lying down and would risk the chance if I was confident it would work... .I wish you success with this... .let us know how it works out.

[Restored2]

Thanks so much, JRT.  You don't strike me as being a guy who would "take anything lying down".  Your situation is similar yet different than mine.  Any confidence that I have in this area is not all knowing, which is why it is a risk.  Her close family and friends should see my strength and quality of character in the letter addressed to them.  My hope and prayer is that they will hear me out, weigh it out, and respond according to how they are lead.

[JRT]

The overwhelming majority of the forum posts (along with our family and friends) advocate that they have done us some favor by their flight. Maybe. I mean, it IS a sickness and it is VERY difficult to deal with. But mine was absent of the constant quarreling that it seems is almost the very definition of the BPD relationship. Where I can see why they would want to as that is pure daily pain.

Mine was just not like that. I was VERY happy in mine and KNEW that this was the right one for me. Did you feel about yours that this was REALLY who I am meant to be with forever? Granted, she had some things that really needed to be addressed AND spontaneously sabotaging a relationship and then disappearing for months at a time can really damage a romance, .  But I see something inherently good and compatible in her... .that there IS a chance... .she is NOT that bad off that she could not function with me on a day to day, all was good even to her own free admission. That is what is making this so G-dammed difficult for me.

For a while there, I thought to go after her but it ended up backfiring. Now I have zero cards to play and a waning will to even hold out (even though I realize that it would be easier for me and one me to just go find someone else).

Is this your challenge as well? 

[Restored2]

JRT, although I know what the majority of the forum posts advocate about them doing us a favor by their flight, I have not embraced this for my particular situation.  Mine was absent of any "real quarreling" too.  We had some very minor disagreements/arguments, but nothing really much to speak of. 

From what you have shared, it does appear that you have zero cards to play.  This must be extremely frustrating to feel as though your hands are tied from being able to be proactive in some manner.

As for your question, yes, I continue to believe that mine is really who I am meant to be with forever.  I can relate to you, as I see something inherently good and completely compatible in mine, that keeps me from closing the door and walking away on her.  I have women flirting and showing interest in me all of the time, but I have no interest or desire to be with any other woman other than this one with BPD traits who has broken up with me.  This is not about the chase for me either.  Which speaks volumes to me about how much I value her and our relationship together.  I am normally an extremely logical guy, as you appear to be, so I grapple to make sense of the senselessness of it all.

Sometimes I wonder if I was/am somehow disillusioned, deluded, duped, or all 3.  This could be a topic title for another thread... .

[JRT]

Brother, I could have very easily write that post, I also relate. Don't know if you are a religious man (I tend to keep my faith to myself) but I am one of the last few that says something like 'I do' and means it and all the conditions that came with it (like in sickness and in health). Some people don't know a good thing if it comes and bites them on the nose... .but I do. I have been around the block a few times enough to know. I'll tell you; where when most people talk to God, its for a favor small or large. I changed that when we were together to thanking Him for her and my other blessings... .I REALLY felt that.

Its funny, after a few years of a rough patch in my life, things were really looking up. Not just an improvement, but radically. And things still are... .except this. If it never happned back in September, I would be the luckiest guy in the world right now.

Curious what you thin of me catching her stalking me on FB?

[Restored2]

JRT, I don't really consider myself "a religious man", despite being a born again Christian.  I'm not into the "religious thing" at all.  I have a real spiritual connection and relationship with God through Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.  I talk with God about everything.  Your changing from asking to thanking God for her and your other blessings is a good shift towards gratefulness, regardless of how it all plays out with her.  I encourage you to continue to hold on to the other blessings from God in your life that He has given you.  Imagine where you would be if you didn't have those breakthrough blessings on top of this devastating relationship twist... .

Marriage vows are very sacred and literal to me as well.  I agree with you, that some people wouldn't know a good thing if it bit them on the nose.

As for your question about you catching her following you on facebook.  I'm not a techie kind of guy, so I don't even know how it is possible to catch anyone following someone on facebook.  How does this work?  Either way, in my opinion for her to be following you on facebook would indicate to me a couple of possible positions.  One, she is still interested in you and your life with not wanting to totally detach from you.  Two, she is seeking evidence as fuel that you are "bad mouthing" her and your relationship or that you have simply replaced her with someone new.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[JRT]

You and I are pretty much on the same page as far as faith... .glad to hear.

