The two faces of my ex

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

8 year r/s; 6 months post b/u; 4 month n/c. My exBPDgf was a waif; no verbal abuse or rages.  (Lots of other signs though; black and white thinking, gaslighting, "feelings are facts," impulsive, etc. etc.)

She comes across to everyone she meets as a sweet, likable, gentle, funny soul.  Loves puppies and babies; gets along very well with everyone she works with; overall seems like a nice person.  I'm sure that people would be stunned to learn about the things she did while in our r/s (chronic lying and repeated infidelities - even when seeing a therapist, even when professing to love me.  Ultimately blamed her behavior on the fact that I was "mean" and "controlling".

Anyway, as I was thinking today I realized that I've always held the following assumptions:

• A person whom I consider to be "nice" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "niceness" - in other words, their actions towards people are kind and respectful.



• A person whom I consider to be "mean" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "meanness" - in other words, their actions towards people are hurtful and disrespectful.

One of the most difficult things for me to reconcile has been the following truth about my ex:

• A person whom I considered to be "nice" generally engaged in behaviors that reflected "meanness" -  in other words, her hurtful and disrespectful actions were not aligned with her "niceness."

The difficulty in reconciling this contradictory reality kept me in the FOG for years. I couldn't hold onto these two faces of my ex at the same time - I would swing between focusing on the nice personality or the mean behavior.  While I understand that EVERYONE is capable of being "nice" or "mean" at times, the extremes in my ex were mind boggling to me.

Today I'm trying to hold the totality of who she was in my mind.  At the same time. Without focusing one one at the exclusion of the other.  Because when I focus on the "nice" I miss her, and when I focus on the "mean" I'm angry as hell. 

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?  I feel like it's one of the keys to finally and completely letting go.

[jhkbuzz]

8 year r/s; 6 months post b/u; 4 month n/c. My exBPDgf was a waif; no verbal abuse or rages.  (Lots of other signs though; black and white thinking, gaslighting, "feelings are facts," impulsive, etc. etc.)

She comes across to everyone she meets as a sweet, likable, gentle, funny soul.  Loves puppies and babies; gets along very well with everyone she works with; overall seems like a nice person.  I'm sure that people would be stunned to learn about the things she did while in our r/s (chronic lying and repeated infidelities - even when seeing a therapist, even when professing to love me.  Ultimately blamed her behavior on the fact that I was "mean" and "controlling".

Anyway, as I was thinking today I realized that I've always held the following assumptions:

• A person whom I consider to be "nice" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "niceness" - in other words, their actions towards people are kind and respectful.



• A person whom I consider to be "mean" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "meanness" - in other words, their actions towards people are hurtful and disrespectful.

One of the most difficult things for me to reconcile has been the following truth about my ex:

• A person whom I considered to be "nice" generally engaged in behaviors that reflected "meanness" -  in other words, her hurtful and disrespectful actions were not aligned with her "niceness."

The difficulty in reconciling this contradictory reality kept me in the FOG for years. I couldn't hold onto these two faces of my ex at the same time - I would swing between focusing on the nice personality or the mean behavior.  While I understand that EVERYONE is capable of being "nice" or "mean" at times, the extremes in my ex were mind boggling to me.

Today I'm trying to hold the totality of who she was in my mind.  At the same time. Without focusing one one at the exclusion of the other.  Because when I focus on the "nice" I miss her, and when I focus on the "mean" I'm angry as hell. 

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?  I feel like it's one of the keys to finally and completely letting go.

[fromheeltoheal]

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?

Yes, because I realized one was real and one was fake.  She put forth a facade to the world, because she wanted to portray herself in a certain way and wanted to be liked, and mostly wanted to attach, so she was extremely good at being who she needed to be to be attractive to whomever she was with, which also made her seem like an entirely different person in different contexts.  But in private and given time, she let the facade down and showed who she really was: a scared little girl in pain, but also with a strong desire to be loved, something that seemed perpetually unattainable to her.  We all do that to some extent BTW, paint a facade and show up as who we want to be perceived as, it just gets taken to the extreme by someone who lacks a stable sense of self and is in pain.

[jhkbuzz]

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?

