Frustrating triggered morning for me

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Well... .things have been really good for a week or two.  Even someone close to us would never thing there is anything amiss.

Yesterday... .helped my daughter move her horse... .it was enjoyable... .but physically taxing.  Horse doesn't like to load... .daughter hasn't had time to work with the horse for a while.

So... aches and pains and tired.  Wife let it be known she wanted to fool around... .I tried to deflect it some... gently... .then gave in... .after Ibuprofen and a hot shower... .  She seemed very appreciative... .I thought it was a good thing.

This morning... with the spring forward... .things were rushed to get to church.  I made some changes that she had requested in my morning routine... .basically to stay out her way in the bathroom.  She didn't acknowledge that at all. 

She leaves for church before me and I usually bring most of the kids.  So... she leaves and then it becomes obvious that my oldest daughter isn't coming... .even though I had gotten here up and told her she was coming... .and how much time she had left (due to the rush). 

When I questioned her... ."mommy said" I didn't have to.

So... I try to get the kids I can in the van and my oldest son (that is still living in the house) was the last out the door... .I had told him I was waiting on him... .he said he was getting dressed.

When I went back in to try to hurry him up... he now says he doesn't have to go because "mommy said".  I had earlier informed him he was going as well... .(we normally all go... .although sometimes people try to drop out because tired... .etc etc_)

Now the dog is in the house... .and won't leave (outside dog).  I asked my oldest daughter for help... .and thought she was putting him out.  Nope.  Asked my 7th grader... .(he apparently took him out and dog somehow got back in... .)  So... .I get left ejecting the untrained dog that won't listen to me... .and now have hair all over my Sunday clothes...


Guess who is back in the house... .I'm assuming just for the weekend.  yep... .the kid my wife was saying she was going to move in.  I get in van and he is causing a ruckus with whatever is on his phone.  I had to ask him/tell him  3-4 times to shut off the noise. 

Get to church... .they don't have diaper bag for baby.  Have to go home and get that.

So... since my wife is at church... .I leave kids and come home to chill out and prep for my trip for interview.  Texted her to call if she needed help getting kids home.

She shows up and home (apparently wasn't going to stay... and leave me there with kids)... .and yells at me for not letting her know that I wasn't at church.  I informed her of the text... .she says she doesn't have her phone and i should know that.  Lots of stomping around the house saying that she means nothing to me and if her name was Sarah I would have acted differently.

She is currently now at church... .I'm packed and ready to go. (I have an interview tomorrow)

My plan is to see if we can have a productive conversation when she gets home... .but if blame starts... I'm out of here... .and will clean up this mess later.

ff

[formflier]

Well... .things have been really good for a week or two.  Even someone close to us would never thing there is anything amiss.

Yesterday... .helped my daughter move her horse... .it was enjoyable... .but physically taxing.  Horse doesn't like to load... .daughter hasn't had time to work with the horse for a while.

So... aches and pains and tired.  Wife let it be known she wanted to fool around... .I tried to deflect it some... gently... .then gave in... .after Ibuprofen and a hot shower... .  She seemed very appreciative... .I thought it was a good thing.

This morning... with the spring forward... .things were rushed to get to church.  I made some changes that she had requested in my morning routine... .basically to stay out her way in the bathroom.  She didn't acknowledge that at all. 

She leaves for church before me and I usually bring most of the kids.  So... she leaves and then it becomes obvious that my oldest daughter isn't coming... .even though I had gotten here up and told her she was coming... .and how much time she had left (due to the rush). 

When I questioned her... ."mommy said" I didn't have to.

So... I try to get the kids I can in the van and my oldest son (that is still living in the house) was the last out the door... .I had told him I was waiting on him... .he said he was getting dressed.

When I went back in to try to hurry him up... he now says he doesn't have to go because "mommy said".  I had earlier informed him he was going as well... .(we normally all go... .although sometimes people try to drop out because tired... .etc etc_)

Now the dog is in the house... .and won't leave (outside dog).  I asked my oldest daughter for help... .and thought she was putting him out.  Nope.  Asked my 7th grader... .(he apparently took him out and dog somehow got back in... .)  So... .I get left ejecting the untrained dog that won't listen to me... .and now have hair all over my Sunday clothes...


Guess who is back in the house... .I'm assuming just for the weekend.  yep... .the kid my wife was saying she was going to move in.  I get in van and he is causing a ruckus with whatever is on his phone.  I had to ask him/tell him  3-4 times to shut off the noise. 

Get to church... .they don't have diaper bag for baby.  Have to go home and get that.

So... since my wife is at church... .I leave kids and come home to chill out and prep for my trip for interview.  Texted her to call if she needed help getting kids home.

She shows up and home (apparently wasn't going to stay... and leave me there with kids)... .and yells at me for not letting her know that I wasn't at church.  I informed her of the text... .she says she doesn't have her phone and i should know that.  Lots of stomping around the house saying that she means nothing to me and if her name was Sarah I would have acted differently.

She is currently now at church... .I'm packed and ready to go. (I have an interview tomorrow)

My plan is to see if we can have a productive conversation when she gets home... .but if blame starts... I'm out of here... .and will clean up this mess later.

ff

[Notwendy]

It just sounds like a chaotic morning with the time change and getting everyone ready.  It is frustrating and it is no wonder you were frustrated. It's easy to forget something the kids need when everyone is rushing.

FF- to me, much of the issues is the disconnect in your style of parenting and your wife's style and miscommunication between the two of you as to who's going to church, who is taking who.

The mom in me is thinking that with all those kids- the diaper bag should be packed and ready to go the night before and placed at the front door. This was just a crazy morning, and you forgot it. Those things happen, which is one reason I had diapers everywhere.

In addition, a spare is in each car. It doesn't have to be a fancy nice bag- but one with diapers, wipes, spare clothes, plastic bags for wet ones, and snacks.

Then, a discussion about who goes to church, who stays home, under what circumstances. If mom and dad have different rules, kids will do just that- "but dad said" "but mom said".

Otherwise it just sounded like a crazy morning- which can happen with families.

I'd let the Sarah comment go... .although I'd be tempted to come back with a retort like "ok, can I have a second wife then?   but don't.

[NGU]

Formflier: Hope you can mentally recover before the interview.

"ok, can I have a second wife then?

I feel bad about this, but when things got really tough a few months ago, that's what I was thinking. And I was shocked to feel that I wouldn't have any guilt about it. There had been no intimacy for months, and I was starting to get extremely frustrated and... .um... .peckish. I actually looked to see if there was a SAA meeting somewhere so I could talk it out, but just knowing there was a group nearby did the trick. Some days, it's all I can do to push down the urge to leave. But I know that feeling is temporary.

[Cole]

Sell this to one of the networks, it would make a great sitcom plot!

Glad you were able to keep it together after the morning you had. I would have been in a bad enough mood by then to take the bait on the Sarah comment. Good job.

Is Sarah an ex wife? I get the ex wife and high school girlfriend (last saw in 1986!) tossed up a couple times a month with the same type of comment, "If I was so-and-so you would ... ."    

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .the triggers sound like the normal chaos of herding all the cats in a family that size to me... .

It sounds like you've done about all you have the energy to do about it right now... .

... .and don't have any left to deal constructively if (when?) your wife becomes argumentative and invalidating to you.


