Needs, wants, & values

[vortex of confusion]

In another thread started by Grey Kitty, the topic of needs, wants, and values came up. The thread is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240815.0;all

At some point in the conversation Form Flier said:

For purposes of our discussion here... .are we on good footing to call these issues "needs"... .or "wants"... .or "values"

I like to keep "need" as a word that gets used for true "life issues"... .food, air, water... .

The topic got closed before there was any discussion about the differences between needs, wants, and values. I am in a bit of limbo with my relationship with my husband. Based on how things are now, my ultimate goal is to leave. However, while I am here, I want things to be as peaceful as possible. I think distinguishing between a want, a need, and a value might help me to better determine what I should compromise over and what I should enforce a boundary over.

I am not really sure what to think but would like to get more thoughts and discussion going around this topic.

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[MaroonLiquid]

Here's my take... .

Want... .80" 4K UHD TV

Need... .Food for sustenance

Value... .Will not date/be married to someone who doesn't have a strong spiritual Christian foundation.

A value is something you will not compromise.  Now, we are here because we either did or didn't know what our values were to begin with. 

[vortex of confusion]

Here's my take... .

Want... .80" 4K UHD TV

Need... .Food for sustenance

Value... .Will not date/be married to someone who doesn't have a strong spiritual Christian foundation.

A value is something you will not compromise.  Now, we are here because we either did or didn't know what our values were to begin with. 

Thanks MaroonLiquid!

It all sounds so simple when you write it out like that.

I used to know what my values were and I thought I was pretty clear on them. But, after being with my husband for 18 years, my values and my desires/wants seem to have gone by the wayside and I am trying to get back to that place where my values are clearly defined and I can live them without wondering, "Am I crazy for valuing this?"

[yeeter]

This seems a worthwhile topic (imo), and was a big part of the work I did on myself.

To me, a 'need' is more than purely physical sustaining of life.  (like food/water).  First, I make the assumption that I 'want' to live a healthy life (simply sustaining life is inadequate).  And you can say this is a want, but if you are willing to place this as only a want you may as well go to jail, where you will get physical needs filled but by no means is that enough (again, just my opinion).

So to live a healthy life, this includes physical but also emotional health.

So now we get into it.  What do you 'need' to sustain your physical and emotional well being?  Most agree that physical abuse is a show stopper.  And on this board at least, we dont advocate putting up with emotional abuse.  So it becomes some boundaries about what constitutes emotional abuse - at a lower threshold.  Those are minimums.

Then on top of this we can layer the goal of not only 'surviving', but 'thriving'  (I know seems a lofty goal, given the state that many are in when they first land here).  But why not thriving?  (at least as a goal, no matter how far away it seems at the moment)

What does it take for you to thrive as an individual?  Here is where a lot of the work and self reflection is to be done.  And where you can challenge yourself from your traditional thinking and 'values' even.  (to me, values are only a means to an end, and tend to migrate over time and environment - surprisingly, there are some things I once valued highly that are no longer as critical a priority to me).  Yes values are foundational to determining what you need, but to me at least they are not so rigidly deterministic that they cant be challenged.  If its something that you absolutely HAVE to have, by definition its a 'need' (to you, in the context of a relationship).  Its worth understanding the underlying reasons why that item is a must have (ask yourself why 5 times in a row after each answer, which is a trick to trying to understanding root cause).  Often it gets us back to FOO.

An example:  As a human, I need to be able to interact with other humans.  So, as the relationship keeps me isolated and away from other human interactions, its not healthy.  How can I get these interactions while still being in the relationship?  (friends, family, hobby groups, work groups, et al).  I had to make these things a higher priority than whatever relational crisis of the day (because there is always something, and if you let yourself suck into the black hole it is infinite).  There is where boundaries come into play.  Taking action.  And taking care of myself, by knowing myself and knowing what I need to maintain emotional health (which is hugely necessary to survive the relationship).  So one of my actions was to increase interaction level with other humans.  A number of positive things by doing that.

Your partner might fight it at first.  But its a need.  Meaning, not negotiable.  And as a 'need' is a higher priority than the relationship (in the limit, the trick in real life is maintaining the balance, its often made into an all or nothing choice by our partners when in reality its often about balance).  Thats where detachment helps.  Your partner upset about you interacting with other humans?  Ok.  You can validate, and empathize even, but its not really a choice because its a need.  So you go do it anyway, and they can be upset if they want to.

Just an example, there are many others.

[Crumbling]

this is a great topic, thanks VoC!

Ditto to what Yeeter said. 

I've done this!  I just decided I couldn't do something that used to be acceptable for me to do, any more.  I set the boundary, and that was what told him - I need this.  You have needs.  They get met.  I have needs, they deserve to be respected to.   The way I am meeting them is with this boundary.

It's working, he does respect it, but it's like Yeet said, initially he rebels, or goes out of whack or something when I enforce it.  I have to stay calm, and grounded, and let him work thru all his sh!t, and after being boombarded with a whole bunch of hate, be strong enough to enforce it again, because he continually challenges the boundary.  its hard... over and over.  But so worth it, when things do actually work out in a good way.

But back on topic -

I define a need as something that I feel I HAVE to have, for my own well being - physically, emotionally or mentally - equally.  And it's a different feeling than wanting something. 

Sometimes I only realize a need isn't being met, until after I fall, emotionally.  This is why I need to remember to stay focused on me.

Blessings, c.

[vortex of confusion]

I define a need as something that I feel I HAVE to have, for my own well being - physically, emotionally or mentally - equally.  And it's a different feeling than wanting something. 

Hmmm. . .

I am trying to figure out what I feel that I HAVE to have (other than air, water, food, sleep). I have always considered myself a very low maintenance person that doesn't have a lot of needs. Other than the most basic of things, I can talk myself out of needing pretty much anything and that is part of the problem.

[MissyM]

I am trying to figure out what I feel that I HAVE to have (other than air, water, food, sleep). I have always considered myself a very low maintenance person that doesn't have a lot of needs.

Yes, that is a part of the problem.  Being willing to sacrifice myself has gotten me into all kinds of problems. 

For me it is down to non-negotiables based upon my values.  I think we are all saying the same thing with different words.  I don't think the semantics matter that much.  It does matter for each of us to understand our own needs/wants/values.  We can't work on having/getting these things met if we don't even know what ours are.

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, that is a part of the problem.  Being willing to sacrifice myself has gotten me into all kinds of problems. 

For me it is down to non-negotiables based upon my values.  I think we are all saying the same thing with different words.  I don't think the semantics matter that much.  It does matter for each of us to understand our own needs/wants/values.  We can't work on having/getting these things met if we don't even know what ours are.

Very true! I think I know what my values are. I am still trying to decide which ones are non-negotiable and which ones have some wiggle room.

I feel like I am missing something because I feel like I know what I want and what my values are but I am in a situation where I am pretty sure that I am not going to get those things.

Right now, I am in a place where my number one value, priority, whatever you want to call it is to give my kids the best life possible. I don't know how to make that happen. I don't know if the best option would be to suck it up and commit myself to the relationship with my husband or if it would be to leave him. I know that I am not really clearly stating a value. Some things that I can articulate:

-I will not accept physical abuse.

-I will not accept verbal abuse. I am still trying to figure out what is verbal abuse and what is him being grumpy. I have been trying to nip some of his grumpiness in the bud by interrupting him and saying stuff like, "Yes, you have a really good point but nobody is going to listen to you when you talk like that." (I did that this morning when he started yelling at one of the kids to try to get a point across. His point was valid but the way he was saying was complete jerk.)

-Long term, I want consistency. I am not expecting perfection but I do need to be able to rely on something even if that something is that he isn't going to do something. Does that make any sense? I am tired of the uncertainty. I don't think I am articulating this very well as I am not certain how I can get this within the relationship.

-I want to be valued as a person. I am not sure what that looks like or what it might entail or even how to get it. And, I have the question: "Why is that necessary?" Valuing and loving myself should be enough. Is wanting to be valued by another person seeking something outside myself or is it okay to want/need/value? I am listing it as all three because I don't know where it might fall within the grand scheme of things.

I need to think on this some more. Any other thoughts, ideas, input?

[Notwendy]

I have a specific want, in fact, it could be a need. It's something I feel I need to give up expectations of, perhaps not hope entirely, but I also have a lot of doubt that it is obtainable.

We get along quite well on a level that is not deeply personal. Where things get difficult it at the deeply intimate level. We can talk about current events, a TV show, the kids (objectively) but something like asking him a personal question about anything he could be emotional about is likely to trigger him. If he doesn't rage, there's circular speech, kitchen sink talk, introducing other subjects to take the conversation off course. Eventually, I will get exhausted and emotional and that triggers a rage.

He doesn't ask for what he wants. That leaves me to guess. Being co-dependent, I did this quite well- guessing and anticipating his wants and needs. This also results in anger and rage when I somehow don't meet his expectations. The fact that our interpersonal communication is so poor makes us prone to his misinterpreting me. ( and vice versa no doubt).

