The tough, non-sugarcoated realities of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) ~

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

What do you think are the tough, non-sugarcoated realities of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)?  In concise form, I will start with some of my perceived realities about BPD on the top of my head, in question-and-answer form.  I know that some people will disagree with some of my thoughts below, but I'm just shooting from my hip, un-edited, calling it as I see it.

1. Did my pwBPD love me?  Who knows.  These folks are mentally ill.  Whatever "love" there was for you was not a normal type of love as we know it.  It was a manifestation of his/her illness.

2. Will my pwBPD get better with therapy?  For those stressful or intimate moments when it really counts, no, I'm sorry, therapy won't help, BPD is too strong of a force.  (Also, there is no drug for this.)

3. Will the BPD fade away with age?  Nope, sorry.  BPD is ingrained in the brain, it won't just fade away.

4. Is it genetic?  Yes, sorry to break it to you.  (I'm aware that a specific gene has not yet been identified, but again, I am just shooting from the hip with this thread, and I do firmly believe it's genetic.)

5.  Did my pwBPD lie to me about X, Y, and Z?  Yes.

6.  Is there something I can do to help my pwBPD?  No, other than keeping your distance to avoid triggering her, no.

7.  I've heard that a pwBPD can be dangerous but mine doesn't seem dangerous, is she dangerous?  Should I be worried that she might turn on me out of the blue and try to destroy me?  Yes and yes.

8.  My pwBPD wants some money or doesn't want to pay me back, what's up with this?  The pwBPD will try to fleece you just for sport, don't allow it, provide no money no matter how compelling the latest story is.  :)o not share bank accounts or anything like that.

9.  Were the last X months/years of my life with this person just a complete waste?  Yes; but No in the sense that you now have much greater knowledge, and knowledge is good.

10.  Will my pwBPD ever "see the light" and come back knocking with a sincere apology?  No.

[Tim300]

What do you think are the tough, non-sugarcoated realities of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)?  In concise form, I will start with some of my perceived realities about BPD on the top of my head, in question-and-answer form.  I know that some people will disagree with some of my thoughts below, but I'm just shooting from my hip, un-edited, calling it as I see it.

1. Did my pwBPD love me?  Who knows.  These folks are mentally ill.  Whatever "love" there was for you was not a normal type of love as we know it.  It was a manifestation of his/her illness.

2. Will my pwBPD get better with therapy?  For those stressful or intimate moments when it really counts, no, I'm sorry, therapy won't help, BPD is too strong of a force.  (Also, there is no drug for this.)

3. Will the BPD fade away with age?  Nope, sorry.  BPD is ingrained in the brain, it won't just fade away.

4. Is it genetic?  Yes, sorry to break it to you.  (I'm aware that a specific gene has not yet been identified, but again, I am just shooting from the hip with this thread, and I do firmly believe it's genetic.)

5.  Did my pwBPD lie to me about X, Y, and Z?  Yes.

6.  Is there something I can do to help my pwBPD?  No, other than keeping your distance to avoid triggering her, no.

7.  I've heard that a pwBPD can be dangerous but mine doesn't seem dangerous, is she dangerous?  Should I be worried that she might turn on me out of the blue and try to destroy me?  Yes and yes.

8.  My pwBPD wants some money or doesn't want to pay me back, what's up with this?  The pwBPD will try to fleece you just for sport, don't allow it, provide no money no matter how compelling the latest story is.  :)o not share bank accounts or anything like that.

9.  Were the last X months/years of my life with this person just a complete waste?  Yes; but No in the sense that you now have much greater knowledge, and knowledge is good.

10.  Will my pwBPD ever "see the light" and come back knocking with a sincere apology?  No.

[Suzn]

We can't argue facts. It's where the boards got their name... bpdfamily.com

1. Did my pwBPD love me?   Who knows.  These folks are mentally ill.  Whatever "love" there was for you was not a normal type of love as we know it.  It was a manifestation of his/her illness.

Idolization and mirroring.

Workshop - BPD BEHAVIORS: Mirroring

2. Will my pwBPD get better with therapy?   For those stressful or intimate moments when it really counts, no, I'm sorry, therapy won't help, BPD is too strong of a force.  (Also, there is no drug for this.)

Article 7: Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder

3. Will the BPD fade away with age?  Nope, sorry.  BPD is ingrained in the brain, it won't just fade away.

Many licensed therapists would agree that BPD traits can lessen with age however they would probably agree that it doesn't simply "fade away."

4. Is it genetic?  Yes, sorry to break it to you.  (I'm aware that a specific gene has not yet been identified, but again, I am just shooting from the hip with this thread, and I do firmly believe it's genetic.)

Bpd is a mix of nature vs nuture. A pwBPD is born with a "predisposition" and symptoms can worsen in an invalidating environment.

6.  Is there something I can do to help my pwBPD?  No, other than keeping your distance to avoid triggering her, no.

Lessons for members who are staying in their relationships

9.  Were the last X months/years of my life with this person just a complete waste?  Yes; but No in the sense that you now have much greater knowledge, and knowledge is good.

Article 1: How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves

[AwakenedOne]

What do you think are the tough, non-sugarcoated realities of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)?

1. Did my pwBPD love me?  I wouldn't call it love at all. You start out as the knight in shining armor up until when she sees your armor not glistening in the sun one day. That's when you become the village idiot in her eyes never again to regain your position as the knight. These terms they call us like the knight in shining armor and soul mate etc... .etc... .are weird. What normal person throws those terms around like that. Unless somebody has dated you at least many months or more soul mate and knight shouldn't come out of their mouth or they are announcing to you "I am disordered".

5.  Did my pwBPD lie to me about X, Y, and Z?  Mine lied about A-Z. I would imagine some things were not a lie. Who knows though. No way to prove it. I find that it's just best to throw those past words away into the trash.

7.  I've heard that a pwBPD can be dangerous but mine doesn't seem dangerous, is she dangerous?  Should I be worried that she might turn on me out of the blue and try to destroy me?  I was married to a very dangerous one. The no remorse aspect of this disorder is the most disturbing.

9.  Were the last X months/years of my life with this person just a complete waste?  Yes; but No in the sense that you now have much greater knowledge, and knowledge is good. I would agree with this, although I would gladly take back the years and not have this extra knowledge.

[cosmonaut]

I can only go by my experience, but a great deal of what my ex told me was actually the truth.  She may be an unusual pwBPD in that regard, but I believe the vast majority of what she told me was true.  Her story on several things that sounded totally fantastical turned out to be true.  She's just had an unusually crazy life.  Now the things she did lie about were her addiction problems (hiding and using alcohol and pills - which was a problem long before our relationship and all through it) and her eating disorder.  That's par for the course for those, though, and while I don't at all excuse it, I don't know what's BPD there and what's not.  I even found out that she told me the truth about things when she broke up with me.  I have that from a very reliable source.  So, don't think that everything that a pwBPD says is a lie.  At least for some pwBPD, they are quite capable of telling the truth.

