I've been conducting an experiment... has anyone tried this?

[ColdEthyl]

I do not know if anyone else has tried this... .but for the passed month or so, when I react badly to something, I've been saying to my husband I was wrong and I was wrong because I acted on a feeling... .and feelings are not always facts.

For instance, I got upset one day because I was eating some ice cream and he called me stingy because I wasn't sharing. He doesn't like ice cream. I offered him a bite and he didn't want it. I said something about him calling me stingy and it hurt my feelings and he said "hey hey! I was just kidding! You are the most unselfish person I know!"

I told him then I apologize for getting upset. I was not angry at his joke... .I was angry at feelings that were not true. He wasn't saying to me "you are stingy" which is how I felt.

Anytime I catch myself being triggered... .I have thrown in there feelings are not always fact. I have not accused him or told him does it. I just announce from time to time feelings are not fact.

What has been happening is he doesn't really say anything about it at all. But the other day when he was in a big ol' rager... .he said over and over and over again "My feelings are my reality! My feelings are my reality! You don't understand!"

At this particular time... .I did not say anything about feelings not being fact... .so I think I got that thought tumbling around in there. When he said that during his rage, I calmly stated that I understood that his feeling feel like fact for him, and that must suck for him.

Has anyone else tried to do this? I apply it to myself to see if I can get that stuff to 'mirror' for him. Is this not a good idea? Thoughts?

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[Jessica84]

Mine likes to quote famous people. He likes John Adams: "Facts are stubborn things." Like it's a FACT that he is no good. FACT that I'm too good for him... blah blah...

One time when he used this quote, I said something like "not always. Feelings sometimes change facts or how we see them." He's very intellectual so I'm hoping it seeped into his subconscious somewhere.

Good luck on your experiment and let us know how it's working 

[waverider]

I have been doing similar, we have already had plenty of discussions on how feelings are real and not to be dismissed. They are based on an individuals interpretation of the facts, however that interpretation may not be fact, but the feeling is still there regardless.

The "feelings are not always fact" is a statement that we both use, but I avoid it at triggered moments.

I also demonstrate that this is true for everyone, ie I do it too, it is not only a BPD thing, but simply an aspect they struggle with more often.

In fact I often point out that many of the BPD issues are simple extreme entrenched "normal" reactions. Not everything is unique to BPD. That way learning to cope better is not seen as being unachievable.

Sometimes our executive mind takes a while to kick in and tell our emotive mind that the fear/feeling is not as warrantied as our knee jerk instinct tells us. With pwBPD this lag is just bigger, to the point of failure at times.

[Jessica84]

I've also pitched a clouds analogy to him, when he was at one of his lowest points in depression and suicidal.

Along the lines of "this too shall pass" it goes like this:

Feelings are like clouds. If you look up at the sky at one point the clouds will have changed the next time you look. Some are slow-moving, some are fast-moving, some are white, some are dark and filled with rain. But clouds are always changing and moving across the sky. Our feelings are no more fixed than a cloud. It is the one constant in life - that things change, and feelings change with them. I told him While you may feel very dark and filled with rain in this moment, do not believe that you will always feel that way. Likewise, when you feel light and full of sunshine, do not expect to always feel that way. Sometimes, a cloud is just a cloud. Content to be neither full of rain or sun, just merrily floating thru the sky.

I doubt this had any real effect, but he is trying to be more "go with the flow", as much as he can be. I'll give him that. Sadly he believes if life isn't intensely exciting, then it's hopelessly depressing.

[EaglesJuju]

I have said "feelings are not facts" to my bf quite often. He seems to respond well to it.  In fact, he has used the same line on me before.   I agree that using the line during certain moments of dysregulation has not fared well. 

I have been doing similar, we have already had plenty of discussions on how feelings are real and not to be dismissed. They are based on an individuals interpretation of the facts, however that interpretation may not be fact, but the feeling is still there regardless.

The "feelings are not always fact" is a statement that we both use, but I avoid it at triggered moments.

