Child wanting to spend time with only 1 parent

[Swiggle]

I've posted a few stories about my DH's uBPDex who continues her crazymaking stuff. DSD12 has several times recently mentioned to DH that she doesn't want to live with mom any longer and how/when does she get to make the choice. DH explained that when she finds her inner voice and can express her wants/needs with her mom that is the first step in that choice.

DSD in terrified of her mother. Recently the mom, DSD and DSS moved in with mom's boyfriend, who is 10 years younger than their mom. This is only one of DSD issues with the situation. Also mom and boyfriend are inappropriate with each other even in front of the kids. Things like grabbing each other, grinding on each other while making faces, making comments that DSD gets. She tried talking to her mom about it and the convo ended up with mom crying hysterically and making the issue about everything other than what DSD was bringing up, the inappropriateness. Mom insisted it doesn't happen, that DsD just doesn't liek BF and how she loves dad more than her and how hurtful that is and blah blah blah. DSD told her dad and I about this convo and actually called her mom's reaction "pathetic".

BF also drinks A LOT. He is rude to the kids, bossy, snotty and generally doesn't care about them like I do (those were DSD words). They are strangers in their home becasue BF has done nothing to make them feel welcomed. They are sent off to their rooms when mom or BF want to watch TV. They never do anything together.

DSD is realizing who mom really is and that it is more about her needs, not her kids but she can't even stand up to mom on little things. For example. Mom took DSD to get her eyes checked/new glasses in June, before her new vision insurance kicked in. She did not let DSD pick out her own frames and insisted she get the ones mom liked. Fast forward 4 monhts and we decided since DSD now had vision insurance and coverage for new frames we were going to let her get sunglasses. In the end we found out that she really wanted these other frames that actually looked great on her so instead of getting sunglasses she got the frames she wanted. When mom found out she let DSD have it and made it clear she didn't like the new frames so DSD changes into her old frames whenever she is going to mom's house. How sad is that.  .

We always want to be as supportive of her relationship with her mom becasue it is the right things to do but we also know how difficult and loney DSD feels. If we fight for this I don't think we would win, we've talked to two therapists about it and the outcome is not likely.

What do we say to DSD how do we help her with this huge choice she seems to want to make.

[livednlearned]

We always want to be as supportive of her relationship with her mom becasue it is the right things to do but we also know how difficult and loney DSD feels. If we fight for this I don't think we would win, we've talked to two therapists about it and the outcome is not likely.

What do we say to DSD how do we help her with this huge choice she seems to want to make.

I would consult with a lawyer and ask how things work where you live. Therapists mean well, and they may have experience with custody situations, but they aren't lawyers. My therapist often gives me advice that my L always responds to by saying, "I respect your therapist and her intentions, but she is not a lawyer, anymore than I am a therapist."

I'm curious, though -- if court was not involved and it was up to you and your DH, would you let D12 make the decision to not live with her mom?

[Swiggle]

The T that is involved is an expert witness in the county we live in and the county that my DH was divorced in, they are neigboring counties. She is highly regarded in her field and as an expert witness and she knows my L very well and he her. They both have said the same things.

They have both explained how the process would work. We would file, his ex would freak ... obviously. They would assign a GAL, they would interview many people in the kids lives, our lives as well as the kids. We were also told that because of the county we live in unless kids are in imminent danger the courts do not generally rule posivtively in cases like this since it isn't against the law to be a ___ty parent. Proving the she is disordered may not get us what we think is best either, plus the courts do not like hearing things like parental alienation and things like that, which is what she does. Also, both kids are terrified of their mother. I don't think they would but i'm not certain they would be truthful with people interviewing them if they had any notion of what the outcome might be. I think that mom would def. start telling them that if they say this or that she will be angry, or not love them or that they will never see her again. I'm not confident that they wouldn't change their tune and thus we would look like the bad guys for bringing it up.

It was suggested that when they get to the point where they are wanting to not be with mom we would have a better chance since it is coming from teh kids vs. the evil ex DH and the evil step-mother. It is a tough situation! On one hand we don't want them to learn that when things are tough you just run away and we want to encourage them becasue it is the right thing to do... .or is it? I mean we know how she treats them, we know how she is.

If it was completetly up to us we would have them both all of the time. I think for their mental and emotional health we offer a more stable environment than mom ever has/would. But we have to look at it logically. And don't get me wrong I would pay any amount of $$ to get this for them but the fear of doing so, to not win in the end is terrifying.

If we decide to do it and win mom becomes the victim and who knows what she will say to the kids, then do they hate us for taking them away from mom?

If we let DSD come to the conclusion herself that it is better for her to live with us versus mom, I feel that we aren't taking something from her. We are letting her learn to try and deal with mom and when she can't take it any longer how she can protect herself and do what is right for her.

Sorry I'm rambling.