One of my goals has been to not be so codependent. I wish for him to learn to ask for what he wants, but that is his task if he chooses. However, he won't if I keep jumping in to meet his needs.  One of my needs is clear communication. The other evening I told him I wanted to do something. He replied "I was thinking about seeing this new movie". That's all he said, no asking or discussing is further. He didn't say " would you rather come to the movies" or anything that would ask that. I jumped in and started "fixing" the problem- " could we go another night? " then I stopped. It is up to him to decide how to get us to the movies since that is his want, or at least express it. After I walked away, I had a strong urge to cancel my plans and tell him we were going to the movies. This is what I have done countless times and not even thought about it. This is me fixing his want to do something and giving up what I want to do. So, I made plans to do something with him when I got back and went, but it felt uncomfortable to not do what I usually would do.

On a deeper level though, I think we all want to be "seen" as we are, not what someone imagines we are, and our inability to do this is sad for me. I realize I can have close friendships with others, but there is something special about being "known" to your spouse. It is even the term used in the Bible " He "knew" her, and even if someone is not religious, the use of that term for a physical/emotional/spiritual bond is indicative that this bond is special. Perhaps part of "knowing" for me is to accept that this isn't a place I can go with him. I do get the "Men are from Mars, women from Venus" idea that my H is not inclined to be as talkative as I am, but even with this idea, we are inept at talking about personal things.

[yeeter]

Good questions for yourself.  My thoughts

-Long term, I want consistency. I am not expecting perfection but I do need to be able to rely on something even if that something is that he isn't going to do something. Does that make any sense? I am tired of the uncertainty. I don't think I am articulating this very well as I am not certain how I can get this within the relationship.

This disorder is, by definition, a yo yo ride.  Knowing this enables you to make your own consistency.  You arent going to get it from your partner.  But in a way you do, because the reality is that you arent going to predict a reaction.  'predictably' unpredictable.  So its within your own power to set things up such they arent dependent upon your partner behaving a certain way.  If one reaction, go with it.  If a different reaction, go with it.

-I want to be valued as a person. I am not sure what that looks like or what it might entail or even how to get it. And, I have the question: "Why is that necessary?" Valuing and loving myself should be enough. Is wanting to be valued by another person seeking something outside myself or is it okay to want/need/value? I am listing it as all three because I don't know where it might fall within the grand scheme of things.

Valuing yourself is number one.  Then build family/friends and other personal interactions that value you.  The question might be, why is it so important to me, to get my validation from this one particular individual?  You were single once, right?  I assume you valued yourself then, so I would challenge to what degree this is a 'need' vs something you can get in some other way.

As for giving the kids the best possible life:  This is the single and simple reason I choose to stay, work on skills, work on myself, and be there for my kids.  I genuinely believe they are better of with me in their lives on a daily basis, than in a bitter, contentious 'coparenting' situation with an individual that has a personality disorder (and in my case primary custody would go the the woman, its just the way the system is designed).

Is this the best for my own happiness?  Yes and no.   I decided what is best is whats best for my kids so yes.  But I had to give up on some of the concepts of what my relationship would be.  My model of what the family dynamics would be ideally.  The idea that kids learn relationships from what gets modeled at home (a hard one to swallow!).  A list of ideals had to be let go (and this is where the stages of grief was useful, knowing that I was grieving the loss of certain ideals and expectations).

Its working. I have regular discussions with my children about when mom gets 'upset'.  Im trying to transfer as many skills to them as I can on how to manage and handle it.  All the while not undermining or suggesting she doesnt love them.  Of course I have limited solutions myself, but being there in the moment definitely helps.

[Crumbling]

That's a good list, VoC.      You've got a good base to build on with this.

"I want to be valued as a person." - just an observation on this one... .I had to give up wanting this.  Although BPDh will say he loves me and 'couldn't live without me', I rarely feel that it is actually true.  If he truly valued me, he would consider my suggestions equal to his, hear me when I voice my feelings, and support my decisions.  He doesn't.  And it leaves me feeling disrespected, and in turn, undervalued as a partner in the r/s.  I just don't believe anymore that he has the capacity to bring this to the relationship.  It's hard to accept, but I'm trying.   

As for doing what is best for your kids... .I had the philosophy that what was best for me would be the best thing for them because a more grounded, healthy mom would be a better mom, and that was good for them.

The reality was different, tho.  The reality was that the burdens of being a single parent, and his response to the divorce, were just as, if not more, challenging than trying to reach a middle ground with  my ex and 'being a better mom' proved to be a harder challenge than I realized. 

And today, I often look back and wonder what they learned from my decision to leave... .that it's okay to walk away from someone you care for... .that compromise and muddling though issues isn't as important as doing what you want... .lots of doubt that the decision I made back then, that felt like it was the best one for all of us at the time, may not have been.  I can't hold regret, and I don't.  I know I wouldn't be the person I am today if I hadn't of left him.  But was it best for them?  Don't know, and I will never know.

Your situation is different than mine.  My ex was not BPD.  He was cold, logical and mechanical but not BPD.  What he wanted out of life was far different than what I wanted and it drove us further and further apart.  Then he cheated on me, and lied about it even after I waved the proof in his face. It was my boundary and it was breached and I made him leave.  He retaliated by cutting contact with the kids, thus hurting them far deeper than what I ever imaged the divorce would, because it never occurred to me that he would be THAT cold.  But he was.  Would I have left if I'd known that he would do this?  Don't know.

HIndsight is golden, right?  Just sharing what I've been through in hopes that it helps you look at your situation from all angles.

good intentions to you,

c.

[vortex of confusion]

This disorder is, by definition, a yo yo ride.  Knowing this enables you to make your own consistency.  You arent going to get it from your partner.  But in a way you do, because the reality is that you arent going to predict a reaction.  'predictably' unpredictable.  So its within your own power to set things up such they arent dependent upon your partner behaving a certain way.  If one reaction, go with it.  If a different reaction, go with it.

Very good point! I am trying to figure out how to make my own consistency. I feel like I am pretty consistent. I have looked for outside validation on this because of my own confusion on this. I wonder what this is going to look like.

Valuing yourself is number one.  Then build family/friends and other personal interactions that value you.  The question might be, why is it so important to me, to get my validation from this one particular individual?  You were single once, right?  I assume you valued yourself then, so I would challenge to what degree this is a 'need' vs something you can get in some other way.

Hmmmm. . .that is a good question. It has been a loong time since I was last single (18 years) so I am going to have to do some digging into my memory bank. Actually, I am trying to figure out what changed in me. I don't feel like that much has changed when looking at the bigger picture. As I think about it, I am wondering if the problem is not so much wanted to be valued as much as it is wanting to not be devalued. I am trying to clarify this line of thinking for myself so that I can have something a little more clear to work with. I think I am wanting validation from this one specific person (my husband) because that is what fits my vision of marriage. If a partner can't value you, or at least not devalue you, then why be in the relationship? I am stuck, maybe not stuck, but am at a place where I am trying to be more realistic. Before finding this site and learning about BPD, I had some kind of naive hope that I might figure out the right equation to getting my needs met. Now that I have this new information, I am having to change how I think about things and how I approach things.

As for giving the kids the best possible life:  This is the single and simple reason I choose to stay, work on skills, work on myself, and be there for my kids.  I genuinely believe they are better of with me in their lives on a daily basis, than in a bitter, contentious 'coparenting' situation with an individual that has a personality disorder (and in my case primary custody would go the the woman, its just the way the system is designed).

Right now, I agree that the kids are better off with both of us in their lives. I have a lot better chance of protecting the kids if we are all living together in the same house. Maybe I am kidding myself but I don't see my husband being contentious about coparenting. Parenting is one area where I think we pretty much agree. How it plays out in practice can be touchy but our theories seem to line up for the most part. My bigger fear is that he would forget about the kids (out of sight, out of mind) and the kids would feel even more rejected by him than they already do. In the grand scheme of things, I see what I am doing now as the better option. But, I am going to continue to work on untangling my own thoughts and feelings so that I don't end up bitter and resentful. I want to nip that in the bud right now and I think the way to do it is to clearly define, for myself, the needs, wants, values and be able to make actual choices rather than be in a situation where I feel like I am stuck or have no choices.

Is this the best for my own happiness?  Yes and no.   I decided what is best is whats best for my kids so yes.  But I had to give up on some of the concepts of what my relationship would be.  My model of what the family dynamics would be ideally.  The idea that kids learn relationships from what gets modeled at home (a hard one to swallow!).  A list of ideals had to be let go (and this is where the stages of grief was useful, knowing that I was grieving the loss of certain ideals and expectations).

I don't want to grieve prematurely.  I know, I am probably being a bit naive but I want all that I can realistically get. At this point, I am not sure what is realistic and what is a pipe dream on my part.

Its working. I have regular discussions with my children about when mom gets 'upset'.  Im trying to transfer as many skills to them as I can on how to manage and handle it.  All the while not undermining or suggesting she doesnt love them.  Of course I have limited solutions myself, but being there in the moment definitely helps.