All I can say is put your own oxygen mask on first--make sure that none of the kids or animals are getting injured and give yourself as much space as you need to find some peace. 

When you are feeling more grounded, put energy into validating your wife more... .probably after your interview, possibly well after it.

[Notwendy]

I was assuming, since it was church, that Sarah was a biblical reference.

Sarah thought she was not able to have children, so she suggested to her husband, Abraham, to take on another wife, so he could have an heir, which he did. According to Jewish and Christian traditions, that second wife situation didn't turn out so well... .

Sarah is an honored figure in the Bible which is why I assumed this is why she brought it up to FF. Since having more than one wife was accepted in those times, I thought well, that could be a snarky retort but don't really say it.

[NGU]

I usually bring most of the kids.

I don't even need to know how many kids you have. I think that portion of your sentence says enough.

You need immediate props for the amount you are juggling right now. Looking past any of your own possible problems you might be bringing to the table, you are a much better person than I am.

[vortex of confusion]

My plan is to see if we can have a productive conversation when she gets home... .but if blame starts... I'm out of here... .and will clean up this mess later.

If you are getting ready for an interview, do you think it is wise to try to have a productive conversation?

Can you validate her feelings and say something like, "I know you were upset at what happened this morning. I would like to talk about it when I get home from my interview."

It sounds like you are hanging on by a thread because of all that you do. Keep yourself in a good head space for that interview. Good luck with it!

[Notwendy]

I agree that I have to hand it to FF to getting the kids up, dressed and out of the house.

[formflier]

 

Interview was next day... .I was going to leave on a trip... .and I didn't want to leave on a bad note.

We had an ok talk... .and talked about it in MC on Tuesday.

She was very minimalistic about it... .she "just got mad".

We did get to have some discussions about "theory" of arguing... .which I plan to keep pushing.

My style... .If I get upset... .I will tell you about my feelings...

Wife's style... .if she gets upset... .she tells me about my feelings (and get it wrong).  Very rare that in the "heat of the moment" that she "owns her feelings"

Some awareness and promises to do better about this... .still some "my feelings are your fault" stuff coming from her.  However... .it was a productive conversation in MC.

Also was a productive conversation on Sunday afternoon before I left.  She did get to the point where she saw that my actions had nothing to do with her... .

Also had a decent conversation in MC about not assuming actions are about you... .that the majority of time she says I am doing something for the sole purpose of angering her... .I have not even considered her... .one way or another.

My goal... .out of the MC talk is to move in a direction where I "get upset"... .and I tell her about my feelings... .and if she gets upset... .she tells me about her feelings. 

No chance to argue... .most likely will get a compassionate or empathetic response from me... .since she has not invalidated me... .and I have not invalidated her.

Fingers crossed we can make progress here.

She is not fessing up to using another woman's name... .so... .I dropped it.  But... .99.9% sure she was not talking bionically.  The tone, style everything else about the delivery was like when she is bringing up a name of one of the women that I am after... .or are after me.

Sigh... .

In other news.  Nailed the interview.  It was second interview with same place.  I'm 1 of 3 candidates.  Seems like a good fit to me

[Grey Kitty]

  Hope you get a job offer out of it!

We did get to have some discussions about "theory" of arguing... .which I plan to keep pushing.

My style... .If I get upset... .I will tell you about my feelings...

Wife's style... .if she gets upset... .she tells me about my feelings (and get it wrong).  Very rare that in the "heat of the moment" that she "owns her feelings"

Remember where you have influence and where you don't. That is YOUR role in both versions. Here are some ideas:

If you get upset... .think seriously about whether your wife will be receptive to your feelings AT THAT TIME. And think about if you are capable of presenting them to her in a way that she can be receptive to or not.

Owning and acknowledging your feelings is great. Sharing them with your wife may or may not be helpful depending upon circumstances. (Think about prior outcomes of this, good and bad)

If your wife gets upset and tells you about your feelings... .what can you do?

Hint: Telling her that she is wrong about your feelings will invalidate her, and nothing good will come of that when she's already upset.

My recommendation is refuse to engage under those circumstances. A boundary of not listening to her telling you about your feelings might be appropriate. "I will not listen to you tell me what I'm feeling." (end of conversation) Gives her an opportunity to step back and ASK what you are feeling... .wait for her to ask.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... I hope I get an offer as well... .


Yesterday went ok... .one conversation was odd and triggering for me... where she proceeded to inform me of how I like to be on the computer... .that's what I do to relax... .etc etc.

She wasn't upset... .mad... .or at least it didn't seem so.  We were working out what I thought was some normal parenting stuff about which kid was doing what... .and our expectations.

This morning went south quick. 

Some relation to previous day as kids didn't do what we talked about... .as a result of not "paying attention" to what they are doing with the dishwasher... .several parts of it got broken or degraded... .result was dishing piling up and what they were trying to wash... .wasn't getting clean.

Wife was a little bit in high warble over this... .saying I should get someone to fix it (we have a warranty).

This morning... .she sleeps in until 10 or 1030 (no idea why... .).   So I handle kids and investigate the dishwasher. 

As I suspected... nothing was "broken"... .but all kids of stuff was in there that shouldn't be (grass, paper, the list goes on... .clogged stuff up)  Wouldn't be covered by warranty... .so... .I spent a couple hours fixing/cleaning it... .the baby helped.

Good grief... .when I say baby... .she is almost 2.  Time flies.

Anyway... .she stomps downstairs.  Starts banging around sorting things in drawers and "instructs" me about the tupperware being in the wrong place and that where I put it was the "lazy ass way of doing things... ."

Very first words spoken to me in the morning... .after a hard and frustrating morning... .

I tried to speak to her in a kind voice... .let her know dishwasher was fixed... .and that I would like to talk to her in few minutes when she had time... .

"I don't think that is a good idea"... ."I can't put up with you starting your bs (she said the long version of bs)"

At that point... .I was triggered  (I should have left room on first slam of drawer... .or tried a tool or something)... .words were exchanged... .and she kept harping that "nobody can correct me (ff)"

I finally wised up and exited the room.

She was "venting" in the room... .talking loudly to herself.  I (unwisely) went back in room to get a portable phone... .so I could go try to be productive... .  I ... of course... .couldn't leave it alone and asked her who she was talking to... .she started yelling about how she was talking to herself and would like to be left alone to do so.  I left room.


Anyway... .one of the "tools" we have been talking about in MC is passing notes to each other.

Later on I went down and handed her a note... .apologized for raising my voice and let her know I would like to speak to her when she felt like it.

We'll see... .

I definitely feel "off my game... ."  hard to express.  I remember in the past that I was successful about letting stuff slide off me... .I've certainly advised others to do that... .for some reason... it's not working anymore... .

Sigh... .

[Grey Kitty]

  Tough day. You will make it through.

Meanwhile... .time for a little radical acceptance of yourself.

You always do your best in situations like this. Some days your best is better than it is on other days. This is one of the "other" days. 

I try to cut myself some slack and be mindful that I can't handle conflict well some times... .and that the BEST I could do at those times was avoid handling it badly.


Your mind and heart will be in a better place to deal with her later.