Yes, because I realized one was real and one was fake.  She put forth a facade to the world, because she wanted to portray herself in a certain way and wanted to be liked, and mostly wanted to attach, so she was extremely good at being who she needed to be to be attractive to whomever she was with, which also made her seem like an entirely different person in different contexts.  But in private and given time, she let the facade down and showed who she really was: a scared little girl in pain, but also with a strong desire to be loved, something that seemed perpetually unattainable to her.  We all do that to some extent BTW, paint a facade and show up as who we want to be perceived as, it just gets taken to the extreme by someone who lacks a stable sense of self and is in pain.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm having difficulty with the first sentence.  The "mean" was "real"?  The "nice" was "fake"?

[jhkbuzz]

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?

But in private and given time, she let the facade down and showed who she really was: a scared little girl in pain, but also with a strong desire to be loved, something that seemed perpetually unattainable to her. 

And that ^^^ just made me feel really sad for her. Which scares me, because excessive sympathy is what kept me attached for so long.

[HappyNihilist]

One thing that helped me was accepting the overall fact that nice =/= good.

Niceness is a way of dealing with the world. As Gavin de Becker said in his excellent book, The Gift of Fear--

We must learn and then teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness. Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait. People seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning.

Or, as C.S. Lewis said, "Everyone feels benevolent if nothing happens to be annoying him at the moment."

[cosmonaut]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm having difficulty with the first sentence.  The "mean" was "real"?  The "nice" was "fake"?

They were both real at the time.  Remember, feelings are facts.  You can be loved up to the sky one day and hated like the devil the next.  These parts of her are both real.  She is an underdeveloped self - she has no solid ground on which to build a lasting persona.

[fromheeltoheal]

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?

Yes, because I realized one was real and one was fake.  She put forth a facade to the world, because she wanted to portray herself in a certain way and wanted to be liked, and mostly wanted to attach, so she was extremely good at being who she needed to be to be attractive to whomever she was with, which also made her seem like an entirely different person in different contexts.  But in private and given time, she let the facade down and showed who she really was: a scared little girl in pain, but also with a strong desire to be loved, something that seemed perpetually unattainable to her.  We all do that to some extent BTW, paint a facade and show up as who we want to be perceived as, it just gets taken to the extreme by someone who lacks a stable sense of self and is in pain, she wouldn't let me in.  

I understand what you're saying, but I'm having difficulty with the first sentence.  The "mean" was "real"?  The "nice" was "fake"?

She was capable of being both mean and nice depending on how she was feeling, but the thing that was obvious was if she was being real or fake; with other people she didn't know well she was always fake, and usually nice, although she was so good at it, it was hard to tell unless you knew her well.  We all do that to some extent.  But the biggie for me was when she was being real it became clear she's a very unhappy person, spiteful and bitter, and also emotionally distant, she ain't lettin' nobody in and there's no soothing going on.  Probably the main reason I left, all the abuse and disrespect notwithstanding.

[Copperfox]

There have been suggestions in the psychological literature that BPD bears some relationship to multiple personality disorder.  As such, assimilating the contradictory extremes may be somewhat of a futile effort. Maybe there's something real underneath, like FHTH suggests, maybe not.  She will always remain a mystery to me, I think.

You can't make sense of the senseless.

[mywifecrazy]

JHKBUZZ, you and I went through the same trials as my uBPDxw was a waif/hermit too. Word for word your post is my story.

I've been able to come to grips with it and move forward with the knowledge that she IS mentally sick and the understanding that her chameleon like ways are a product of her illness. She's not that way by choice. Only by looking at her through that Lenze am I able to deal with my time with her as a husband and my dealings with her in co-parenting. It's not easy at times as she does things that hurt our sons. If I try to process her actions as coming from someone who is NOT sick I personalize her actions and get angry. Again easier said than done at times!

MWC... .

[jhkbuzz]

She was capable of being both mean and nice depending on how she was feeling, but the thing that was obvious was if she was being real or fake; with other people she didn't know well she was always fake, and usually nice, although she was so good at it, it was hard to tell unless you knew her well.  We all do that to some extent.  But the biggie for me was when she was being real it became clear she's a very unhappy person, spiteful and bitter, and also emotionally distant, she ain't lettin' nobody in and there's no soothing going on.  Probably the main reason I left, all the abuse and disrespect notwithstanding.