I have lots of discussions with my older kids. It is sometimes hard though because I try to find ways to answer their questions without saying bad things about him or painting him as a bad person. Sometimes, it is soo hard. Yesterday, my oldest asked me why dad doesn't act more like a parent. She pointed out that I am able to keep it together but dad isn't. I tried to frame it as "dad doesn't have as much experience with kids as I do. I have been around kids and have taken care of kids most of my life."

Thank you for the hug!

[Notwendy]

Yeeter, I've made the same decision with regards to the kids. Sometimes divorce is not the best choice. I understand that on one choice, you teach kids that you walked away from something, and on the other hand, I demonstrated to my kids that I left a career and basically did not stand up for myself in my relationship. I don't think I could have won that one either way.

However, I did look at some families where there was divorce and realized that in some of them, the father remarried into a similar situation, still went off to work and do what he wanted, and left new wife with the child care. These new wives surely would not be invested in my kids, and if they had their own kids, would they still care for them? However, these dads would not be flexible with custody and visitation. Even if they were too busy to be with their kids, they were not about to let their exes have that time. Since most of the child care responsibility was mine, I was not willing to delegate that job to a stranger who would not love my children like I do.

In one case it eventually backfired. The father was so intent on punishing the mother that he would not allow his kids to even see friends or attend events like parties if the mother would be there at the times that he had custody. This resulted in his kids missing out on a lot of fun things that their friends were doing.  His kids grew up to resent him and see time with him as punitive.

[vortex of confusion]

"I want to be valued as a person." - just an observation on this one... .I had to give up wanting this.  Although BPDh will say he loves me and 'couldn't live without me', I rarely feel that it is actually true.  If he truly valued me, he would consider my suggestions equal to his, hear me when I voice my feelings, and support my decisions.  He doesn't.  And it leaves me feeling disrespected, and in turn, undervalued as a partner in the r/s.  I just don't believe anymore that he has the capacity to bring this to the relationship.  It's hard to accept, but I'm trying.   

I am going to have to sit with this. I am wondering if I can reframe it as something other than being "valued". I am trying to think of examples when I felt valued and examples of when I felt devalued and see if I can find ways to rephrase it in such a way that I can figure out whether or not it is something that I can use to set a boundary.

I am thinking of statements like (I am brainstorming a bit.):

-I feel valued when my husband gives me space to go out or do things on my own.

-I feel valued when I ask for something and my husband follows through.

-I feel devalued when I go out with my husband but he acts like being with me is so difficult.

-I feel devalued when I have something that I want to share with my husband but he changes the subject to be about him.

-I feel devalued when my husband over reacts to something small.

-I feel devalued when my husband sits up playing computer games and then complains about being tired. While he was playing his games, I was parenting and spending time with the kids.

-I feel devalued when I am expected to thank him and praise him for anything that he does yet the things that I do go unnoticed.

As for doing what is best for your kids... .I had the philosophy that what was best for me would be the best thing for them because a more grounded, healthy mom would be a better mom, and that was good for them.

I agree with that. Right now, I am trying to honestly assess what is going to help me be a more healthy, grounded mom. I can see lots of different options and possibilities.

The reality was different, tho.  The reality was that the burdens of being a single parent, and his response to the divorce, were just as, if not more, challenging than trying to reach a middle ground with  my ex and 'being a better mom' proved to be a harder challenge than I realized. 

Both of my sisters were single moms and I have seen them struggle. They were able to manage because they got a lot of help from me and my mom. The reality of my situation is that I don't have a mom or sisters to help me. The only help that I get with parenting is from my husband. Even though his contributions aren't as much as I would like them to be, they are still contributions. If he is here, I can run to the store without taking anybody with me. If he wasn't here, I would have to load up all of the kids and take them with me. So, there are some really practical considerations that I am trying to keep in mind.

HIndsight is golden, right?  Just sharing what I've been through in hopes that it helps you look at your situation from all angles.

Thank you so much for your input! It really helps me to get more input. I have been in this little box in my head for so long and am trying to think my way out of it in the best way possible.

[yeeter]

I am going to continue to work on untangling my own thoughts and feelings so that I don't end up bitter and resentful. I want to nip that in the bud right now and I think the way to do it is to clearly define, for myself, the needs, wants, values and be able to make actual choices rather than be in a situation where I feel like I am stuck or have no choices.

Very worthwhile.  And for me, this took a while to come to peace with myself on the decisions made.  You have to own it to prevent the resentment from creeping in.

There is a phrase on this site somewhere... .pain without choice = suffering.  pain with choice = ?.  I cant remember the details, but the point was that you can put up with a LOT if doing so by CHOICE.

Some days I repeat to myself 5 times over... .

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.

More hugs.  Because well, we all need as many of these as we can get.   

[vortex of confusion]

Very worthwhile.  And for me, this took a while to come to peace with myself on the decisions made.  You have to own it to prevent the resentment from creeping in.

I am trying to own it but haven't yet gotten to that place. I am of the mind that I am staying for now and when the kids are older I want to leave. I don't know if it is possible to truly own my decision if I have one foot in and one foot out.

There is a phrase on this site somewhere... .pain without choice = suffering.  pain with choice = ?.  I cant remember the details, but the point was that you can put up with a LOT if doing so by CHOICE.

Some days I repeat to myself 5 times over... .

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.

More hugs.  Because well, we all need as many of these as we can get.   

Thank you! I am going to have to remember that the next time that I want to run away screaming. LOL.

Here is a great big hug for you!   

[MissyM]

-I will not accept physical abuse.

Absolutely!

-I will not accept verbal abuse. I am still trying to figure out what is verbal abuse and what is him being grumpy. I have been trying to nip some of his grumpiness in the bud by interrupting him and saying stuff like, "Yes, you have a really good point but nobody is going to listen to you when you talk like that." (I did that this morning when he started yelling at one of the kids to try to get a point across. His point was valid but the way he was saying was complete jerk.)

I can identify with that.  Being able to say I value what you have to say but can't talk about it that way has been very empowering for me, as well.

-Long term, I want consistency. I am not expecting perfection but I do need to be able to rely on something even if that something is that he isn't going to do something. Does that make any sense? I am tired of the uncertainty. I don't think I am articulating this very well as I am not certain how I can get this within the relationship.

Well, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty because I cannot be 100% certain of anything someone else is gong to do.  I can be certain in myself and what I am going to do.  Consistency to me is something different.  95% on target with 5% off target behavior seems ok, as long as I am not talking about using anything in any way (especially other women or drugs).

-I want to be valued as a person. I am not sure what that looks like or what it might entail or even how to get it. And, I have the question: "Why is that necessary?" Valuing and loving myself should be enough. Is wanting to be valued by another person seeking something outside myself or is it okay to want/need/value? I am listing it as all three because I don't know where it might fall within the grand scheme of things.

I think I have had to value myself first.  In recovery my dBPDh is learning to value me and others, this is a big steps and real change.  That is where getting outside of himself has helped our relationship.  I feel more "seen" by my husband than ever before.  That for me is part of intimacy and my dBPDh had not been taught that in his home and is just now learning this.  So I believe it is possible with a BPD that is in recovery, otherwise it is something I had to focus on myself and getting this from others.

[Grey Kitty]

Wants are simply preferences: I want "X" means I prefer "X" over "Y" or over "not X"

If you don't get something you want, you just go on about your way.

Needs are stronger. Without them, you cannot thrive, or even survive. Yeeter did a good job of pointing out that there are needs besides physical ones.

They are what YOU need in YOUR life, and are fairly concrete things.

Values are your beliefs. They are somewhat more abstract, things like truth, kindness, peace, love, discipline, commitment, independence, cooperation, etc...

My belief is that values are nearly universal, and where people disagree and where life really gets interesting is when you have to choose between two (or more) different values when you pick your action.

[vortex of confusion]

Well, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty because I cannot be 100% certain of anything someone else is gong to do.  I can be certain in myself and what I am going to do.  Consistency to me is something different.  95% on target with 5% off target behavior seems ok, as long as I am not talking about using anything in any way (especially other women or drugs).

I think I would be content with less than that. I want him to be able to follow through with what he says that he is going to do. He is answering and posting ads online again. He says it is because he is lonely and wants somebody to talk to at work. I can understand that. I have asked him in the past why he couldn't join a forum or find other places that would be "safer". I think his intent is okay but I don't think he is taking steps to protect himself from potential slip ups. Several months ago, he said he wanted to focus on his recovery and didn't want to seek out other women, even to talk to, until he was more firm in his recovery. He has made it to step 8. I asked him if he had run this by his sponsor but he says that he probably isn't going to talk to his sponsor about it. I am wondering how things are going to play out if he is doing things that he won't share with his sponsor or therapist. To me, that is the kind of lack of  consistency that I am talking about.

I think I have had to value myself first.  In recovery my dBPDh is learning to value me and others, this is a big steps and real change.  That is where getting outside of himself has helped our relationship.  I feel more "seen" by my husband than ever before.  That for me is part of intimacy and my dBPDh had not been taught that in his home and is just now learning this.  So I believe it is possible with a BPD that is in recovery, otherwise it is something I had to focus on myself and getting this from others.