And when you want to talk and she says something like:

"I don't think that is a good idea"... ."I can't put up with you starting your bs (she said the long version of bs)"

Please believe her and help her--She is doing the best she can at the same thing--avoiding handling a conflict in a bad and hurtful way with you.

[formflier]

 

She responded to the note... .the talk went better than I thought it would.

I was able to stay calm and express myself... .good.

She struggled... .did lots of eye rolling... .huffing and puffing... .

Said she felt "fine" (yeah... .said it "that" way).  Basically she didn't want to talk about how she felt.

I wouldn't be able to do any justice to a word for word or anything close... .here is quick summary.

I thanked her again for bringing up the concept of invalidation (several months back... .no idea where she got it... ) and that we should strive to avoid doing this to each other.  I expressed that we had made strides and that I invited her to let me know if she thought I was telling her what her feelings are or otherwise saying her feelings are wrong.

That I was on edge and hurt over unsolicited comments from her yesterday about my enjoyment of working on my laptop or computer.  She basically said it was my biggest joy... .and was something I should give up for lent.   It was especially hurtful for me because we had a couple of conversations lately where I told her I couldn't stand the sight of it... .and went for days without touching the computer. 

Basically and "you like it... .no I don't thing". 

No empathy or apology or any of that from her. 

I asked her that in the future if she wanted to discuss my enjoyment... .or non enjoyment of something... .to ask about my feelings first... .rather than put me in a position of having to disagree with her about my feelings.

She huffed about this and stomped out... .saying she had to go... .and that she wasn't going to ask... .because behaviors are plain to see.

Sigh... .


I asked and she did say that we could talk more later about this.

[Rapt Reader]

I used to stand on that hill in the past (my Husband telling me what my own feelings were), and get my dander up and defend myself.

Now I just use Validation:

"I can see how you might see it that way (or feel that way)... ." and then remove myself from the conversation.

Or if the situation requires it (if the Validation alone doesn't calm my Husband down), I might expand it to S.E.T.:

"I can see how you might see it that way (or feel that way)... .

I might feel that way, too, if someone did that (said that, looked at me that way, used that tone of voice, used the laptop when he wanted attention, etc.).

I wasn't trying to annoy you (hurt you, anger you, etc.); I had to send that one email and then got distracted... .(or whatever the offense was about)"

I realize that my Husband will sometimes look at my behaviors differently than I do, and I don't take that personally anymore. In fact, the Validation isn't even hard anymore; knowing how his mind sees things, I know immediately when he's dysregulated over something why he is hurting or angry. Validation these days nip it in the bud before it gets worse than just an initial dysregulation in him, and things calm down quickly.

I don't seem to need to make his misreading of my feelings or intentions a battle hill to die on anymore... .I'm pretty much more interested in helping him not feel hurt about the situation.

[Cat Familiar]

My recommendation is refuse to engage under those circumstances. A boundary of not listening to her telling you about your feelings might be appropriate. "I will not listen to you tell me what I'm feeling." (end of conversation) Gives her an opportunity to step back and ASK what you are feeling... .wait for her to ask.

Very good suggestion, Grey Kitty. It drives me batsh!t when my husband tells me what I'm feeling and HE GETS IT WRONG! Then of course, he refuses to hear me out when I try to tell him how I really feel (JADEing).

[Cat Familiar]

That I was on edge and hurt over unsolicited comments from her yesterday about my enjoyment of working on my laptop or computer.  She basically said it was my biggest joy... .and was something I should give up for lent.   It was especially hurtful for me because we had a couple of conversations lately where I told her I couldn't stand the sight of it... .and went for days without touching the computer. 

Basically and "you like it... .no I don't thing". 

No empathy or apology or any of that from her. 

I asked her that in the future if she wanted to discuss my enjoyment... .or non enjoyment of something... .to ask about my feelings first... .rather than put me in a position of having to disagree with her about my feelings.

She huffed about this and stomped out... .saying she had to go... .and that she wasn't going to ask... .because behaviors are plain to see.

Sigh... .


I asked and she did say that we could talk more later about this.

I'm having a hard time with this, formflier, because it is delving into personal territory of who you are and what you do and to me is terribly invalidating. If you were to be so focused on computer related things that you didn't do your share of household tasks, that would be a different issue. But it seems to me that your wife is putting you on the defensive for being you. And that's not OK. Maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't think you need to defend something that you enjoy and it certainly is not her business to tell you what you should give up for Lent.

[formflier]

But it seems to me that your wife is putting you on the defensive for being you. And that's not OK. Maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't think you need to defend something that you enjoy and it certainly is not her business to tell you what you should give up for Lent.

Yes... that is a good way of saying it.

Maybe another way is that she is insisting that her "version" of me... .is the correct one.

She had brought up the lent subject earlier... .it seemed to me that she was "offering up" that the family should turn off the TV for lent... .focus more on family conversations and all of that.

I loved that idea... .and I think my wanting to act on her idea was what got this on her mind.  (I'm guessing here... .so... could be wrong... )

What I think she was trying to say is that since she enjoys tv and I do not (I actually enjoy it... .but this wasn't invalidating to me... .) that I had to do something that "counted" for lent.

Since "all I do" is be on my computer and that "is what I enjoy"... etc etc that is what I should give up.

My reality is that during my job search I have spent tons more time on my computer over the past few months than I normally do.  I'm sick of looking at it.  I've been absent from these boards alot because I'm tired of staring at a computer screen and have been busy doing non-computer stuff (nothing against you guys!  It's the computer... not you)

Anyway... .we've talked about my feelings on "my job" looking for a job... .and how I'm tired of the computer... etc etc

So... that is most likely why if felt so bad... .so invalidating to me... .

Because... .I do enjoy watching tv... .I would miss it... .  Granted... .I don't watch much of it.

Anyway... .update on things.

She sent a decent text to me saying she understood about the feelings thing ... but didn't want "every observation of hers to be wrong... "

We said via text we would spend more time together last night.

I asked her after kids went to bed if she was coming up to bed.  She said she would be up in few minutes.

This morning I found her asleep on the couch. 

I asked her if she was feeling ok... .she didn't respond.

I asked her if she wanted to go on a walk with me.  She asked what time it was.  I told her.

So... I'm heading out to enjoy a walk this morning.  Try to get some positive momentum going on my day.

Trying to have the attitude that whatever she has going on is not going to affect me.  I know I need to get my armor built back up... .stuff has been getting to me that normally doesn't.

I'll try to respond to other comments later today

FF

[Notwendy]

IMHO, giving up the computer for lent would be counter productive. People use the computer now for everything- communication, work, and your job search. It would be like giving up the telephone. Yes, you enjoy it, but it has become an essential in modern day life.

To me, personally, giving something up should be challenging, but doable, and something that you can do without - and not cause harm to your livelihood, since that is important to the family survival.

[Notwendy]

My take on your wife's behavior is that it has to do with control. It seems a bit passive agressive- saying she is coming to bed with you to avoid a confrontation and then, sleeping on the couch. Since I don't know her, or the whole of it, I may be way off here.

One reason people can do this is when they feel powerless themselves, such as she feels controlled or powerless in the r/s. Another reason is that this is how some families operate- by not being direct with each other- and so they act in passive agressive ways- which is what they learn to do as adults.

[formflier]

 

I'll come back to the other comments later.