[livednlearned]

I'm finding that there are two things that my son needs to get through adolescence. One is believing that when he asks for help, someone really listens. And the other is believing that he can make a situation better himself. Kids who have disordered parents suffer a secondary type of damage because they become collateral damage in an adversarial court system, which makes it hard for them to develop a positive internal dialog about whether they, or the people who love them, can make things better for them.

Their sense of self worth is often devastated by the disordered parent's neglect or abuse, so they need adults to validate for them it is not right for someone to be that way with them, and they need to learn in other parts of their life that they can get help and make things better for themselves, even if that doesn't apply to the relationship they have with the disordered parent. The tricky part for us is that we want our kids to develop healthy coping mechanisms that the court system makes nearly impossible to do.

I really confused my son when he was having a hard time with his dad and I was meanwhile verbally supporting that relationship. It really messed him up. He needed more validation from me about the traumatic things he was experiencing, and more transparency about why there were limits to what I could do to protect him. I had to work with my T and his T, and even though I made some mistakes, ultimately it was cathartic for S13 to have a conversation about what was happening.

By the time kids are 12 and 13, they are astute enough to know if you are withholding information from them, and that can create distrust and make them feel isolated. It's a really hard gauntlet to run -- trying to avoid disparaging the other parent while validating your child. I ended up saying to S13 that there are bigger forces at work in our situation, as well as other adults who agree that there is something seriously wrong with N/BPDx and how he interacts not just with S13, but with everyone. I said that people want to help N/BPDx, but since he doesn't agree that there is something wrong, that makes it extremely unlikely that he will get better. I also told S13 that when people don't agree about things, like me and his dad, that they have to follow a process that involves lots of people and takes a long time, and sometimes that process can make everything worse and be traumatizing for kids, and that I needed to make sure the process didn't do that to S13.

The guidance counselor is helping S13 deal with depression and peer issues at school right now. S13 is not asserting himself with some toxic peers and it reminds me of how he dealt (or didn't deal) with his dad. The counselor is helping S13 navigate that by giving him permission to "buy time." He tellsS13, "Maybe right now it's hard to figure out ways to deal with these guys, so you buy time. You tell them you have to go see the nurse, then you ask for me, and we talk about something you can try to get a break. You experiment and see what works, what doesn't work, until eventually you have one or two things that help you create a safety zone."

I wish I had helped S13 with that when he was dealing with his dad. Visitation is terminated, so we have a different set of issues to deal with now. But the legacy is there in S13 -- he has a defeatist attitude that we're trying to shift toward a more pro-active mindset.

I really feel for your situation, and your SD12. This stuff is so hard to deal with.  :'(

[Swiggle]

It is so hard. I mean her mom provides for them food (although not very good food), shelter (although it isn't a home), the things they need (sometimes to much in that she tries to buy them to pacify them). She doesn't beat them, she isn't a rager type of person she plays the victim... it is everyone elses fault. Her relationship with the BF is dysfunctional but not so extreme that you feel for their safety. So you question if it is just parenting styles/choices that are different and think "well just becasue I don't do xyz like she does, doesn't make what she is doing wrong.

DH and I want them to be with us all the time but we worry that we have a weak case for getting that, especially if it isn't comign from the kids. Now, might a GAL and evaluator interview them and say "yeah, mom is pretty uninvolved but she isn't a danger to them", yes. But then what does that get us, we've dragged them through the court system for nothing.

But I feel guilty for not helping DSD get what she needs by advocating for her, simply because I know our chances of winning aren't great.

She sees her mom for who she is. I don't think she associates it with a personality disorder but she def. sees the dysfunction, she has even connected some dots about things with her mom and her mom's FOO.

We really don't know what to do and feel stuck with the way things are. We def listen to DSD whenever she wants to talk and we help her navigate those feelings or help her problem solve trying to fix them and/or how to protect herself when something is going on. I think that also plays into why she wants to be with us all the time. Mom = not being respected, not having a say, feeling like an annoyance, having to walk on eggshells and so on. We = love, caring, boundaries, respect, inclusion, family, being accepted and everyting else.

We don't make excuses for mom any longer but we also don't talk about what we think is wrong with mom. We bought the book Walking on Eggshells recently and it was laying in a pile on the bookshelf. One day I panicked thnking "what if she snooped and read it" then I thought would that really be so bad. Maybe she could get some validation other than from us on her mom's behavior.

Her mom's birtday was last weekend. We were out so I asked if they would like to get a gift for their mom, DSS was like woo hoo and DSD... .it was like pulling teeth. The card she got for her mom: on the outside it said "It is your birthday this is your card" on the insdie it said "and this is the inside of your card". So telling to how DSD feels about her mom, next year I will only get a gift if she brings it up. But in my mind I know those things look good in the eyes of the court, should it ever get that far. I certainly don't have a desire to spend my money or time for a woman who has been nothingn but aweful to me and who treats her kids like things! I wish it were easier.