Thank you for this! I am trying to value myself. I think I have been feeling particularly down because I was off work for a month between semesters. I had my kids value me but I didn't have work at either of my jobs. I still don't feel like my husband is getting outside of himself much. I am trying not to worry about that too much but I do know that, given his current behavior, it isn't likely that he is going to change that much.

[MissyM]

Some days I repeat to myself 5 times over... .

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.

Yep, keeps me out of the victim mode.  I say something slightly different but it is the same effect. I choose to be in this marriage, I choose to love my husband and I choose to give as much grace as I am able, all of these are just for today.  Tomorrow I could change my mind.  

[MissyM]

He is answering and posting ads online again. He says it is because he is lonely and wants somebody to talk to at work. I can understand that. I have asked him in the past why he couldn't join a forum or find other places that would be "safer". I think his intent is okay but I don't think he is taking steps to protect himself from potential slip ups. Several months ago, he said he wanted to focus on his recovery and didn't want to seek out other women, even to talk to, until he was more firm in his recovery. He has made it to step 8. I asked him if he had run this by his sponsor but he says that he probably isn't going to talk to his sponsor about it. I am wondering how things are going to play out if he is doing things that he won't share with his sponsor or therapist. To me, that is the kind of lack of  consistency that I am talking about.

That is because he is in relapse.  Those things are a no go for a sex addict, not wanting to tell his sponsor and be honest about this behavior is waving red flag.    Please don't be in denial yourself, this is relapse.  As they say in my program, don't paint a red flag white.  Sorry, it is tough.  

[vortex of confusion]

That is because he is in relapse.  Those things are a no go for a sex addict, not wanting to tell his sponsor and be honest about this behavior is waving red flag.    Please don't be in denial yourself, this is relapse.  As they say in my program, don't paint a red flag white.  Sorry, it is tough.  

Thank you for validating me on this! That is what my gut says too but he says that it isn't because he is just emailing them and there is no talk about sex. And, he says that it isn't violating his sobriety because he is not doing it compulsively. He is very aware of what he is doing and there is no compulsion to it (or so he says).

And, he keeps bringing up my behavior and what I am doing and basically saying that if I can do what I am doing then he can do what he is doing. And, when I brought up telling his sponsor and therapist he said that he didn't want to tell them because they would probably say that my behavior (having a lover) is violating HIS sobriety and that they would tell him to make me stop. Hmmmmm. . .

[vortex of confusion]

not wanting to tell his sponsor and be honest about this behavior is waving red flag.

Wanted to update and say that I told him that he should talk to his sponsor about what he is doing. If his sponsor is okay with it, then I am okay with it. I don't want to be the one to hold him accountable for this kind of stuff. I have been doing that for way too long.

This does bring up something else that I value and that is helping others. For most of my life, I have been a bit of a caretaker. Even when I was really little, I could find stuff and figure stuff out. I enjoyed doing it and it never occurred to me that somebody else, especially a spouse, would take advantage of that. I value reciprocity. I wonder if it is possible for a pwBPD to truly reciprocate.

[Grey Kitty]

And, he keeps bringing up my behavior and what I am doing and basically saying that if I can do what I am doing then he can do what he is doing. And, when I brought up telling his sponsor and therapist he said that he didn't want to tell them because they would probably say that my behavior (having a lover) is violating HIS sobriety and that they would tell him to make me stop. Hmmmmm. . .

I would say to him ":)on't avoid telling them on my behalf. This sort of hypothetical statement you think your sponsor or therapist would give me isn't going to do anything. If they believe I should stop, I'll be happy to talk to them about it."

And this does bring me back to another version of a need. Albeit a darker one.

An addict NEEDS a fix.

I've realized that my wife NEEDS a lot of male attention for some reason of her own.

I would also note that needs can change over time. There are many recovered addicts who no longer have that need.

[vortex of confusion]

I would say to him ":)on't avoid telling them on my behalf. This sort of hypothetical statement you think your sponsor or therapist would give me isn't going to do anything. If they believe I should stop, I'll be happy to talk to them about it."

That is more or less what I said. He called his sponsor and his sponsor pretty much said that my behavior is my behavior.

And this does bring me back to another version of a need. Albeit a darker one.

An addict NEEDS a fix.

Very true on that! My husband pretty much said that he gets lonely at work because he can't call and message me any more. I set a boundary on that and now I feel like I am being punished for it. If I had kept him as a FB friend and continued to chat with him all day, then he wouldn't feel lonely at work and wouldn't need to post ads, etc. That isn't what he has said directly but that is how I feel. And, it confirms that I am just a fix. If I won't talk to him all day every day while he is at work, then he will find it elsewhere (I am not even touching the question of how he gets any work done.). That makes me feel that much more objectified. If I won't give him what he wants, then he will get it somewhere else rather than put more effort into his family.

[MissyM]

That makes me feel that much more objectified. If I won't give him what he wantss, then he will get it somewhere else.

This is the selfish thinking of an addict, it makes it all about what others are doing for him.  If he isn't getting what he wants he has a right to act out.  That isn't recovery, that is using you to maintain his "sobriety."  This is why I needed separation from my dBPDh.  He wasn't going to get recovery as long as he could blame me for his choices, even choices that weren't acting out.  The group he is in now doesn't allow that.  It is ok to say that he struggles but if he goes into victim mode, they call him out and hold him accountable.  He still slips in his thinking sometimes but it is 100x better than it used to be.

[vortex of confusion]

This is the selfish thinking of an addict, it makes it all about what others are doing for him.  If he isn't getting what he wants he has a right to act out.  That isn't recovery, that is using you to maintain his "sobriety."  This is why I needed separation from my dBPDh.  He wasn't going to get recovery as long as he could blame me for his choices, even choices that weren't acting out.  The group he is in now doesn't allow that.  It is ok to say that he struggles but if he goes into victim mode, they call him out and hold him accountable.  He still slips in his thinking sometimes but it is 100x better than it used to be.

We did have a good conversation about his ads and such. He talked to his sponsor and was asked a bunch of questions to get him to think. His sponsor wouldn't tell him what to do either but did try to get him to really think about what he is doing. It sounded like his sponsor was trying to hold him accountable without telling him what to do.

I was able to ask him to help me understand how this is going to rebuild trust between us. I tried to validate his feelings of loneliness and even empathized with him and told him that I have those feelings of loneliness too. I asked him how setting up a profile on a site that is more or less a dating site is going to help him stay sober and resist temptations. If his intent is to find somebody (purely platonic) to talk to via email and stave off some of the loneliness, then there are a lot of other options that are much healthier and are not as prone to temptation.

I tried to bring up options such as discussion forums that are centered around a particular topic. I said I wanted to understand how it was a good idea. I tried to take it out of the realm of control or jealousy and tried to pose it as, "Even if our marriage isn't going to work out, I am still your friend. If any of my friends were in your situation, I would question them and tell them that it probably isn't a good idea." And I reminded him that he has only been sober for a couple of months and asked him if he had thought about what he is going to do if he is tempted by these other females. And I told him that I want to see him succeed but I don't think that deliberately putting himself in a position where he is likely to be tempted is going to help him succeed. I asked lots of questions and tried to validate him but I did not once tell him what to do. I kept putting it back on him that it is HIS decision to make.

[waverider]

Awareness of choice converts resentment into frustration.

Frustration is recognition of issues>recognition leads to potential resolutions

Resentment is a relationship killer>resentment leads to hopelessness and giving up

[waverider]

When it comes to Needs , Wants and Values pwBPD have difficulty separating these. Prolonged exposure to someone who has blurred lines in this area causes us to question our differentiation of our own needs, wants and values...

Determining these is one of our foundation tasks. As these then go one to form our choices of boundaries.

Needs determine boundaries.

Wants determine goals

Values determine how we conduct ourselves.

[123Phoebe]

I would say to him ":)on't avoid telling them on my behalf. This sort of hypothetical statement you think your sponsor or therapist would give me isn't going to do anything. If they believe I should stop, I'll be happy to talk to them about it."

That is more or less what I said. He called his sponsor and his sponsor pretty much said that my behavior is my behavior.

I forget, do you have a sponsor of your own?

[vortex of confusion]

I forget, do you have a sponsor of your own?

No, I don't. If I had one, I would definitely be talking to them about this stuff. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

I forget, do you have a sponsor of your own?

No, I don't. If I had one, I would definitely be talking to them about this stuff. 

Do you  have any regular 12-step meetings you attend? That is where you are likely to find a sponsor!

There are a bunch of 12-step programs not focused primarily on the addiction, but on the supporting the addicted partner (Al-Anon, CoDA, Emotions Anonymous, I suspect one for spouses of sex addicts... .) My take is that the character of the meeting is a lot more important than the official sanctioned group it is in.

Consider expanding your search.

[vortex of confusion]

Do you  have any regular 12-step meetings you attend? That is where you are likely to find a sponsor!

I've been to a few COSA meetings. I should probably look around and see if I can find another group that might be more to my liking.

[MissyM]

I've been to a few COSA meetings. I should probably look around and see if I can find another group that might be more to my liking.