Went on a walk... .enjoyed it.  Walked in the door and she is on the couch under the covers.

She waits... maybe 10 seconds... .and as I am hurrying to the bathroom... .says "where have you been?"

I say... ."on a walk... .I've got to pee... .I'll be back in a sec... "

So... as I'm in the bathroom... with the noise of my tinkling going on... she is yammering on about something.

I walked back into the room and she is quiet.  I tried to relate something interesting to her that I saw during my walk... .she gave a "never thought of that response... .never had that happen" (I had seen someone... that looked exactly like someone else... doppelganger thing)

Anyway... .she says... .so this entire time you have been walking?  (me... yes)  Did you stop and talk to anyone (me... no)

She gets up and stomps out of the room... .flings some words back over her shoulder on the way out... ."I don't believe you... .and I don't care... ."

Into the bathroom to start taking a shower... .I'm upstairs eating a bowl of cereal.

typing away.

No triggering for me in this instance... .she expressed her opinion... .I decided not to fling any words back.

[formflier]

 

After shower... she comes up to room... .I initiate conversation about logistics for getting to our kids play at school today.

We work that out and then she goes over the walk again.

So... I was walking the entire time... .(yes)

I didn't talk to anyone (no)

Did I go anywhere and hang out (no)

Did I stop along the way so that it would take a long time and make her suspicious (no)

So... you are telling me that you walked slow because you are hurting (yes)

I then said that due to some of the physical projects around the house... .my back and legs have been hurting more than usual... the walk help loosen them and that they did loosen up some... .but I needed to stretch a bunch

No triggering on my part... she seemed calm.

There was a pause for a good minute or two and she moved about the room.

I asked her if she had any thoughts about how to handle a possible discipline issue with our 7th grader.

He has been playing with matches... .apparently... still sorting this out.

She says... ."its sort of like how you always keep booze in your trunk when you were a teenager"

No idea if this was a provocation... .but I didn't bite and indicated to her that I didn't understand how that was relevant

to how I deal with our child this weekend.

She doesn't respond.

She starts to leave the room... .and I asked again if she had any new thoughts on how I should handle him... .what we should talk about this weekend when I spend time with him.

She now goes back into stomping out and flinging words over her shoulder mode... ."you didn't like my idea... .so we're done talking... "  stomp stomp stomp

[Grey Kitty]

Sounds like it has been some tough times... .and you sound like you are getting back more into your groove and you are doing better now.

Back to Lent... .I've never done that practice, so perhaps I don't understand it... .but I'm wondering... .

One adult telling another adult what they should give up for Lent? Really? Seriously?

I thought it was a personal thing where you chose what you wanted to give up for your own spiritual journey, for your personal reasons. (My favorite story... .an old friend of mine long ago decided to give up underwear for Lent... .probably in high school... .her mom was PISSED, but couldn't do anything about it  )

If it is different for you, your household, or your church, never mind me... .but I did want to check on that... .because it just sounded like nasty controlling behavior that you shouldn't accept.

[formflier]

 

We walk to the school to see the play.  She walks 10-15 paces in front of me the entire time.

On the way back she walks about 5 paces in front of me.

I stayed at even gate the entire time.

Some brief and pleasant conversation about the schedule for the weekend... and now she is in the kitchen doing something... .and I'm up here typing.

I am in much better place today than yesterday.  She said yesterday that she wanted to talk more about the "invalidation thing"... but that didn't happen... .she seemed avoidant and then slept on couch.

I will test the waters today during nap time to see if any conversation is possible... .let alone that one.

I seem to be in much better place today than yesterday... .my guess is she is "testing" me

[formflier]

My take on your wife's behavior is that it has to do with control. It seems a bit passive agressive- saying she is coming to bed with you to avoid a confrontation and then, sleeping on the couch. Since I don't know her, or the whole of it, I may be way off here.

One reason people can do this is when they feel powerless themselves, such as she feels controlled or powerless in the r/s. Another reason is that this is how some families operate- by not being direct with each other- and so they act in passive agressive ways- which is what they learn to do as adults.

Yes... .I agree this could be PA... .my understanding of PA is that it also has to do with intent.

She used to regularly accuse me of being PA... .when it would come up during counseling the counselors were trying to get me to be less direct... .less aggressive. 

I really have no idea how to counter PA behavior... .or if there is an appropriate counter.

[formflier]

I used to stand on that hill in the past (my Husband telling me what my own feelings were), and get my dander up and defend myself.

Yeah... .I'm trying to figure out what is worth "fighting for"... .and what is not.

Stomping around... .muttering in another room... .in fact a lot of the behaviors are ones that I can see myself dealing with ... .long term.

I realize that I can't... .and even shouldn't have a relationship that is "all my way... "... .but I'm trying to figure out which behaviors are movable to a better place... .and which are not... .and which are worth trying over.

Separate argument over how best to try to move behaviors that I care about. 

Anyway... .I'm sure I care about being told about my feelings.  It's worth a lot of effort on my part to make it better.

I've had success getting other behaviors to a better place... .I'm hoping that persistence will pay off with this effort.

Rapt,

Was there a turning point for you... .where you gave up the fight... .or changed tactics?   

FF

[KateCat]

Would it make sense for your wife to feel powerless and controlled because of the involvement of therapists with the family? Could she feel that you are responsible for this?

I think you are doing really, really well under tough circumstances. But also wonder if your wife has been able to process her feelings about the family events of the past year.

[formflier]

If it is different for you, your household, or your church, never mind me... .but I did want to check on that... .because it just sounded like nasty controlling behavior that you shouldn't accept.

Love the story!

Yeah... I'm feeling better... .even though my body is still grumpy... .the walk did a world of good for my thinking.

We haven't made lent a big deal.  Wife brought it up... .I thought I was going to be supportive and pick something as a family... .or as parents.

But... .honestly... .I consider myself a conservative Christian... .yet I've never regularly given things up.

I don't think my wife has either... .

No underwear... .    

Anyone dare me to propose that to my wife?    

[Ophelia71]

I can understand a frustrating trigger emotions. A couple of days ago. I am hard of hearing so naturally I do not hear everything in spite of getting new hearing aids. I accidently left my bathroom sink water on and it overflowed in onto my floor. My husband started flipping out, yelling at me, and calling me names. You see he really over reacts terribly because he thinks the worse of everything which I think it stem from his PTSD, not the BPD, but sure that combination is no help. So what was running through his mind is that the water could have hit our wiring downstairs and that I "ruined" the hot water tank. Then he added that the light was flickering. I always know that he goes overboard and exaggerates to make me feel bad than I was already feeling. The thing of it is, I have become so immune to that, it had turned into anger. While he was flipping out at me, I told him to leave and to leave me alone. I was not going to talk to him while he is acting this way. Once he was calm and he realized the extent of his anger. He comes in to our bedroom and seen me crying. He hates seeing me cry. He did apologize to me. He knows he needs help but will not go see a therapist. I am grateful that he recognize his issue, but I really wish he sees someone to be able to control his outrageous anger. I told him I love him, but do not love the one part of his brain that controls his BPD. I told him that part is the Ass Syndrome that I can't deal with, he hugged me tighter. I try really hard not to invalidate his feelings, but ugh I have my own issues. I do not like being yelled at. I was abused as a child, was in a verbally abusive marriage in my first marriage, and thank god he does not act like that all the time, but when he does it is so hard. I am looking at having surgery for my back and I know this will trigger his emotion because he does love me, but cannot handle any suffering or pain I may go through. It is hard on him. Right now we have a dog that is dying of cancer. He cried at the thought of losing her, he wants to save her. Seeing him be like that is the reason why I love him, because deep down I see the goodness and kindness in him.