Wow, I need to think on this for a while... .

[raisins3142]

I agree with the fake thing.

When mine met someone new, was out in public, or wanting to make a good impression... .she would use a lot of energy to be over the top nice and outgoing.  Very fake.

And her fakeness came off as sassy/flirty and being over the top nice and engaging is kind of how many people flirt, so she was always giving off the impression to me and others and is probably why she had so many guy "friends" and did not get along well with other women (women don't like other women that act like that, really trying hard to super engage and be nice to their SO or every guy around).

It was very hurtful to me.

She had no idea how she came off and to her was just being nice and polite.  But I had multiple men hit on her hard in front of me, do things like pick her up and swing her around, and approach me to ask if we were swingers.  

Supposedly she was clueless.  Still not sure, I'll never know.

One of the first weird things she did was the first night she met a friend of mine.  She wanted to show him a picture on her phone, so she sat right next to him (thighs touching) and leaned up against his chest/shoulder in a snuggling type of way to show him.  I'm standing back like "who does that when they first meet a man and in front of their boyfriend? you don't need to be that close to show someone a pic on your phone."

Bizarre woman.  Shoulda ran until I hit an ocean right then.  And in the past I would have.

When she was being real, she was usually sullen and withdrawn.  Too much energy to be fake all the time.

[jhkbuzz]

There have been suggestions in the psychological literature that BPD bears some relationship to multiple personality disorder.  As such, assimilating the contradictory extremes may be somewhat of a futile effort. Maybe there's something real underneath, like FHTH suggests, maybe not.  She will always remain a mystery to me, I think.

You can't make sense of the senseless.

Yes... .I actually thought for several months that she had DID... .but there was no memory loss - and then I stumbled upon Jeffrey Young's Schema Therapy and the pieces started to fall into place.  Indeed, my therapist told me that trained professionals often have to be careful not to diagnose DID when, in actuality, the patient is suffering from BPD.

Part of the process of letting go is making sense of what I can... .I'm examining my core beliefs at this point (nice people do nice things, mean people do mean things) - so I'm actually focusing on (and challenging) my own beliefs - the beliefs that kept me in the chaos for too long.

[jhkbuzz]

One thing that helped me was accepting the overall fact that nice =/= good.

Niceness is a way of dealing with the world. As Gavin de Becker said in his excellent book, The Gift of Fear--

We must learn and then teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness. Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait. People seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning.

Or, as C.S. Lewis said, "Everyone feels benevolent if nothing happens to be annoying him at the moment."

This is helpful - thank you.  I may look up that author!

[jhkbuzz]

One thing that helped me was accepting the overall fact that nice =/= good.

Niceness is a way of dealing with the world. As Gavin de Becker said in his excellent book, The Gift of Fear--

We must learn and then teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness. Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait. People seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning.

Or, as C.S. Lewis said, "Everyone feels benevolent if nothing happens to be annoying him at the moment."

I just looked up that author, and in the journey found this:

www.huffingtonpost.com/judith-acosta/nice-but-not-good-the-art_b_772965.html

A psychotherapist and a psychiatrist put their heads together and wrote a list of the characteristics of "good" people and "super nice" people.

Good People

• They understand the battle against evil but never take pleasure in its defeat, rather sadness in its necessity.



• They have consistent integrity.



• They say what they mean and mean what they say.



• Good men and women are warriors of a sort. They do not tolerate injustice but also do not seek to punish or exact revenge.



• They are temperate of mind and heart.



• They have substance.



• They are responsible in that they respond to others.



• They are appropriately (not helplessly or cunningly) selfless.



• They are empathetic without being passive.



• There is no pretense in them, and they are willing to be good without seeking approval or awards of any kind.



• They are the last ones to see themselves as good and definitely the last ones to tell anyone they are.

Super Nice People

• They are "charming."



• They interact with a pseudo-intimacy, behaving as if they'd known you personally for years.



• They engage you on their terms only, even if you don't realize it.



• They can seem very passive and quiet.



• They relate to you on the surface and let you in only so far.



• They do not respond to your needs but gloss over them in a way that makes you wonder what you needed that for.



• They are very intent on pleasing others or ingratiating themselves into a social network.