I also demonstrate that this is true for everyone, ie I do it too, it is not only a BPD thing, but simply an aspect they struggle with more often.

In fact I often point out that many of the BPD issues are simple extreme entrenched "normal" reactions. Not everything is unique to BPD. That way learning to cope better is not seen as being unachievable.

Sometimes our executive mind takes a while to kick in and tell our emotive mind that the fear/feeling is not as warrantied as our knee jerk instinct tells us. With pwBPD this lag is just bigger, to the point of failure at times.

This is absolutely well stated.   

[ColdEthyl]

*nods* thank you for the replies, everyone. Waverider, I too have noticed that I also get triggered from emotions, it's just that his trigger is on a shorter leash, and it's more vibrant than my reaction. I can understand fighting knee jerk reactions... .I'm learning to do that myself.

I do think it's making him think. I'm not accusing or blaming him in any way. I might try to add new hidden "lessons" here and there.

I have learned a lot about myself while doing research for BPD. We all have the same feelings, the same reactions to triggers, the same fears... .it's just magnified for them.

[Cat Familiar]

I like this a lot, Ethyl. I'm almost tempted to pretend my feelings are triggered, just so I can try it out. My one concern is to be able to state it in a way that flows and doesn't sound stilted, so it actually might be easier to do when I'm not upset.

[ColdEthyl]

I like this a lot, Ethyl. I'm almost tempted to pretend my feelings are triggered, just so I can try it out. My one concern is to be able to state it in a way that flows and doesn't sound stilted, so it actually might be easier to do when I'm not upset.

Exactly. I do this when I am not upset. It's over small things. In a rage or a fight... .no. I do not try this.

[Bloomer]

I've been trying this recently because H will hear something completely different than what I have expressed and I will say that isn't what I said though I understand that you may have interpreted it that way. That's not reality and this is what I did say. I am sure someone will correct me for this but it worked to some extent. I didn't tell him his feelings were wrong, I told him his interpretation of what I said (causing his feelings to be hurt) were wrong.

As far as admitting when I am wrong based on a trigger, I do but I don't phrase it the same way. I'm very aware of it as I have been doing some CBT work myself and it focuses a lot on "what you think is what you feel" but not necessarily reality.

[Grey Kitty]

First, I think that modeling good behavior recoveries from bad behavior is a good thing, as long as you are scrupulous about keeping it on yourself. (Not as a pointed example of what they didn't do!)

The other way I look at this is to not take it personally. In this case, accept that his statement about you being stingy, you took it to heart and believed it.

Looking at it that way is another way to better manage how you deal with feelings and situations like that.

I said something about him calling me stingy and it hurt my feelings and he said "hey hey! I was just kidding! You are the most unselfish person I know!"

Aside: Did you notice that instead of an apology, he put another dose of invalidation of your feelings on top of the original comment?

Sigh.

Sometimes you really do have to work hard to be strong in situations like that.

[ColdEthyl]

First, I think that modeling good behavior recoveries from bad behavior is a good thing, as long as you are scrupulous about keeping it on yourself. (Not as a pointed example of what they didn't do!)

The other way I look at this is to not take it personally. In this case, accept that his statement about you being stingy, you took it to heart and believed it.

Looking at it that way is another way to better manage how you deal with feelings and situations like that.

I said something about him calling me stingy and it hurt my feelings and he said "hey hey! I was just kidding! You are the most unselfish person I know!"

Aside: Did you notice that instead of an apology, he put another dose of invalidation of your feelings on top of the original comment?

Sigh.

Sometimes you really do have to work hard to be strong in situations like that.

Oh I noticed it... .and felt it. Knowing where it was coming from is not always helpful when your feelings are flooding. It's not uncommon for him to claim he's all of a sudden joking, and certainly isn't uncommon for him to not apologize.

In situations like this... .it takes all I have to not run out of the house primal screaming into the air at God and anyone else who can hear me.