[formflier]

Would it make sense for your wife to feel powerless and controlled because of the involvement of therapists with the family? Could she feel that you are responsible for this?

I think you are doing really, really well under tough circumstances. But also wonder if your wife has been able to process her feelings about the family events of the past year.

It has been a while since my wife has said she feels controlled... .my guess is that she still does but doesn't want to "help me understand"

Most of the time that phrase calms things down and we get to better place.

When she is a saying that I am the controlling one... .and then her explanations point to her being controlling... .or she has to explain why she "had to" control... .she will try to avoid having those conversations.

One thing that seems to bug her is when she gets an idea... .and I end up being the one liking it. 

I was not a fan (initially) of the Family Therapist or the way my wife got me there.  Turns out to be the best thing for me and my family.  She was all for it when the focus was on me... .or the family... .but when the focus turned to her role in things... she was not as positive about it.

She has said several times in MC that she is happy with "the place" her family is at now and seems to honestly recognize that we are in a better place. 

One interesting thing from this post.  I'm not sure that I understand what my wife "processing her feelings about the past year would look like... ."

Hmmm

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I used to stand on that hill in the past (my Husband telling me what my own feelings were), and get my dander up and defend myself.

Yeah... .I'm trying to figure out what is worth "fighting for"... .and what is not.

Stomping around... .muttering in another room... .in fact a lot of the behaviors are ones that I can see myself dealing with ... .long term.

I realize that I can't... .and even shouldn't have a relationship that is "all my way... "... .but I'm trying to figure out which behaviors are movable to a better place... .and which are not... .and which are worth trying over.

(I think I've shared before that being told what I'm feeling or why I was doing something was a real hot button area for me too. When I learned to disengage, it got better for me.)

Don't fight to change your wife's behavior. You will lose. VERY BADLY. And so will she and the rest of the family. The only way to win that game is not to play.

You can protect yourself from her behavior. Mostly by refusing to be present for it. If she is muttering, don't ask about it, and try to be far enough away from her that you don't even hear it. Any discussions where she tells you what your feelings are end immediately. Zero participation on your part.

Protecting your children from her behavior is a lot trickier to accomplish, and you really do have to pick your battles there. Fortunately, that area sounds a lot better than it was months ago.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .I see that Grey.

The tough thing about ending conversations is that then the conversation doesn't happen... .or at best is significantly delayed.

So... .if I'm trying to stay focused on sorting out a discipline issue with kids... .or something important... .that's tough because then I get asked why I left... .or that I chose to end the conversation... .so she gets to do what she wants.

But... .there is no doubt that I would have been better off to have either left the conversation immediately when she described my feelings about computers... .or addressed the issue right then.  (I was trying to stay on topic)

Then... .I got to thinking about it... .

Grey... .sounds like the key for you was to just walk away... .everytime.  If I remember right... .your wife became more self aware.

Did she ever become aware or admit that you are the only person that can know your feelings?

[Rapt Reader]

Rapt,

Was there a turning point for you... .where you gave up the fight... .or changed tactics?   

FF

Yeah, one night last Summer or so, when the dysregulation absolutely knocked me for a loop and boggled my mind. I'd taken a shower preparing for later that evening, and while in the shower he got on the phone with a family member. Since he was otherwise occupied, instead of putting on some slinky nightgown, I put on a tee shirt and shorts since I would be walking around the house.

When off the phone, I expected we would end up in the bedroom, but instead he asked to go on the screened-in porch at the back of the house and listen to music. No biggie; I figured he wanted to relax a bit first. I'd gotten some photos (or something) in email from our youngest son, and asked him if he wanted to see them, so I brought my laptop (or tablet?) out to the porch with me to show him.

After looking at the pictures, we were still listening to the music, so I moved on over to other email and within a few minutes he got up, shut off the music, and walked another part of the house. Taking this as my cue, I shut the device and went after him to go to the bedroom--but he was already angry. When I asked him what was wrong (totally naïve about it), he got very stern and angrily said that "You didn't give me any indication that you were interested in anything tonight! You were not interested, and now you are?" (along those lines).

Wow! How weird! I just looked at him quizzically, but he was ranting about my not being interested in intimacy, and at that moment I realized that he had misread the whole night, but there would be nothing I could say at that time that would change it. I marveled at how his head worked (my wearing a tee shirt and shorts instead of a nightgown, then looking at my email apparently signaled disinterest, when I was just reacting to circumstances).

And I felt truly sorry for him, for his taking a very innocent evening--which could've ended in intimacy--and for his turning it into a crisis, a tragic situation to him and his ego, and a whole universe of pain for him. He really was in pain over this, and I just listened to his complaints, stayed close to him (we were in bed), and didn't say one word actually.

I was so detached from thinking it was my fault in any way, knew for certain that his interpretation of my own thoughts and feelings was incredibly "off", and also knew for certain that there was not one thing I could ever say that would change his mind at that point. We fell asleep, and by the next morning he was "normal" and the dysregulation had passed.

In the past, I would've JADED and we would have been awake for hours "trying to work it out", and the next few days would've been very tentative between us. I don't ever do that anymore, and just like this major dysregulation was gone by morning, things have gone much smoother ever since. I just really feel so compassionate for how easily his feelings get hurt, and I don't want him to feel that pain... .So if this is the way to make it stop, I can do it... .

[KateCat]

\I'm not sure that I understand what my wife "processing her feelings about the past year would look like... ."

Hmmm

FF

My thought was that you called the child agency folks last year in order to protect your children, when you found your wife in a panicked state of dissociation appearing to endanger several of the kids.

So, could she be feeling a lot of shame and confusion about that episode? Or could she not understand what happened and just think that you continue to do your mysterious things for your mysterious reasons? Like wanting to be with other women?

ADDED: I think you're getting masterful advice on this thread.

[formflier]

 

KateCat,

Regarding that episode. She seems to have the impression that she "won". 

DSS has to follow law in NC.  So... there were no marks... .therefore no abuse.  We got a letter saying the complaint was "unsubstantiated".

I'm not sure how she views Family T... .hasn't been spoken of in a while.

To my knowledge... .there has been NO corporal punishment of any kind in the house since then.

The time out thing and other ways of consequences (grounding... etc etc) for children seem to be doing ok for us.

[Notwendy]

" "You didn't give me any indication that you were interested in anything tonight! You were not interested, and now you are?" (along those lines).

Wow! How weird! I just looked at him quizzically, but he was ranting about my not being interested in intimacy, and at that moment I realized that he had misread the whole night, but there would be nothing I could say at that time that would change it. I marveled at how his head worked (my wearing a tee shirt and shorts instead of a nightgown, then looking at my email apparently signaled disinterest, when I was just reacting to circumstances).

