Self-worth... looking at self-talk vs. action

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I've long said that I believe how people treat me more than I believe what they say about how they feel about me. ESPECIALLY when there is an apparent conflict.

The last couple days I've been pretty depressed. [With good reason] This is how I act when I'm depressed--Not tearful-sad--at least much., not incapable of doing things... .just for some reason I don't choose to do things that look very different than sitting in front of my computer. I'm not choosing to do things.

I was thinking about the whole concept of self-worth / self-loathing etc. I've known a lot of people who have very negative self-talk in their heads. I don't. I'm a bit discouraged at how little I'm accomplishing and how this has been a long pattern in my life; I beat myself up a little over it... .but that is the exception, not the rule. I don't say unkind things about myself in my head.

Negative self-talk really doesn't seem like a fruitful area for me to dig into--there just isn't a lot there.

However when I look at my ACTIONS, I'm not treating myself like I'm worthwhile or valuable. Here are examples... .

• I'm feeling lonely, depressed and isolated... .do I call up a friend? No... .I make myself an excuse why it isn't a good time to bother the friend. Even though I know the friend does care and would make time available for me even though it wasn't a really good time.



• I've got work I'd like to do on my boat. If I did it I'd be happy with the accomplishment and doing the work. But I don't do it either. I've put in a couple hours of work in the last four days, I think.



• I could do things to clean up the boat, take care of myself, making my home feel good and happier. I don't take the time to cook myself good food.



• I've been delaying sharpening my kitchen knives for a couple months (and counting), even though I enjoy the process and really like using good sharp knives.



• I'm staying up later than I like and sleeping later than I like... .and when I'm staying up, I'm not doing anything that seems important.



• I've let my daily meditation practice lapse in the last week or two.



• I want to exercise, and enjoy it; I've got a 1.5 mile loop I try to walk daily. I've skipped a lot of days there too.

I dunno. This sounds a lot like depression. And/or like I don't believe down at my core that I am worth it the effort.

[Grey Kitty]

I've long said that I believe how people treat me more than I believe what they say about how they feel about me. ESPECIALLY when there is an apparent conflict.

The last couple days I've been pretty depressed. [With good reason] This is how I act when I'm depressed--Not tearful-sad--at least much., not incapable of doing things... .just for some reason I don't choose to do things that look very different than sitting in front of my computer. I'm not choosing to do things.

I was thinking about the whole concept of self-worth / self-loathing etc. I've known a lot of people who have very negative self-talk in their heads. I don't. I'm a bit discouraged at how little I'm accomplishing and how this has been a long pattern in my life; I beat myself up a little over it... .but that is the exception, not the rule. I don't say unkind things about myself in my head.

Negative self-talk really doesn't seem like a fruitful area for me to dig into--there just isn't a lot there.

However when I look at my ACTIONS, I'm not treating myself like I'm worthwhile or valuable. Here are examples... .

• I'm feeling lonely, depressed and isolated... .do I call up a friend? No... .I make myself an excuse why it isn't a good time to bother the friend. Even though I know the friend does care and would make time available for me even though it wasn't a really good time.



• I've got work I'd like to do on my boat. If I did it I'd be happy with the accomplishment and doing the work. But I don't do it either. I've put in a couple hours of work in the last four days, I think.



• I could do things to clean up the boat, take care of myself, making my home feel good and happier. I don't take the time to cook myself good food.



• I've been delaying sharpening my kitchen knives for a couple months (and counting), even though I enjoy the process and really like using good sharp knives.



• I'm staying up later than I like and sleeping later than I like... .and when I'm staying up, I'm not doing anything that seems important.



• I've let my daily meditation practice lapse in the last week or two.



• I want to exercise, and enjoy it; I've got a 1.5 mile loop I try to walk daily. I've skipped a lot of days there too.

I dunno. This sounds a lot like depression. And/or like I don't believe down at my core that I am worth it the effort.

[vortex of confusion]

 

I think I could have written parts of this, especially the parts about not treating yourself well.

