After the conversation with my trainer, I give up

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi group,

yesterday, I asked my trainer, whether mine can change. He is BPD/NPD.

For me, the personality disorder is like catching a cold, or more severe, like a cancer, although the hope in not so large, but I thought it can be cured. I thought if I delete the word disorder, I can have the best version of him and we will be happy thereafter. I thought the best version of him is the true him, others are only the disease.

My trainer told me, firstly, if those people have no problem in professional life, they generally don't think they need help. Secondly, the disordered personality is their personality. There is no good version, both the good and the bad merits belong to his character. The personality is formed in the past 20 to 30 years, it is not so easy to erase or change. Even we are normal, if today I tell you to change, and have the personality as one of your friends or neighbors, imagine, it is a difficult thing. You may even not change your personality in 5 years, because the underlying environment in your past 30 years make you as you are today.

Yes, there is neither good him nor bad him, he is just like that. I accept I cannot change anything. I can only leave. It is a sad fact, but I am afraid so. 

[apple2]

Hi group,

yesterday, I asked my trainer, whether mine can change. He is BPD/NPD.

For me, the personality disorder is like catching a cold, or more severe, like a cancer, although the hope in not so large, but I thought it can be cured. I thought if I delete the word disorder, I can have the best version of him and we will be happy thereafter. I thought the best version of him is the true him, others are only the disease.

My trainer told me, firstly, if those people have no problem in professional life, they generally don't think they need help. Secondly, the disordered personality is their personality. There is no good version, both the good and the bad merits belong to his character. The personality is formed in the past 20 to 30 years, it is not so easy to erase or change. Even we are normal, if today I tell you to change, and have the personality as one of your friends or neighbors, imagine, it is a difficult thing. You may even not change your personality in 5 years, because the underlying environment in your past 30 years make you as you are today.

Yes, there is neither good him nor bad him, he is just like that. I accept I cannot change anything. I can only leave. It is a sad fact, but I am afraid so. 

[Heldfast]

Mine BPDexfiance is high functioning and while she knows there is some problem, she refuses to admit it, this is just how she is. She holds down jobs (changing every 2 years or so) and is good with money. My therapist said expect years of therapy if she'd stick to it, you have to find the core issues and then help mature the person for all the years they've been frozen by whatever that core trauma was.

[apple2]

Mine BPDexfiance is high functioning and while she knows there is some problem, she refuses to admit it, this is just how she is. She holds down jobs (changing every 2 years or so) and is good with money. My therapist said expect years of therapy if she'd stick to it, you have to find the core issues and then help mature the person for all the years they've been frozen by whatever that core trauma was.

Mine is also excellent at job. He also knows he has a problem, even he can figure it out. Eg he is crazy in emotional life, he is lack of empathy, but said he is so. He asked me do you think you can change me?

I can't, if he is fine with himself...

[BatMasterson]

Yep.  the high-functioning ones also seem to be the best at twisting the situation around so *you* end up being the one with the issue.   Even though they realize they have an issue (be it commitment phobia or selfishness or trouble telling the truth), it seems to end up being either rationalized away as something innocuous or a result of some behavior or trait that you are exhibiting that is triggering them.   For me that's been the hardest part - externally they have it all together... .good career/job, highly intelligent, able to debate and converse intelligently... .enough to make you start doubting yourself.   It's only when you apply the cold-light-of-day-yardstick to the situations that you realize that something huge is really wrong... .and even then you'll end up making excuses for them.    Until they can recognize that *and* value you and the relationship enough to do something about it, it's a complete non-starter... .and that's what sucks.  Mine actually said "I'm happy with who I've become."... .and it continued to go horribly downhill until the bitter end.

[Invictus01]

Mine is also a very much functioning BPD woman. A general manager of a national chain restaurant location, pretty much running a multi million dollar business at the age of 26. It is really a shame what her mom did to her, she has a lot of great things going for her that got nothing to do with BPD. I distinctly remember telling her how I am impressed by how she got her $hit together at such a young age, and she kinda winced, stopped for a second and said "Kinda" I wonder if she was trying to tell me something... .

