She's really self-aware.

[maxsterling]

Today she had a bad day.  Worried about money (again) about how inept she is, how she can't keep a job, how this is an ongoing problem, etc, spiral into the black hole.   She talked about how she is in pain, always was in pain, always will be in pain, and how doctors can't help. 

In other words, she's very aware that she is creates her own problems, is low-functioning, can't see the sunlight, feels hopeless, etc.  No blame pushed my direction (thank God).    A year ago, that is what I would have wanted to hear:  that the issues are hers and not mine, an apology, an attempt to make amends.  And she does that now. 

Yet, the black hole remains.  Question - how does she begin to feel good about herself again, that all hope is not lost?  And if she does, will she just switch back over to blaming me again?  I'm doing better at validating and helping her think positive.  But seems like it's not long before the gravity sucks her in again, and I feel like this is a hopeless cause. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

Max, I'm so sorry. You are so loving and patient with your wife. It sounds like you feel really defeated today. I'm glad she's not blaming you. Be careful of your boundaries. There's only so much you can do.  

[drummerboy]

This is exactly what I could not figure out about my ex, she was totally self aware, even had a degree in psychology. She knew that she continually self sabotaged her life, knew that she was totally self absorbed but never had whatever it takes to change paths. This was possibly the most frustrating part of the r/s. How could she be so self aware and yet do nothing about it? I think that as long as they have enablers around them there isn't much incentive to do anything. If only they could get away from their enablers!

Today she had a bad day.  Worried about money (again) about how inept she is, how she can't keep a job, how this is an ongoing problem, etc, spiral into the black hole.   She talked about how she is in pain, always was in pain, always will be in pain, and how doctors can't help. 

In other words, she's very aware that she is creates her own problems, is low-functioning, can't see the sunlight, feels hopeless, etc.  No blame pushed my direction (thank God).    A year ago, that is what I would have wanted to hear:  that the issues are hers and not mine, an apology, an attempt to make amends.  And she does that now. 

Yet, the black hole remains.  Question - how does she begin to feel good about herself again, that all hope is not lost?  And if she does, will she just switch back over to blaming me again?  I'm doing better at validating and helping her think positive.  But seems like it's not long before the gravity sucks her in again, and I feel like this is a hopeless cause. 

[SlyQQ]

Regardless of what you do or how you do it ( or what they do ) there will always be good and bad times with BPD

[maxsterling]

I think that as long as they have enablers around them there isn't much incentive to do anything. If only they could get away from their enablers!

Well, that is what my wife would probably claim.  But claiming that her behavior is being "enabled" is another way of passing blame.  I really don't think it is about enabling, because during the times of my wife's life that she had absolutely nobody, she still was quite low functioning and her behaviors even more self-destructive.  She lived in a foreign country for 4 years, and frankly I think the only way she managed day to day was thru bad behavior.  It's not like she was cooking for herself, cleaning her own house, or creating healthy relationships with others while overseas.  She did work more, but I get the feeling it was the same thing - a few months at some place before she quit or was fired and off to the new place.

[Notwendy]

I get the enabler part, but the enabler didn't create the dysfunction. It can make it worse.

One thing I noticed is that there seems to be an abundance of enablers around. My mom gets what she wants by behaving badly. It works really well. It worked to make her kids terrified of her and jumping to fulfil her every wish. It worked with my dad, because the only way he'd find a moment of peace was to give in to her- she'd be temporarily happy. It worked for my H, because I would do what he wanted to keep the peace.

My dad was the main enabler, but he's not here now, and my mom still has plenty of enablers. She has plenty of enabler friends and aquaintences. When she was younger, she was a beauty and there were plenty of men willing to do whatever she wanted for her. I always wondered what her secret was. That never worked for me. The problem is that I am an enabler and enabler men are not attracted to enabler women and vice versa, but enablers and PD's are like magnets.

My personal goal is to not be an enabler for me. I want to be an emotionally healthy person and I want to have healthy friendships. The outcome may be that my r/s with my H gets better once my enabling stops making it worse... .or that my H will find another enabler. However, regardless, if I am not an enabler, I will still be a better "me".

[Mike-X]

Great question Max. Do you know if she has identified the possible root causes of her sense of low  self-worth? If so, is she doing anything to fix the damage?

