My wife is the "Waif' type

[maxsterling]

I read the descriptions of different types of BPD.  My wife is clearly the "Waif" type.  Low functioning, extremely low self image, always a victim.  I had an ex whom I have labeled as NPD, who also pretty well fits the description of the "queen" BPD.  And their behaviors at times are eerily similar, and at other times seem completely opposite. 

When I read about the "Waif" type, something strikes me - that this type tends to fall apart when given responsibilities.  This is exactly what I have experienced with my wife.  I'm told over and over to not do things for my wife and let her suffer her own consequences, otherwise she will never learn.  The description of the waif that I read tells me she is incapable of learning by having more responsibilities.  That is exactly my observations.  I will let her handle her own issues and she falls apart, and things won't get done.  I feel perplexed that the same patterns happen over and over again. 

I think that is where I have run into a rut about this wedding stuff.  At one time I thought that she wanted to do this and that the responsibility would be good for her in helping her feel needed and important.  But the exact opposite has happened.  The increased responsibility has made things worse, she blames me more, and feels even more like a victim. 

Reading that description of the "waif" forces me to re-think things a little bit.  Before, I thought that if I slacked off on some of the household chores like cooking and cleaning (I do 99% of those chores as it is now), she would eventually pick up the slack.  But when I do, all she does is complain more and get more stressed out.  She never learns.  I think I need to better accept that she is incapable of those tasks.  That doesn't mean do them for her, but it does mean letting go of any expectation that my actions will make anything better or worse, and instead just focus on doing what I feel comfortable with and taking care of me.

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[JRT]

Mine was a waif... .she had a very interesting combination in this respect. She stayed right on top of some things while others, even though the words would come from her mouth agreeing to performing the task, it would never get done. Most of the time, it was never even initiated. I wonder if its part of their black and white thinking; as if even though she agreed to the task, she really stored it in the 'never gonna do it' file.

[maxsterling]

Mine was a waif... .she had a very interesting combination in this respect. She stayed right on top of some things while others, even though the words would come from her mouth agreeing to performing the task, it would never get done. Most of the time, it was never even initiated. I wonder if its part of their black and white thinking; as if even though she agreed to the task, she really stored it in the 'never gonna do it' file.

I see this, too.  She will spend all day planning and saying she will do this or that.  When it comes time to do this or that, she rarely does it and presents and excuse instead.  I can't think of too many times where she has actually gotten something done that she planned to do without me or someone else being involved in persuading her.  Even when she has started cooking dinner, she almost always needs my help with something.

[JRT]

You know, the more that I think about it, most of the stuff that she DID do, was because I was involved. She had a stormy relationship with her boss as well... .I wonder if she was the same at work. (of course, NOTHING was her fault... .she was victimized by her boss... .so I have no way of knowing objectively  :-)    )

[MaroonLiquid]

When my wife and I first got together, she was "the waif" with a side of "hermit".  She "wanted" and expressed her desire to be a submissive wife who wants to see her husband succeed because it benefitted her.  After my last marriage, that's what I wanted, too.  She wanted me to go back to school and get my degree to do what I loved (so she said).  I truly wanted to make her life better than she had by giving her what she didn't know.  That was being a supportive, loving husband who loved and cared for the kids.  I had no intention of being enabling at all.   I thought because we knew each other so well, had very similar childhoods, similar previous marriages, and were best friends, it was no secret why we got together.  Also, the physical connection ( ) that we shared I had never experienced before and it only heightened the feelings I had for her.  The physical portion of our relationship is how she pulled me in.  She knew the issues in my first marriage (sex maybe once a year) and obviously knew that would pull me in. 

Around our wedding 6 years ago, the "queen" and "witch" reared their ugly head.   She started doing less (gradually less to almost nothing to the time of our split) and expected me to pick up her slack (asking me to cook 3-4 times a week after driving an hour each way to work and her working from home).  When I wouldn't, the witch would come out.  For the better part of the last 8 months of separation, I have gotten the witch.  Now, the kids cook all 7 meals in their home each week and has a schedule made and posted.  The interesting thing with that is, before our separation, she wouldn't make them do any chores (cooking, cleaning, etc) during the week because they needed to "concentrate on their homework" and nothing else, as that should be their only responsibility.  I always told her I didn't agree as it taught them nothing about how to be self sufficient in life.  She didn't care.  Yet, during that time our son was constantly struggling in school and always finding time for video games.  Interesting how that dynamic went out the window once I wasn't living with them.