[livednlearned]

It is really hard.

The tough thing is that there will always be people who trip our kids' triggers. The hardest decision I have made in my life was terminating visitation, even though that's what I have been going for these past four years. Is the answer to a difficult person removing them from your life? I don't know.   

It might be hard in the short term for SD12, but better in the long term that she develops effective strategies for dealing with her mom. Whatever she learns, she'll apply to similar situations. That might be all you can do -- court battles are awful for everyone involved. My T characterizes my reactions to court as PTSD. And it goes on for a long time. What's better for SD12? Validating the heck out of her experience and pointing out when she successfully applies a technique or tool that helps her cope? Or removing her from the situation?

It's an extremely hard call, different for everyone.

I advocated for termination of visitation because I have an excellent judge, an excellent lawyer, and my ex is former trial attorney representing himself -- his disordered thinking is on full display, no filter whatsoever. He also has a tendency to document the worst of his behavior and email it to me and anyone else who he can think to contact, including S13. But the biggest motivator is that S13 seems to have a sensitive genotype. Diagnosed with depression at age 10, and some other anxiety disorder issues that make him particularly susceptible to BPD abuse. I suspect he is a lot like his dad in temperament, and that made me more worried than if he seemed like a resilient kid. 

If I didn't have all that, I don't know that I would've advocated so hard through legal channels. It broke me financially, and I'm grateful I won, but even with so much in my favor, I lost some motions and it took a long time -- over 60 motions in 4 years.

If you feel that SD12 is not in immediate danger and she has a more or less resilient disposition, maybe it makes more sense to load up on the therapeutic scaffolding.

[Swiggle]

Thanks LNL! It really helps to hear other stories, how they played out, they type of child and all the other factors. SD is resilient, our T probably sees that and that's why she thinks just working with her would be better than a court battle.

Our communication with SD is great, maybe we just keep plugging away with helping her cope. Let her see the T more often to talk through what makes her want to not be with mom and how she can figure that out.

[livednlearned]

Thanks LNL! It really helps to hear other stories, how they played out, they type of child and all the other factors. SD is resilient, our T probably sees that and that's why she thinks just working with her would be better than a court battle.

Our communication with SD is great, maybe we just keep plugging away with helping her cope. Let her see the T more often to talk through what makes her want to not be with mom and how she can figure that out.

I would also ask your T how to respond to SD12's comments about wanting to not see her mom. Somehow you have to let her know that you hear her, and understand, and would feel the same way, all those ways of authentically validating her -- while at the same time making it clear that the court process isn't set up to help her, and could make it worse. Without saying that.    And at the same time making her feel that she can successfully navigate the challenges with her mom, with you helping her.

It seems perfectly appropriate to me that she picked the birthday card for her mom that she did. It's actually very clever of her to engage in the act of giving a card, and then pick one that doesn't betray how she truly feels toward her mom. Love is extremely complicated for kids who have BPD parents. Maybe when SD12 is in her 30s she will have worked through what her feelings are for her mom -- love, compassion, forgiveness, disgust, pity, anger, it's hard to know. But right now, she just needs you to validate that her feelings are real, even if they include disgust for her mom. She has to grow up faster than other kids. That's the collateral damage of having a parent with the emotional IQ of someone roughly 7 or 8 years old. They see how adults can be "pathetic" to use her words.

My biggest worry with S13 is that he has a higher than normal threshold for jerks and tricky people who seem like friends, but aren't. He still hasn't figured out how to be assertive and take care of himself. I don't know how to help him, except that when we're out and an awkward situation comes up, I model healthy assertiveness for him. One time we were at an aquarium and they had one of those photographers who try to take your picture and sell it to you. We couldn't get into the aquarium without going through a room where they were set up, and they kept asking us if they could take our picture, like 6 times. I just politely but firmly said, No thanks, no thanks, no thanks, and then kept walking. Something as simple as that is hard for S13. After we got into the aquarium he told me he needs to learn how to say no to people in a nice way like that.

Your SD12 might have a different challenge -- maybe she is more assertive than S13. But more than likely, whatever is difficult with her mom will be something she has to work out with friends. She may tolerate more promiscuous friends, or let people say mean things to her. Those are opportunities to help her with her mom without talking specifically about her mom.

It sounds like you have a good therapist, so you probably already know all this stuff.   

[Boss302]

I feel for you. I have two kids - D18, who's away at college (which she no doubt thanks God for daily), and D14, who I have primary custody of; UBPDx has three weekends a month with her. Mom's a chronic liar who has definitely chosen D18 as her "good child," to the point where D13's "birthday present" was to have D18 come home for a weekend visit. No cake, no party, not even a card. Just one book in a plastic sack, and she gets to see her sister. Gee, thanks, Mom, right?