[maxsterling]

Shes in the dumps the past two days.  Doctors and friends and family are basically invalidating her, and she is questioning what is wrong with her.  Major shame here. 

Pain doctor basically told her to get a psychaitrist, saying that she has nothing seriously physically wrong and that her pain is due to her inability to handle stress.  I am sure he suspects that she is only trying to get narcotics.  He also referred her to a place to get an mri on her brain  .   Thats been the case lately, her complaining of severe pain, doctors running all kinds of tests and not finding anything major.  In the end, they try to talk to her about lifestyle and stress... .

Yesterday she found out a friend of hers is pregnant.  A few days prior she found out my sister in law is pregnant.  Now she is obsessing again, abd thus the downward spiral.  Doctors strongly warn her to not get pregnant because of her meds.  She then said she wants to quit taking all her meds cold turkey and get pregnant.  I told her no, not if she is having these panic attacks. 

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

My h has had two brain scans in the last ten years, as his short term memory is so impaired and there were also other issues. Combination of medication, stress and mental illness make for him pretty poor overall functioning. P wanted to check nothing else was going on. It is not unusual if someone is in and out of crises despite T and medication to check there are no underlying medical conditions.

My h went through a year of medicating his 'pain' used and abused lots of prescription and OTC codeine when he was seriously stressed. Eventually his P realised it was psychogenic pain caused by ongoing crises. H felt validated and heard by this feedback. After my h was hospitalised he stopped using painkillers and has not mentioned his pain for about the last nine months. No issues at the moment with abusing medication either which is positive for him.

I know you are looking for a P, a savvy one will recognise the issues that your w presents with as possibly psychogenic in origin and accept that the pain is real to her. Unfortunately not all doctors take the time to really listen and only hone in on potential 'drug seeking behaviours.'

I don't know what meds your w is on, but I know that I was reduced off my SSRI when I was planning my pregnancy. A close female friend of mine with unstable Bi-Polar was advised by her P not to have a family because of the risks to her mental health if she did. She took the decision not to have children as she felt the risks were just too many for her and a child.

A combination of medications and unstable BPD or any enduring mental illness are a very difficult situation to be faced with when considering starting a family. Your w's self-awareness about her illness must make her desire to have a child all the more poignant. No wonder she is down in the dumps, it must be hard on you too.

[ColdEthyl]

Shes in the dumps the past two days.  Doctors and friends and family are basically invalidating her, and she is questioning what is wrong with her.  Major shame here. 

Pain doctor basically told her to get a psychaitrist, saying that she has nothing seriously physically wrong and that her pain is due to her inability to handle stress.  I am sure he suspects that she is only trying to get narcotics.  He also referred her to a place to get an mri on her brain  .   Thats been the case lately, her complaining of severe pain, doctors running all kinds of tests and not finding anything major.  In the end, they try to talk to her about lifestyle and stress... .

Yesterday she found out a friend of hers is pregnant.  A few days prior she found out my sister in law is pregnant.  Now she is obsessing again, abd thus the downward spiral.  Doctors strongly warn her to not get pregnant because of her meds.  She then said she wants to quit taking all her meds cold turkey and get pregnant.  I told her no, not if she is having these panic attacks. 

I'm sorry, Max  /hug

My husband is self aware, since I've been on these boards... we have slowly been chipping away at the BPD. Expressing ourselves, talking about the issues... .but it's a long road. On his clearest days, he can admit his issues... .but the next day he will self-loathe once again.

I don't want to say there is 'no hope', but I think they will always have some BPD issues. He's got to battle the self-hate himself, and right now he can't because he wears it like armor.

[charred]

My exBPDgf was very self aware... and had an advanced degree in early childhood development. Little doubt the subject area interested her for deep personal reasons. My BPD r/s convinced of something... .understanding "WHY"... doesn't change the situation very much. I feel like I understand why I fell for her, what behavior lured me in, how the attachment became so strong, etc... but still the issues exist.

I have been motivated to understand how things work, and why people do the things they do for a long long time, and suspect it goes back to growing up in a family that was a bit dysfunctional, assuming I didn't understand what right thing was going on... .and believing somehow that if I can figure this out... it will all be better, or I will know how to fix it.

People vary a lot in how self-aware they are... but the happy ones typically are not the ones that are the smartest and understand the most, quite the opposite, they are the ones that are in the moment, happy to be with alive, and with friends and rolling along with whatever life throws their way.