[maxsterling]

Yes, same was true when she was working as a teacher.  Doing anything stressed her out, and often it would only be through the motivation of me or a friend helping that she would actually get started.  So I wound up helping her get started on grading papers, setting up her classroom, etc.  Once she got going, she was better, but often it took someone else's offer to help before she would actually initiate. 

Same goes with cleaning.  If I start cleaning and tell her what to do, she will complain about it for 10 minutes, then settle in.  But no way in hell she will start cleaning on her own unless I am cleaning, too.

It reminds me of being a kid with a messy room.  My mom would say, "I will sit with you for a few minutes and help you get started... ."

[ydrys017]

Max, is there a link to the 'types of BPD'?

[Hermit]

I'm curious too -- where can I read about the different types of BPD?

[Jessica84]

Max, is there a link to the 'types of BPD'?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0

[Turkish]

Max,

You know the waif's dominant emotional state is helplessness: "rescue me!"

After our second child, I felt that I was taking n too much responsibilities. Every weekend I was awaking at 5:30-6am to take care of then Dthenbaby, and then D2 after he would wake: diapers, laundry, food. I would even serve her breakfast in bed sometimes when she finally got up around 8:30 or 9. She always needed more sleep than I did. Then I started to passively resent her, and she felt it.

How would it be if you stepped back from doing all that you do and letting the household "sink or swim?"

My post mortem analysis of my r/s resulted in me thinking that by doing too much, I may have contributed to her lack of self worth. pwBPD feel a core sense of shame. Was I feeding that shame unknowingly?

Love the waif without rescuing her.

[waverider]

Reading that description of the "waif" forces me to re-think things a little bit.  Before, I thought that if I slacked off on some of the household chores like cooking and cleaning (I do 99% of those chores as it is now), she would eventually pick up the slack.  But when I do, all she does is complain more and get more stressed out.  She never learns.  I think I need to better accept that she is incapable of those tasks.  That doesn't mean do them for her, but it does mean letting go of any expectation that my actions will make anything better or worse, and instead just focus on doing what I feel comfortable with and taking care of me.

Much the same here. She even acknowledges that she is slacking off and still cant/wont help. Its like a phobia and like I was asking her to put her head in a bag of spiders .

Tried the not doing stuff . Didn't work, she would happily do without or live in filth, and the worst it got the less likely she would be to start. Talking about it with her she says it has something to do with not being able to put processes in an orderly manner and hence can't see where to start and freezes at the thought of it.

Now i just take control of what I am happy to do, live in some kind of orderly fashion and take my "pay' if you like by awarding myself loads of "me" time. Because we are not having endless conflict over this she is happy go with that arrangement and not interfering with my "me" time.

If you dont compensate yourself somehow resentment will build. Trying to force equality will piss them off and frustrate you no end, resulting in endless conflict.

As we go further down the path to dealing with the disorder she may learn ways to address this better, until then I am not going to start earthquakes over it.

[JohnLove]

Love the waif without rescuing her.

That seems like a good and simple philosophy... .but won't she be on the lookout/just find someone else to fulfill that need?

[waverider]

Love the waif without rescuing her.

That seems like a good and simple philosophy... .but won't she be on the lookout/just find someone else to fulfill that need?

Maybe, but you can't do it either, the waif will always need rescuing, as it is a "need". That is the cruel thing about neediness, it is a process it can't be fulfilled. But you can be drained.

Its like a river, it flows, adding water to the river will not fill it, only make it flow faster. You will eventually run out of water trying.

Need will only stop when there is no supply available from anywhere.

[Notwendy]

IMHO, there seems to be ways to get rescued besides the partner... so the supply can come from anywhere. The only choice we have is to be part of it or not to do it.

My mom is a waif and dad was her rescuer. However, the needing to be rescued was part of her personality and she set this up with many more people than dad, even if they were not romantic. One way she does this with family members is to set up sides- she paints one family member black and then gets the other ones to "rescue" her. Or she acts helpless and gets people to do things for her. You mentioned that rescuing the waif diminishes their self worth, and it does, but having people do things for them is validating as it made my mom feel like the queen.