Mom also has huge stability issues - she has been evicted three times since 2010, the last time in January. She lived in a spare room at a friend's house for almost six months (she lived in her sister's basement for over a year in 2012). so now she lives in a hotel (a nice one, but a hotel nonetheless). She has also constantly lied to D14 (and me) about her living conditions - she's carted the kids around to numerous houses she supposedly wants to buy, and all of them mysteriously fall through (imagine that - no one wants to rent to her or give her a loan with three evictions on her credit report). She also lost her driver's license, so she can't take D13 anywhere - she depends on friends to cart her around. I have no idea what's behind that, but it happens.

So, long story short, D14 is mainly stuck in a hotel room for three weekends a month. And she's so miserable with it, and so sick of the lies, that she doesn't want to go there on weekends. That puts me in a bad spot. I don't want to force the kid to do something she doesn't want to do, and it hurts me to think of my daughter being cooped up with crazy lady. It makes me feel helpless. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought this might actually be a kind of blessing in disguise. It forces D14 to confront and deal with her mom's BPD in a way D18 never had to - she was able to basically skip town, but D14 can't. this gives her the opportunity to learn how to deal with her mom on HER own terms, not mom's. Keeping her away from Mom doesn't really address that.

Towards that end, I've been validating her feelings towards her mom, and relaying the appropriate stories from my experience so that she knows that when mom lies to her and does stuff like blowing off her birthday, it's not D14's fault - it's all mom's BPD. She did the same with me (one year for Christmas she actually printed a window sticker from a car I liked off the Internet and put it in my stocking, with a note that it'd be delivered a week later... .and did it ever show up? Here's the answer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A). The key to her opening up, I think, was that I promised not to make a stink with her mother about what she revealed to me. Of course, if I hear something like "mom's shooting up heroin," that's an issue, but her usual garbage behaviors aren't anything I necessarily need to deal with legally, or even confront her on.

D14 also has a therapist and a school counselor she's close with, and they've been a blessing (particularly the counselor). Hopefully your DSD has one too (sounds like she does).

The result? Let me relay you a story from yesterday. I made an appointment for D14 to see the doctor because she's getting frequent nausea. I asked the doctor whether this could be one of the side effects of Wellbutrin, which D14 takes. I am required to tell UBPDx when I'm taking the kids to the doctor. So, of course, this is now a huge issue for her, and a perfect opportunity for drama. She calls the doctor's office and they relay a conversation I had with them asking if Wellbutrin could be causing her stomach issues. And then UBPDx turns this into "Bad old Dad wants to take my poor little baby off her meds!" She starts making accusations yesterday on email, which I told her were false. And then she starts texting D14 in school, implying she was in some kind of distress. D14 calls back, and mom tells her "daddy wants to take you off Wellbutrin," which D14 knows is pure BS, and tells mom this (which was actually confirmed by her friend, who was with her): "You mean to tell me you scared the crud out of me during school so you could use me as a tool to get at Dad?"... .and hung up on her.

A year ago, she wouldn't even talk to me about her relationship with her mom. Now, not only does she talk, she sets boundaries and GETS ANGRY with her. Wow. Can I get a hallelujah? BOUNDARIES! Yes, it's coming out as anger, but the boundaries are there and she's telling Mom where her limits are.

You cannot protect your stepchildren 100% from mom. It's not possible. As long as this woman is in their lives, she will cause drama. I think the key to this is to give the kids the tools they need to deal with her. I'd like to say that taking them away from her might help, but maybe it won't. Maybe the key in your case is that they have to truly learn to deal with her on their own terms. That's a skill that will stick with them for life. It'd be better (and definitely easier) to do that with custody, but it's not impossible without it.

I'd say to keep on validating the kids. Make sure they know they can come to you with issues and that they will not be judged, or used as pawns in a custody game. Make sure they know that you won't necessarily even confront mom on anything they say unless it's something related to safety, or grossly inappropriate behavior from BF. "My ex's crazy boyfriend" is a trip I've never needed to worry about, unless vibrators start walking, talking and using drugs.

My other thought is that maybe taking custody away from Mom won't work, but what about asking for an incremental increase in visitation? Every minute those kids spend with your family is a minute they spend in a non-disordered environment. Based on mom having a boy toy around now, she might even be amenable to it - they can get as rowdy as they want.

Hang in there, in any case. I truly do believe that these things happen to kids for a reason, and the suffering may actually help them in the longer run.

[Boss302]

Update to Swiggle, in case you're still reading... .

Both kids have basically given up on UBPDx "mom." D14 won't stay with her anymore because she's sick of getting mistreated, turns out D18's tuition was never paid, so she was kicked out of school and had to move back home, and both have found out she's stealing money from them. Neither wants anything to do with her at this point.

Like I said... .sometimes these things do work out.