[Grey Kitty]

Oh I noticed it... .and felt it. Knowing where it was coming from is not always helpful when your feelings are flooding. It's not uncommon for him to claim he's all of a sudden joking, and certainly isn't uncommon for him to not apologize.

In situations like this... .it takes all I have to not run out of the house primal screaming into the air at God and anyone else who can hear me.

You know, that option isn't all that bad! Soo much better than JADEing! Bonus points if you get out of earshot before the primal scream starts

[waverider]

I've been trying this recently because H will hear something completely different than what I have expressed and I will say that isn't what I said though I understand that you may have interpreted it that way. That's not reality and this is what I did say. I am sure someone will correct me for this but it worked to some extent. I didn't tell him his feelings were wrong, I told him his interpretation of what I said (causing his feelings to be hurt) were wrong.

As far as admitting when I am wrong based on a trigger, I do but I don't phrase it the same way. I'm very aware of it as I have been doing some CBT work myself and it focuses a lot on "what you think is what you feel" but not necessarily reality.

Be careful with defining reality, his and yours are different. I get what you are saying it is about interpretation. You can restated what you said (as you did) and expand on your intention. Or you can ask him to repeat what he thinks you said. That way you can clear up the interpretation. Flat out stating that is not reality could be interpreted as a blatent your are wrong/lying>triggering invalidation

Just nit picking, otherwise

[Cat Familiar]

Oh I noticed it... .and felt it. Knowing where it was coming from is not always helpful when your feelings are flooding. It's not uncommon for him to claim he's all of a sudden joking, and certainly isn't uncommon for him to not apologize.

In situations like this... .it takes all I have to not run out of the house primal screaming into the air at God and anyone else who can hear me.

Isn't that just like a pwBPD to not apologize and claim that it was meant as a "joke"? And you know how they'd react if we tried that strategy!

[cloudten]

Isn't that just like a pwBPD to not apologize and claim that it was meant as a "joke"? And you know how they'd react if we tried that strategy!

WOW Yes! He is always "joking"... .in incredibly hurtful ways. especially in text messages which gives no tone of voice. He has sent me "jokes" that literally make me cry. Unfortunately, I am a natural smart a$$, so I can be brutal when provoked. So in that way, we can both be juvenile. Its a power struggle at times.

[ColdEthyl]

Oh I noticed it... .and felt it. Knowing where it was coming from is not always helpful when your feelings are flooding. It's not uncommon for him to claim he's all of a sudden joking, and certainly isn't uncommon for him to not apologize.

In situations like this... .it takes all I have to not run out of the house primal screaming into the air at God and anyone else who can hear me.

Isn't that just like a pwBPD to not apologize and claim that it was meant as a "joke"? And you know how they'd react if we tried that strategy!

They would be flipping tables, CF. Flipping. Tables.

[maxsterling]

Interesting here... .

I called the police on my wife the other night.  I was not in danger, because I was out of the house.  I only knew she was acting violently, so I sent police to do a welfare check.  My feeling?  I was scared she would hurt herself or the pets.  Violence is a line I won't approach.  Her view - I sent the police to "control" her. 

I think she wants me to apologize for this action.  We have MC tomorrow, and I was thinking of ways to communicate this to her.  This approach may work.  "I was extremely scared by the violence and threats of violence.  I was scared for your safety, and I let that control my judgment.  I didn't know exactly what was going on, but I had a terrible fear, and I acted on my emotion and not on the facts."

thoughts?

[Jessica84]

Oh I noticed it... .and felt it. Knowing where it was coming from is not always helpful when your feelings are flooding. It's not uncommon for him to claim he's all of a sudden joking, and certainly isn't uncommon for him to not apologize.

In situations like this... .it takes all I have to not run out of the house primal screaming into the air at God and anyone else who can hear me.

Isn't that just like a pwBPD to not apologize and claim that it was meant as a "joke"? And you know how they'd react if we tried that strategy!

They would be flipping tables, CF. Flipping. Tables.