• They need to maintain a persona or a position in a social circle at all costs because how they are seen is more important than who they are.



• They manipulate.



• They are like perfume -- very sweet but often used to cover what is deeply offensive.



• They have no compunction about lying to get what they want so long as they are nice about it.



• And, they will inevitably tell you how good they are.

And further in the article:

"In The Gift of Fear (1997) Gavin De Becker wrote, "Charm is another overrated ability. Note that I called it an ability, not an inherent feature of one's personality. Charm is almost always a directed instrument" (p. 66).

He suggests we see charm as a verb rather than a noun or adjective so that instead of a man being so charming, we can see him as trying to charm us. He likens niceness to a decision and warns us that it is not the same as a character trait. It is a strategic form of social interaction. Niceness is conscious and deliberate. It is a social skill that is turned on and off, a vehicle for self-enhancement. Niceness is persuasive.

Perhaps it should not go without saying that a nice man may in fact be a very good man. Not all charm is a cover for sadism or cruelty, although very often it is. Good and nice can coexist. A good man may be quite charming and engaging. But not always. Only in the right circumstances and for the right reasons. In the choice between what is right and what is "nice," a good man will choose what is right."

Lots and LOTS for me to think about today... .

[apple2]

8 year r/s; 6 months post b/u; 4 month n/c. My exBPDgf was a waif; no verbal abuse or rages.  (Lots of other signs though; black and white thinking, gaslighting, "feelings are facts," impulsive, etc. etc.)

She comes across to everyone she meets as a sweet, likable, gentle, funny soul.  Loves puppies and babies; gets along very well with everyone she works with; overall seems like a nice person.  I'm sure that people would be stunned to learn about the things she did while in our r/s (chronic lying and repeated infidelities - even when seeing a therapist, even when professing to love me.  Ultimately blamed her behavior on the fact that I was "mean" and "controlling".

Anyway, as I was thinking today I realized that I've always held the following assumptions:

• A person whom I consider to be "nice" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "niceness" - in other words, their actions towards people are kind and respectful.



• A person whom I consider to be "mean" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "meanness" - in other words, their actions towards people are hurtful and disrespectful.

One of the most difficult things for me to reconcile has been the following truth about my ex:

• A person whom I considered to be "nice" generally engaged in behaviors that reflected "meanness" -  in other words, her hurtful and disrespectful actions were not aligned with her "niceness."

The difficulty in reconciling this contradictory reality kept me in the FOG for years. I couldn't hold onto these two faces of my ex at the same time - I would swing between focusing on the nice personality or the mean behavior.  While I understand that EVERYONE is capable of being "nice" or "mean" at times, the extremes in my ex were mind boggling to me.

Today I'm trying to hold the totality of who she was in my mind.  At the same time. Without focusing one one at the exclusion of the other.  Because when I focus on the "nice" I miss her, and when I focus on the "mean" I'm angry as hell. 

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?  I feel like it's one of the keys to finally and completely letting go.

I also cannot figure out which one is real. But I really can't recall what the mean one said. It makes me miserable. I want to forget the bad words and let go... .

[jhkbuzz]

8 year r/s; 6 months post b/u; 4 month n/c. My exBPDgf was a waif; no verbal abuse or rages.  (Lots of other signs though; black and white thinking, gaslighting, "feelings are facts," impulsive, etc. etc.)

She comes across to everyone she meets as a sweet, likable, gentle, funny soul.  Loves puppies and babies; gets along very well with everyone she works with; overall seems like a nice person.  I'm sure that people would be stunned to learn about the things she did while in our r/s (chronic lying and repeated infidelities - even when seeing a therapist, even when professing to love me.  Ultimately blamed her behavior on the fact that I was "mean" and "controlling".

Anyway, as I was thinking today I realized that I've always held the following assumptions:

• A person whom I consider to be "nice" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "niceness" - in other words, their actions towards people are kind and respectful.



• A person whom I consider to be "mean" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "meanness" - in other words, their actions towards people are hurtful and disrespectful.

One of the most difficult things for me to reconcile has been the following truth about my ex:

• A person whom I considered to be "nice" generally engaged in behaviors that reflected "meanness" -  in other words, her hurtful and disrespectful actions were not aligned with her "niceness."