[Vatz]

This brings up a memory where she said something and... .thinking about it now I'm positive she was lying.

[raisins3142]

Whilst my ex is posting memes about how cruelty is never acceptable (I was mean at our break up), she even lied about very important things to a relationship.  She doesn't realize lying to someone constantly is being cruel to them!  Her is an example of what our relationship was filled with.

Her: Do you want kids?

Me: Possibly, if I find the right person and they want kids.  What about you?

Her: Yes, that is something I've always wanted for myself.

Few months later... .after I saw her ignore and scowl at all kids, including my niece and nephew... .

Her: I have no maternal instinct, don't want kids, and would likely not be a good mother.

[billypilgrim]

Whilst my ex is posting memes about how cruelty is never acceptable (I was mean at our break up), she even lied about very important things to a relationship.  She doesn't realize lying to someone constantly is being cruel to them!  Her is an example of what our relationship was filled with.

Her: Do you want kids?

Me: Possibly, if I find the right person and they want kids.  What about you?

Her: Yes, that is something I've always wanted for myself.

Few months later... .after I saw her ignore and scowl at all kids, including my niece and nephew... .

Her: I have no maternal instinct, don't want kids, and would likely not be a good mother.

I had the same conversation with my ex.  We actually got into a fight about me not being ready for kids and she was ready.  It was our first wedding anniversary, can't we enjoy married life for a bit?  Then when I caved and decided sure, if it'll make you happy (I know now you never settle for something as large as kids, though I'd like to think my hesitancy in having kids with her in the first place was my way of looking out for myself).  A few months later, she's playing the IDK, I'd probably be a terrible mother game.  Tell me I won't be a terrible mother. 

Looking back, she would absolutely be a terrible mother.  And I'd be a single father. 

Great thread by the way.  Sometimes I feel as things can get a little too apologetic.  Sure it's a disorder and they didn't sign up for it, but it ends up hurting us nons just as much as it hurts them sometimes.  And to me, that's what this board is about.

[Tim300]

Whilst my ex is posting memes about how cruelty is never acceptable (I was mean at our break up), she even lied about very important things to a relationship.  She doesn't realize lying to someone constantly is being cruel to them!  Her is an example of what our relationship was filled with.

Her: Do you want kids?

Me: Possibly, if I find the right person and they want kids.  What about you?

Her: Yes, that is something I've always wanted for myself.

Few months later... .after I saw her ignore and scowl at all kids, including my niece and nephew... .

Her: I have no maternal instinct, don't want kids, and would likely not be a good mother.

I had the same conversation with my ex.  We actually got into a fight about me not being ready for kids and she was ready.  It was our first wedding anniversary, can't we enjoy married life for a bit?  Then when I caved and decided sure, if it'll make you happy (I know now you never settle for something as large as kids, though I'd like to think my hesitancy in having kids with her in the first place was my way of looking out for myself).  A few months later, she's playing the IDK, I'd probably be a terrible mother game.  Tell me I won't be a terrible mother.  

Looking back, she would absolutely be a terrible mother.  And I'd be a single father.  

Great thread by the way.  Sometimes I feel as things can get a little too apologetic.  Sure it's a disorder and they didn't sign up for it, but it ends up hurting us nons just as much as it hurts them sometimes.  And to me, that's what this board is about.

Make that a third person (me) who went through this with the pwBPD flip-flopping on having kids.  To boot, mine conveniently kept hidden from me a medical condition that would make it physically challenging for her to have kids, even though throughout the courtship I consistently made clear my dream to start a family.  (I found out about this medical condition after we were engaged, and I found this out from her mother.)

And yup, she would have been a terrible mother and I would have been a single father (with a potentially mentally ill child) -- so I can be grateful that things didn't progress.

Glad you appreciate the thread.  I have great sympathy for those with BPD -- I just don't think that it generally benefits anyone to not be 100% honest (including 100% honest with yourself) about key aspects of this grave disorder.

[Skip]

Does the quote below sound like a studied person or an emotional one?

I will start with some of my perceived realities about BPD on the top of my head, in question-and-answer form.  I know that some people will disagree with some of my thoughts below, but I'm just shooting from my hip, un-edited, calling it as I see it.

Anger is a way we shield ourselves from looking at inward. Generalizing the anger creates an even bigger shield.

You saw this with your partner.  You linked it to her need to be in denial.

It is the same when we do it.

Right?

[Tim300]

Does the quote below sound like a studied person or an emotional one?

I will start with some of my perceived realities about BPD on the top of my head, in question-and-answer form.  I know that some people will disagree with some of my thoughts below, but I'm just shooting from my hip, un-edited, calling it as I see it.

Anger is a way we shield ourselves from looking at inward. Generalizing the anger creates an even bigger shield.

You saw this with your partner.  You linked it to her need to be in denial.

It is the same when we do it.

Right?

This is the OP here.  I can say that I wrote this entry with very little emotion.  I am now more than 6 months out of my broken engagement, in a budding, happy relationship with a non, and largely detached from the turmoil I encountered with my pwBPD.  To to the extent I wrote this with emotion, my emotion was certainly not anger.  :)espite some of the horrible things that happened to me at the hands of my pwBPD, I have very little to be angry about with regards to my life as a whole, and I am certainly not angry at my pwBPD.  I am certain there is no one on this planet who wishes more deeply that my pwBPD didn't have BPD than her herself.  I love her without measure (albeit from a distance of NC).  I have studied BPD at extraordinary length for the last 7 months and these are the conclusions I have reached.  BPD remains a relatively new area of study in general, and there is still much to be learned and confirmed.  We can all benefit from thinking critically about surmised theories regarding this disorder.  

I do believe there are some overly optimistic ideas out there, and I also believe that perpetuating these ideas is a great disservice to the public (for both nons and for people with BPD).  I will add that I think these sugarcoated ideas are mostly perpetuated either by (1) people who intend well but don't know much about BPD, (2) people who have BPD and don't want to accept the truth about BPD, (3) people who have BPD running through their family lineage and don't want to accept the truth about BPD, or (4) people who have procreated with a pwBPD and wish to deny the reality of what they've done (I am not judging anyone here, it's only by luck that this wasn't my fate).

As a side note, I did see anger in my pwBPD, but I generally wouldn't link it to her being in denial about something (as you suggested above).  She herself did not understand what caused her anger and she was in therapy trying to get help for it, but that therapy could not help her when she needed it most.  Perhaps her brain is naturally predisposed to anger (for example, because of low serotonin levels); she did try taking the drug bupropion to try to improve her disposition.  I am not discouraging anyone from seeking help for BPD, my ex did seem to get some marginal benefit out of the therapy (although in states of dysregulation the therapy unfortunately had no impact).      

