Triangulation: Is it ever ok? And other poems...

[Bloomer]

My trip is going pretty good. H seems to be fine with the level of communication and I feel good about having some extra space right now, without it seeming at all pointed and causing issues. We've only spoken on the phone twice since I got here (last Sunday). The second time was on Friday and it didn't end well. The last time we visited my cousin together she took some space (which looked like her avoiding spending time with me while I was there) for herself because it was obvious that we were fighting and she picked up on the tension as well as my anxiety. She didn't fully understand it at the time but it really caused a riff in our relationship. We didn't speak much after the visit and it took several months for me to deal with it in therapy and bring it up to her. We resolved things and that was when we thought maybe I should come out on my own to see her.

Now, H knew about things and when this happened he thought it was because of him because my cousin knows all about our relationship and H feels very aware of that and how it might make her feel about him. I also threw this at him during an argument because I did at one point blame him for not getting to spend time with my cousin on that trip since he was the one dysregulating throughout our vacation. So I talked to my therapist in a phone session and gained some added clarity about what happened then and why my cousin took space. I was able to take the blame off my husband and see that it was good of my cousin to not get involved in a messy situation. I also realized that every time my husband said he felt worried that my cousin didn't like him any more, it isn't up to me to fix their relationship. They got to know each other pretty well when she lived closer and had spoken independently of me. They have their own friendship. I don't want to be involved in relaying messages to my cousin about how H feels and then feeling like I'm trying to get her to do something she doesn't want to do... .that wouldn't be good for my relationship with her.

So I told H basically that I thought he should talk to her if he felt he needed to but that I didn't think she pulled away because of him, but because of the situation. He got upset and told me how I could have saved him a lot of trouble if I had told him this after I told him it was because of him. And I said I did talk to you about this months ago when I originally resolved it with her and told you it wasn't your fault. Then he stuck to the fact that I wasn't willing to talk to my cousin on his behalf and told me how much he disagreed and how he would do that for me if something happened with his family. I told him I discussed it in therapy and my therapist agreed it was best if he talked to cousin about his feelings so that I wasn't in the middle. He said he doesn't care what we decided that he didn't agree with it and then he just said he had to go and hung up.

He was having a rough week at work, which is why I offered to do a phone call in the first place on Friday, to help comfort him. I have really been working on empathy. I tried to express that I understood how he felt but I also had to sort of state a boundary and stick to it. I'm not sure what I should have done better because it's a sticky situation. He said he wanted some space Saturday because everything was irritating him, including me. And I gave him space. Eventually he just started texting me as if nothing was wrong. By yesterday, he was texting me how he misses me and wants to spend more time together when I get home. Then he talked about having adventures together because we never got to enjoy the honeymoon part of our relationship. I don't know where this is coming from. If it's from missing me or feeling like I've become a lot more independent since this is the first trip I've taken on my own and I'm not needy like I used to be. I actually enjoy traveling, whether he's there or not.

Now I don't know what to do about the disagreement we had. I'm also worried because before I left I told him I wanted more quality time together, not quantity and that I was going to be sure I took time to give myself space as a way to work on my own issues, and help make our rs better. I meant this, whole heartedly. I need evenings where I am just painting or reading on my own, or out with a friend on my own to take care of myself. Everything can't be about our relationship. I tried that, and the pit of despair waiting for me when things take a nose dive is too epic. I don't want to assume he's forgotten that but also don't want to assume he hasn't. Doing things together and having adventures sounds great but I know we can't pretend like this rs isn't a bit broken still. /end rant

Questions, comments, relephants, elephants?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Bloomer, whenever I have taken short trips, my H is very lovey dovey and romantic on the phone, but when I return, it's the same. I would bet that you will still have your space. I think, for me, this is built in. It was my H who always needed his space to pursue things that I am not interested in. He's not always thrilled when I do that, but I think we are better when we each do our own thing.

Your cousin was your cousin long before you were married, and you can still have a relationship with her, with or without your H. In fact, she may prefer it since she may not be comfortable after being around the argument. That's OK too. You don't have to have the same friends.

[Bloomer]

Thanks NotWendy. I think it might be the same where I return as well and have some anxiety about his current state of mind since he's been so stressed about work, and also admitted to drinking a lot last week. He did say he plans to not drink this week, so that's good.

I know we don't have to have the same friends and I'm fine with that. Unfortunately, he and my cousin did bond early on and he really likes having a relationship with her, because of who she is, what she means to me, and she's the only person in my family he has much in common with. So, this is really about his feelings in being afraid of losing someone and also feeling like I dangled that in front of his face and now I should want to "fix it".

[Notwendy]

I don't know the whole story, but it seems like a variation of how they handle feeling bad and embarrassed when they act out with us. They don't take responsibility for it, and they expect us to fix things by forgetting about it. Your H could speak to your cousin, but that would mean being responsible for his feeling awkward and wanting to do something about it himself... .but that would mean owning up to the part that is his doing.

His putting it on you to fix and bringing up why you should do it is externalizing behavior. If you fix it, he doesn't have to get into it.

[Bloomer]

The trip I referenced happened in May. He was aware that his behavior was out of control while we were on the trip. He apologized throughout the trip and after the trip to me directly. So, he did own that part of it. However, I think you're right that talking to my cousin would mean possibly having to hear how she feels about some of his behavior towards me, when he's already been rejected by many people for similar behavior, and sometimes it was someone who was never on the receiving end but they saw it happen to others. That being sad, I do understand why he wouldn't want to talk to her but he isn't saying that's the reason, so telling him would be invalidating.