I don't have any real advice or input but would like to see what others have to say. I think a lot of the negative actions towards myself are a form of self-talk. It is a form of self hatred. I don't feel like I am worth taking care of because others in my life don't value me. I am trying to move to a place where I value myself enough to act in ways to show myself that I am worthy of my own efforts. It is difficult to change that thinking because I have taken care of other people instead of taking care of myself.

Are you afraid that you will feel selfish if you take better care of yourself? That is a question that I am wrestling with at the moment.

[Grey Kitty]

VOC, calling myself selfish isn't a rabbit hole I dive into... .my answer may not benefit you much. (I've got plenty of other rabbit holes I get lost in!)

The best way I've seen to address that is in the first two of Rabbi Hillel’s famous three questions he asked his students:

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

But if I am only for myself, who am I?

If not now, when?

Q2 addresses being too selfish. That it comes after Q1 puts it in perspective. Personally, I'm stumbling on Q3!

I'm still looking for input on how to make my ACTIONS toward myself be kinder and more empowering and supportive, without getting into something enabling or pure escapism.

[Whatwasthat]

Hi Grey Kitty

I don't write much on the boards any more so forgive me for popping up out of nowhere!

I just wanted to say... .

I dunno. This sounds a lot like depression.

... .I think you're right. This does sound a lot like mild depression. Do you have techniques you've used if you've experienced depression before?

I can imagine that exercise might be a good place to start.

Wishing you well

WWT

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, calling myself selfish isn't a rabbit hole I dive into... .my answer may not benefit you much. (I've got plenty of other rabbit holes I get lost in!)

Q2 addresses being too selfish. That it comes after Q1 puts it in perspective. Personally, I'm stumbling on Q3!

I'm still looking for input on how to make my ACTIONS toward myself be kinder and more empowering and supportive, without getting into something enabling or pure escapism.

What do you consider enabling or pure escapism?

I had not heard of Hillel's three questions before so I went and did some digging to figure out what they mean. I definitely want to do more reading on the three questions.

All of the things that you listed seem to be solitary activities. Is there a way to find another person to do some of these things with? One of the things that stuck out to me when I was reading about the three questions was how it encourages people to build relationships with each other.

Here is a passage from www.shma.com/2007/01/hillels-questions-a-call-for-leadership/

To find the strength to renew ourselves   — as individuals, congregations, or communities — where do we turn? Hillel guides us to the insight that the challenges of leadership, community, and work in the world — particularly the work of justice — do not each stand on their own, but are linked to each other. And our power to do the work of justice grows out of the relationships we build with one another. The motivation to build relationships with one another grows out of the recognition that we can only become complete selves by doing so. It is not complicated — just hard. We must commit our time, imagination, and hearts. We must engage with each other in newly challenging ways. And we must find the courage to risk creative action. The job of leadership is to make this happen; this craft — rooted in the work of Moses — is what organizing is all about.

Not sure if any of this is helpful to you. It was helpful to me as it reminded me that even though things aren't optimal with my spouse, I can still focus on building new relationships or cultivating old relationships. Are there any relationships in your life that you can cultivate further?

[Grey Kitty]

This does sound a lot like mild depression. Do you have techniques you've used if you've experienced depression before?

Yep. I usually become aware as I'm getting out of it. I am lucky to have a positive outlook on life... .my normal pattern is to hit this kind of mild depression for around a week, then be finished with it until next time. I do have some tools that help. Fortunately the same things that are good for me when I'm depressed are good for me when I'm not.

All of the things that you listed seem to be solitary activities. Is there a way to find another person to do some of these things with? One of the things that stuck out to me when I was reading about the three questions was how it encourages people to build relationships with each other.

I'm in a geographic transition period--I don't have deep connections to the people where I am, and don't plan to stay or expect to develop many of them. My social connections are long distance these days, and I didn't mention them in this topic.

I do intend to move myself to a place where I fit in better, already have friends, and build/strengthen relationships with people.