Took me a while to find one I liked, oddly several therapists now tell me that is  the healthiest group.  It is more focused on step work and not on victimization.  Very much about how we can affect our own lives.  Now I can go to any meeting and take what I need and leave the rest.

[braveSun]

An addict NEEDS a fix.

I've realized that my wife NEEDS a lot of male attention for some reason of her own.

I would also note that needs can change over time. There are many recovered addicts who no longer have that need.

An addict has a NEED that he/she needs to meet.

I find like Vortex that many times, my SO will only see that there is only one way to meet that need:

going outside the relationship for _____________________ .

I am seeing the B&W thinking in action there.

I have found myself repeating many times 'Yes, I realize you need to make meaningful connections, and to make new friends, since you say you want to stop seeing your former sex partners or stop meeting the kind of people who are looking for that old type of connection. Why not try to meet people who are engaged in a similar lifepath than the one you are chosing?'

I have found that it takes a long time for her to 'get to it' for herself.  It seems to help if there is a consistency of message from other key people in their recovery, like with the sponsor, or with a support group buddy, or a therapist.

In her case, she will go through some sort of elimination process of all the worst options first. And it will grate on my nerves, of course. That's why for me it's so important to have almost daily talks with my own support people. Same as MissyM, it took me a while to find my own.

I have been to COSA meetings in my area and it was interesting for the accountability part, I agree. But I was not comfortable with some aspects of it. Like the religious tone and the co-addiction concepts did not work for me.  I discovered another group called POSA (Partners of SA). Based on an interpersonal trauma approach for the partner's healing, non-denominational, and with a series of steps also, but more open to include different modalities.

It's a pity that group stopped. Maybe there was an issue with the locality in my town (large city). But I also remembered feeling at times that there was a fair amount of new drop-in people, and the development part into deeper healing and accountability for more experienced members was less clear. This was a new type of support group and we were learing how to do it as we went.  //Actually, you can start one in your own town if you like. There is a start up kit on their main website (google POSARC).//  Thing is, for our group, we would have needed to start some sort of sub-group for the more advanced members. We chose instead to buddy up with each other by personal affinities, and to hold each other accountable for our own progress. A bit like you all posting on this board.

Another type of support that did me good was a small group therapy for partners of SAs, facilitated by a CSAT. This was the best for me. Very focused on building self-esteem, skills, developing more self-awareness, being accountable, and at same time, with the advantage of sharing and learning from others.

[braveSun]

Prolonged exposure to someone who has blurred lines in this area causes us to question our differentiation of our own needs, wants and values...

Yes.  It's soo true.

I was talking to one of my buddies today, and we were just talking about that. She was saying it's important to surround ourselves with accountable people, and to keep in close touch with our support people.

[Notwendy]

I've been to a couple of 12 step groups and they can be different. Some members are not religious. The original AA group built the steps on some spiritual principles, and there is a Christian bent to some of the wording, but the 12 steps have been adapated to other religions and also to those who are not. I think it is possible to adapt the wording to whatever it means to you. Some people attributed the idea of a "higher power" to something they decided worked for them. The idea was to decide that we can not control everything. Part of addictions and co-dependency is a form of control of others. Once we let go of the idea that we have control over others, we can focus on ourselves- and it is the shift of this focus that gets us working on ourselves.

The spiriual principles of the steps are also universal ones-can be found in other disciplines- psychology. They help with shame, resentment, fears and other aspects that concern us. So, they can work independently of religion. I think the wording of the Big Book- how he chose to say it is how he sees it, yet, the more I learn from it, the more universal it is in that it is so applicable to people of different backgrounds. 

It took me a while going to groups to even begin to feel the benefit. I was also pretty uncomfortable at first. It felt very foreign to me. I don't think I identified with some ideas or issues, but in time, I saw an underlying pattern to addictions and the non and how they interacted- regardless of some terms. Also you will find people with a range of problems at groups. Some can be quite "recovered" and some not at all. Still, some can be an inspiration. I found the adult child groups (ACOA) to be helpful as it did go into childhood issues, and it applies to children of dysfunctional homes as well as any addictions.

[MissyM]

COSA has evolved and most are now adapting to include the trauma model and drop the cosex addict talk (I never used that always said codependent to a sex addict).  As for religious bent, we have many different religions and lifestyles (some gay and some in open relationships) in my main group.  One of the first groups I tried was overly religious (really pushy about Christianity) and everyone said cosex addict, that is why I suggest trying a few.  There is also Sanon and if in Houston Milton Magness has a group (although he is very religious) and I have heard good things about it.  I also go to Alanon because no one pushes detachment more and I really needed it.  I agree that my small therapy group for spouses has been one of the best things I did but meetings, individual therapy and marital therapy have also been way up there.  What didn't work was talking to bitter people that pushed up my resentment level and expecting that if my husband would just do the work that we would be fine.

[vortex of confusion]

I find like Vortex that many times, my SO will only see that there is only one way to meet that need:

going outside the relationship for _____________________ .

I am seeing the B&W thinking in action there.

I think it is reasonable to go outside the relationship for some things. What those things are is something that should be negotiated between the two people involved in the relationship. The problem is that it is difficult to negotiate with somebody that will go along with whatever and then go back on what the agreement was.

I have found myself repeating many times 'Yes, I realize you need to make meaningful connections, and to make new friends, since you say you want to stop seeing your former sex partners or stop meeting the kind of people who are looking for that old type of connection. Why not try to meet people who are engaged in a similar lifepath than the one you are chosing?'

What I find interesting/funny/weird is that he has connections with people in real life. He doesn't like talking to them for some reason. He talks about how he turns his chat off for some of his friends because they "talk too much" yet he leave chat on for certain women. He tries to pose it to me as being lonely or wanting connection but, if that were the case, then it wouldn't really matter what gender the person is. And I know that he has female friends from his online games that he chats with in different places. To me, it looks like he is looking for a specific type of connection (one with potential for 'other' stuff) but is unable or unwilling to see that.

I have found that it takes a long time for her to 'get to it' for herself.  It seems to help if there is a consistency of message from other key people in their recovery, like with the sponsor, or with a support group buddy, or a therapist.

Even if he is surrounded by consistency, it seems like he still tries to distort reality and rationalize things so that they fit his perception of what is okay and what isn't. So many things leave me scratching my head because I will think that I know something or have my mind wrapped around something and then he will change something and I will walk away feeling really confused.

I have been to COSA meetings in my area and it was interesting for the accountability part, I agree. But I was not comfortable with some aspects of it. Like the religious tone and the co-addiction concepts did not work for me.  I discovered another group called POSA (Partners of SA). Based on an interpersonal trauma approach for the partner's healing, non-denominational, and with a series of steps also, but more open to include different modalities.

I am not sure if it was unique to the meeting I went to or what but I walked away from that meeting feeling like everything was somehow my fault. If I wasn't codependent, then my husband wouldn't have this problem. I am not sure if there are any POSA meetings in my area. If it is associated with POSARC, then I don't think there are. I am on their email list because they put out some really good articles and such about sex addiction.

Another type of support that did me good was a small group therapy for partners of SAs, facilitated by a CSAT. This was the best for me. Very focused on building self-esteem, skills, developing more self-awareness, being accountable, and at same time, with the advantage of sharing and learning from others. 

I looked for the "right" group for a while but gave up. I am trying to work up to being in that place again.

[Grey Kitty]

I have found myself repeating many times 'Yes, I realize you need to make meaningful connections, and to make new friends, since you say you want to stop seeing your former sex partners or stop meeting the kind of people who are looking for that old type of connection. Why not try to meet people who are engaged in a similar lifepath than the one you are chosing?'

What I find interesting/funny/weird is that he has connections with people in real life. He doesn't like talking to them for some reason. He talks about how he turns his chat off for some of his friends because they "talk too much" yet he leave chat on for certain women. He tries to pose it to me as being lonely or wanting connection but, if that were the case, then it wouldn't really matter what gender the person is. And I know that he has female friends from his online games that he chats with in different places. To me, it looks like he is looking for a specific type of connection (one with potential for 'other' stuff) but is unable or unwilling to see that.

I've been thinking about that sort of issue with my wife, and had a discussion with somebody else who has an ex; Both of them shared some sort of NEED to flirt.

Can you spend a little time thinking about exactly what your husband's NEED is?

I don't think your husband is stumbling based on his need to have a deep emotionally intimate connection. He could get that chatting with friends as easily as chatting with available women. He's making a deliberate choice, because it is meeting some need in him. (And in your H's case, he's not self-aware enough for you to believe most of what he says about it!)

What my wife does is she projects that she is "available" to guys. I can't put my finger on what she does, but the result is clear and consistent. They have interest. They flirt with her. She flirts back. (I'm sure she initiates flirting many times) This feeds something that she NEEDS to have fed. It wouldn't happen so often and so consistently, and with so many guys if it wasn't this way.

What she does next runs the gamut:

Lose interest and get away from the guy.

Have an emotional affair.

Not even be interested enough in the guy to have much interest to lose, and try to pry herself loose ASAP.