And I felt truly sorry for him, for his taking a very innocent evening--which could've ended in intimacy--and for his turning it into a crisis, a tragic situation to him and his ego, and a whole universe of pain for him. He really was in pain over this, and I just listened to his complaints, stayed close to him (we were in bed), and didn't say one word actually. "


Rapt- this is so true. My H always tells me that I give no indication of being interested or not. I do- but he can not read it. Also he will get it in his head that I am, and then rage if I'm not, and also decide that I'm not, even when available to him.

I had my ah ha moment a while back too. I had chosen a gift for his mother. I have picked out most of the presents for her since we were married- birthdays, holidays. I wasn't sure what size she wore, so I asked his sister for advice. I had just relayed all that to him, showed him what I picked out, and a few hours later he raged at me for being rude to his mother. At that moment I realized that all I said to him a few hours ago didn't register. In the past, I would have JADED, but I realized it did no good. I also felt sorry for him to think that for all those years, how much of the love and kindness that I have showed him and his family was altered through his own pain?

[Grey Kitty]

The tough thing about ending conversations is that then the conversation doesn't happen... .or at best is significantly delayed.

You may have to say "You are telling me how I feel. That is not a subject I can discuss right now. Our child has been doing X and... ."

Refuse to engage on that aspect, and keep to the other topic if it is timely.

Or don't take it personally when she does it... .and validate how she feels hurt/betrayed/ignored/whatever [based on what she believes you are thinking!] ... .without either agreeing or disagreeing about your feelings/thoughts at all.

Grey... .sounds like the key for you was to just walk away... .everytime.  If I remember right... .your wife became more self aware.

Did she ever become aware or admit that you are the only person that can know your feelings?

Honestly I'd say that my wife was originally relatively high functioning on the BPD spectrum... .and recovered to a point too high functioning to be diagnosable with BPD over a year ago. In our conflicts over the last few months, she wasn't telling me what I thought or felt that I can remember. So yes, she did get better.



For me the key was not so much walking away as refusing to engage in something that was going to leave both of us feeling worse and nothing resolved when it was done! I would walk away if I needed to, but often I did not.

In fact as we were splitting, or perhaps I should say considering it, I was quite successful at shifting conversations clearly away from emotional minefields and toward more positive things, either fun or logistical. I did notice that she would tend to kitchen sink things still, and would toss things at me that would have just gotten us into a mess if I engaged them as they were... .but if I refused to engage on it, she cooperated with that, and probably appreciated the effort on my part.

[formflier]

You may have to say "You are telling me how I feel. That is not a subject I can discuss right now. Our child has been doing X and... ."

I'm liking this... .

I've tried variations of this... .but left off the "right now" part.  Staying on subject can get tricking in conversations with her.

Did you (or anyone else) find a way to successfully get back to the original subject.

She keeps wanting to make  "a point" about things that I honestly rarely make a connection to the original subject

I've tried to schedule time to talk about her issue later.  I've tried to negotiate... ."ok lets handle your issue now and come back to our original one after that... ok?"  guess what... .we rarely get back.

She has clearly indicated in counseling she is ok with several things (subjects) at once... .I'm not.

If it's unimportant... .I don't care.  But if trying to make a decision or communicate about important things... .it is frustrating.

[Grey Kitty]

Know what is under you control and what is under hers.

You cannot make her talk about anything she doesn't want to talk about.

She cannot make you talk about anything you don't want to talk about.

Those are fundamental. Don't forget either one of them.

You can both ask to talk about something that may not seem relevant/important/whatever at the time.

You don't have to make a "deal" (We'll talk about your topic first). Haven't you gotten burnt by deals before?

And most important--Learn that when you are triggered is a HORRIBLE time for you to talk about anything... .and when she is triggered is a HORRIBLE time to talk about anything. Better to wait for a 'later' that may not happen than to get in a fight that only makes things worse!

And yep, staying on subject can be a challenge... .my wife was prone to kitchen-sinking things at me. I think that in general, women's minds do connect things a lot more than men's minds, so part of this is just how we think respectively. Not that either one is 'right' or 'wrong', just that they are different. I once saw a video about this... .rummaging around on youtube... .hey, I found it! There is both humor and truth in it... .only 5 minutes

https://youtu.be/0BxckAMaTDc

[Cole]

GK, Great video! Relevant to every couple in the world, BPD element or not.

FF, Throughout all the issues in the last week or two, has your wife told you what really put a burr under her saddle? Mine will rant and rave at me about one thing for weeks on end when it is actually something else that she is upset about.

Twice in this thread, the topic of other women has come up. First, the comment at Church and then the grilling when you had gone for a walk. Does your wife have some irrational suspicious that you are seeing someone? Mine goes into those phases where she gets very insecure and assumes I am looking to "replace her" as she puts it. The inherent fear of abandonment and lack of self worth associated with BPD seems to drive this to the extreme, but rather than vocalizing that particular fear, she will go off on something totally unrelated.   



 

[formflier]

FF, Throughout all the issues in the last week or two, has your wife told you what really put a burr under her saddle? Mine will rant and rave at me about one thing for weeks on end when it is actually something else that she is upset about.

Twice in this thread, the topic of other women has come up. First, the comment at Church and then the grilling when you had gone for a walk. Does your wife have some irrational suspicious that you are seeing someone? Mine goes into those phases where she gets very insecure and assumes I am looking to "replace her" as she puts it. The inherent fear of abandonment and lack of self worth associated with BPD seems to drive this to the extreme, but rather than vocalizing that particular fear, she will go off on something totally unrelated.     

No she has not said what she is really upset about.

The other women thing used to be huge.  In fact... .now that I think about it... .the mention of Sarah (which we never talked about again)... .was the first time other women have been brought up in many many months.

That is an area I have gotten some relative victory in.  For those new to my story... .this was a big deal for a long time.  She alleged I was chasing everything that moved that was female... .I alleged that if she would hush... .I would not have weird thoughts about other females... because she was the one putting them in my head with her questions and suggestions.

Then... .she sent me a naked picture of another woman via email.  I made a big deal about it to her an in MC.  And this issue went away (or in reality... .has gone to a much lower "thing" for her).

And... .yes... .life has been gloriously better without her yammering on about this or that woman... .

[formflier]

 

I suspect that whatever the "real" issue is/was has been put to bed for a while.

Last night was awesome.  She was in good mood... .I was in good mood.  We spent many hours together... .alone.  And some quality with our almost two year old.

She slept in bed with me... .had nice long snuggle this morning.  I was able to validate her first thing... .day seems to be off on right foot.

My biggest frustration with her sleeping other places in house... .is that I have had success with a slow wakeup... .lots of snuggling and validation to start day... .and then having a good day.

When she goes other places... .tends to be grumpier.

[Grey Kitty]

When she goes other places... .tends to be grumpier.

Correlation is not causation.

My suspicion is that she sleeps elsewhere because she is grumpy... .not the other way 'round.

Feelings often don't have any explicable reason/cause.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .you may be right about her choosing to sleep other places because of grumpiness.

[Cat Familiar]

Feelings often don't have any explicable reason/cause.

My husband often claims this is true for him. It's so different from my reality. I always know why I feel some way or what has precipitated the feeling. Feelings for me aren't random, just arising out of thin air.

I always assumed that my husband was just not willing (or able) to look within to understand the origins of his feelings.