I AM a techie. While there IS a way to monitor your FB visitors. mine was more of a ruse that i had concocted that worked and worked like a charm. Long story, but I caught her and I am 100% certain. Maybe she is waiting for me to intro a new GF or badmouth her but I have not said as much as a worked about it on FB nor said anything, ANYTHING about her after the b/u. Though, she knows that I put a profile up on the dating site we met on so the possibility that she is waiting for the other foot to drop is possible... .but why wouldn't she try to stop it if she cared? Or, if she were still interested, why in the world would she still be willing to call the cops on me if I attempted to contact her? I feel like I am trying to solve a crime here!

[Restored2]

That's very cool to hear that we are pretty much on the same faith page with God.

That's quite the unveiling you managed to catch your ex following you on facebook.  I should look into the process for monitoring my facebook visitors. 

To answer your questions, it's all speculation on our ends.  Nothing seems to make any sense with her or mine.  It's impossible to rationalize irrational behavour, so save yourself from riding the crazy train.  By the way, I preach to myself here, as much as I do to you or anyone else in this department.  From all that I have educated myself on with BPD people, they tend to cut off and chase away the very people that they actually want and need to have in their lives.  It's their fears of intimacy (closeness) with fear of being engulfed (losing themselves) in a relationship that can drive them to act out the opposite of what they truly want and desire.  Namely to be in intimacy (closeness) in a loving and secure relationship.  I know, it's a really confusing and messed up way of thinking.  I told mine just before she broke up with me that it felt like she was chasing me away with a stick.  Her reply was that she didn't mean to. 

It does feel like trying to solve a crime indeed.

[Restored2]

Hey JRT.  You mentioned earlier about there being a way to monitor one's facebook visitors.  I posed the question to facebook's Help Center.  Below is their response:

"Can I know who’s looking at my Timeline or how often it’s being viewed?  No. Facebook doesn't let you track who views your profile or your posts (ex: your photos). Third-party apps are also unable to do this.  If you come across an app that says it can show you who's viewing your profile or posts, please report the app."

Is there another way to do this?

[JRT]

Here you go:

www.geekscab.com/2014/01/how-to-track-facebook-profile-visitors.html

Doesn't do EVERYTHING you want and it is time consuming but it is effective.

I did one better and created a ruse to smoke mine out... .it very much worked and I was able to confirm 100%

[Restored2]

Thanks, JRT.  For some reason, I can't seem to make it work properly.  I enter the ID number and it returns back to my home page.  Any suggestions?

How did your "ruse" work?

[JRT]

Not sure what you are doing wrong... .remember it is for Chrome only.

The ruse worked like this:

She left some stuff here... .some of it is junk but she left a trunk full of family heirlooms, mementos that are priceless, in a large steamer trunk. I suspected her of stalking me for a long time and wanted to flush her out this way so I set my profile to Public a long time a go. I took a picture of the trunk and put it on face book with the caption, "My New Years resolution is to get rid of all of this junk in my basement... .I began to drag this trunk out to the curb until I realized that someone might want it. Claim it this weekend or I will have to send it to the landfill'.

It wasn't the next day (and I have a theory for that) but it was the very next, FIRST thing in the morning that one of her GF's IM'd me (let me know if you would like to see the transcript... .it would be interesting to see what you might be able to read between the lines). The thing that was all wrong about this was that this GF and my ex were never really on good terms... .she either searched for a day and found no one that would do her dirty work for her until she found this one as a dupe, or she got her to agree to allow her to logon to her account. Either way, the long pauses in between responses suggested more. WOW, it was like talking to a 4th grade girl; denying that they even wanted the stuff over and over until they finally admitted that they did't but strongly felt that it was over the top for me to insist that my ex make the request herself. They even denied that my ex was stalking my page!

Either way, thats the way that I did it. Ya now; her shame must be so great, that she she never even bothered to contact me to claim her stuff. As far as she nows, I folowed up on my promise and tossed it. Her rage and aversion is THAT strong. Incredible... .