Keep the friendship, but shut down the flirting.

Start a serious long-term relationship with the guy.

Enjoy the flirting, and keep it at that level. [With some guys it is almost like a sport!]

Have a short fling with the guy and move on.

She's done all these things, several of them multiple times. To me this shows that her compulsive need is about the fishing, not about what she does after she hooks one. She seems to display executive control over this part of the decision; The different choices she makes appear to be consistent with the guy/situation in question each time. [The question of how consistent her choices are with my needs in my marriage is elsewhere all over this board!]

VOC, when you look at your H's behavior, which parts seem like a compulsive/addicted pattern? Are there parts where he seems to have good executive control, and make choices appropriate for the situation?

[vortex of confusion]

I've been thinking about that sort of issue with my wife, and had a discussion with somebody else who has an ex; Both of them shared some sort of NEED to flirt.

Can you spend a little time thinking about exactly what your husband's NEED is?

Hmmmm. . .I have been trying to think about what his need it but can't quite put my finger on it. I have tried to ask him what his needs are and pay attention to see if it is a need that I can realistically fill without creating resentments or sacrificing myself. When I talk to him about it, I am not getting that much insight because of the conflicting information. On one hand, he says that it is purely platonic and that he needs to talk to somebody when he is feeling lonely while at work. I get that part. What I am trying to understand is why it needs to be a female and why he is using dating sites to find them. I really do understand the need to have friends and connections outside of the relationship. Both of us have become very isolated over the years so I can really empathize with him about that.

I don't think your husband is stumbling based on his need to have a deep emotionally intimate connection. He could get that chatting with friends as easily as chatting with available women. He's making a deliberate choice, because it is meeting some need in him. (And in your H's case, he's not self-aware enough for you to believe most of what he says about it!)

In the past, I would put my doubts aside when things didn't quite add up. Right now, things are not adding up. On one hand, he is telling me that he is looking for platonic friends. At the same time, he is putting on his profile that he is in a poly relationship and is looking for other people that are poly/open. And, he has told me about discussions he has had where he has had open discussions with these other people about the status of the different relationships. If his true intent is to find platonic friends, then why does the status of their relationship matter. I know that my husband tends to relate to women better than men so I understand wanting to have platonic female friends. I get frustrated because:

1. He seems so unbelievably impatient. He seems to think that being sober and abstaining from sexual behaviors means that he is going to have to be celibate for the rest of his life.

2. The mixed signals. I don't understand why he thinks dating sites are the best places to find "friends". It is illogical to think that somebody on a dating site is going to be content with just being friends.

3. Why am I not enough? So many of the things that he claims to want and be looking for are things that I have tried to do for him and give him but he has rejected it at different times over the years.

4. Now that I am setting boundaries and not chasing him, he is now wanting the very things that he has rejected for years. For example, he tells me that he wants to cuddle with me and misses the touch. Frankly, I don't miss it because I tried to approach him for that for years and it was half azzed or he would turn his back to me.

5. I feel like this is all my fault because I am not giving in and going back to jumping through hoops.

What my wife does is she projects that she is "available" to guys. I can't put my finger on what she does, but the result is clear and consistent. They have interest. They flirt with her. She flirts back. (I'm sure she initiates flirting many times) This feeds something that she NEEDS to have fed. It wouldn't happen so often and so consistently, and with so many guys if it wasn't this way.

The stuff with him seeking women online only started a year or two ago but there are some definite patterns of him getting sucked in using the story that we are in an open relationship. He tends to use my behavior as justification for him doing whatever it is that he wants to do. I have tried to lay out the facts and the conditions that I want met:

-Complete honesty

-I want him to be in full recovery

-I want to work on rebuilding trust between us (I don't understand how him jumping back to answering and posting ads is going to help rebuild any sort of trust.)

-I want his outside activities to not interfere with our family life.

What she does next runs the gamut:

Lose interest and get away from the guy.

Have an emotional affair.

Not even be interested enough in the guy to have much interest to lose, and try to pry herself loose ASAP.

Keep the friendship, but shut down the flirting.

Start a serious long-term relationship with the guy.

Enjoy the flirting, and keep it at that level. [With some guys it is almost like a sport!]

Have a short fling with the guy and move on.

Hmmmm. . .I am going to have to think about his patterns. For the most part, there is only one person that he has talked to for any length of time. I am okay with him talking to her. That adds to my confusion because he can talk to me or her or any number of other people. From where I sit, it seems like he wants somebody that he can be in almost constant contact with. If I bring that up, he will tell me that the person he is emailing is okay with the emails being once in a while when both parties get a chance. If he was truly okay with that, then how come it isn't enough for him to talk to me or his other female friend or some of his other FB friends? That doesn't add up for me. He is either in denial himself or he is lying to me again.

In most cases, the women disappear on him before he ever has a chance to do much with them. It seems like the ones that hang around are bad news.

VOC, when you look at your H's behavior, which parts seem like a compulsive/addicted pattern? Are there parts where he seems to have good executive control, and make choices appropriate for the situation?

In all honesty, I am not sure. It is difficult for me to tell because he will present things as "normal". I can only get a glimpse into the compulsive/addicted pattern after it plays out for a while. It seems like things will start out innocent enough but then turns compulsive somewhere along the way.

During his disclosure to me, I found out that there was a lot more compulsive stuff going on than I realized. There were times when things seemed off between us but I didn't know why. Now that I know the level of fantasy that he was immersed in some things make a little more sense. I feel like the only way to truly know what is compulsive/addictive is to get inside his head. I really have a difficult time trusting my own judgment on this because, to me, it seems like anything other than working on his recovery or spending time with his kids is going to potentially set him on the wrong track. He says he wants to build emotional intimacy with me but turns around and starts posting ads again. It doesn't add up and I think it contributes to his pattern of saying one thing, sticking to it until he gets bored/impatient, and then changing his mind.

[Notwendy]

GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that. For one, it retains the sense of fantasy/not real- she can be her image of who she thinks she is. The attention is obvious, along with the validation that she is attractive and desirable.

I wouldn't say that I am the best example of someone with good self esteem, but I don't flirt and don't much like it if someone does with me. I know I am not super young, but still appealing. I think I could be successful flirting in my age group if I wanted to, but I don't want to. My mother has been a flirt her whole life ( not so much at her age) but she was extremely attractive and men were always hitting on her. I thought it was a bit creepy. Maybe that's why I don't do it.

However, I think it is a huge validation of desirablility. Some men do it too. I don't think it is right for your wife to flirt like that if it isn't good for your relationship, but I can see why she would not want to give it up if it makes her feel good about herself.

Likewise for Vortex. The thrill of the chase, the fantasy relationship is so much easier than the committed one. The internet women aren't real. You are, and that is so much more of a threat to an insecure person.

Addicts use all kinds of things to make themselves feel better and escape from their inner pain. Including people.

[vortex of confusion]

GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that. For one, it retains the sense of fantasy/not real- she can be her image of who she thinks she is. The attention is obvious, along with the validation that she is attractive and desirable.

I can't speak for GK but I can speak to my situation. I understand that my husband's behavior stems from some kind of unmet need. I think it is human nature to live in such a way that all of your needs are met. In my situation, it is me trying to figure out how in the heck my husband's needs intersect (or not) with my needs. IF my partner could clearly state that he wants and needs the validation of other women to make him feel more studly, then I might feel differently. Up until very recently, my husband would tell me that I met all of his needs. He tells me that he loves me and that I am his top priority, blah, blah, blah, yet when put to the task, he can't seem to behave in ways that are consistent with what he says. On a theoretical level, I can understand what is being said about the attention being obvious, etc.

On a very personal level, it hurts to think that I have spent all of these years pining for my husband and chasing him and trying to build him up yet it isn't enough. It hurts to think that he can't put some of his needs aside long enough for us to try to get to a point of stability or agreement or something. I have a difficult time focusing on what I need and want if I spend too much focusing on him.

In my mind, the reason for looking at patterns and identifying things that are going on with him is to help me figure out where I need to set boundaries. Personally, I am not bothered by flirting. In my opinion, a little flirting doesn't hurt anybody. The problem is when somebody is unable to draw a line and say, "Flirting is where is stops."

However, I think it is a huge validation of desirablility. Some men do it too. I don't think it is right for your wife to flirt like that if it isn't good for your relationship, but I can see why she would not want to give it up if it makes her feel good about herself.

Hmmm. . .I have never really seen flirting as a validation of desirability. At least I don't recall thinking about it that way. Sometimes, flirting is fun bantering with sexual overtones that has no meaning at all. I don't think GK is asking his wife to give up the flirting. Really, I am at a point where I feel like, "Who cares about whether or not my husband is being validated? Who cares if what he is doing is making him feel good? Why does any of that even matter? I am trying to figure out what is best for ME. I am trying to figure out how his behavior fits into what I want and need." If I take his behavior out of the context of our relationship, a lot of it makes perfect sense. I am trying to understand it, not to excuse it or feel better about it, but so that I can make decisions for ME.

Likewise for Vortex. The thrill of the chase, the fantasy relationship is so much easier than the committed one. The internet women aren't real. You are, and that is so much more of a threat to an insecure person.