[Skip]

Well, OK, I'm not going to tell you how you feel.  How about questions?

I'm not sure I follow the "science according to Tim300" approach where you are recasting the conclusions of experts and characterizing anyone who doesn't share the monolithic view you've painted of BPD as having an agenda.    I don't follow it because evaluating the scientific community and helper organizations is not why we are here. What is the goal here?

We're a community of individuals recovering from very difficult relationships.  And emotionally wounded people are generally not the ones with the greatest perspective and knowledge on these complex psychological matters (this is why we work on a mentoring basis here - the more established members helping the newer members through the process).  :)o you feel you are in a place to be more objective, more practical than the experts in the field (psychology, neurobiology, support organizations)? Do you believe the medical community is overly optimistic?

Why so much focus on setting the record straight - promoting your views and trying to convince others?  Even if true, why isn't the focus more about you and your relationship?

As I said earlier, we're a community of individuals recovering from very difficult relationships. We were a part of that relationship and the only part that matters going forward as the other person is out of the picture, now.

Now is a time we can look back at the transactional problems of our specific relationship.  However broken our ex was, you saw it, interacted with it daily, escalated to a marriage proposal, road the high and lows and breakups, and stayed in until she her pushing you away.

No judgment here, tim, this is a common story for many of us.

Do you think some or all or scientific views are supporting of a narrative that she was hard wired (unchangable - 100% genetic as you say, the relationship was 100% nonrecoverable) and the problems of  this relationship were all on her - you had no role in the relationship failure?

Skip

[Haye]

1. I think a part of my ex did love me, briefly. He has also dissociative indentinty disorder (PTSD with BPD, DID, OCD & anorexia) and in my experience it is extremely difficult to distinguish between a change in the mood (BPD style) or a change in alter (DID) IF the alters are rather similar.  I feel there was an alter/part of him who was able to love and did love me, and that I was allowed to meet and live with that alter three times, the last one ending Dec 2014. Whether this alter exists anymore or ever comes back, nobody knows.

I've talked with him a lot of this him and we both agree he can mirror love, but cannot hold up that for more than a few days if he spends 24/7 with that person. It's too difficult and demanding mentally, he starts to go into a very sour and mean person (one of his alters?). On a long distance relationship he can do the lovemirroring long, for as long as he likes I guess. When in a new relationship it is impossible fro him to tell the difference between feeling for someone truly or just mirroring their feelings and wishes, or if it is BPD rollercoaster idealization going on.

2. It is a very long journey. My ex is quite young, in his twenties still and I think it might help. I've understood that brains and neurons have more change of learning new stuff and getting better as the wrong patterns aren't as deep. He is working very hard on getting better, never misses any appointments and does what ever is needed. In my opinion he is a bit too hard on himself, and fustrated for the slowness of getting better; how ever he seems to accept the fact that anxiety, obsessive thinking and compulsory movements started are going to be part of his life forever as they started when he was still a tiny boy (around six or seven).

3. Not really, perhaps a little. I suspect my father was a mix of BPD and DPD (demanding personality) and i'd say he got a bit softer by the age. More understanding.

4. He's family has a history of alcoholism and some schizophrenia, but we both think his condition is a mix of genetics (tendency to psychosis & being born as highly sensitive personality) AND having a very rough background, starting from the early childhood attchment not happening due mother's severe deppression, topped with being verbally and physically abused and as a young guy finding his way into a very shady lifestyle & getting more traumas from those times. I doubt his genes only would have caused this, knowing all the ___e he's been through i'm pretty content anyone, regardless of the genes, would be mentally ill one way or the other.

5. I (half)agree with Cosmonaut here. My ex had, just like cosmonaut's ex, had an extraordinarily crazy life. At the beginning of getting to know he talked only a little of some of his wildest times. Those stories I mistook then as mere fabrication and someone trying to make a dull life sound more colorful. During the three years I spend with him I slowly learnt that not only were his stories true they were just the tip of the iceberg. He was at the same time trying to tell me truth (which i've insisted on) while protecting me (and himself?) of all the horrors he's been through. I've heard that some BPD's fabricate stories of abuse, rape etc to gain someone's pity. I can honestly say that at the beginning my pwBPD tried to hide part of what happenend to him, some of the things he had done to himself or to others, or invited to happen by being young, reckless and not caring for himself at all. PwBPD can be so different from each other, that it's not easy to say who lies all the time and who is trying to tell you the truth (but perhaps can't).

6. I've tried to be supportive while also maintain my boundaries, and as hard as it was i think it has taught him a lot. With me he had the first time in his whole life to feel safe and loved as he is, with his nasty sides and horrifying experiences (this i've hard partially from him and partially from other people, one of ex for example). I have understood that being with me has changed a lot in him, from realizing he is gravely ill to get help and start fixing what can be fixed. Too bad his mind was (and is) still unable to maintain longtime attachment.

7. He was dangerous mostly to himself. Very much so. To others not that badly but well, mentally yes. Being with him meant some really overwhelming times.

8. My ex was and still is very good at handling money and quite generous too. Of all the reckless stuff he has done in his life, for some reason wasting money, gambling or trying to get money from others was never his problem.

9. I don't think the time I spend with him was wasted. It was difficult at some points and truly wonderful at others. I have gained a lot of information and do not regret the times we shared. It was life-changing for him too.

However, i will run like h*ll if I ever meet or date another BPD (and he's actually asked me to never ever interfere with a pwBPD again).

10. I think he has seen the light. We have both agreed that the rollercoaster (of being loved and then rejected) is not good for me and we both try not to repeat it ever again. While still being friends, which does make it quite hard.

[tim_tom]

Well, OK, I'm not going to tell you how you feel.  Lets go with questions.

I'm not sure I follow the "science according to Tim300" approach where you are recasting the conclusions of experts and characterizing anyone who doesn't share the monolithic view you've painted of BPD as having an agenda.    I don't follow it because evaluating the scientific community and helper organizations is not why we are here. What is the goal here?

We're a community of individuals recovering from very difficult relationships.  And emotionally wounded people are generally not the ones with the greatest perspective and knowledge on these complex psychological matters (this is why we work on a mentoring basis here - the more established members helping the newer members through the process).  Do you feel you are in a place to be more objective, more practical than the experts in the field (psychology, neurobiology, support organizations)? Do you believe the medical community is overly optimistic?

Why so much focus on setting the record straight - promoting your views and trying to convince others?  Even if true, why isn't the focus more about you and your relationship?

As I said earlier, we're a community of individuals recovering from very difficult relationships. We were a part of that relationship and the only part that matters going forward as the other person is out of the picture, now.

Now is a time we can look back at the transactional problems of our specific relationship.  However broken our ex was, you saw it, interacted with it daily, escalated to a marriage proposal, road the high and lows and breakups, and stayed in until she her pushing you away.