[Restored2]

Thanks, JRT.  I went through firefox, so maybe that is the problem.

Sounds like an interesting "ruse" you put together, indeed!  I'm open to see the transcript.

[JRT]

I found the denials interesting and and her insisting that I didn't care... .wonder how to interpret that... .I also found it interesting that she pretty much ended the IM exchange right after I  told her that I didn't want my ex back and her last statement was statement was ridiculously childish... .I am certain that my ex was either on the other end, or on the telephone with her taking dictation.

GF When would be a good time to pick up c's trunk

JRT Did c ask you to do this?


GF Nope

But it is hers and i wld like to get for.her

JT-How do you know about it?

GF Not tying to get into a lengthy conversation.is it spoken for or can i grab it

JRT C is a big girl... .what she did was terrible to D and I and caused us a lot of hurt . ... we deserve an explanation from her... .if she wants her trunk and its contents  she and she alone will make arrangements to pick it up

JRTSorry... .non negotiable

GF K

JRTIt will gone on Saturday. ... it is full of stuff that is highly sentimental and meaningful to her

I told myself that I would be an ___hole if I got rid of it

But her actions against me give me very little choice

GF  Well u are and she doesn't want it

JT How so? I never hurt her

JT All that I want is an explanation. ... is that being an ass?

JT I liked you and all of c's friends. ... I know she has painted me black to all of you guys but I was very good to her... .this has left us confused and hurt

JT Anyway ... .I hope things are going well with you... .I know we didn't have much comings and goings but I miss you and all of c's friends

JT If she is to change her mind on the trunk, she will need to do it no later than Saturday as that is when it is being clamied

GF She will not. So give it away

JT Remember. ... all that is needed to retrieve it is an explanation

GF Again. Give it away

JT Do you know what is inside?

JT This is an easy thing to do

GFShe knows

JT Then why is she being so stubborn?

JT What is she doing visiting my facebook page as much as she does?

JT a phone call solves this problem

GFShe doesnt... .trust me.

JT Then why did you reach out to me to begin with?

JT why did she bring it to your attention?

JT Why did she even bother to save this stuff if she is willing for me to throw it out?

JT I WANT her to have this... .

GF Its ovr... .give away the trunk move on.

JT Ok

JT I HAVE moved on... .but we still are owed an explanation

JT She needs to move on... .I know how often she checks on me

JT  can we just be serious?

GFUh ya... .lets be serious.  She does not nor.will ever. Check your fb and or anything else.

JT Ok

JT Here is my offer... .I am happy to make available all of her property including the trunk upon condition that she herself makes arrangements to pick it up and provide me with an explanation but why she disappeared from our relationship the way that she did

JT Otherwise all of her property gets thrown away or disposed of per the advice of her attorney

JT I am being more than reasonable here

GF THROW IT AWAY. IF SHE CARED FOR THOSE THINGS. WOULD SHE HAVE LEFT THEM? KNOWING SHE WASN'T COMING BK FOR THEM EVER.  Let it go and move on,

JT She abandons a lot of things that are important ... .should be easy for her to not miss this stuff

JT I know I will feel badly about this forever but it will all be given away on Saturday

JT please don't tell me to let it go... .I have. ... I don't want her back... .

GF Omg... .thats bulls**t. If u really cared that it was so important to her there wldnt be conditions. Drop it

JT If she really cared then she would have given us an explanation for her actions... .hell, she would have told me that something was bothering her in the first place! Now I'M the bad guy?

JT I cared immensely and you guys,all saw it... .I'm not sure what she is telling you guys about me but I am sure that it would bum me out to know... .

GF Yes she wants her things but shouldnt have to see or speak to u to get them...

JT I f her family and friends cared as much as I did, you would start asking her hard questions

JT Why not?