[Grey Kitty]

Feelings often don't have any explicable reason/cause.

My husband often claims this is true for him. It's so different from my reality. I always know why I feel some way or what has precipitated the feeling. Feelings for me aren't random, just arising out of thin air.

I always assumed that my husband was just not willing (or able) to look within to understand the origins of his feelings.

I was remembering a story I heard about a respected Buddhist monk. Someone who was VERY self-aware and mindful. He was visited by the two teachers of my retreat. He said to them something like "I have been in a negative mood for 28 days now." In a conversational tone. Simply acknowledging that he was feeling that way, without any cause that he was aware of... .or anything that needed to be done to fix it.

I am usually aware of things that trigger my feelings. Often I later become aware of deeper history that underlies them. Still... .sometimes the feelings just come, of their own accord, and go of their own accord, just like the weather comes and goes with no reason in my life.

Whatever the source... .known or unknown... .the feelings are real. That's what matters most.

[Cat Familiar]

I am usually aware of things that trigger my feelings. Often I later become aware of deeper history that underlies them. Still... .sometimes the feelings just come, of their own accord, and go of their own accord, just like the weather comes and goes with no reason in my life.

Whatever the source... .known or unknown... .the feelings are real. That's what matters most.

WOW! 

I'm soo like a guy--I want to be in fix-it mode for my husband's feelings.   

[formflier]

 

I like to think of my feelings as an "indicator light" in an airplane. 

So... .for those non pilots out there... .we had several different warning and caution lights in the airplane.  The ones that would get your attention could have a bunch of different causes.  You had to look elsewhere to trace down why that "master" light came on.

Sometimes you wouldn't know exactly why it was on... .but you could figure out that something in a system (hydraulics, fuel, etc etc) had triggered it.

Anyway... .I like to think of a feeling... .especially a negative feeling... .is calling my attention to "look further" into the cause.

Many times... I'm just grumpy and I never put my finger on the exact reason.  Most of the time... .I get a pretty good idea.

And not that there is an exact "fix" for the feelings... .but... .I'm aware that I have anxiety over my oldest daughter applying to universities.  I'm pretty sure that she is going to get the one she wants... .that has a unique program she is interested in... .  Of course... .it's a long way away. 

I want her to grow and develop and chase her dreams... .I just wish she would do it from maybe... .10 minutes away for the next 20 years or so... .vice most likely being across the country this coming fall.   :'( :'(

But... .I did the same thing at her age... .and she is very much like me.

Anyway... .I use those feelings to motivate me to spend extra time with her.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I like to think of my feelings as an "indicator light" in an airplane. 

Good analogy. When it comes to feelings, you should be aware that occasionally the indicator light is wired to a system on a different plane than the one you are flying 

[Notwendy]

About the sleeping in a different bed--

Sometimes, if I am upset about something, it is easier for me to calm down if I am alone. This is especially if I have been in an argument with my H but it could be about anything. If I'm angry at him, it's hard to lie there next to him and be able to calm down. This is different for him- he seems to settle better when I am with him. However, it's strange to me for him to be angry and want me next to him. I can sense his anger and it is unsettling.

Another reason- and this may be something that is going on with your wife- is that sometimes a disagreement triggers shame in me. Since I have a mother with BPD, I recognize that this is something that can develop in such a family. It's something I've learned to recognize as what has contributed to the dysfunction in the way my H and I relate to each other. His disaproval or distress with me can trigger the kind of shame I felt around my parents when they didn't approve of me. This is one reason I could be so compliant and co-dependent around him. When shamed by my parents, I tried to be very good and make them happy to win their approval. I did the same thing with my H.

He was shamed as a child and is pretty good at "shaming" when he wants to- like correcting something I am doing, or pointing out any mistakes I make. When the shame is triggered, I really want to just be invisible- like I must have felt as a child- and go hide somewhere. Furthermore, being upset around him is really humiliating because then he flaunts about being the calm one and tells me how irrational I am.

As an adult, I recognize this now, and do better when I can have some time alone. This becomes triggering to my H as he sees it as a rejection of him. My not being in the bed with him triggers anxiety in him. I sometimes feel like his Teddy Bear. However, I am the opposite- I need to be alone to calm down. I feel safer when I know he doesn't see me upset.

Growing up with my mother led me to be very sensitive to how other people feel. It was survival. So being next to my H when he is out of sorts, or I am, isn't calming. Your wife grew up with these issues as well. Maybe sometimes it is overhelming to her and she needs to be alone. Also, I found I needed a transition between being with the kids and being with my H- some alone time to get my thoughts and feelings together.

Even if your wife is safe to be emotional with you, she may feel safer in a way, to not sleep with you when she is upset. Yes, this upsets you, but consider- perhaps it is more about her than you. Learning to calm herself down is a good skill- and maybe this is how she does it.

[KateCat]

I sometimes feel like his Teddy Bear.

Notwendy, it's striking how many thoughtful people, both lay and professional, evoke this image. I first encountered it in the works of Patricia Evans:

www.freemydaughters.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-custom.cgi?d=family-site&page=3545

[Notwendy]

Patricia Evans books were an eye opener. As I mentioned before, I grew up with extreme behavior on the part of my mother. However, even then, I was never physically abused. Because of this, I didn't really understand what emotional/verbal abuse was. Evan's books made me aware of the less familiar ideas of emotional and verbal abuse, including things like "eye rolling" and defining someone else's state and emotions. I think my H and I fit many of the ideas in her books, and thanks to some of her suggestions, I was able to change my response to some of it and it diminished. The "Teddy Bear" ideas resonated with me as I did think of that term before I read them.

This website you posted looks good and I am going to spend some time reading it- thanks.

[KateCat]

I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to understand, and it's encouraging that people are developing tools to overcome it. 

[formflier]

 

We've had a great week.  Weather warmed up and we spent several great evenings on the playground with all our kids... .did lots of stuff together as a family.  Top notch!

My biggest complaint (minor in the scheme of things) was that she chose to sleep somewhere else last night... .and this morning was griping at me/asking me why I didn't wake her up this morning... .was I going to let her be late to chaperone a school trip.

Rather than get into a thing over "understanding" how I was responsible for waking her up... I said that I decided to lay down for a few minutes after seeing our child off that gets on the bus first in the morning.

It was sort of a non answer... .but was what I was thinking and doing.  She hadn't asked me to help her get up... .so I didn't think of it.

Anyway... .returned to a good state quickly... .I think letting that slide was the right tactic/tool to use.

[Notwendy]

FF, I think you did the right thing by not JADEing or explaining yourself. You simply said that you wanted to lie down. You didn't get into the who's responsible for waking her up debate ( she is responsible for herself). It's natural that she was upset about being late and then blamed you ( or something besides herself) for it. But you didn't take that bait.

You have older kids so you know the idea of natural consequences. Of course, we parents protect kids from harmful ones, however, the best lesson for teaching them to be responsible for themselves is to let them experience the real life consequences- even if it is tempting to rescue them. So, if you oversleep, and are late for school, then you get a tardy. Get enough tardies, and you have to stay after school for detention for too many tardies. If you forget your sweater- then you feel cold, and so on. You know this, and it applies to everyone- even adults.