The difficulty in reconciling this contradictory reality kept me in the FOG for years. I couldn't hold onto these two faces of my ex at the same time - I would swing between focusing on the nice personality or the mean behavior.  While I understand that EVERYONE is capable of being "nice" or "mean" at times, the extremes in my ex were mind boggling to me.

Today I'm trying to hold the totality of who she was in my mind.  At the same time. Without focusing one one at the exclusion of the other.  Because when I focus on the "nice" I miss her, and when I focus on the "mean" I'm angry as hell. 

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?  I feel like it's one of the keys to finally and completely letting go.

I also cannot figure out which one is real. But I really can't recall what the mean one said. It makes me miserable. I want to forget the bad words and let go... .

That's the rub:  it's ALL part of them.  But the extreme dichotomy makes it difficult to hold it all in my brain at the same time - it's like I can only focus on one or the other - not both at the same time.  Like I split her into two different people.

The understanding that "nice" does not equal "good" is blowing my mind today, though... .more and more pieces are dropping into place.  It feels good.

[Conundrum]

Nice vs. mean, real vs. fake... .relational tension. These are relative terms subject to cultural mores, yet with ancient roots.

If to every thing there is a season and a purpose... .

And, a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace... .

Then who is the being--that combines love n hate, war n peace, in-the-blink-of-an-eye. In perpetuity.

The being that we loved?

Interlaced by nature.

Perhaps, notions behind the Apollonian and Dionysian would be instructive.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian

I was in a long relationship w my pwBPD too.

Looking back, I am less concerned with understanding her dialectical nature, but whether I can respect my portion in that journey with her.

Did I rise to the occasion or fall--fail? In toto, I was imperfect, therefore I grant myself grace. As we all should demonstrate self-love. Still, what I mirrored remained true, and right. A light. That is all that we can ask from ourselves, as all things change.     

       

[HappyNihilist]

jhkbuzz, I'm glad you found that excerpt helpful. I really like what you posted about "good" vs. "nice" - thank you for sharing! Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear is one of my all-time favorite books.

Then who is the being--that combines love n hate, war n peace, in-the-blink-of-an-eye. In perpetuity.

The being that we loved?

Interlaced by nature.

Perhaps, notions behind the Apollonian and Dionysian would be instructive.

I can't lie... .this was part of the draw for me... .that intoxicating, infinite interplay between Chaos and Reason. The artist in me was enthralled and inspired by it.

[myself]

Looking back, I am less concerned with understanding her dialectical nature, but whether I can respect my portion in that journey with her.

That's why many of us stayed, and also why many have walked away.

It's a form of following through with understanding ourselves.

[apollotech]

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?

But in private and given time, she let the facade down and showed who she really was: a scared little girl in pain, but also with a strong desire to be loved, something that seemed perpetually unattainable to her. 


And that ^^^ just made me feel really sad for her. Which scares me, because excessive sympathy is what kept me attached for so long.

Both personalities, mean and nice, are both real and fake. Real to be useful, but faked to be used. Confused? The personalities were generated to fulfill a purpose; therefore, they weren't genuine (real) personalities. We all do that; we all wear different masks for different situations, people, etc. To my son I am Dad; to my brother I am Brother; to my employer I am Employee. But, underneath all those masks are core personality traits (good or bad) that are seen no matter which mask I wear. I think BPD's are extremely adept at hiding or exposing their core personality traits at will when they are not having a BPD moment (raging, polorized thinking; dysregulating, etc.). That's why it's so hard to get to know the real BPD person. They are, quiet frankly, whoever they want to be at any given time. As stated above, the "facade has to let down" to see the real BPD person. A normal, healthy person doesn't maintain a total facade which hides their core self, only insignificant personality characteristics might change due to the situation or person addressed.

[downwhim]

I can't tell you how many times my ex said "I am so tired of being the nice guy." Wow, he did do some nice things for me but a lot of the time he was managing his BPD. He was not a super nice guy at all! Ask his neighbors, he has no friends in our area, ask his kids, ask me.

Yes, he will make dinner, bring flowers etc... but being a nice guy. Nope. His opinion of himself is different than how he views himself.