No judgment here, tim, this is a common story for many of us.

Do you think some or all or scientific views are supporting of a narrative that she was hard wired (unchangable - 100% genetic as you say, the relationship was 100% nonrecoverable) and the problems of  this relationship were all on her - you had no role in the relationship failure?

Skip

while tim's views may be somewhat extreme and hard, they aren't mutually exclusive with what you've asserted. Clearly there is fault with both parties in these relationships, but I find, both in my own and in what i've read here and other places that the pwBPD is usually the impetus for the highs and lows, the driving force of the relationship, the non seems to end up in a reactionary role and when abandoned reacts accordingly as they digest what they've been through.

To put it more simply, do I think my exBPD at this point in her life is capable of a healthy relationship? Absolutely not. But I also understand that there was no reason I had to stay for 19 months, to let it destroy me, nor that I had to buy into the fiction of finding everlasting love at first site and move in with her in a few months. I wanted to believe and abandoned reason and life experience in doing so

[Skip]

... . while tim's views may be somewhat extreme and hard, they aren't mutually exclusive with what you've asserted.

When we describe a post with words like "non-sugarcoated realities", "people will disagree", "extreme and hard",  we are describing hyperbole.  Hyperbole, bias, prejudice, exaggeration, etc. are all terms that move us away from balance understanding, self-awareness, healing, growth.

Nobody is questioning the instable relationship patterns of people with BPD or or even people with BPD tendencies - that's a hallmark of the disorder. Nobody is questioning that pw codependent traits cope by blaming.  My question is not about this.

I'm asking a question about co-rumination and how we manage our healing process - it's a question aimed at our thread history (not a single post). Are we working on our issues or are we avoiding them. Are we co-ruminating?

Co-ruminating is comforting. It's also destructive if allowed to linger on too long.  It deepens the injury. It blinds the self-awareness.  It kick the can down the road.

If we are co-ruminating, its important to be self-aware and nudge ourselves forward and back onto a healing path.

[billypilgrim]

... . while tim's views may be somewhat extreme and hard, they aren't mutually exclusive with what you've asserted.

Co-ruminating is comforting. It's also destructive if allowed to linger on too long.  It deepens the injury. It blinds the self-awareness.  It kick the can down the road.

I see your point here Skip.  If I may paraphrase, please correct me if I'm interpreting your intent incorrectly, you seem to see this thread, or you are at least asking the question of this thread, as a poor coping mechanism.  By ruminating on the disorder, you become distracted from getting to your own core, personal issues.  And thus, kick the recovery can down the road by spinning your wheels while consumed with thoughts of BPD.

 

I see that point but I don't get the gist from Tim that he is coming from a vengeful or unresolved place, though I can't speak for him.  I feel as though this post is the product of a lot of introspection and research into BPD, with maybe a few tongue-in-cheek lines.  Tim has drawn his own conclusions, many of which I agree with, many of which seem to be inline with the sentiments of professionals.  I feel as though the tone of some of the lines is the major issue that gives you pause about this thread - correct me if I'm wrong here. 

Perhaps I feel this way because I see this as a function of both my personal experience and recovery coupled with having family members that currently deal with pwBPD in their lives on a daily basis.  I don't have any success stories to share.  Just heartache and heartbreak.  So to me, this post seemed a bit more in tune with the realities of BPD than some of the more apologetic, want-to-understand posts that I've seen on this site.   This post is more about us nons than about our exs with BPD.   I see it as the end product of a crash course in BPD and I see it as something that's closer on the side of acceptance than rumination.

But again, that's just from where I'm sitting.    

[tim_tom]

I'm asking a question about co-rumination and how we manage our healing process - it's a question aimed at our thread history (not a single post). Are we working on our issues or are we avoiding them. Are we co-ruminating?

Co-ruminating is comforting. It's also destructive if allowed to linger on too long.  It deepens the injury. It blinds the self-awareness.  It kick the can down the road.

If we are co-ruminating, its important to be self-aware and nudge ourselves forward and back onto a healing path.

The projection of guilt by the BPD to the NON makes co-ruminating healing imo. It's nice to understand that it wasn't all my fault, that other people have had similar experiences and reacted similarly, it in effect kicks off the healing process and allows you to forgive yourself. My first week or two was spent eviscerating myself due to my own failings in the relationship

I agree it can be destructive if this is all you are doing, but what I am suggesting is that it's possible to do both. It's possible to say, "hey I just got run through the ringer by an extremely difficult personality" while also asking yourself "why did I stay so long, why was I codependent, what in me felt the need to get so serious so quickly"

[Tim300]

Well, OK, I'm not going to tell you how you feel.  How about questions?

I'm not sure I follow the "science according to Tim300" approach where you are recasting the conclusions of experts and characterizing anyone who doesn't share the monolithic view you've painted of BPD as having an agenda.    I don't follow it because evaluating the scientific community and helper organizations is not why we are here. What is the goal here?

We're a community of individuals recovering from very difficult relationships.  And emotionally wounded people are generally not the ones with the greatest perspective and knowledge on these complex psychological matters (this is why we work on a mentoring basis here - the more established members helping the newer members through the process).  :)o you feel you are in a place to be more objective, more practical than the experts in the field (psychology, neurobiology, support organizations)? Do you believe the medical community is overly optimistic?

Why so much focus on setting the record straight - promoting your views and trying to convince others?  Even if true, why isn't the focus more about you and your relationship?

As I said earlier, we're a community of individuals recovering from very difficult relationships. We were a part of that relationship and the only part that matters going forward as the other person is out of the picture, now.

Now is a time we can look back at the transactional problems of our specific relationship.  However broken our ex was, you saw it, interacted with it daily, escalated to a marriage proposal, road the high and lows and breakups, and stayed in until she her pushing you away.

No judgment here, tim, this is a common story for many of us.

Do you think some or all or scientific views are supporting of a narrative that she was hard wired (unchangable - 100% genetic as you say, the relationship was 100% nonrecoverable) and the problems of  this relationship were all on her - you had no role in the relationship failure?

Skip

1.  I am not saying that I am disagreeing with any scientific consensus.  I have read the studies.  I'm aware of what the consensus is and what is known and what is not known -- much is not known.  The references to  "sugarcoated" language are predominantly to non-peer-reviewed, op-ed type postings about BPD.  If you believe that there is a scientific conclusion that I have gone against in my original post, please provide the sources, thanks.  I'm always eager to learn.

2.  I am not trying to promote my views and convince others.  I'm trying to share dialog about this disorder, to talk about it freely so that we can all learn, predominantly because I find it to be an interesting subject.  Also in part because I believe BPD is sometimes discussed in a way that is a bit too rosy and I believe that does a disservice to everyone (nons and pwBPD alike).  This is a public Internet forum about BPD, with seemingly unlimited space for people do discuss various topics.  People can discuss aspects of BPD that are not a direct focus on their specific relationships -- it happens here all the time.  Nobody is forcing you to engage in this thread.  