I had to chuckle a bit when I read this. I know all about the thrill of the chase. I have been chasing my husband for years.

[waverider]

Your demarcation lines to define your wants, needs and values need to be engraved in rock. Once you start trying to take into account the apparent wants, needs, and values of someone you have no control over, in our cases a pwBPD, you are trying to draw these lines in shifting sands. They move and risk ultimately fading away.

[Grey Kitty]

Notwendy,

GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that.

This sounds very plausible for my wife. I'm sure it is coming from sort of unmet need, like VOC said.

If my wife decides that she wants to change her flirting behavior, that it is causing problems in her life and she doesn't want those consequences, then it will benefit HER a great deal to figure out why she needs to do this.

What is important FOR ME is that I notice that she DOES have a NEED to flirt, and that I determine if this really is a problem for me, or not. The question of why is interesting, but has no direct impact on my life... .especially since I've decided that it isn't a problem for her to flirt.


VOC, you express uncertainty about what your husband's compulsive needs are.

I think most of your confusion comes from believing what he says about it!    

Really! He has very little self-awareness and understanding. While I would believe he feels the way he's speaking about at the time he says it, I wouldn't assume that what he says about this is true just because he says it. (Nor would I assume it is false!)

My conclusion about my wife is not something she's told me. It is mostly my observation of her behavior over the last ~decade. I will add that she has told me that she thinks flirting is fun and harmless... .even that she wishes I did more of it. Her words help confirm it.

If I observe that she seems to do one thing very consistently... .I can conclude that there is a reason she does it--and she is getting some need met by doing it.

My suggestion is to look at your husband's behavior flirting/chasing women online/attempting poly relationships. Make a list of all their names, and note what the arc of the relationship was--how they met, what it built up to, how long it lasted, how it ended, etc.

See if some parts always or usually happen. Or was there a shift from one pattern to another one? Are there other parts that seem random and varied?

It is possible that you will notice that the compulsive parts aren't really the ones that bother you so much, which is what I've found with my wife.

[waverider]

Notwendy,

GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that.

This sounds very plausible for my wife. I'm sure it is coming from sort of unmet need, like VOC said.

If my wife decides that she wants to change her flirting behavior, that it is causing problems in her life and she doesn't want those consequences, then it will benefit HER a great deal to figure out why she needs to do this.

What is important FOR ME is that I notice that she DOES have a NEED to flirt, and that I determine if this really is a problem for me, or not. The question of why is interesting, but has no direct impact on my life... .especially since I've decided that it isn't a problem for her to flirt.


VOC, you express uncertainty about what your husband's compulsive needs are.

I think most of your confusion comes from believing what he says about it!    

Really! He has very little self-awareness and understanding. While I would believe he feels the way he's speaking about at the time he says it, I wouldn't assume that what he says about this is true just because he says it. (Nor would I assume it is false!)

My conclusion about my wife is not something she's told me. It is mostly my observation of her behavior over the last ~decade. I will add that she has told me that she thinks flirting is fun and harmless... .even that she wishes I did more of it. Her words help confirm it.

If I observe that she seems to do one thing very consistently... .I can conclude that there is a reason she does it--and she is getting some need met by doing it.

My suggestion is to look at your husband's behavior flirting/chasing women online/attempting poly relationships. Make a list of all their names, and note what the arc of the relationship was--how they met, what it built up to, how long it lasted, how it ended, etc.

See if some parts always or usually happen. Or was there a shift from one pattern to another one? Are there other parts that seem random and varied?

It is possible that you will notice that the compulsive parts aren't really the ones that bother you so much, which is what I've found with my wife.

A pwBPDs  reasons and beliefs for their behavior can seriously confuse our own ability to believe our own perceptions. It's all smoke and mirrors. The truth may be hidden in there somewhere but it is well obscured

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, you express uncertainty about what your husband's compulsive needs are.

I think most of your confusion comes from believing what he says about it!    

I am not sure that my confusion stems from believing what he says. My confusion stems from the fact that I feel like his compulsive need has nothing to do with sex or women or anything like that. He gets caught up in his computer games too. He gets up in the morning and the first thing he does is sits down and plays his computer games. Before we had kids, it was porn. His pattern was to get up in the morning and drink his coffee and look at porn and um take care of himself. Now, he gets up, drinks his coffee, and plays his computer games.

If I am 100% honest with myself, I feel like his compulsive need is to avoid reality. I feel like his compulsive need is to escape being a husband and a father.

Really! He has very little self-awareness and understanding. While I would believe he feels the way he's speaking about at the time he says it, I wouldn't assume that what he says about this is true just because he says it. (Nor would I assume it is false!)

I can neither confirm nor deny anything.    I don't know if he lacks awareness or if he is too afraid to tell me some of these hard things.

My conclusion about my wife is not something she's told me. It is mostly my observation of her behavior over the last ~decade. I will add that she has told me that she thinks flirting is fun and harmless... .even that she wishes I did more of it. Her words help confirm it.

That is a bit of a sore spot with me. My husband doesn't really flirt with me and it irks me that he can flirt with these other women and have some really racy conversations with them but he can't seem to do it with me. I used to flirt with him and brush up against him and do all sorts of things to let him know that I found him attractive and wanted him. He didn't return the favor.

My suggestion is to look at your husband's behavior flirting/chasing women online/attempting poly relationships. Make a list of all their names, and note what the arc of the relationship was--how they met, what it built up to, how long it lasted, how it ended, etc.

Hmmm. . .

-I chased one of them away when I emailed her and told her that he was a sex addict.

-I chased another one away by simply emailing her and comparing stories of what he had told her versus what was really going on. She was pretty cool and we are now FB friends.

-There was one that he talked to a little and then went and met and went and did stuff in the woods. I don't think he ever talked to her again after that.

-One he went and had lunch with and I think he cut it off not long after that.

-There have been a couple that he emailed for a short period of time that up and disappeared.

Some of them, he has sent them messages and then deleted his email account so that they could never contact him again. Most of the time, he did that after I started questioning him about his intentions and whether or not he was being honest with himself and these other women. Any time I would try to work out the poly aspect of things, he would throw a bit of a tantrum and then remove his ads, get rid of the women, and delete his email account. I have no idea how many disposable email addresses he has or has had over the years.

See if some parts always or usually happen. Or was there a shift from one pattern to another one? Are there other parts that seem random and varied?

The overall pattern seems to be one of avoidance.

It is possible that you will notice that the compulsive parts aren't really the ones that bother you so much, which is what I've found with my wife.

Hmmmm. . .I think that may be something to think about. IF I thought that he was acting out of compulsivity on some of this stuff, I think it would be easier to deal with. I feel like what I have a problem with is the overall lack of commitment and the overall feeling that he is trying to avoid being a father and a husband.

[waverider]

Avoidance of responsibility and accountability is at the root of most BPD motivations. It is instinctive, I doubt they are even conscious of it a lot of the time.

Even if avoidance is the hardest route. As you say is almost a compulsive need rather than just being idle or lazy about lifting their game.

[Grey Kitty]

I feel like what I have a problem with is the overall lack of commitment and the overall feeling that he is trying to avoid being a father and a husband.

Yup, I think you nailed it right there.

It does sound like he likes to flirt online... .I'd also note that any time you questioned him about his activities he totally dumped them, deleted the email account, etc.

If he really wanted some kind of r/s with them, he could have stayed in contact or gotten back in contact. Or just defied you about it. (Go re-read my story about my wife and ask me how I know!)

And he didn't do that with any of them.

He won't commit to any of these women he chases after either.

And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.

[MissyM]

And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.

This is 1,000% true for my dBPDh.  He didn't ever really want someone else.  He just wanted to feel better, to erase the feeling of being inadequate and unlovable.  If women showed an interest in him, then it would prove he had worth.  The women he had sex with were prostitutes or one time with a hook up that sounds like an SA  None of it made him feel good, it would just momentarily give him a relief from the pain and emptiness he felt.  Learning to fill those things with healthy activities is the challenge for a recovering addict. 

[MissyM]

Oh, and what I wrote is what my dBPDh has told me and not just what I think was going on, even though I believe that is right.

[waverider]

Its the endless pursuit of validation in a futile attempt to fill that black hole that is their own sense of worthlessness.

Which is just one branch of basic neediness. A lack of values linked to an inability to to separate wants from needs

[braveSun]

It appears like this issue of intimacy has to do with not being intimate with each other, within our relationship, or not enough.

Some of the dilemma with SA is maybe like it's for a legitimate need, but no one knows how to re-connect and re-build that trust, so the outside sources might not be needed after all. Thus the need for therapy and learning new skills, etc...

It seems to me that my SO has a very deep need to connect with people. She does have that need to connect with me too, but it's more complicated, considering that she knows she has hurt me. I the same, for myself with my anger displays, and sometimes controling ways. But in general, I see that there is this need to connect and be seen by each other. That's like in any human relationships.