[ColdEthyl]

My exBPDgf was very self aware... and had an advanced degree in early childhood development. Little doubt the subject area interested her for deep personal reasons. My BPD r/s convinced of something... .understanding "WHY"... doesn't change the situation very much. I feel like I understand why I fell for her, what behavior lured me in, how the attachment became so strong, etc... but still the issues exist.

I have been motivated to understand how things work, and why people do the things they do for a long long time, and suspect it goes back to growing up in a family that was a bit dysfunctional, assuming I didn't understand what right thing was going on... .and believing somehow that if I can figure this out... it will all be better, or I will know how to fix it.

People vary a lot in how self-aware they are... but the happy ones typically are not the ones that are the smartest and understand the most, quite the opposite, they are the ones that are in the moment, happy to be with alive, and with friends and rolling along with whatever life throws their way.

You just explained me to the tee. I am very self aware, very very interested in psychology and sociology because I come from dysfunction. I like knowing EVERYTHING about ANYTHING. It doesn't help me ... .I really agree with you that ignorance is bliss.

[SlyQQ]

Knowledge is power ignorance is bliss you choose

[maxsterling]

Was her life easier when she thought everyone else was the problem?  Is it worse now that she knows she ruins things, tries to get hep, but keeps in the same hole?   

I hypothesize that part of her issues now are that she is in a stable relationship with a patient and loving man, and all that does is highlight how much she has to overcome. 

[SlyQQ]

Perhaps it was unwise to qualify that statement about pregnency and panic attacks you have set yourself up ( or been set up ) if it was me ( and have unfortunately been there ) i would bite the bullet and ride it out the escapes ( pain killers or pregnency will end up making things worse ) tread very carefully

[hergestridge]

Did she really have such a bad day? If she was able to wisely self-reflect and not castl/inflict blame, then it seems to me her pain was not at its worst.

[formflier]

My exBPDgf was very self aware... and had an advanced degree in early childhood development.

My wife has similar degree... .is very high functioning... .and when she is having good days... is a wonderful teacher... .

She is very aware of others problems and issues... .and can point them out... .is very reluctant to look in mirror.

[maxsterling]

Today was bad.  Started last night.  Sister in law is early pregnancy, can't come to our wedding.  Good friend pregnant.  I saw the complete obsession, black hole spiral starting.  I knew me saying that she needs to get her mental health under control first would not help, BUT IT NEEDED TO BE SAID.  And this morning, the news that SIL is too high risk to travel, I felt quite sad and triggered because SIL's last child was born with health issues and died at 11 months.  Support for me?  Nope.  All about her and her wanting to be pregnant, wanting to stop her meds cold turkey, and of course in my sad mood had NO emotional capacity to empathize, validate, etc.  Thus the complete meltdown, the threats of divorce, the "I hate you's" etc.  Boundary?  I had committed to helping a mutual friend move today.  Yikes.  Got int he car, said I would not discuss this issue while driving.  She started screaming out of control, I did not feel safe, pulled over.  I told her I will not drive with her screaming at me.  Said we had to go help friend move, I reiterated this was a firm boundary.  Continued on, screaming resumed, I stopped again, got out of the car.  She continued, I said I was going to walk around a bit and take a breath.  I got back in the car, told her again that I would only continue if she would quit screaming and I would not continue the conversation on this subject.   So, we continued in silence, helped friend move.  Get to friend's house, and wife is talking about the wedding again  .  Finish helping friend, and off with friend to return Uhaul, and then to lunch with friend.  Wife then starts conversation again about how I don't want to have kids with her because she is too crazy, that I am controlling everything, about how she sees no reason to wait to have kids (she told me just yesterday she wanted to kill herself - if that is not a reason to wait, I don't know what else is!)  At that point I just had enough.  I told her that I am extremely stressed out right now, that i have never been more stressed in my whole life, that it is affecting me physically, and that something has to change because i can't keep going on like this.  I told her it is not about money or her getting a job, but both of those would help some with the stress.  I told her I frequently have nightmares about her hurting or killing herself, can't make them stop, have visions of her hurting herself when I am awake, and the stress is starting to overwhelm me.  Again she tried to push this back on me, telling me i am controlling her, basically invalidating my feelings, telling me I am trying to force her to do this or that.  I expressed again that I need to take care of myself, and that all I know is that I am really stressed out, am not functioning well, and that all I know is that something has to change and that I don't know what the answer is.  Lunch she held my hand, and later in the day expressed to me that we are in this together and that she will work to help out with my stress level.