[jhkbuzz]

I've long said that I believe how people treat me more than I believe what they say about how they feel about me. ESPECIALLY when there is an apparent conflict.

The last couple days I've been pretty depressed. [With good reason] This is how I act when I'm depressed--Not tearful-sad--at least much., not incapable of doing things... .just for some reason I don't choose to do things that look very different than sitting in front of my computer. I'm not choosing to do things.

I was thinking about the whole concept of self-worth / self-loathing etc. I've known a lot of people who have very negative self-talk in their heads. I don't. I'm a bit discouraged at how little I'm accomplishing and how this has been a long pattern in my life; I beat myself up a little over it... .but that is the exception, not the rule. I don't say unkind things about myself in my head.

Negative self-talk really doesn't seem like a fruitful area for me to dig into--there just isn't a lot there.

However when I look at my ACTIONS, I'm not treating myself like I'm worthwhile or valuable. Here are examples... .

• I'm feeling lonely, depressed and isolated... .do I call up a friend? No... .I make myself an excuse why it isn't a good time to bother the friend. Even though I know the friend does care and would make time available for me even though it wasn't a really good time.



• I've got work I'd like to do on my boat. If I did it I'd be happy with the accomplishment and doing the work. But I don't do it either. I've put in a couple hours of work in the last four days, I think.



• I could do things to clean up the boat, take care of myself, making my home feel good and happier. I don't take the time to cook myself good food.



• I've been delaying sharpening my kitchen knives for a couple months (and counting), even though I enjoy the process and really like using good sharp knives.



• I'm staying up later than I like and sleeping later than I like... .and when I'm staying up, I'm not doing anything that seems important.



• I've let my daily meditation practice lapse in the last week or two.



• I want to exercise, and enjoy it; I've got a 1.5 mile loop I try to walk daily. I've skipped a lot of days there too.

I dunno. This sounds a lot like depression. And/or like I don't believe down at my core that I am worth it the effort.

Hi Grey Kitty,

Don't know that this will be helpful, but for what it's worth:

I think there's a lot in our lives that encourage us to always be happy happy happy! Lift that chin up!  Put a smile on that face!  Post something on FB that will show everyone how great your doing! And on and on it goes... .without any acknowledgement of the fact that, sometimes, life is hard.  Sometimes it sucks.  Sometimes it's sad. And sometimes it takes a little time for things to get better.

You said something at the beginning of your post: The last couple days I've been pretty depressed. [With good reason].  Sometimes I think that's the key:  if there's a reasonable reason to go ahead and be sad, then go ahead and be sad! Give yourself permission to grieve, to cry, to rail against how unfair and sad and cruel life can be sometimes. Indulge yourself a bit - eat some chocolate, watch a movie, be a couch potato.

I, too, have had those "I should call a friend" moments - and then I don't.  And I decide that's okay because I am grieving and I need to grieve and that's okay.  It definitely lifts and then I re-enter the world and friendships and projects and keep moving.

Now, if you think it's not lifting, then here's another thought:

Most people think that feelings influence actions - and they obviously can. ("I don't feel like calling the friend, so I won't call the friend.  I don't feel like working on the boat, so I won't work on the boat."

But - it can also work in reverse (although it takes some self-discipline): the actions you take can influence your feelings.

You take an action, even when you don't feel like it, and surprisingly, your feelings start to line up with the action you've taken. You don't feel like working on the boat, but using self discipline you go ahead and work on the boat anyway - and you start to feel better.  You call the friend - even when you don't feel like calling the friend - and suddenly you discover that you're having a good time.

Surprisingly, researchers have discovered that people are often happy in arranged (not forced, but arranged) marriages.  How can that be, especially to our westernized way of thinking?  How can marrying a complete stranger ever turn out well? It's because, over time, feelings will start to line up with the actions you take.

Here's another secret - nothing will snap you out of sadness more quickly than genuinely being of service to someone else.  Not only does it boost your self esteem, but it helps take the focus off yourself - and in my own life, excessive self-focus that goes on too long ALWAYS makes me feel like crap.