Flipping tables is right. Or being told "you have zero sense of humor".  

[Grey Kitty]

I called the police on my wife the other night.  I was not in danger, because I was out of the house.  I only knew she was acting violently, so I sent police to do a welfare check. ... .I think she wants me to apologize for this action.  We have MC tomorrow, and I was thinking of ways to communicate this to her.

My suggestion: You have nothing to apologize for. You had a concern, and you acted on it. Further, I don't believe that you regret your action.

So validate how she feels about it, if you can.

Don't give any insincere apologies.

Whatever you do, don't JADE. She doesn't want to know WHY you did this, so any explanation would be horribly invalidating.

If you haven't said a word about it to her yet, you could say once "I was concerned for your welfare at the time, and chose to ask the police to make sure you were OK." It may help her to understand that you felt that way. It may not. If you keep talking, you will JADE all over the place, I guarantee it!

[ColdEthyl]

Interesting here... .

I called the police on my wife the other night.  I was not in danger, because I was out of the house.  I only knew she was acting violently, so I sent police to do a welfare check.  My feeling?  I was scared she would hurt herself or the pets.  Violence is a line I won't approach.  Her view - I sent the police to "control" her. 

I think she wants me to apologize for this action.  We have MC tomorrow, and I was thinking of ways to communicate this to her.  This approach may work.  "I was extremely scared by the violence and threats of violence.  I was scared for your safety, and I let that control my judgment.  I didn't know exactly what was going on, but I had a terrible fear, and I acted on my emotion and not on the facts."

thoughts?

I echo what GK said. It's a tricky thing... .validating their feelings without agreeing with them.

If she's angry, say something like... .

"I was scared about the violence. I love you and care about you and I was afraid you might get hurt."

This is not apologizing, not giving credit to her anger. But, it does remind her you love her, and using "I" statements puts it on you and not her.

Do. Not. JADE.

[waverider]

Agree with the others Max. This is simply a boundary, if there is violence or threats of violence you will call the police... End of explanation. Action is her choice, hence consequence is due to here choice.

You dont have to sell her your boundaries, just demonstrate them. We get into trouble by trying too hard to get others to agree with our boundaries.

[waverider]

Isn't that just like a pwBPD to not apologize and claim that it was meant as a "joke"? And you know how they'd react if we tried that strategy!

It wasn't a joke at the time, but they have rewritten the story to suit what they believe sounds better now. They also believe it now, then might not tomorrow. It is just another example of constant rewriting things in the retelling.

It is at the core of BPD inconsistency. They don't know their own reality as it shifts according to the moment.

[Crumbling]

It is just another example of constant rewriting things in the retelling.

It is at the core of BPD inconsistency. They don't know their own reality as it shifts according to the moment.

I can see someone living this way really having issues with insecurities and confusion.  Like standing on a pile of sand that is ever moving, every changing. 

I've seen this shift in my BPDh.  One minute it's A and the next it's, yeah, that's what I meant, B... .

As for your experiment, good idea!  Something I will put some consideration into, and may try at the right time.  It's interesting how what works on a regular day doesn't always work under out of control circumstances.

'Jokes', yep, my guy does this too!  My response typically has been to just say, well if it is a joke it's at my expense and I don't think it's funny. 

I'm trying to stay alert for things that are simply ego-boosting techniques in his behaviours.  Could this have been his motivation, to pump himself up in some way?

Thanks so much for the insightful discussion!

c.

[Grey Kitty]

'Jokes', yep, my guy does this too!  My response typically has been to just say, well if it is a joke it's at my expense and I don't think it's funny. 

That kind of thing didn't work very well with my wife... .when I called her on invalidation, she tended to double down on it, and say another invalidating thing, which just riled me up/hurt me more.

When I gave up on that, sometimes I responding with "F*ck you." or "F*ck you too." Not said with a lot of feeling or anger, almost deadpan. It actually worked--at least a little better. It was a very succinct way of saying "What you said was rude and cruel, and I didn't like it, and I'm not going to waste any more time trying to convince you of that."