As far as the treatment, I have read that they need 4-7 years of hardcore therapy to kinda sorta maybe re-learn how to behave like a grown up. In many cases, psychiatrists flat out hate dealing with BPDs because they consider it a waste of time (and insurance doesn't cover it) and diagnose it with a depression or bipolar.

[raisins3142]

Just curious, is this a physical trainer that also has BPD or are you talking about a therapist?  I can't tell from your wording.

[HappyNihilist]

the disordered personality is their personality. There is no good version, both the good and the bad merits belong to his character.  

^ This.

The personality is formed in the past 20 to 30 years, it is not so easy to erase or change. Even we are normal, if today I tell you to change, and have the personality as one of your friends or neighbors, imagine, it is a difficult thing. You may even not change your personality in 5 years, because the underlying environment in your past 30 years make you as you are today. 

Absolutely.

Yes, there is neither good him nor bad him, he is just like that. I accept I cannot change anything. I can only leave. It is a sad fact, but I am afraid so. 

Thank you so much for posting this, apple. Radical acceptance is so important for detachment and healing. 

[Tibbles]

" The high-functioning ones also seem to be the best at twisting the situation around so *you* end up being the one with the issue.   Even though they realize they have an issue (be it commitment phobia or selfishness or trouble telling the truth), it seems to end up being either rationalized away as something innocuous or a result of some behavior or trait that you are exhibiting that is triggering them" -  So true BatMasterson - describes exactly my ex. I was and always will be the issue and reason we split.

[raisins3142]

" The high-functioning ones also seem to be the best at twisting the situation around so *you* end up being the one with the issue.   Even though they realize they have an issue (be it commitment phobia or selfishness or trouble telling the truth), it seems to end up being either rationalized away as something innocuous or a result of some behavior or trait that you are exhibiting that is triggering them" -  So true BatMasterson - describes exactly my ex. I was and always will be the issue and reason we split.

A previous cluster b ex (more of a witch or queen), not the latest I usually post about, devalued me because while she was busy with school I did not ever think to bring chinese food and a dvd over.  The whole conversation was her repeating "and you never thought I'd like some take out and a movie! not even once!"  Mind you, she never mentioned that before, and I was driving 1.5 hours one way most every night to come see her.  I suppose every night she would think "still no chinese food and dvd!"  The specificity of this complaint is rather boggling.

[apple2]

Just curious, is this a physical trainer that also has BPD or are you talking about a therapist?  I can't tell from your wording.

Sorry for the unclear description. I talked with my therapist about my Ex. My Ex has BPD/NPD.

[apple2]

For me that's been the hardest part - externally they have it all together... .good career/job, highly intelligent, able to debate and converse intelligently... .enough to make you start doubting yourself. It's only when you apply the cold-light-of-day-yardstick to the situations that you realize that something huge is really wrong... .and even then you'll end up making excuses for them.

Yes, that's awful. When someone who is competent and smart keeps saying negative things about you, even he does not really mean it, you begin to have those negative thoughts implanted in your mind, you begin to think you are really not good enough. However, a good relationship should be a plus in life, not on the opposite.

[apple2]

As far as the treatment, I have read that they need 4-7 years of hardcore therapy to kinda sorta maybe re-learn how to behave like a grown up. In many cases, psychiatrists flat out hate dealing with BPDs because they consider it a waste of time (and insurance doesn't cover it) and diagnose it with a depression or bipolar.

Mine is high-functioning. He admits he has a problem (needs to improve EQ, he is not easy-going etc.), and he also tried to read some books for EQ-improvement. But the issues such as lack of empathy, saying mean things without realizing the emotional damage to other people... .cannot be solved through book reading.

The therapy might be hard, but persuading them to go for therapy is harder.

[apple2]

the disordered personality is their personality. There is no good version, both the good and the bad merits belong to his character.  

^ This.

The personality is formed in the past 20 to 30 years, it is not so easy to erase or change. Even we are normal, if today I tell you to change, and have the personality as one of your friends or neighbors, imagine, it is a difficult thing. You may even not change your personality in 5 years, because the underlying environment in your past 30 years make you as you are today.  