[DDMoo2013]

8 year r/s; 6 months post b/u; 4 month n/c. My exBPDgf was a waif; no verbal abuse or rages.  (Lots of other signs though; black and white thinking, gaslighting, "feelings are facts," impulsive, etc. etc.)

She comes across to everyone she meets as a sweet, likable, gentle, funny soul.  Loves puppies and babies; gets along very well with everyone she works with; overall seems like a nice person.  I'm sure that people would be stunned to learn about the things she did while in our r/s (chronic lying and repeated infidelities - even when seeing a therapist, even when professing to love me.  Ultimately blamed her behavior on the fact that I was "mean" and "controlling".

Anyway, as I was thinking today I realized that I've always held the following assumptions:

• A person whom I consider to be "nice" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "niceness" - in other words, their actions towards people are kind and respectful.



• A person whom I consider to be "mean" generally engages in behaviors that reflect this "meanness" - in other words, their actions towards people are hurtful and disrespectful.

One of the most difficult things for me to reconcile has been the following truth about my ex:

• A person whom I considered to be "nice" generally engaged in behaviors that reflected "meanness" -  in other words, her hurtful and disrespectful actions were not aligned with her "niceness."

The difficulty in reconciling this contradictory reality kept me in the FOG for years. I couldn't hold onto these two faces of my ex at the same time - I would swing between focusing on the nice personality or the mean behavior.  While I understand that EVERYONE is capable of being "nice" or "mean" at times, the extremes in my ex were mind boggling to me.

Today I'm trying to hold the totality of who she was in my mind.  At the same time. Without focusing one one at the exclusion of the other.  Because when I focus on the "nice" I miss her, and when I focus on the "mean" I'm angry as hell. 

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?  I feel like it's one of the keys to finally and completely letting go.

Almost like you have read my mind... .almost 2 months NC and I am still between anger and sympathy... .hope to be strong enough to run like hell... .

[jhkbuzz]

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?

But in private and given time, she let the facade down and showed who she really was: a scared little girl in pain, but also with a strong desire to be loved, something that seemed perpetually unattainable to her.  


And that ^^^ just made me feel really sad for her. Which scares me, because excessive sympathy is what kept me attached for so long.

Both personalities, mean and nice, are both real and fake. Real to be useful, but faked to be used. Confused? The personalities were generated to fulfill a purpose; therefore, they weren't genuine (real) personalities. We all do that; we all wear different masks for different situations, people, etc. To my son I am Dad; to my brother I am Brother; to my employer I am Employee. But, underneath all those masks are core personality traits (good or bad) that are seen no matter which mask I wear. I think BPD's are extremely adept at hiding or exposing their core personality traits at will when they are not having a BPD moment (raging, polorized thinking; dysregulating, etc.). That's why it's so hard to get to know the real BPD person. They are, quiet frankly, whoever they want to be at any given time. As stated above, the "facade has to let down" to see the real BPD person. A normal, healthy person doesn't maintain a total facade which hides their core self, only insignificant personality characteristics might change due to the situation or person addressed.

I'm not sure about all this, although maybe I'm just a little thick . I do understand "generated to fulfill a purpose," but there's a difference between the "masks" you describe (social roles) and "core personality traits."  I think there's also a difference between core personality traits and moral or ethical values.

Perhaps what you have described as "core personality traits" are actually "moral or ethical values."

No matter my social roles - partner, parent, sister, teacher, etc., my moral/ethical values can be seen - imperfect though I am - in spite of the fact that I make mistakes - through my actions.  Reflecting on the list I posted earlier: I have consistent integrity, I say what I mean and mean what I say, I can be selfless, I am responsible, and am usually without pretense.  Not perfect, but can be counted on to do the right thing when push comes to shove.  This is not always because of any super-inherent goodness in me, but sometimes simply because violating my conscience is so painful to me that it's easier to do the right thing !  The interesting thing in all of this is that I don't consider myself to be an especially "nice" person.

You also said that "I think BPD's are extremely adept at hiding or exposing their core personality traits at will... ." With a deficient sense of self, I'm not sure that they're "hiding" as much as they simply have no sense of who they really are.