I'm not recommending it for wider use--different people have different levels of tolerance for language and directness, and this kinda worked with me and my wife.

[Crumbling]

Yep, done this too.  It usually comes out in a way that it's obvious that it's my last stand so to speak.  Oh yea, well then, okay, so just, you know, f off then... .something like that.  You're right, it's totally a personal thing, but sometimes you just need to say enough is enough in a way they understand.

[Cat Familiar]

It is just another example of constant rewriting things in the retelling.

It is at the core of BPD inconsistency. They don't know their own reality as it shifts according to the moment.

I can see someone living this way really having issues with insecurities and confusion.  Like standing on a pile of sand that is ever moving, every changing. 

I've seen this shift in my BPDh.  One minute it's A and the next it's, yeah, that's what I meant, B... .

I'm trying to stay alert for things that are simply ego-boosting techniques in his behaviours.  Could this have been his motivation, to pump himself up in some way?

I'm trying to really sit with this concept to understand it. Thank you both Waverider and Crumbling for your explanations. I see this shifting in my husband and I thought it was a polarity response--like if I agreed with him, he'd take the opposite side. But I think it's a bit more complex than that. As opposed to the black and white thinking that they do, it's almost like a willingness to entertain more complex thoughts, but not simultaneously. It's A, no it's B, no it's C... .

[ColdEthyl]

It is just another example of constant rewriting things in the retelling.

It is at the core of BPD inconsistency. They don't know their own reality as it shifts according to the moment.

I can see someone living this way really having issues with insecurities and confusion.  Like standing on a pile of sand that is ever moving, every changing. 

I've seen this shift in my BPDh.  One minute it's A and the next it's, yeah, that's what I meant, B... .

I'm trying to stay alert for things that are simply ego-boosting techniques in his behaviours.  Could this have been his motivation, to pump himself up in some way?

I'm trying to really sit with this concept to understand it. Thank you both Waverider and Crumbling for your explanations. I see this shifting in my husband and I thought it was a polarity response--like if I agreed with him, he'd take the opposite side. But I think it's a bit more complex than that. As opposed to the black and white thinking that they do, it's almost like a willingness to entertain more complex thoughts, but not simultaneously. It's A, no it's B, no it's C... .

Yep I've seen that in mine, too. He's constantly looking for validation of his thoughts, even matters of opinion. That makes it tough... .when I don't agree, I generally just don't say anything and just nod. Sometimes, he will repeat himself, re-laugh at his own joke, until he gets a reaction from me he's expecting.

It's pretty sad, really. He tries soo hard... .too hard sometimes.

[Cat Familiar]

Yep I've seen that in mine, too. He's constantly looking for validation of his thoughts, even matters of opinion. That makes it tough... .when I don't agree, I generally just don't say anything and just nod. Sometimes, he will repeat himself, re-laugh at his own joke, until he gets a reaction from me he's expecting.

It's pretty sad, really. He tries soo hard... .too hard sometimes.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean about the trying too hard.

My husband asked me to read an email he was planning to send to his sisters about financial matters that they all share. I tried to tell him that there was so much over-politeness that it was coming across as wishy-washy and obsequious. He complains about them taking him for granted and not respecting him. So I edited his email to get rid of the servile tone. I knew that doing that was going to bite me in the butt, but I really wanted to help him. After about an hour, his sense of being offended gradually was replaced with understanding and actually I got a tiny bit of appreciation, but still he was offended that I didn't wholeheartedly support his initial effort.  

[waverider]

Serial analyzing doesn't help. By this I mean a tendency to not weigh up pros and cons simultaneously and reaching best compromise decisions which they can stick to. Instead you get a pro thought>definate yes decision, think of con>definite no decision>another pro though>back to yes decision, and so on.

The result is rapidly fluctuating stance changing. Has the same result as procrastinating, except it keeps sending mixed messages and drives everyone else nuts.