Absolutely.

Yes, there is neither good him nor bad him, he is just like that. I accept I cannot change anything. I can only leave. It is a sad fact, but I am afraid so.  

Thank you so much for posting this, apple. Radical acceptance is so important for detachment and healing.  

Even I was so sad, I still wished to help him or support him as a friend. Actually I was still focusing on him: on changing him and healing him.

But the only thing I can do is leaving him. It is so hard and brutal, but it is the only way to let him know his behavior is totally not ok.

[apple2]

" The high-functioning ones also seem to be the best at twisting the situation around so *you* end up being the one with the issue.   Even though they realize they have an issue (be it commitment phobia or selfishness or trouble telling the truth), it seems to end up being either rationalized away as something innocuous or a result of some behavior or trait that you are exhibiting that is triggering them" -  So true BatMasterson - describes exactly my ex. I was and always will be the issue and reason we split.

A previous cluster b ex (more of a witch or queen), not the latest I usually post about, devalued me because while she was busy with school I did not ever think to bring chinese food and a dvd over.  The whole conversation was her repeating "and you never thought I'd like some take out and a movie! not even once!"  Mind you, she never mentioned that before, and I was driving 1.5 hours one way most every night to come see her.  I suppose every night she would think "still no chinese food and dvd!"  The specificity of this complaint is rather boggling.

Sorry to hear that. You don't deserve this. I also wondered why some people don't know how to be thankful. I was once in a famous restaurant with him and I paid for us. The dinner ended with his comment "The food here can't be worse. I am so happy that I don't need to come here again." I was so tolerate because at the beginning I thought he is not mature. Then I thought he has a personality disorder, I needed to be strong enough and patient enough to help him out. Finally, I realized I can't do anything, except letting myself get hurt.

[Tibbles]

That was the hard thing for me too - realising there is nothing I can do to either help him or myself as long as I stayed in the relationship. For me that became clear when I realised I had become his trigger for his issues. All I was doing was triggering him, no matter how hard I tried not to.

The realisation that as you said apple2, all we are doing is letting ourselves get hurt. That will never stop unless we stop it. It's hard to be the one to stop it, it's hard to take the stance that must be taken, but it must be done. We deserve to be in a safe, caring relationship, not a cruel soul destroying one.

[apple2]

It's hard to be the one to stop it, it's hard to take the stance that must be taken, but it must be done. We deserve to be in a safe, caring relationship, not a cruel soul destroying one.

Exactly. It's also very hard for me. I still need to fight with myself. Sometimes I really miss him, but I know if I go back, nothing good will come. I love him, but the relationship was like a bomb which can explode at any time. I could not focus on work. I needed to deal with confusion and sadness. I told myself to be stronger, but even my soul was destroyed, it cannot help him at all. As people here said to me, the only way to help him is to leave. Otherwise he would regard his behavior as ok.

[Infared]

Mine BPDexfiance is high functioning and while she knows there is some problem, she refuses to admit it, this is just how she is. She holds down jobs (changing every 2 years or so) and is good with money. My therapist said expect years of therapy if she'd stick to it, you have to find the core issues and then help mature the person for all the years they've been frozen by whatever that core trauma was.

Mine is also excellent at job. He also knows he has a problem, even he can figure it out. Eg he is crazy in emotional life, he is lack of empathy, but said he is so. He asked me do you think you can change me?

I can't, if he is fine with himself...

Eh hem... .you can't change him if he isn't fine with himself, either.  

[apple2]

Mine BPDexfiance is high functioning and while she knows there is some problem, she refuses to admit it, this is just how she is. She holds down jobs (changing every 2 years or so) and is good with money. My therapist said expect years of therapy if she'd stick to it, you have to find the core issues and then help mature the person for all the years they've been frozen by whatever that core trauma was.

Mine is also excellent at job. He also knows he has a problem, even he can figure it out. Eg he is crazy in emotional life, he is lack of empathy, but said he is so. He asked me do you think you can change me?

I can't, if he is fine with himself...

Eh hem... .you can't change him if he isn't fine with himself, either.  

Right!  Even in a normal relationship people can't change each other.