One of my favorite quotes:  Do something today that your future self will thank you for.

[Copperfox]

I like to think we all need periods of life where we do a lot of introspection.  Maybe we don't accomplish everything we'd like, but we spend a lot of time thinking about things, thinking about life.  Figuring ourselves out.  I still think that counts as doing something.

There have been times in my life where I've gotten very introspective.  Where it didn't seem like I was accomplishing that many "tangible" things.  But in hindsight, those times were always the prelude to very productive times.  Perhaps I was subconsciously readying myself or something, like a leopard waiting to pounce, I don't know.

I try not to be too hard on myself in those times.  Be patient. Your mind and body are the product of millions of years of evolution, a finely honed machine.  If you feel a certain way, maybe that's how you need to feel at that moment.  When you're ready, just make it count.

[Grey Kitty]

I've done lots of introspection. This time 'round, just FEELING is what helps me most. I've thunk too much already. I like doing that, and I'm good at it... .and I'm not going to think my ay through this. My days have been a mix of being mildly depressed/numb and then feeling. Music is my friend here--lots of it brings up feelings for me.

Honestly if this is just depression, it will pass, relatively quickly if my history is any indication.

Meanwhile... .if anybody has ideas on how to treat myself as if I value myself... .besides choosing to act differently  ... .or waiting for the depression to pass... .I'm all ears.

[Copperfox]

I think valuing yourself is a mindset. What exactly do you mean by "treat myself as if I value myself"?  What do you mean by "treat"?

[Perfidy]

Gery kitty, I hope that what I'm about to write will help you. The human self has a definite foundation enveloped in obscurity. At our core is perfection. If you feel imperfect, you haven't contacted your core yet. Encompassing each human being is the stuff that being human is built around. Human nature can be deceiving, a paradox. The mind. Thought rises from nothing. Thought doesn't rise out our the mind. The mind only perceives thought. Thought happens and our minds perceive it. If you don't believe this, try to stop your thoughts. You can't. Just observe them. Let them happen. Thought comes and goes. Let it.

[jhkbuzz]

I've done lots of introspection. This time 'round, just FEELING is what helps me most. I've thunk too much already. I like doing that, and I'm good at it... .and I'm not going to think my ay through this. My days have been a mix of being mildly depressed/numb and then feeling. Music is my friend here--lots of it brings up feelings for me.

Honestly if this is just depression, it will pass, relatively quickly if my history is any indication.

Meanwhile... .if anybody has ideas on how to treat myself as if I value myself... .besides choosing to act differently  ... .or waiting for the depression to pass... .I'm all ears.

I'm sorry, Grey Kitty - I was only trying to help... .

[Pingo]

I think there's a lot in our lives that encourage us to always be happy happy happy! Lift that chin up!  Put a smile on that face!  Post something on FB that will show everyone how great your doing! And on and on it goes... .without any acknowledgement of the fact that, sometimes, life is hard.  Sometimes it sucks.  Sometimes it's sad. And sometimes it takes a little time for things to get better.

This is true, we get pressured to tell ourselves affirmations (which can have a place) and sometimes we feel bad that we can't snap out of our bad moods or feelings. I think it's important to allow ourselves our feelings and process them without dismissing them.  This is something I never did before this last year and it has been really self-validating to allow myself the whole spectrum of feelings... .and learn that I'm not 'less than' because I have these so-called bad feelings... .and the more I allow the sadness, the richer the joys seem to be!

[You take an action, even when you don't feel like it, and surprisingly, your feelings start to line up with the action you've taken. You don't feel like working on the boat, but using self discipline you go ahead and work on the boat anyway - and you start to feel better.  You call the friend - even when you don't feel like calling the friend - and suddenly you discover that you're having a good time.

This is basically what my T told me too. I was waiting for some magical feeling to come over me before I started to do things that are good for me such as getting back into a yoga practise or hiking or meditating. I felt zero motivation. She suggested I start with baby steps. Do 5 minutes of yoga. Go for a short walk. Do 2 minutes of meditation... .These baby steps did work as it builds momentum and in the process your feelings change, you start to enjoy the process.  It's helping me get back to the land of the living!