3.  I have biases, you have biases, we all do.  People who read about BPD should certainly think critically about the source of the information being provided, including if that information is coming from me.  

4.  Finally, of course over a 2.5 year relationship I made mistakes (and that's something I can learn from going forward).  However, thinking as objectively as I possibly can, I do believe that her relationship with me stood no chance because of her mental condition, just like with all of the other failed romantic, familial, and platonic relationships she's been through.  This is a problem that she herself has acknowledged.  It's a basic function of this disorder. Difficulty with interpersonal relationships is one of the 9 criterion.    

[Skip]

but what I am suggesting is that it's possible to do both.

In a healthy healing path you will do both. Co-rumination, however, has a dysfunctional side if you stay in that mode.  You say its comforting - it absolutely is.  It's also bonding - we bond with those we co-ruminate with.  There is acceptance and identity. 

These are all good things. Chicken soup!  Most of us are devalued and rejected and this feels good.  So it is good.  We want to use it to get our head above water.

The problem comes when we immerse ourselves in it.  A good thing goes bad. We don't start swimming when our head pops up abovet he water, but rather we indulge ourselves in validation.

Studies have shown that excessive co-rumination makes us feel more injured, more helpless, and distracts us from doing the work (I'll look for a link in a few minutes).

We can't judge if it is excessive by a single thread.  We have to look across our entire body of work here to see it. Our maybe have a more experienced member raise the concern.

Remember how helpful it was to learn the a failed BPD relationship goes through stages - seducer, clinger, hater.  We learned from that because we tended to think 1 dimensionally about the relationship.

This is the same type of thing. We don't want to think one dimensionally about our recovery.

If you're a couple of hundred posts and months in, and you are mostly co-ruminating here, and even elevating the hyperbole, its a bright  

Make sense?

[raisins3142]

I'm asking a question about co-rumination and how we manage our healing process - it's a question aimed at our thread history (not a single post). Are we working on our issues or are we avoiding them. Are we co-ruminating?

Co-ruminating is comforting. It's also destructive if allowed to linger on too long.  It deepens the injury. It blinds the self-awareness.  It kick the can down the road.

If we are co-ruminating, its important to be self-aware and nudge ourselves forward and back onto a healing path.

The projection of guilt by the BPD to the NON makes co-ruminating healing imo. It's nice to understand that it wasn't all my fault, that other people have had similar experiences and reacted similarly, it in effect kicks off the healing process and allows you to forgive yourself. My first week or two was spent eviscerating myself due to my own failings in the relationship

I agree it can be destructive if this is all you are doing, but what I am suggesting is that it's possible to do both. It's possible to say, "hey I just got run through the ringer by an extremely difficult personality" while also asking yourself "why did I stay so long, why was I codependent, what in me felt the need to get so serious so quickly"

I agree to a point.  I made a list at first of deal breakers in the relationship and things that just really bothered me.  I would reflect upon it whenever I questioned my decision to leave.  It also let me know that even if I had no issues that the ones she showed me that I had no part of would still be a deal breaker (if I could accurately visualize that state of affairs).

Sharing that list in part here and having others find commonality was helpful.

I no longer know where that list is, I probably have it memorized though.  And I no longer play out the narrative of the relationship in my head to relive the bad feelings that keep me away.

If I ever feel I need to be reminded, I'll make another list.

Also, posting some negative things here helps me a bit as well.  Although it can be a distraction for me if taken too far.

[Tim300]

 

... .

I don't get the gist from Tim that he is coming from a vengeful or unresolved place, though I can't speak for him.  

... .

I see it as the end product of a crash course in BPD and I see it as something that's closer on the side of acceptance than rumination.

   

That's correct.  Thanks billypilgrim.  I am happy to report that I am past the dreadful rumination period.  Hope you're having a nice spring (assuming you're in the Northern Hemisphere).

[Skip]

Tim300,

This is personal inventory so its fair to push a bit in the spirit of helping. I say all this to help you (and anyone reading).

Look at your last two posts:  

• One deflected/disputed all the self-awareness comments.

• The other pulled out and embraced - offered thanks -  for the validation.

Skip

[Tim300]

Tim300,

This is personal inventory so its fair to push a bit in the spirit of helping. I say all this to help you (and anyone reading).

Look at your last two posts:  

• One deflected/disputed all the self-awareness comments.

• The other pulled out and embraced - offered thanks -  for the validation.

Skip

Thanks Skip.  I suppose at this point it could be best to let the readers of this thread make their own judgments.  Have a great day.  That's all from me.

[tim_tom]

but what I am suggesting is that it's possible to do both.

In a healthy healing path you will do both. Co-rumination, however, has a dysfunctional side if you stay in that mode.  You say its comforting - it absolutely is.  It's also bonding - we bond with those we co-ruminate with.  There is acceptance and identity. 

These are all good things. Chicken soup!  Most of us are devalued and rejected and this feels good.  So it is good.  We want to use it to get our head above water.

The problem comes when we immerse ourselves in it.  A good thing goes bad. We don't start swimming when our head pops up abovet he water, but rather we indulge ourselves in validation.

Studies have shown that excessive co-rumination makes us feel more injured, more helpless, and distracts us from doing the work (I'll look for a link in a few minutes).

We can't judge if it is excessive by a single thread.  We have to look across our entire body of work here to see it. Our maybe have a more experienced member raise the concern.

Remember how helpful it was to learn the a failed BPD relationship goes through stages - seducer, clinger, hater.  We learned from that because we tended to think 1 dimensionally about the relationship.

This is the same type of thing. We don't want to think one dimensionally about our recovery.

If you're a couple of hundred posts and months in, and you are mostly co-ruminating here, and even elevating the hyperbole, its a bright  

Make sense?

Yes, looking at the entire body of ones posts makes sense, rather then a singular post or thread. I guess I'm saying the same thing, maybe in this thread, on this day, I'm participating in hyperbole but that doesn't mean that it's my 100% view of what transpired. I know both of us have issues, but my having them, and my issues contributing to the dysfunction does not mean that she did not have issues. She did, they were significant, and they've plagued every relationship she has or had and career endeavor she's ever taken on.

[going places]

1. Did my pwBPD love me?  No. He is 100% incapable of love for anyone but himself. Not even his own children... .

2. Will my pwBPD get better with therapy?  I don't know, I don't care; I will not be around if it does or does not, so it does not matter to me. What matters to me is that *I* understand and am able to see a PD early in any relationship I may have so that I do not waste any more of my life with someone who is incapeable of true, genuine, love.