What my exBPDgf was very adept at was hiding the fact that she really didn't have any moral values - and I say that without anger at this point.  I believed she did because she mirrored mine - and I was shocked when I realized that that was the case. I recently read in a quote from R. Bradley in the clinical literature:

As hypoth-esized clinically, BPD is also associated with a lower capacity for emotional investment in relationships (i.e., a tendency to focus on the gratification, security, or benefits others provide) and in values and moral standards (e.g., poorly integrated standards for the self, failure to internalize and integrate value systems)

Yes and yes.

[jhkbuzz]

Almost like you have read my mind... .almost 2 months NC and I am still between anger and sympathy... .hope to be strong enough to run like hell... .

Stay strong my friend.  Don't think you can jump back into the fire and escape the inevitable third degree burns.

The swing between anger and sympathy has been one of the most difficult things for me to deal with. It's one of the reasons I wrote this post - because I am working on integrating the totality of who she was into my consciousness.  Primarily to stop the pendulum swing.

My goal is detached compassion.

[raisins3142]

What my exBPDgf was very adept at was hiding the fact that she really didn't have any moral values - and I say that without anger at this point.  I believed she did because she mirrored mine - and I was shocked when I realized that that was the case. I recently read in a quote from R. Bradley in the clinical literature:

As hypoth-esized clinically, BPD is also associated with a lower capacity for emotional investment in relationships (i.e., a tendency to focus on the gratification, security, or benefits others provide) and in values and moral standards (e.g., poorly integrated standards for the self, failure to internalize and integrate value systems)

Yes and yes.

I saw this as well in my BPDexgf.  She hated judgment of any kind, even of others.  When I would judge someone's actions as negative, she would play a game of coming up with some reason that it was okay or some weird, far flung counter example to what I said.  For instance, my cousin was putting her child in a risky situation and my ex stated "well there is a chance that nothing will happen" as if that is a point at all when talking about probabilities.  That is just the example that came to mind just now.  It is not "clever" to always be able to strain to come up with the other side of something.  Sometimes the other side is laughable.  I think though that this is what she did for herself to justify or rationalize her actions.

When she had to admit to cheating on a few exes, she said that one "came in and did not hug me, so I cheated on him, so always hug me" she said this with a smirk and little laugh.  I said "I can't believe you are blaming him for that and laughing about it".  Her face dropped and she knew she was busted.  I said "you just justify and rationalize everything, don't you?" we broke up within a few weeks.

Also, her best friend (also cluster b) cheated on her husband and is an attention hungry nympho.  My ex would not judge her behavior at all.  Most other women wanted nothing to do with this woman, or my exgf it seems.  My ex stated how her best friend lied to her all the time and was really good at it. 

Also, in 6 months she never randomly brought up a situation and said something compassionate.  Like maybe seeing an elderly person shopping alone and saying something kind to me about them.  Zero.  Not once a warm word about someone.

[apollotech]

Has anyone had any luck assimilating these contradictory extremes about their ex into their brain?

But in private and given time, she let the facade down and showed who she really was: a scared little girl in pain, but also with a strong desire to be loved, something that seemed perpetually unattainable to her.  


And that ^^^ just made me feel really sad for her. Which scares me, because excessive sympathy is what kept me attached for so long.

Both personalities, mean and nice, are both real and fake. Real to be useful, but faked to be used. Confused? The personalities were generated to fulfill a purpose; therefore, they weren't genuine (real) personalities. We all do that; we all wear different masks for different situations, people, etc. To my son I am Dad; to my brother I am Brother; to my employer I am Employee. But, underneath all those masks are core personality traits (good or bad) that are seen no matter which mask I wear. I think BPD's are extremely adept at hiding or exposing their core personality traits at will when they are not having a BPD moment (raging, polorized thinking; dysregulating, etc.). That's why it's so hard to get to know the real BPD person. They are, quiet frankly, whoever they want to be at any given time. As stated above, the "facade has to let down" to see the real BPD person. A normal, healthy person doesn't maintain a total facade which hides their core self, only insignificant personality characteristics might change due to the situation or person addressed.

I'm not sure about all this, although maybe I'm just a little thick . I do understand "generated to fulfill a purpose," but there's a difference between the "masks" you describe (social roles) and "core personality traits."  I think there's also a difference between core personality traits and moral or ethical values.

Perhaps what you have described as "core personality traits" are actually "moral or ethical values."