[jhkbuzz]

[You take an action, even when you don't feel like it, and surprisingly, your feelings start to line up with the action you've taken. You don't feel like working on the boat, but using self discipline you go ahead and work on the boat anyway - and you start to feel better.  You call the friend - even when you don't feel like calling the friend - and suddenly you discover that you're having a good time.

This is basically what my T told me too. I was waiting for some magical feeling to come over me before I started to do things that are good for me such as getting back into a yoga practise or hiking or meditating. I felt zero motivation. She suggested I start with baby steps. Do 5 minutes of yoga. Go for a short walk. Do 2 minutes of meditation... .These baby steps did work as it builds momentum and in the process your feelings change, you start to enjoy the process.  It's helping me get back to the land of the living!

Yup... .and that's why so many people get stuck - because they don't realize that the action CAN come first.

[Grey Kitty]

This is basically what my T told me too. I was waiting for some magical feeling to come over me before I started to do things that are good for me such as getting back into a yoga practise or hiking or meditating. I felt zero motivation. She suggested I start with baby steps. Do 5 minutes of yoga. Go for a short walk. Do 2 minutes of meditation... .These baby steps did work as it builds momentum and in the process your feelings change, you start to enjoy the process.  It's helping me get back to the land of the living!

Yup... .and that's why so many people get stuck - because they don't realize that the action CAN come first.

I've known that for quite a while. Remember many times when my wife was depressed and I kinda pushed her to go out for a walk, even though she didn't feel like it, for that exact reason.

It goes both ways--you do actions because of how you feel... .and you feel things because of your actions.

I once read a really interesting book on depression and natural cures to it. I wasn't impressed with the natural cures part of it, but it had this wonderful analogy about how your mind/body works and the wisdom of paying attention to what it asks for.

When you have some kind of a cold, infection, or flu, you feel crappy. Low energy. Low motivation. You don't want to eat much. Sitting on the couch staring at the TV or staying in bed feels natural to you. You could power through it and go to work and do all your normal activities, pushing through the exhaustion. And your body is giving you a not-to-subtle hint that your immune system is busy and needs all the resources it can get. Digesting food takes energy. Moving around doing physical stuff takes energy. So does thinking and interacting with people. If you let your immune system take all the energy it wants, it will be better able to deal with the infection. So lie in bed for a day or two, let it do its job. Your body knows what it needs. If you push yourself to act 'normal' you might be fighting this thing for a couple weeks because your immune system doesn't have all the energy it needs.

The analogy is that depression is a mental/spiritual/emotional thing you go through... .and it is a natural thing, even a healthy one. It also slows you down, if you let it. Trust that it is happening because your mind/body/spirit system knows that something needs to be done even though you may not realize it. When you are depressed, you do a lot of re-evaluation of where your life has been, and is going, and what you want out of it.

This depression comes up in a couple natural ways... .the one I'm getting right now is that I'm grieving the end of my marriage. I can feel that or stuff it. Depression encourages me to slow down and feel it, which is what I need to do to get on to a more healthy life. If I stuff it, I'm 100% sure it will bite me in the ass later!

The other one is more what my wife has got--When you are living a life that doesn't match your values and dreams, eventually it just feels WRONG in some way. You probably go along on autopilot not realizing it... .and the depression is your mind/body/spirit telling you to STOP for a bit and think about it, giving you a natural opportunity to re-direct your life.

Both of these are natural processes and healthy... .like your immune system. And like your immune system, they can get messed up and turn against you. Depression that doesn't go away is like that... .sortof like a spiritual auto-immune disorder   

For me, there is a fine line between forcing myself to feel happy happy happy, and stuffing the difficult things I need to address... .and getting lost in moping around, accomplishing nothing. I'll probably be on both wrong sides of that line much of the time, but as long as I keep heading back toward the center I'll get through this and learn what I need to learn.