JT Her lawyer GAVE them to me... .he instructed me to throw them out... .because I care, I kept them

JT Think about this:... .it's an honest offer... .I don't mean her any harm at all... .part of my heart still has feelings for her.  I know all about what drove this and I hope that she is sorting it out.  I am SO glad that you guys are there to support her and give her strength... ... .but I have to do what I have to do as well... .hurry; after this weekend she (and evey one that is at all associated  with her including you) will be legally prohibited from contacting me

JTBest wishes to you

JT One additional offer: if C would like to do this, say, in the presence of an intermediary (a therapist if she happens to be seeing one), I am ok with that. Just let me know

[Restored2]

Thank you for sharing, JRT.  This is quite the dramatic IM.  There is much to read between the lines and it does appear that your ex was on the other end in some capacity.

Her insisting that you didn't care sounds like a prodding to get you to reveal your heart.

I'm curious why you would say some of the things that you said to chase your ex-fiance away, with comments like:

"... .please don't tell me to let it go... .I have. ... I don't want her back... ."

"... .but I have to do what I have to do as well... .hurry; after this weekend she (and evey one that is at all associated  with her including you) will be legally prohibited from contacting me."

[JRT]

to be honest, it was me being angry... .It was me saying "you don't have power over me'... .pulling myself away... .I didn't have the benefit of deliberating on the dialog... .it was probably not best representative of my thoughts or not necessarily the best thing to say but will clearly need to live with these remarks... .oh, I also considered threatening her with a ppo against her and her son for cyberstalking and a threat that he had made to me on a chance meeting at the local mall. I was just about to have a lawyer send a letter but decided to not even bother.

Overall, I hope that I represented myself as being rational, and reasonable. I didn't want to lash out or demonstrate any disrespect but wanted to be firm.

I thought about the 'you don't care' remark as well and found it to be very surprising. She did a disappearing act on me without warning and blocked all contact after moving in just three weeks prior. She blocked every conceivable form of contact with me and even called the cops on me when I tried to call from an unblocked line on xmas eve!  When we were together, I was very conspicuous in demonstrating my care and devotion to her to the extent that I wondered if it was too obvious. Its odd that she would say that but maybe thats part of how she is painting me black... .

I went above and beyond during our relationship (not complaining at all, I was glad to do so) and did everything imaginable to circle back after the relationship to overcome her blocking (to the extent that I risked legal impact)... .in light of my efforts, I thought that stuck out like a sore thumb

[Restored2]

I totally understand, JRT.  I don't blame you at all.  These relationship fall outs can be intensely volatile and stir up a flood of emotions that can be extremely difficult to manage.  It is a helpless feeling of being powerless, with a desire to gain some power in return.  Not having the benefit of deliberating on the dialog with it being instant messaging (IM) is not an easy way to discuss either.  Email would have been a better route.

As I think you know, mine did the same abrupt blocking out game that yours did to you.  For me this is extremely confusing and hurtful, as I did absolutely nothing to warrant such cold and harsh mistreatment from her.  I treated her like a princess.

There is no sense in the senselessness of it all.

[JRT]

I too, treated mine as a princess... .I am sorry that you have to go through this... .how long have you been b/u now? How long in nc?

Your observation has been haunting me today as I wonder if she is of the opinion that I really do not care... .blows my mine that she would think so even on a bad day... .I wonder if this came from her or was an errant comment from her friend.

[Restored2]

Thank you for your sensitivity, JRT.  

She broke up with me on August 20th, 2014, so it has been just over 5 months now of torment.  I broke NC 6 weeks after she broke up with me, which would be about 3.5 months ago around the beginning of October, 2014.  

When I broke NC, I called her from a public phone as she blocked out my phone.  She immediately answered her cell phone.  I pleasantly said hello and calmly asked her how she was doing.  She gave a standoffish reply of; "Fine".  I said; "I just want to talk".  She replied; "I don't want to talk.  I've got company over."  I saw this as an opportunity to possibly talk at a more convenient time later on, so I asked; "Could we talk later then?"  Her reply was again; "I don't want to talk".  I was concerned that she may abruptly end the call at any moment, so I quickly asked her; ":)id you receive any of my text messages and emails?"  She replied with an affirmative; "No".  I knew without needing to ask that this meant that I was officially blocked out from communications with her.  I then said; "You don't need to be so cold and harsh.  You don't need to hate me."  She replied with a sincere affirmative; "I don't hate you."  Then she shifted to a cheery voice as if we were going to speak again in only 20 minutes; "Gotta go... .Talk to ya later... ."  I was speechless and hung up the phone with my heart in my hand.    