Another thing is with labeling. With the labels of BPD and nons, sometimes, I seem to feed our talking in circles, because of maybe my expectations of what I can expect of her are based on what I read else where. Where is she, truely, will I know it? And does that change over time?

In another post I read today, I was reminded that the disorder is a spectrum disorder. Some people are at the low functioning end of the spectrum, and some people are at the high functioning end of it. With this in mind, one would think that it would make a lot of sense to work on behaviors which affect us, personally.

I think for me it's the intimacy I miss the most with my SO. I see that like you all, it bothers me that she would feel like she can have it with someone else but not with me.  (Not that I beleive she has the same type of intimacy as I have in mind with her affairs). The compulsion to go get the connectivity outside kind of makes me feel like I don't count.

Where to start?... .I totally agree with Vortex on seeing her H as he being avoiding being a father and a loving husband. 

[MissyM]

I think for me it's the intimacy I miss the most with my SO. I see that like you all, it bothers me that she would feel like she can have it with someone else but not with me.  (Not that I beleive she has the same type of intimacy as I have in mind with her affairs). The compulsion to go get the connectivity outside kind of makes me feel like I don't count.

Where to start?

Hmm, did you ever really have intimacy with her? Or was it just intensity?  I know SAs confuse intensity with intimacy and partners can too.  I don't think my dBPDh and I ever had real intimacy until now.  By that I mean that he really saw me, the good and the bad not an all white or all black.  Where are you in the process?  The attachment couples work is amazing once the SA has some recovery going and the spouse has done some healing.

[vortex of confusion]

It does sound like he likes to flirt online... .I'd also note that any time you questioned him about his activities he totally dumped them, deleted the email account, etc.

He would rather delete the stuff and dump them so as to avoid having to have any kind of real conversation with me. It was about avoidance. I told him this evening that I felt like his choice to do the online thing is hurting the progress that we were making. If he wants to rebuild trust, then he is going to have to stick to his word and not change things on me midstream. I had to stop myself at one point because he gave the excuse that he didn't remember him agreeing to not post online ads and he didn't remember me saying that I would like for him to wait on doing anything like that until we rebuilt some of the trust. Even if we can't work on our relationship directly, we can at least work on not doing any more damage and I feel like him making this choice damages the relationship further.

If he really wanted some kind of r/s with them, he could have stayed in contact or gotten back in contact. Or just defied you about it. (Go re-read my story about my wife and ask me how I know!)

He has only stayed in contact with one of them. He has defied me on a few things. Really, I think it boils down to him choosing whichever course of action is easiest.

And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.

BINGO! He will occasionally say very flattering things to me but he doesn't flirt with me. Half the time, he doesn't even seem to notice me. I think a lot of things would evaporate pretty quickly if he put as much effort into me as he does that stuff (whether it is his games, flirting with women, or whatever his latest obsession is).

[vortex of confusion]

Oh, and what I wrote is what my dBPDh has told me and not just what I think was going on, even though I believe that is right.

I know that I have told mine that I have felt like I wasn't enough for him and he has said straight up that nothing is ever enough for him, especially when he is in a period of acting out.

[vortex of confusion]

I think for me it's the intimacy I miss the most with my SO. I see that like you all, it bothers me that she would feel like she can have it with someone else but not with me.  (Not that I beleive she has the same type of intimacy as I have in mind with her affairs). The compulsion to go get the connectivity outside kind of makes me feel like I don't count.

Where to start?

Hmm, did you ever really have intimacy with her? Or was it just intensity?  I know SAs confuse intensity with intimacy and partners can too.  I don't think my dBPDh and I ever had real intimacy until now.  By that I mean that he really saw me, the good and the bad not an all white or all black.  Where are you in the process?  The attachment couples work is amazing once the SA has some recovery going and the spouse has done some healing.

The question about whether or not we ever really had intimacy is one that I ask myself all the time. In my case, I don't think it was intensity because our relationship has never really been one of those that were intense. If anything, I went into the relationship with my husband because I thought he was safe. I feel like my husband has always painted me white. I know I am a pain in the butt but hardly ever gives me any kind of feedback that is worthwhile. It is like I can do no wrong, which is confusing because I know there have been times when I have tried to deliberately irritate him or get him to react to something.

Your point about the spouse having time to heal is something that I need to remember. No matter what becomes of our relationship, I need some time to heal and I can't heal if he is already trying to find new online "friends". I feel like it has set me back quite a bit and it is going to be that much more difficult to even consider any possibility other than leaving as soon as possible.

[Grey Kitty]

And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.

BINGO! He will occasionally say very flattering things to me but he doesn't flirt with me. Half the time, he doesn't even seem to notice me. I think a lot of things would evaporate pretty quickly if he put as much effort into me as he does that stuff (whether it is his games, flirting with women, or whatever his latest obsession is).

I agree--many problems in your r/s would evaporate if he put that kind of effort into being with you or your r/s, instead of avoiding it with whatever obsession he's chasing.

That would be a HUGE change on his part, and the result of a lot of personal growth.

My point was that the attention he showers on these online women is only sustainable for him AS HE IS TODAY because he doesn't have a real r/s with any real intimacy or real connection. *IF* he were to try to sustain something with them... .he would blow it, shut it down, lose the flirty attention and interest, delete the email account, etc.

The story you are telling of him points at somebody who has very little capacity for real intimacy.

You are seeing the whole picture. When he's just met and started flirting with some woman online, he can fake something more... .for a little while.

In other words... .what you desperately want from him that he's not giving you... .it isn't that he won't give it to you (and does give it to other women). As of today, he doesn't have it and cannot offer it to anyone.

[vortex of confusion]

In other words... .what you desperately want from him that he's not giving you... .it isn't that he won't give it to you (and does give it to other women). As of today, he doesn't have it and cannot offer it to anyone.

The reality is that I don't think he will ever be able to offer it to anyone no matter what he tells me or himself. I spent over an hour on the phone with his mom. We talked about a whole bunch of stuff and I brought up a few of my complaints and her comment was something along the lines of "Sounds like he has reverted to being just like he was when he was a kid." She said she tried to teach him better than that but it never seemed to sink in. She shared that his dad was pretty much absent too. His dad never really played with him when he was a kid. His dad had no idea how to discipline kids and pretty much let them do whatever so it all fell on his mom. She admitted that she didn't have a lot of tools and didn't know what to do so she reverted to yelling most of the time.

[braveSun]

Hmm, did you ever really have intimacy with her? Or was it just intensity?  I know SAs confuse intensity with intimacy and partners can too.  I don't think my dBPDh and I ever had real intimacy until now.  By that I mean that he really saw me, the good and the bad not an all white or all black.  Where are you in the process?

Good question. I had really good moments. If we define intimacy as in sharing and seeing each other, definitely yes, it has happened. Sometimes I wonder if what I am dealing with is not really that we had a good connection, but when it got to be time to move forward into it, than the reactivity/avoidance started. And I don't mean only on her part with one side and me with the other side. We took turns. I beleive there is some of that in every relationships, especially at the beginning. It just got to be way more of that than expected.

Once I learned about her having a SA, and later when I learned about her BPD diagnosis, certain expectations/fears on my part came along. (I'm not saying that it was not a good thing to have the dx, on the contrary, but that it takes a time to integrate). Those expectations/fears were not always matched by her true intentions or behaviors. There were more and more times when her behaviors betrayed her intentions for sure. But there were times also where I felt like I was expecting the other shoe to drop, and did not necessarily see her for where she was at.

When you say that you don't think you two ever had real intimacy until now, I can relate to that. For my relationship, it was like little islands of insights we've had, which kept me staying for more. Those moments were true intimacy, not necessarily in the sexual sense, but in the sense of being seen, in our vulnerability. Overtime, these moments were less and less romantic, as the presence of the compulsive, hurtful behavior increased. When we got intimacy-moments later in the progress of the manifestation of the addiction/BPD, they were more related to remorse moments, and intense experiences of sharing a sense of failure on her part, or of my intense sharing of my pain at the betrayals on my side.

This qualifies as intimacy for me. However, it's the joys and the lightheartedness, and the fun parts, and the pleasureable parts which went gradually missing.

I beleive intimacy is something two people build together, and it can only happen if the two partner can feel trust in one another. Over time it grows, or it gets hurt.

I realise that she may be on the high functioning end of the spectrum. Because she worked hard at her recovery, and has come up with very valid points recently. She seems to go through the cycles still, but has a good understanding of what is at stake now. I'm grateful for that.

Than, as soon as I have a good feeling on how far we've got, I am reminded that she is a pwBPD.

There is always the possibility that I don't get her right, or that she doesn't get me right. The order of the disorder seems to prove that.

The attachment couples work is amazing once the SA has some recovery going and the spouse has done some healing.

So far, I've chosen to not see her until she has stopped the hurtful behavior. I see that she's not stopped yet. I have offered her to go to couples therapy if she succeeds. That would give me safe grounds for the possibility of a sensible future for the relationship to grow.

Now we are in a NC period, where we are working on our own parts and observing. If we decide after the NC period is over to confirm forward the relationship, we will see into that.

[Ziggiddy]

This topic will now be locked due to reaching posting limits.