He said he wants to talk about this in person once I am home and I would like to know that I'm handling this in the best way possible. How do I avoid getting in the middle (keep my boundary), empathize and validate his feelings appropriately and find a way to meet both of our needs?

[Notwendy]

As much as you don't want to fix his problems, one possibility is to step back and ask if he's done the best he can. This isn't an aquaintance, it's family, and someone he will have to face on numerous occasions. Sounds like he's embarrased possibly? It's pretty hard for them to own up to their behavior.

I'm probably not the best one to ask, being that I have the codependence "fixer" traits but in the context of family, I might err on the side of helping him reconcile. I woudn't lie about his behaviors nor would I want to be the go between, but I might ask my cousin what she wishes he'd do to make things better. She may just say "forget it- it's OK" and not hold it against him. However, she is aware of his behavioral issues, and she'll have to decide how she feels about that.

The  you would be able to return and say to him that you did a part in helping this.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm a little confused. Back to basics:

Q1: I think you are seeing this cousin and enjoying her company on this trip, right?

If not, fix that.

Q2: Did your H apologize to your cousin or reach out to her after the incident last time?

Q3: Has your cousin reached out to your H since that incident?

(I'm thinking the two aren't in contact now.)

Q4: Is there anything that seams pleasant or reasonable to you about being a mediator or go-between?


And proposal #1: Say to your cousin: "My H is getting wigged the ___ out about you/me/us, and trying to put me in the middle. I don't want to be there. Uhg. Please think about whether you want to work toward repairing your r/s with him, and give him a call if you do."

[Consider adding... .after I go back home]

Evaluate this and any other ideas based on answers to my questions... .

[Bloomer]

Q1: I think you are seeing this cousin and enjoying her company on this trip, right?

If not, fix that.

I am enjoying her company. Check!

Q2: Did your H apologize to your cousin or reach out to her after the incident last time?

He didn't apologize but he did reach out via email two or three times and she didn't respond to any of them. I didn't ask her about it. I don't know if she was just busy or conflicted.

Q3: Has your cousin reached out to your H since that incident? (I'm thinking the two aren't in contact now.)

No, she hasn't. However, we saw her briefly at Christmas and she was perfectly sweet and normal with him. So, technically they aren't in contact right now.

Q4: Is there anything that seams pleasant or reasonable to you about being a mediator or go-between?

Nope! But the part of me that gets upset when I have expectations of others and feels like they don't care about me when they don't meet them, wants to meet his needs to avoid hurting him.   

And proposal #1: Say to your cousin: "My H is getting wigged the ___ out about you/me/us, and trying to put me in the middle. I don't want to be there. Uhg. Please think about whether you want to work toward repairing your r/s with him, and give him a call if you do."

[Consider adding... .after I go back home]

Evaluate this and any other ideas based on answers to my questions... .

I always worry about my own ability to request reasonable things from others and so I have a lot of anxiety about placing any responsibility on cousin for this.

At this point I don't even know if he's still wigging out or if he feels better about things with cousin but is upset that I wouldn't *hypothetically* talk to her on his behalf. So I guess I will have to wait until I get home to find out what's going on in Pandora's Box and update you then.

If he is still feeling insecure I might consider talking to cousin about sending him a message as his friend if she still wants that but it mightn't be necessary. I think most likely from what he said previously that he is just upset that I wouldn't be willing to talk to her if the situation arose.

Confused yet? 

[Grey Kitty]

I think you are confusing yourself by trying to solve somebody else's problem.

#1: Your cousin doesn't seem to be upset about your H. [At least when he's not behaving badly at her]

No problem there. You don't have to do anything.

#2: Your H has (at some time) been upset about your cousin.

#2A: Your H asks you to intervene in some way.

My suggestion:

This is your H's problem. It is up to him to solve it. Validate that he sounds upset about your cousin next time that he does.

As somebody pointed out, the cool thing about validation is that it puts the responsibility exactly where it belongs. The upset is your H's issue. if you validate that he's feeling that way, it doesn't shift responsibility away from him.


Good to hear that the time with your cousin (and away from your H) is fun!

[Bloomer]

The problem is that I don't want to solve his problem.   I very nicely told him that, validated his feelings in a loving way, owned that when I originally told him cousin backed off because of him it was because I was upset and I blamed him at the time and apologized for saying it. I checked all the boxes and did it in a very caring way. It doesn't matter. He is mad at me for setting that boundary. What do I do when he tries talking me into seeing his point of view again? There's no meeting in the middle for him currently.

I'm seeing a lot of big red flag behaviors again from him. A lot of trying to force me to apologize or do X and I'm starting to want to run. I had almost 2 weeks of peace and now I'm just like, "what am I doing here again?" See my related post https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270620.0

[Grey Kitty]

It doesn't matter. He is mad at me for setting that boundary. What do I do when he tries talking me into seeing his point of view again? There's no meeting in the middle for him currently.

Look at why you enforce boundaries in the first place.

You enforce boundaries to protect yourself.

You may need to enforce another boundary--no more discussion about the one you already did enforce.


You don't enforce boundaries to make him happy.

You don't enforce boundaries to make him comply with your wishes.

You don't enforce boundaries to keep him from getting mad.


What happens if you let him be mad? (But don't let him take it out on you!)

[Bloomer]

You're so wise GK. I need to just toughen up and let him cry it out. I validated, I stated my boundary and that's as much as I can do there. I think you're onto something with the closing the conversation on this issue too. I don't want to end up in circular arguments with him. I don't want to go home any more... .