I also discretely dropped off to her home "doorstep" Christmas cards and chocolates as a present to her and her 5 children for this past Christmas.  I have not heard a peep from her at all.  I miss her and her 5 children greatly, as they included me into their lives and family.  We were all looking at being one BIG family with marriage in the future.  

For clarification, I didn't see you as saying anything about you not caring for your ex. However, you did make it very clear for her to keep away from you, giving the message of you not ever wanting her to come back again.  Is this what you really wanted to convey?

[JRT]

Sorry to hear about this... .i just read an outstanding thread here that would explain a lot about her behavior... .let me know and I can search it out... .it essentially establishes that the more forcefully that they block you, the more that you meant to them and other revelations.

As for what I said, that is what I had meant to say at the time. I wish that I was an expert at what to say to a BPD sometimes... .sigh

[Restored2]

JRT:  Thank you for your sensitivity and for letting me know about the "outstanding thread here that would explain a lot about her behavior... .it essentially established that the more forcefully that they block you, the more that you meant to them and other revelations".  I think the thread that you are referring to was started by "jammo1989" entitled One BPD's Perspective On Relationships and Breakups (Part 2).  I have been in the mix of those communication posts and it is a very enlightening thread indeed.  "jammo1989" has given me much hope and encouragement through what he posted.  Is this the same thread that you are referring to?

I hear ya on wishing to be an expert communicator when dealing with a BPD person.  We may all be professional BPD communicators as our learning/experience advances.  Something tells me that it is a never ending learning curve though... .

[JRT]

Yes... .thats the one... .it was very enlightening to me.

[Restored2]

I thought so, JRT.  It has been quite enlightening to me too.  There are some great posts by people here on bpdfamily.

[BlackHoleSun]

Thank you for your sensitivity, JRT.  

She broke up with me on August 20th, 2014, so it has been just over 5 months now of torment.  I broke NC 6 weeks after she broke up with me, which would be about 3.5 months ago around the beginning of October, 2014.  

When I broke NC, I called her from a public phone as she blocked out my phone.  She immediately answered her cell phone.  I pleasantly said hello and calmly asked her how she was doing.  She gave a standoffish reply of; "Fine".  I said; "I just want to talk".  She replied; "I don't want to talk.  I've got company over."  I saw this as an opportunity to possibly talk at a more convenient time later on, so I asked; "Could we talk later then?"  Her reply was again; "I don't want to talk".  I was concerned that she may abruptly end the call at any moment, so I quickly asked her; ":)id you receive any of my text messages and emails?"  She replied with an affirmative; "No".  I knew without needing to ask that this meant that I was officially blocked out from communications with her.  I then said; "You don't need to be so cold and harsh.  You don't need to hate me."  She replied with a sincere affirmative; "I don't hate you."  Then she shifted to a cheery voice as if we were going to speak again in only 20 minutes; "Gotta go... .Talk to ya later... ."  I was speechless and hung up the phone with my heart in my hand.    

I also discretely dropped off to her home "doorstep" Christmas cards and chocolates as a present to her and her 5 children for this past Christmas.  I have not heard a peep from her at all.  I miss her and her 5 children greatly, as they included me into their lives and family.  We were all looking at being one BIG family with marriage in the future.  

For clarification, I didn't see you as saying anything about you not caring for your ex. However, you did make it very clear for her to keep away from you, giving the message of you not ever wanting her to come back again.  Is this what you really wanted to convey?

No offence meant but, in my experience, what you describe above is everything that will turn someone with BPD off you once you've split up.

If THEY break up with YOU... .ignore them. Don't plead, don't beg. Let them come to you. If they don't, its over. Its that simple. The number 1 reason they leave and stay away is because you have been replaced with someone else that meets their NEEDS better.

If they've blocked you then, they've blocked you for a reason - they don't want to talk to you. Don't treat the person any differently just because they have a PD. That's a big mistake that people can make, which can lead to all sorts of trouble. For example - she/he possibly has BPD, so i'll keep reaching out and telling them i'm not leaving them, even when the person with possible BPD is making it clear they're just not interested anymore and genuinely want to be left alone!