3. Will the BPD fade away with age?  No, as a matter of fact the older my ex got the worse he got... .

4. Is it genetic?  I do not know if it's in the 'genes' but with my ex, everyone in his family was 'off'. Call it 'genes'; call it a generational curse. Call it what you like... .

5.  Did my pwBPD lie to me about X, Y, and Z?  Yes. My ex opened his mouth and it was lies. He is an awful person.

6.  Is there something I can do to help my pwBPD?  No. He loves himself more than anything in the world, he is never wrong, and he is far more intelligent than any other human being. Just ask him.

7.  I've heard that a pwBPD can be dangerous but mine doesn't seem dangerous, is she dangerous?  Should I be worried that she might turn on me out of the blue and try to destroy me?  Mine was dangerous in a sinister way... . all on the down low. Gas Lighting, manipulation, etc. Mental and emotional torture to the point it made ME want to eliminate ME. Pure, evil.

8.  My pwBPD wants some money or doesn't want to pay me back, what's up with this?  Never lend money you would not throw down the toilet. Never again will I ever share a bank account/ debit card / mortgage with anyone else... . Never.

9.  Were the last X months/years of my life with this person just a complete waste?  After 25 years of marriage, I walked with 3 amazing adult children. That is the ONLY good thing, to come out of 25 years of my life. I wasted 25 years of my life with a liar / monster.

10.  Will my pwBPD ever "see the light" and come back knocking with a sincere apology?  No and if they do, it's not genuine. Run. Just run... .

[Agent_of_Chaos]

Whilst my ex is posting memes about how cruelty is never acceptable (I was mean at our break up), she even lied about very important things to a relationship.  She doesn't realize lying to someone constantly is being cruel to them!  Her is an example of what our relationship was filled with.

Her: Do you want kids?

Me: Possibly, if I find the right person and they want kids.  What about you?

Her: Yes, that is something I've always wanted for myself.

Few months later... . after I saw her ignore and scowl at all kids, including my niece and nephew... .

Her: I have no maternal instinct, don't want kids, and would likely not be a good mother.

I had the same conversation with my ex.  We actually got into a fight about me not being ready for kids and she was ready.  It was our first wedding anniversary, can't we enjoy married life for a bit?  Then when I caved and decided sure, if it'll make you happy (I know now you never settle for something as large as kids, though I'd like to think my hesitancy in having kids with her in the first place was my way of looking out for myself).  A few months later, she's playing the IDK, I'd probably be a terrible mother game.  Tell me I won't be a terrible mother.  

Looking back, she would absolutely be a terrible mother.  And I'd be a single father.  

Great thread by the way.  Sometimes I feel as things can get a little too apologetic.  Sure it's a disorder and they didn't sign up for it, but it ends up hurting us nons just as much as it hurts them sometimes.  And to me, that's what this board is about.

Make that a third person (me) who went through this with the pwBPD flip-flopping on having kids.  To boot, mine conveniently kept hidden from me a medical condition that would make it physically challenging for her to have kids, even though throughout the courtship I consistently made clear my dream to start a family.  (I found out about this medical condition after we were engaged, and I found this out from her mother.)

And yup, she would have been a terrible mother and I would have been a single father (with a potentially mentally ill child) -- so I can be grateful that things didn't progress.

Glad you appreciate the thread.  I have great sympathy for those with BPD -- I just don't think that it generally benefits anyone to not be 100% honest (including 100% honest with yourself) about key aspects of this grave disorder.

4th. One minute she didn't want kids then after my sister had a baby she whistled a different tune.

One day I was singing some Christian music around the house and she told me to stop with the Jesus bs. One week later she wanted to study duff religions bc she found it interesting.

Her lack of identity makes me weep.

[Blimblam]

Tim

We attached to a pwBPD to externalize and resolve an internal struggle we already had going on within. Thats not to say people that don't get hurt by pwBPD but just use them as move on are healthy an we are unhealthy.  More that we on some level were trying to uncover a deeper truth about ourselves and it required the very idea of ourselves at our deepest foundations to self destruct in order to achieve such an end even if we fight kick and scream against that deeper terrifying reality the entire way.

The internal struggle is real and it's a part of everyone most of society is just a big circle jerk pretending it doesn't exist within themself.

[raisins3142]

Tim

We attached to a pwBPD to externalize and resolve an internal struggle we already had going on within. Thats not to say people that don't get hurt by pwBPD but just use them as move on are healthy an we are unhealthy.  More that we on some level were trying to uncover a deeper truth about ourselves and it required the very idea of ourselves at our deepest foundations to self destruct in order to achieve such an end even if we fight kick and scream against that deeper terrifying reality the entire way.

The internal struggle is real and it's a part of everyone most of society is just a big circle jerk pretending it doesn't exist within themself.

You actually believe this about all of us?

It just doesn't pass the sniff test and sounds an awful like trying to be profound and pretending to have "special knowledge".

How about use "we" a little less and "I" a bit more?

[Tim300]

Tim

We attached to a pwBPD to externalize and resolve an internal struggle we already had going on within. Thats not to say people that don't get hurt by pwBPD but just use them as move on are healthy an we are unhealthy.  More that we on some level were trying to uncover a deeper truth about ourselves and it required the very idea of ourselves at our deepest foundations to self destruct in order to achieve such an end even if we fight kick and scream against that deeper terrifying reality the entire way.

The internal struggle is real and it's a part of everyone most of society is just a big circle jerk pretending it doesn't exist within themself.

You actually believe this about all of us?

It just doesn't pass the sniff test and sounds an awful like trying to be profound and pretending to have "special knowledge".

How about use "we" a little less and "I" a bit more?

I would agree with the hesitation of Raisins3142 here.  I do think it's great to look in the mirror; however, by and large, I genuinely believe that for most of us here, that look in the mirror shouldn't drag on for too long.  That's to say, I don't believe that most nons here should blame themselves or try to dig deep into their childhood to stir up what might be wrong with them.  Rather, I think in most cases the non here was simply blindsided by the concept of BPD and wasn't exposed to the truly outrageous behavior of it until a major relationship commitment had already been made.  I can speak for myself and say that my attraction to my pwBPD was not related to the positive or negative BPD-related behavior I was exposed to (I was attracted to her primarily because we had a lot in common and she was pretty).  To the best of my knowledge, I believe that the vast majority of people in our society do not "have issues."  I believe that most of the nons here do not "have issues."  I am certain that there are people who aren't facing an "internal struggle" on a consistent basis.  

[Blimblam]

I think we spend more time looking into a projection of who we think we are and who we actually are but only on a superficial level.  That we have an inner construct that allows us to split the parts of us that we don't know how to deal with and project it into an "other." This very construct makes it difficult to really look in the mirror becuase it acts as a filter right before our very eyes. Also that while we stay in that state anyone who represents what behind that mirror is perceived as a threat. That the truth is that we would do almost anything to avoid trully looking at ourselves as long as we received validation enabling us not to.