No matter my social roles - partner, parent, sister, teacher, etc., my moral/ethical values can be seen - imperfect though I am - in spite of the fact that I make mistakes - through my actions.  Reflecting on the list I posted earlier: I have consistent integrity, I say what I mean and mean what I say, I can be selfless, I am responsible, and am usually without pretense.  Not perfect, but can be counted on to do the right thing when push comes to shove.  This is not always because of any super-inherent goodness in me, but sometimes simply because violating my conscience is so painful to me that it's easier to do the right thing !  The interesting thing in all of this is that I don't consider myself to be an especially "nice" person.

You also said that "I think BPD's are extremely adept at hiding or exposing their core personality traits at will... ." With a deficient sense of self, I'm not sure that they're "hiding" as much as they simply have no sense of who they really are.

What my exBPDgf was very adept at was hiding the fact that she really didn't have any moral values - and I say that without anger at this point.  I believed she did because she mirrored mine - and I was shocked when I realized that that was the case. I recently read in a quote from R. Bradley in the clinical literature:

As hypoth-esized clinically, BPD is also associated with a lower capacity for emotional investment in relationships (i.e., a tendency to focus on the gratification, security, or benefits others provide) and in values and moral standards (e.g., poorly integrated standards for the self, failure to internalize and integrate value systems)

Yes and yes.

No, you actually did get it, but you're looking at it from a normal persons perspective. I think that's where you're getting caught up in not clearly understanding what I had written. We have basically said the same thing. What you call morals, ethics, integrity, honesty, etc. I call core personality traits. As we both wrote, in a normal person those core traits are seen across all masks. A BPD doesn't do that. If we had seen that our respecrive partners afflicted the BPD actually had no integrity, actually were dishonest, actually were selfish, etc. I doubt that we would have befriended our BPD partners. You call their false self mirroring; I call it generating. Regardless of whatever descriptive terminology is applied, it's still a facade, a generated (mirrored) false self.

When I said that they are adept at hiding their true self what you wrote illustrates my point. There is a self in there; BPD's are not mindless. When you found that your partner had no morals that is a core personality trait... .having no morals is still "something." Mirroring your morals was just another false self. You have to abandon what you expect and accept what you find to begin to understand BPD traits:


"What my exBPDgf was very adept at was hiding the fact that she really didn't have any moral values - and I say that without anger at this point.  I believed she did because she mirrored mine - and I was shocked when I realized that that was the case."

[neverloveagain]

My waif ex had several faces all real.

[apple2]

I can't tell you how many times my ex said "I am so tired of being the nice guy."

Mine was the same

[DDMoo2013]

Almost like you have read my mind... .almost 2 months NC and I am still between anger and sympathy... .hope to be strong enough to run like hell... .

Stay strong my friend.  Don't think you can jump back into the fire and escape the inevitable third degree burns.

The swing between anger and sympathy has been one of the most difficult things for me to deal with. It's one of the reasons I wrote this post - because I am working on integrating the totality of who she was into my consciousness.  Primarily to stop the pendulum swing.

My goal is detached compassion.

I feel exactly the same Jhkbuzz and I like the analogy of a pendulum swing/third degree burns... .detached compassion is the only thing I think can realistically achieve at some point in the future... .I hate this pendulm swing right now, but I have 5-7 years worth of crap to get out of my system!

[jhkbuzz]

Almost like you have read my mind... .almost 2 months NC and I am still between anger and sympathy... .hope to be strong enough to run like hell... .

Stay strong my friend.  Don't think you can jump back into the fire and escape the inevitable third degree burns.

The swing between anger and sympathy has been one of the most difficult things for me to deal with. It's one of the reasons I wrote this post - because I am working on integrating the totality of who she was into my consciousness.  Primarily to stop the pendulum swing.

My goal is detached compassion.

I feel exactly the same Jhkbuzz and I like the analogy of a pendulum swing/third degree burns... .detached compassion is the only thing I think can realistically achieve at some point in the future... .I hate this pendulm swing right now, but I have 5-7 years worth of crap to get out of my system!

After 8 years, I totally understand.  I'm approaching my 7th month post b/u (and almost 5 months n/c) and things are DEFINITELY getting better.  Not totally done... .it's kind of like a very slow healing.  I'm seeing a T, which helps tremendously... .hope you are too.