One way of looking at BPD is that it is all based around NEED. If they NEED you, they'll come back to you, if they don't... .they won't! Chasing them tells them that you're a pushover, that you're weak and its likely to just irritate and annoy them. If you're painted black it'll also make things 10x worse. From what you say above though, i'd say you're def not painted black. She would be raging at you and telling you that she hates every fiber of your being! However, being painted black shows that they are still invested in you, they still having feelings for you. What you describe above sounds like indifference. BPDs can lose all feelings for the person they once had strong feelings for overnight.

People with Cluster B disorders can be highly attuned to your body language, facial expressions, tone of voice etc too. This means they can read you like a book. If they sense you're frightened of losing them, sense desperation in your voice, then they'll realise they've got you and at this point may even take pleasure in toying with you and messing with YOUR emotions to make themselves feel better, especially if they are co-morbid with another Cluster B disorder. Telling you that she'll phone later then not phoning seems like a classic mind game. She wants you to be waiting, wants you to be wondering why she didn't phone. Sounds like she knows she's got you trapped and likes having the control over you. 

[JRT]

BHS

But doesn't SOME sort of contact reinforce that the non did not abandon them? 

Ok... .point taken on push/pull... .so if there IS a strategy to getting them to return, besides NC, what would that be?

[BlackHoleSun]

BHS

But doesn't SOME sort of contact reinforce that the non did not abandon them? 

Ok... .point taken on push/pull... .so if there IS a strategy to getting them to return, besides NC, what would that be?

To your first question... .

The best advice i can give is to stop focusing on the person with BPD and the disorder itself and focus on your own actions. BE TRUE TO YOURSELF! If you would try contacting someone after a healthy, "normal" relationship breaks up then, go ahead and do it. That way you will have no regrets. There will be no - what if i had done this? What if i had tried that? This tends to happen a lot in these kind of relationships, you start to lose yourself and question yourself and search for answers and solutions that you're just never going to find.

In terms of abandonment... .

In my experience of BPD, the sufferer will test you early on, then they will push you and when they finally realise you're not going to leave them and they've decided 100% they don't NEED you in some way then, they will leave you. At this point it doesn't matter what you do, they are not coming back... .unless they decide they NEED you again. Note this difference - they don't actually WANT you, they NEED you.

So, in terms of your last question... .

That's actually very easy to answer. Sadly though, the answer is something that most Nons really don't want to hear and so tend to ignore. They will try to come back if they NEED you in some way. If they don't, they won't. Its that simple. Its all about them.

[Restored2]

BlackHoleSun: No offense taken.  Thanks for your input. 

It seems like whatever one does with a BPD person is a, damned if you do, damned if you don't, kind of scenario.  If there is anything I am continuing to learn about this disorder, it is that there is not a one size that fits all mold for anyone.

I think there needs to be a balance of backing off to give someone space, yet letting them know that you are not indifferent to them leaving you.  That you value them enough to pursue them on some level.  If mine was outright offended by my goodwill gestures, she could let me know via a letter telling me to stop, with returning the Christmas cards and chocolates to my doorstep as a message.  They are not helpless little creatures in their response to defend themselves.   

As for them blocking you, sometimes the reasons for them blocking you are not as straight forward as one might perceive on the surface.  Blocking can be seen as another form of self-sabotage through their over reactive behavior.  Mine had pushed me away before and told me that she was glad that I had initiated contact back with her.  I asked her why then she wouldn't have contacted me.  Her response was that despite her really wanting to, there was something that held her back from contacting me and she simply could not explain it.  She also told me that she wanted to be pursued.

Mine was very high functioning on the waif level.  She never raged at me ever.  I don't believe rage is the defining response to being painted black.  Abrupt push backs that are cold and harsh can be another expression of them painting one black too.  It can be seen as another way to push away their own feelings from being attached to someone when they still have strong feelings for them.  There are variations in all of this. 

For clarification, she never said that she would call me later.  What she said was; "Gotta go... .Talk to ya later... ."  It was a leaving the door open kind of response.  Either way, it is a control issue.