[raisins3142]

Blim are you hesitant to simply analyze yourself and then own it without broadcasting so that perhaps you are not alone in a struggle you found in yourself?  I know very little about you and do not act otherwise.

[letmeout]

1. Did my pwBPD love me?  No. He is 100% incapable of love for anyone but himself. Not even his own children... .

2. Will my pwBPD get better with therapy?  I don't know, I don't care; I will not be around if it does or does not, so it does not matter to me. What matters to me is that *I* understand and am able to see a PD early in any relationship I may have so that I do not waste any more of my life with someone who is incapeable of true, genuine, love.

3. Will the BPD fade away with age?  No, as a matter of fact the older my ex got the worse he got... .

4. Is it genetic?  I do not know if it's in the 'genes' but with my ex, everyone in his family was 'off'. Call it 'genes'; call it a generational curse. Call it what you like... .

5.  Did my pwBPD lie to me about X, Y, and Z?  Yes. My ex opened his mouth and it was lies. He is an awful person.

6.  Is there something I can do to help my pwBPD?  No. He loves himself more than anything in the world, he is never wrong, and he is far more intelligent than any other human being. Just ask him.

7.  I've heard that a pwBPD can be dangerous but mine doesn't seem dangerous, is she dangerous?  Should I be worried that she might turn on me out of the blue and try to destroy me?  Mine was dangerous in a sinister way... . all on the down low. Gas Lighting, manipulation, etc. Mental and emotional torture to the point it made ME want to eliminate ME. Pure, evil.

8.  My pwBPD wants some money or doesn't want to pay me back, what's up with this?  Never lend money you would not throw down the toilet. Never again will I ever share a bank account/ debit card / mortgage with anyone else... . Never.

9.  Were the last X months/years of my life with this person just a complete waste?  After 25 years of marriage, I walked with 3 amazing adult children. That is the ONLY good thing, to come out of 25 years of my life. I wasted 25 years of my life with a liar / monster.

10.  Will my pwBPD ever "see the light" and come back knocking with a sincere apology?  No and if they do, it's not genuine. Run. Just run... .

I could have would have written that too

[Blimblam]

Blim are you hesitant to simply analyze yourself and then own it without broadcasting so that perhaps you are not alone in a struggle you found in yourself?  I know very little about you and do not act otherwise.

Look if people were not experiencing an internal struggle why the heck would they need a support forum?

But yeah I did discover an internal struggle within myself.  On leaving board everyone talking about what they are struggling with inside.  Format of us who pwBPD ex is gone and they are struggling that is an internalized struggle.  Was it just a response to the pwBPD no it wasn't my ex filled some kind of void in me.  With her I felt complete.  If I had felt complete without her I probably would have left as soon as I felt a shift towards devaluing in the relationship and when I brought it up she would dysregulate.  I probably would have been sad but that was a clear sign I was in denial of. 

The struggle is one of how we perceive ourself vs some idealized version of ourself that we are possibly working towards in the illusion of "progress." Lol its a joke really.  It's like we are comparing ourself to "cool." Except I stopped caring about "cool," years ago so now it's something else.  This inner critic.  Except now we would like to see ourselves as "happy or succesful." Etc.  But at some point somewhere in making that happen it's going to require somone somewhere else to suffer a great deal in order for me to achieve that "success," but as long as I can remain ignorant of that I can convince myselfje success is real.  The reality is that's all a thin vaneer.  Everything comes from somewhere and the cotton from my shirt was probably picked by a slave in some other country.  But they are so removed I can't feel their pain because it's out of mind.  So on a more local level the fear of my residence being broken into because their is poverty a few towns over.  Or the fear of if I dont conform to the ideals of society I will slip through the cracks.  Just that nurtures and fuels the inner critic. 

[raisins3142]

Blim are you hesitant to simply analyze yourself and then own it without broadcasting so that perhaps you are not alone in a struggle you found in yourself?  I know very little about you and do not act otherwise.

Look if people were not experiencing an internal struggle why the heck would they need a support forum?

But yeah I did discover an internal struggle within myself.  On leaving board everyone talking about what they are struggling with inside.  Format of us who pwBPD ex is gone and they are struggling that is an internalized struggle.  Was it just a response to the pwBPD no it wasn't my ex filled some kind of void in me.  With her I felt complete.  If I had felt complete without her I probably would have left as soon as I felt a shift towards devaluing in the relationship and when I brought it up she would dysregulate.  I probably would have been sad but that was a clear sign I was in denial of.  

The struggle is one of how we perceive ourself vs some idealized version of ourself that we are possibly working towards in the illusion of "progress." Lol its a joke really.  It's like we are comparing ourself to "cool." Except I stopped caring about "cool," years ago so now it's something else.  This inner critic.  Except now we would like to see ourselves as "happy or succesful." Etc.  But at some point somewhere in making that happen it's going to require somone somewhere else to suffer a great deal in order for me to achieve that "success," but as long as I can remain ignorant of that I can convince myselfje success is real.  The reality is that's all a thin vaneer.  Everything comes from somewhere and the cotton from my shirt was probably picked by a slave in some other country.  But they are so removed I can't feel their pain because it's out of mind.  So on a more local level the fear of my residence being broken into because their is poverty a few towns over.  Or the fear of if I dont conform to the ideals of society I will slip through the cracks.  Just that nurtures and fuels the inner critic.  

Sure, we are all feeling negative feelings.  I suppose that is an internal struggle of some sort.

But you are not writing in a clear manner that can actually be analyzed or be falsifiable in principle.

[Blimblam]

Blim are you hesitant to simply analyze yourself and then own it without broadcasting so that perhaps you are not alone in a struggle you found in yourself?  I know very little about you and do not act otherwise.

Look if people were not experiencing an internal struggle why the heck would they need a support forum?

But yeah I did discover an internal struggle within myself.  On leaving board everyone talking about what they are struggling with inside.  Format of us who pwBPD ex is gone and they are struggling that is an internalized struggle.  Was it just a response to the pwBPD no it wasn't my ex filled some kind of void in me.  With her I felt complete.  If I had felt complete without her I probably would have left as soon as I felt a shift towards devaluing in the relationship and when I brought it up she would dysregulate.  I probably would have been sad but that was a clear sign I was in denial of.  