I am amazed at how well my mother sets herself up to be rescued. She has painted me black to many of her relatives and they step in to "rescue" her from me. She has told them that I cut her off from the grandkids, which isn't true, but she does what she can to get around their privacy boundaries. Many relatives on her side of the family have taken on the role of "rescuing" her by reporting any news they hear about me or my kids to her.

The way the dillemma of being rescued and feeling less competent is solved is to pretend that she did it. So she will get people to do things for her and say she did them. She expects us to go along with it.  If we say otherwise, she has a fit. As well as family members, she has other people help her- a kindly neighbor or friends.

So, while the romantic partner may have a special role as "rescuer", the role can be extended to others- older children, relatives, friends.

[ziniztar]

I have to say, I've been Reading up on the types as well, to better understand the dynamics I was in with dBPDxbf. It's easier to see it when you're out of the chaos and less enmeshed.

He is The waif type too, 100%. I recognize The 'if the romantic partner isn't rescuing The waif will search for other people to rescue.' I even remember feeling invalidated when I wanted to be there for him and he called for hours with other female friends. I've met some of them and they are similar to me. Nearly everyone around him is disordered. The people that arent are distancing themselves from him.

I am dating someone else (from high school  ) now and things are going quite well. It's nice to experience how calm attachement can be. But it did make me realize: I think I needed the waif type before because 'accepting' the illness and shortcomings of dBPDxbf meant I couldn't ask anything from my partner. As some of you write below, asking any type of contribution to The r/s (in time or effort, house chores or anything else) would send him in overdrive.

It did two things:

- conform The (unrightful) expectation that I can't expect anything from my SO, that my needs are unworthy and unimportant

- confirm his view of being less than others, contributing to his shame

- help me avoid to actually make myself important

I caught myself thinking with my newish bf when we were about to do the dishes: "I can't not expect him to do the dishes because there is nothing wrong with him emotionally/mentally" (for as far as a person can asses that on The Outside). It scared the living hell out of me because it meant I could expect something from him. And it means he can disappoint me - and I can feel worthless again. From that perspective it's a lot easier to be with someone you can't expect anything from.

Just something I wanted to share. I don't feel everyone should follow The same track as I did as everyones situation is different. I do think it's important to ask yourself why you're avoiding to expect a r/s that is equal.  

[maxsterling]

zinistar - interesting thoughts.  My perspective did change when I read the description of "waif".  it made me realize I need to approach her and our r/s with a different perspective, and figure out how to work with that.  When I read it, it made me realize a new perspective on the term "enabling".  I go to alonon/naranon meetings, and we talk about "not doing for other what they are capable of doing for themselves."  The idea is that if we keep taking other's responsibilities from them, they will never learn, and the behavior continues.  I've had a hard time with that concept in regards to my wife, because experience is teaching me that she really isn't capable of doing those things herself.  She's faced her own consequences over, and over, and yet has not learned or changed.  And this frustrates me, not just because she is not "learning", but that I feel like an "enabler".

My new perspective is to not concern myself with "enabling" her and instead concern myself with me.  It not about letting her do them so that she will quit relying on me; it's about me NOT doing them as to not exhaust myself - break my own cycle.  The reality is, if I don't do the dishes, they won't get done.  I either do the dishes or I don't.  Whether she does them or not is nothing I have control over and nothing I can fix. 

[Notwendy]

Some of us don't know any other way... .

.

I think I was born into enabling and caretaking. By adolescence, I was emotionally "older" than my mother, and being that she is petite, I was at least her size and got taller. So she could be all cute and helpless with me " Oh Wendy you are so much stronger than I am- will you do this for me- carry this, clean this-- ? "Still, the family revoved around her needs and her moods. Enabling was not a choice. As the parent, she had authority and power. Do this or I will rage, or worse, tell your father and he will rage too.