Everyone needs to do what they feel is appropriate in their particular situation to not have regrets of the "what if's" down the road.  Hopefully, we can all walk out our journey's in wisdom with no regrets.

[JRT]

restored, it seems that you and I have similar stories... .my ex didn't rage either and, like you, after the last recycles she had indicated that her expectation was that I come back and get her, that I chase her... .she has blocked me but subverting her blocked phone earned me a call from the local cops (talk about dammed if you do and dammed if you don't!)... .meanwhile, she is stalking my FB page and had unblocked me on her phone at one point... .i also know that there was no replacement any of the previous times and in between relationships, she tends to steer clear of men... .I almost have the sense that what this is really about is that she needed to just get away to straighten matters out in her head (though it obviously came out a different way).

How long since your b/u? What do you intend to do about this (sorry if there is any redundancy).

[Restored2]

JRT: I think you're right, in that we have similar stories.  The double speech from them is all very confusing. 

Mine told me that she steered clear of men like the plague after her marriage was over and just prior to me.  I knew her well before she ever got married, so I was a safe haven of sorts.  I fully believe that she has gone back to steering clear of men since she broke up with me too.  I can see how mine would have run away "to straighten matters out in her head", as you referred to for yours.

To answer your questions.  She broke up with me on August 20th, 2014, which has been just over a grueling 5 months now.  I am preparing to send a letter to her sister-in-law and 3 closest girlfriends that she is in an accountable position with.  Otherwise, none of them will know the truth to help set her free.  The letter is not a smear campaign or a presentation to make me look better.  It will outline how our relationship played out with her behavioral traits and abrupt cold breakup from me.  Basically, a play-by-play in order to make them all aware that there is something off balance requiring support and help for her.  There is no identifying the issue as being BPD either, as that could really backfire on me.  I believe that if I do nothing for her to get help through loved ones, it will only further enable the disorder through "the secret oath" that so many seem to want to subscribe to with their own BPD people.   

[JRT]

Sounds similar for sure... .its been 4 months almost to the day for me... .

I know that you have to go with your gut and do what you need to do for yourself... .can I ask you to consider a possibility? I was tempted to discuss this with relative as well... .in fact I spoke to her dad who knows that SOMETHING Is up -he was not happy with her behavior- but chalked it up to some kind of a quirk of hers; stubbornness was one term he referred to. (I felt it ironic to be talking about this to the guy that caused it!). I suspect that if I brought up mental health, and something as deeply problematic as BPD, I wonder if the gambit might backfire. As I read 'eggshells', they also made mention that this is probably not a good idea. I'm not condemning what you would like to do... .just consider this possible outcome and weigh it against your goals.

How long have you been nc? Or do you have contact? Did she leave you?

[Restored2]

JRT: Thank you for challenging me to consider a possibility.

It is more than ironic for you to be talking about this to her father that caused it.

There is no identifying the issue as being mental health, BPD or any other "label", as that could really backfire on me.  "It will outline how our relationship played out with her behavioral traits and abrupt cold breakup from me."  I'm curious, what angle did "Eggshells" present for it to be "probably not a good idea"?

I have considered the outcomes and weighed it against my goals of helping her and the hope for our relationship reconciliation/restoration.  The 4 women that I am sending the letter to appear to be stable ground for me to step forwards with.  I am not certain how any of them will respond, as this would require being all knowing.  Having said that, it is a gamble and like any gamble one needs to be cautious yet confident in believing the positives to outweigh the negatives.

To answer your questions.  I broke NC with her about 3.5 months ago.  We have not had contact since.  She left me.   

[JRT]

The book really took an approach that was not necessarily BPD: when you make any accusation, any charge of any kind, the person to whom you are directing that charge is likely to take at least some offense even if it is not true. I think that goes for her family as well; after all, they ARE family and you can betcha that that where yours has problems, so do her siblings. I had exchanged a couple of emails with her older sister (who calls her a 'runner' and it didn't provide any kind of a positive outcome. Probably made it worse as a matter of fact.

But I know what you are trying to do - I did a variation on this as I mentioned. But the fact of the matter is that this is a push/pull disorder. ANY pushing that you do will likely result in oblique motion; the exact opposite of what you want and you can not retract this if it does that. As tough as it is, and as much as you don't want to do it, NC is the only thing that will likely serve your purpose (I am a guy whose profession is to MAKE THINGS HAPPEN, this fits me like a saddle on a pig!).