And right now?  Things okay, but when I expressed desire to work on my resume tonight, she felt abandonment and encouraged me to do something with her. 

So in two days we went from extreme self-awareness that she has huge issues that could possibly get in the way of her being a mother, to complete no-awareness and blaming me.  I'm exhausted.

[formflier]

Got int he car, said I would not discuss this issue while driving.  She started screaming out of control, I did not feel safe, pulled over.  I told her I will not drive with her screaming at me.  Said we had to go help friend move, I reiterated this was a firm boundary.  Continued on, screaming resumed, I stopped again, got out of the car.  She continued, I said I was going to walk around a bit and take a breath.  I got back in the car, told her again that I would only continue if she would quit screaming and I would not continue the conversation on this subject.   So, we continued in silence, helped friend move.  Get to friend's house, and wife is talking about the wedding again  .  

Had you ever done this before... .actually got out of car?  In the past I have had to do this... .she was pissed... .and tried it a few more times... .but eventually got message... and I am relatively immune from the in car issues.

Boundaries do work... .

I'm debating new ones in another thread... .

Congrats on doing this... .I'm sorry you had to... .but it seems to have worked for you...

[SlyQQ]

from here this is all about your gf getting pregnent nor will it go away an also if your gf gets pregnent it is fraught with peril do you have a plan or any idea what you are going to do?

[maxsterling]

You know FF, it helps to hear that you have gone though this, too.   Before I came to this site, I thought my experiences were more unique.  Helps to hear I am not alone.

To answer your question:  I think I turned around on a walk, once.  In the car? I don't think I ever pulled over to get out.   She tried to jump out while I was driving once.  And once she was driving and pulled over and got out.  It really wasn't much of a decision for me - I had not choice.  No way I could drive with that going on. 

[maxsterling]

from here this is all about your gf getting pregnent nor will it go away

an also if your gf gets pregnent  it is fraught with peril do you have a plan or any

idea what you are going to do?

SlyQQ - right now getting pregnant is not much of a biological option.  I haven't really been to "functional" in that area for a few months - stress of the emotional roller coaster and things just aren't working very well   It's almost as if my body won't let me... .

[formflier]

You know FF, it helps to hear that you have gone though this, too.   Before I came to this site, I thought my experiences were more unique.  Helps to hear I am not alone.

To answer your question:  I think I turned around on a walk, once.  In the car? I don't think I ever pulled over to get out.   She tried to jump out while I was driving once.  And once she was driving and pulled over and got out.  It really wasn't much of a decision for me - I had not choice.  No way I could drive with that going on. 

I recommend being the one to drive... .

That way you control when you pull over.

[SlyQQ]

your body might be very wise would this also be triggering abandoment issues ?

[maxsterling]

your body might be very wise would this also be triggering

abandoment issues ?

Possibly.  But when it don't work, it don't work.  Not much I can do about it?

[SlyQQ]

its always good to focus on what the real issues are especially with BPD it is easy to lose sight of what is really causing the problems and before you know what happens you dont know what happened

[Mike-X]

That was an extreme roller coaster ride over a couple days. Good for you for trying to stay centered and managing to depersonalize so much that was being said.

Lunch she held my hand, and later in the day expressed to me that we are in this together and that she will work to help out with my stress level.

So in two days we went from extreme self-awareness that she has huge issues that could possibly get in the way of her being a mother, to complete no-awareness and blaming me.  I'm exhausted.

She certainly seems to have shown moments of self-awareness and desire to change. Nice that she held your hand and said that you were in it together.

I remember getting indirect acknowledgement of my gf having issues, indirect apologies, and indirect efforts to work on the relationship. I remember asking her explicitly for validation one time, just to acknowledge that my feelings differed from hers but that my feelings were genuine to me like hers were to her, and she refused just saying that she "couldn't do that." She wouldn't provide any elaboration. She also said one time that "some people show that they are sorry by being quiet", which I took as a form of apology. And I know that she tended to do things for me after raging and such, like ironing my clothes the next day or making a nice dinner, but an explicit apology or discussion never came with any of that.