I recall a confusing event when I was a teen. My mom missed some kind of appointment- something I didn't even know about, and it was her responsibility to get there. She missed it and came raging after me " you made me miss my appointment".  Naturally, that left me very confused and thinking about how that could possibly be because she hadn't mentioned it to me, and it didn't have anything to do with me.

So good for you for not getting into "understanding" something that I think was her responsibility and she projected her angry feelings on to you.

I understand that it bothers you when she doesn't sleep with you, but it may be more about her than you. I know that if I am upset about something, I want to be alone. Also, if she is getting into that perimenopause stage, she may not be sleeping as well and gets up and down at night. Also - do you snore? If my H wakes me up too many times snoring- I sometimes sleep somewhere else for a night to catch up. It might not be something to make too much out of- even if you prefer she is with you every night.

[formflier]

 

It's been a while since I have explained "my part" of the sleep frustration.

On the outside... .if you knew me casually... .I would look like a completely normal guy.

I've actually got a number of service connected disabilities that have a big impact on my life.

Sleep is one of them. 

I have to were a CPAP machine and some braces on my arms.  I do much better on a very set schedule and even though I use an alarm... .I normally wake up a 5 minutes or so before my alarm every day.

Anyway... .because of the equipment I use... .changing beds is not an easy task.  It's one of the issues I took such a big stand about middle of the night rages... ."talks"... .questioning... .  It was a hill I was "prepared to die on... "  And it appears I have "won" that issue.  Mainly because the advice of get up and go to another room is incredibly difficult.

Staying asleep generally isn't an issue.  Getting untriggered and back to sleep has always been hard for me.  Having me, doctors, counselors, preachers tell her that raging at me in the middle of the night did little good for years... .until I found BPD family and understood that I was feeding the cycle... .so I stopped responding... .and calmly kept holding her responsible in appropriate counseling situations.

She says she enjoys the sound of cpap... .a rhythmic thing.

What we have both agreed is our favorite time together and she asked for... .and I changed my schedule to do... .is for me to stay in bed and snuggle with her in the morning.  Talking and validation seem to do great things here.  We usually pray together then.  Her idea... .but a great one.

She will notice and complain that we haven't prayed in a week... .or had good talks... .or whatever.  I will invite her to bed... .she will agree... .and... ."forget" "can't help it"... whatever.  She doesn't show. 

I make sure that it is a true invitation... .and not an offhand way to blame her for not being there... .or pointing out to her that it was her choice to not snuggle, pray, talk...

Wow... .that got a bit longer than I wanted. 

It's really been a good week.  I have an additional interview today with a place that I'm excited about... .I hope it goes well!  I'm ready for the job search to be over.

[Notwendy]

Thanks for explaining that. I understand your part of the sleep frustration. However, what is hers? It is her choice to leave and sleep on the couch, and you stay in the bed.

My H has his sleep needs too. I recall when we had those late night rages. How awful they are. Neither of us can get back to sleep, but I do better if I don't sleep next to him when either of us ( or both) are upset. Fortunately, using the tools and not JADE'ing have stopped the night rages, but it doesn't stop him or me from feeling angry sometimes.

Then, there are the physical issues-as you mentioned about yours. H is a very light sleeper and if he is woken up, he can't get back to sleep. He wants me to go to bed with him ( not about getting frisky here)  when he is going to bed for the reasons being that if I come to bed later and wake him up, then he can't fall asleep again. Most of the time I fall asleep too, but sometimes, if I am not sleepy, I end up lying there, afraid to move which would wake him up. Sometimes it is easier to just sleep somewhere else if I think I would rather get up or if I am not sleeping well.I respect his need to sleep by him staying in the bed- I don't ask him to leave, I just move.

Another one is boundaries. I grew up in a family with poor boundaries as it seems your wife did too. This results in me being over sensitive to someone's feelings. If my H is angry and lying next to me in bed, I am on high alert- hypervigilant. This is a remnant from childhood where if momma's not happy- everyone was in trouble. If I am sleeping somewhere else, alone, I can feel calmer and fall asleep.

Does this bother my H? Yes, but sleeping is part of me taking care of me. What I wonder about is if your wife just needs to sleep alone for her own reasons from time to time. When you invite her to sleep with you, and she says yes, and then doesn't, perhaps she is avoiding the confrontation. She may not even know why she needs to sleep by herself- it may be that she is sensitive like I am and feels she can calm down better. It could have nothing to do with you and something to do with her childhood. Maybe it has something to do with the "push pull" part of the r/s and she just needs to regroup sometimes.

Glad you had a good week and good luck on the interview!

[Grey Kitty]

FF, sounds like good progress in your world  

Then, there are the physical issues-as you mentioned about yours. H is a very light sleeper and if he is woken up, he can't get back to sleep. He wants me to go to bed with him ( not about getting frisky here)  when he is going to bed for the reasons being that if I come to bed later and wake him up, then he can't fall asleep again. Most of the time I fall asleep too, but sometimes, if I am not sleepy, I end up lying there, afraid to move which would wake him up. Sometimes it is easier to just sleep somewhere else if I think I would rather get up or if I am not sleeping well.I respect his need to sleep by him staying in the bed- I don't ask him to leave, I just move.

I think this is a good values compromise on your part. Your husband has a very valid desire not to be woken up when you come to bed late and be unable to fall back asleep.

Honoring that by sleeping elsewhere so as not to disturb him when you do not feel sleepy when he goes to bed, or slipping out quietly if you wake up / can't sleep is taking care of yourself, while minimizing the impact on him.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .interview went great... .fingers crossed that I get the job.  That would settle a big part of my life!

FF

[Notwendy]

GK thanks, this is how I see it, but sometimes my H sees it as me rejecting him and not wanting to be with him. I have explained it, but past that, it would be JADEing. In the end, it's about us getting the sleep we need. 

[Grey Kitty]

GK thanks, this is how I see it, but sometimes my H sees it as me rejecting him and not wanting to be with him. I have explained it, but past that, it would be JADEing. In the end, it's about us getting the sleep we need. 

I figured he wouldn't always see it that way. I ran into a very interesting and thoughtful discussion of abuse in relationships (Which did not specifically cite any mental illness, but reminded me of dozens of things I've read here in the past)... .here's a great quote:

people who abuse genuinely feel that if they tell a partner to do something and the partner doesn’t do it, they’re the ones being abused. I’ve talked to so many people who complain, “My partner isn’t doing what I tell them to!” It hurts me when my partner doesn’t let me control them! That’s abuse! My partner is abusing me by not obeying me!

And the sad part is that however clearly you see this happening, you get this concept past your partner's defenses. The best you can do is enforce your own boundaries to protect yourself... .as you are doing, Notwendy.

[Notwendy]

I think he does see it this way. Sometimes his language reflects that " you're hammering me, beating me. " I can be the nicest thing to him, and yet somehow he acts as is he is my victim sometimes, and that I have been very cruel to him. I have wondered sometimes who is this mean person he is describing to me as me.

[Grey Kitty]

@Notwendy, have you read the workshop on BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection ?

He's behaving that way. He doesn't like behaving that way, and cannot accept this part of himself. So he projects the behavior onto you... .and then attacks you for the very behavior he's pretending he's not doing. Since he's not aware of any of this when he does it, it is really hard for him to stop or change it.

[Rapt Reader]

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