Why not start a thread on this or even two before you let the letter fly and see what others think prior to doing it?

[Restored2]

JRT:  For these very reasons I am avoiding making any accusations/any charge of any kind.  It is a presentation of the facts that were played out by her.  My desire is for the other parties to hear me out, weight it out, and respond according to how they are lead.  The ball is then in their court.  What they do with it is up to them.  At least I will have done my part. 

For clarification, they are not blood related family.  One is her sister-in-law and the other 3 women are her close girlfriends whom she is in an accountability group with.  She needs to be held accountable for the way that she has mistreated me.

I sent mine some heartfelt letters shortly after she brokeup with me.  In the letters, I apologized for my errors in the relationship, explained my position, and shared what I observed of her behavioral traits.  Despite not hearing anything back on them, I have no regrets.  If anything, I would regret not having sent her the letters at all.  It was a "purging of my soul" and a clearing of my conscience to highlight that which I felt needed to be expressed.  I believe that the same will apply to this letter addressed to these 4 women as well. 

I have already put this topic out on another thread.  From what I have found, non BPD people seem to operate more from a passive position of paralyzing fear to do absolutely nothing.  Personally, I have not seen successful results from anyone doing this passive approach.  No touchdown/goal is ever attained from a defensive position, only an offensive position wins the game.

[JRT]

I agree with you there: maybe for better and maybe for worse; many non's seem to be perfectly willing to simply accept fate and let things simply go.

Good luck with this... .let me know how it goes.

[Restored2]

JRT: Relationships and life are a risk period.  There is no guarantees.  Many non's seem to operate not from any position that could empower them or their relationship for reconciliation/restoration.  We allow our BPD people to mistreat us in various ways and then we fear to act in any kind of a proactive manner that could bring about positive results.  It doesn't really make sense.

[JRT]

It seems that way a bit... .but considering my case for example, I am backed into a corner. I AM compelled to contact her and make an attempt... .but at the same time, the last time I did this, I was rewarded by a call from the cops. I am fresh out of cards to play except for nc.

Yesterday was my 4 month b/e anniversary.

[Restored2]

JRT:  The breakup anniversaries are not a time of celebration for guys like us.  I can appreciate your situation being different than mine with your hands being more or less tied from doing anything else.  Sounds like if you were in my shoes that you would do what I am doing though.  Is this correct?

[JRT]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that most people here think that you and I have a different kind of crazy. I would do anything for a friend or loved one including suffering through privations. My ex KNOWS this and called it to attention more than once. I tell you: everything that is good in my life has come through hard work, sacrifice, embrace of risk and - often - having to fight for it. This situation is no different but if I do not exhaust every possibility, the worst kind of hell for someone like me is to sped the rest of my days wondering... .

[Restored2]

JRT:  LOL... .Way too funny!  I think you're likely right about you and I being seen as another flavour of crazy here.  From what I have read our relationship scenarios are more similar than others, involving women that are high functioning on a waif level with overall low/no drama and no rages.  I thought you would if you were in my shoes.  Life has not been easy street for me either.  Risk and fight have been bookends along my journey forwards.  I can totally relate to what you said about the hell of spending the rest of your days wondering.  I do not want to live with any regrets, which is why I am trying to be proactive in dealing with my situation.  

[JRT]

Finally... .I have had some people raise their eyebrows to me here (on another forum, not related to mental health, I had people ready to have me arrested!) ... .I think that part of the disconnect is that mine just wasn't the raging lunatic that some of these women seem to be: they sound like evil incarnate sometimes... .did mine do something bad? YES - REALLY bad. It will be up to me to judge this if she ever comes back as excusable or not.

[Restored2]

JRT: What the heck did you do to have people ready to have you arrested?  Despite what mine is continuing to put me through, I don't consider mine to be evil incarnate at all.  She overreacted out of fears/phobias and made some wrong choices as a result.  You still sound open to take yours back, which speaks volumes.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread (or continue the conversation here: BPD "Label" Confusions).