Basically every encounter with her is a battle of boundaries. She calls for this reason, and when I visit, it's worse. Her interactions consist of her finding ways to manipulate me. It's exhausting. She will call, presumably about something else, and midway through the conversation, it is bait and switch. During one, she hounded me for an address- something I could not give her at the moment- because I was driving and couldn't look it up. She assumes that I am digging my heels in, and then, finds all kinds of ways to ask about it. Saying "no" is an invitation to her- like a red cape to a bull. How does she get me to do the dishes at her house? By saying, 'oh, I just got my nails done- you don't want me to ruin them do you? Or if she's at my house, right after the meal, she announces " I'm so tired, I need to rest".

I learned not to expect from others, because basically, I don't even know what that must be like. A guy doing the dishes would be a fantasy. ( could care less about 50 shades of grey, but now 50 shades of washing dishes? maybe... .)Now, my r/s with my H is much different, better, but the enabling was not on the physical level so much as the emotional one WOE to keep him from raging ,and allowing his raging to rule me. Raging controlled me as a kid and until I had enough therapy to get a grip on my reaction, it ruled me as an adult. I had to stop managing my H's bad feelings for him, enabling him by not asking him to do anything he didn't want to do, and basically appease him. This was bad for him and bad for me. Now, I do have expectations of him- that he can manage his own feelings, because it isn't good for either of us for me to WOE. Maybe one day, I'll see the dishes done on occasion.

However, when living with a waif, it isn't so easy to distinguish what is enabling and what is not because they have a way of making that hard to do and confusing. Of course, mom can do her own dishes, but then, I'd be the one who made her ruin her manicure...

Although I emphasise that my father was an enabler, I also think he was a saint. He truly loved my mother, and their relationship must have been much different than that of being the painted black child. He was also a good father to us, under tough circumstances.

[waverider]

IMHO, there seems to be ways to get rescued besides the partner... so the supply can come from anywhere. The only choice we have is to be part of it or not to do it.

My mom is a waif and dad was her rescuer. However, the needing to be rescued was part of her personality and she set this up with many more people than dad, even if they were not romantic. One way she does this with family members is to set up sides- she paints one family member black and then gets the other ones to "rescue" her. Or she acts helpless and gets people to do things for her. You mentioned that rescuing the waif diminishes their self worth, and it does, but having people do things for them is validating as it made my mom feel like the queen.

I am amazed at how well my mother sets herself up to be rescued. She has painted me black to many of her relatives and they step in to "rescue" her from me. She has told them that I cut her off from the grandkids, which isn't true, but she does what she can to get around their privacy boundaries. Many relatives on her side of the family have taken on the role of "rescuing" her by reporting any news they hear about me or my kids to her.

The way the dillemma of being rescued and feeling less competent is solved is to pretend that she did it. So she will get people to do things for her and say she did them. She expects us to go along with it.  If we say otherwise, she has a fit. As well as family members, she has other people help her- a kindly neighbor or friends.

So, while the romantic partner may have a special role as "rescuer", the role can be extended to others- older children, relatives, friends.

This is all part of the Drama Triangle

[waverider]

I caught myself thinking with my newish bf when we were about to do the dishes: "I can't not expect him to do the dishes because there is nothing wrong with him emotionally/mentally" (for as far as a person can asses that on The Outside). It scared the living hell out of me because it meant I could expect something from him. And it means he can disappoint me - and I can feel worthless again. From that perspective it's a lot easier to be with someone you can't expect anything from.

Just something I wanted to share. I don't feel everyone should follow The same track as I did as everyones situation is different. I do think it's important to ask yourself why you're avoiding to expect a r/s that is equal.  

This is a good point and partly one of the reasons we get snared by pwBPD in the first place, they dont present as a threat of us being overwhelmed. They "need" us, makes us feel good. If it wasn't for this ability to trigger the rescuer in us we would probably have lost interest pretty quick.

While others are saying "quit complaining" "get your act together"etc... we are saying "poor you" "let me help" "I can do that for you"... You reach out with your hand to help and they need a forklift to hand you their baggage. They think you are wonderful then go off shopping for some more baggage... You have now set a precedent and stubbornly try to live up to your promise to help.

Being a rescuer feels rewarding, then its a slippery slope from there.

Equal RS can be a threat as you may feel under pressure to keep up the standard too. That is a self confidence thing. Someone who lets you take control is easier. Problem is the balance is never ideal, it was our fantasy of an easy life that backfires.