The struggle is one of how we perceive ourself vs some idealized version of ourself that we are possibly working towards in the illusion of "progress." Lol its a joke really.  It's like we are comparing ourself to "cool." Except I stopped caring about "cool," years ago so now it's something else.  This inner critic.  Except now we would like to see ourselves as "happy or succesful." Etc.  But at some point somewhere in making that happen it's going to require somone somewhere else to suffer a great deal in order for me to achieve that "success," but as long as I can remain ignorant of that I can convince myselfje success is real.  The reality is that's all a thin vaneer.  Everything comes from somewhere and the cotton from my shirt was probably picked by a slave in some other country.  But they are so removed I can't feel their pain because it's out of mind.  So on a more local level the fear of my residence being broken into because their is poverty a few towns over.  Or the fear of if I dont conform to the ideals of society I will slip through the cracks.  Just that nurtures and fuels the inner critic.  

Sure, we are all feeling negative feelings.  I suppose that is an internal struggle of some sort.

But you are not writing in a clear manner that can actually be analyzed or be falsifiable in principle.

Yea you are right I'm rambling a bit.  But I think the idea of me may have become your shadowy "other."    . I'm honored.

[Blimblam]

But raisin I started to make we statements to avoid you statements especially when it came to something sensitive like pointing out someones narcissistic self image they are struggling with or hiding behind to avoid certain aspects of their self.  Lol it's a show of solidarity in that I and others here struggle with these roadblocks of making inroads into examining ourself.  The reason I sort of seek out those threads is I had split splitting .  So I have been leaning into the pain or confronting and integrating my own shadow.

[Suzn]

I don't believe that most nons here should blame themselves or try to dig deep into their childhood to stir up what might be wrong with them.

.

"The body's uncomfortable emotions happen only to remind you that there's a thought available for questioning."~ Byron Katie

I stayed in my r/s with my exBPDgf because I thought I could somehow change the outcome of the route the r/s was going when things started going haywire. My belief that I could actually DO this came from my experiences from childhood. It's not about finding out what's "wrong" with you. It's simply about finding our own behavior patterns and looking at what WE can change, or question, about ourselves so that in the future we can participate in healthier r/s.

I think in most cases the non here was simply blindsided by the concept of BPD and wasn't exposed to the truly outrageous behavior of it until a major relationship commitment had already been made.

This is when BPD behaviors really start to show. Once they feel they "have you" they start to fear they'll lose you, their fears of abandonment kick in. This is crux of BPD. I think you're right, we were blindsided. Why? There were likely flags well before the outrageous behaviors but we missed them. Why?

I will only speak for myself, I wasn't self aware nor was I emotionally mature enough to see the flags. Once I started looking inward I started seeing the flags in others. It's a side effect of self awareness. A welcome side effect.

I can speak for myself and say that my attraction to my pwBPD was not related to the positive or negative BPD-related behavior I was exposed to (I was attracted to her primarily because we had a lot in common and she was pretty).

If she was BPD then she was a pro at mirroring your likes and dislikes. We all do this to a certain degree. However, let's look a little deeper... . if we are deeply attracted to someone because they like what we like isn't that us liking/loving ourselves? A mirror image of our self? It's a fact that we are attracted to a person with our emotional maturity equivalent. We were no better equipped or qualified to handle the outrageous behaviors than they were. Frustrating, to say the least, whilst "in it."

I believe that most of the nons here do not "have issues."  

Quoting my T, "every human is broken to some degree." I don't see looking at my own "issues" as blaming myself, I'm human. I see it rather as a way to know myself because when I do it's easier, not a perfect science, but easier, to see when I'm stepping into unhealthy territory in a r/s with someone else... . friends, family or romantic r/s.

One thing I know for certain, if I were still angry or hurt in regards to my r/s with my exBPDgf and not done any self work, I would not have fully grieved it, nor grown emotionally and would have inevitably, unknowingly, dragged my unresolved emotions into a future r/s

[going places]

Blim are you hesitant to simply analyze yourself and then own it without broadcasting so that perhaps you are not alone in a struggle you found in yourself?  I know very little about you and do not act otherwise.

Look if people were not experiencing an internal struggle why the heck would they need a support forum?

Some folks may just need to know they are not alone, and that there is an 'end' to the madness, and there is Joy on the other side.

Some folks don't have anyone in real life, to talk too.

Some folks simply don't understand what is happening and do not have the means for a T... .

But yeah I did discover an internal struggle within myself.  On leaving board everyone talking about what they are struggling with inside.  Format of us who pwBPD ex is gone and they are struggling that is an internalized struggle.  Was it just a response to the pwBPD no it wasn't my ex filled some kind of void in me.  With her I felt complete.  If I had felt complete without her I probably would have left as soon as I felt a shift towards devaluing in the relationship and when I brought it up she would dysregulate.  I probably would have been sad but that was a clear sign I was in denial of.  

I think at some point everyone does a "gut check". Some do it to an unhealthy extreme.

That's because they are trapped in the abuse cycle.

Not everyone experiences the same situation... .some people were deceived.

Truly, they believed it was ok... .there were no "red flags"... .it does happen.

Some folks grew up in an unhealthy environment, and this behavior, was "normal". This is all they ever knew.

The struggle is one of how we perceive ourself vs some idealized version of ourself that we are possibly working towards in the illusion of "progress." Lol its a joke really

That is an insult, and very negative.

Broken people who see the pieces of their lives scattered on the floor; who have a vision of that 'vessel becoming whole again' are working towards a goal, and to achieve that goal, there will be steps taken; that's progress.

It's not a joke. It's real. And it's GOOD.

It's like we are comparing ourself to "cool." Except I stopped caring about "cool," years ago so now it's something else.  This inner critic.

"Cool" is an image.

Wholeness, is not. It's real. And it's obtainable.

Except now we would like to see ourselves as "happy or succesful." Etc.  But at some point somewhere in making that happen it's going to require somone somewhere else to suffer a great deal in order for me to achieve that "success," but as long as I can remain ignorant of that I can convince myselfje success is real.

Untrue.

SO very untrue.

If my idea of "success" is being a home owner, and my home is a small mobile home on a tiny tiny spot of land, and I work hard, work 2 jobs, save my money, use coupons, scrimp and save, the day I move into my home, is success.

I hurt no one in the process, no one suffered, and I have achieved success.

Everyone has their minds eye of the definition of "success" or "happiness" or "joy".

The reality is that's all a thin vaneer.  Everything comes from somewhere and the cotton from my shirt was probably picked by a slave in some other country.  But they are so removed I can't feel their pain because it's out of mind.  So on a more local level the fear of my residence being broken into because their is poverty a few towns over.  Or the fear of if I dont conform to the ideals of society I will slip through the cracks.  Just that nurtures and fuels the inner critic.  

Then buy your shirts from an American company you can research.

Buy your clothes from "Fair Trade" companies.

My ex used to 'circle talk' me.

He would start on one thing, switch, switch, switch, hoping I could not keep up or remember.

But I could. Both.

So when he figured out he could not beat me down with that game, he'd deny he said what he said... .

Even if it was a text or email.

When I confronted him w/ the text-email; he'd say "that's because you said _______"

No, no I didn't.

Then it was the silent treatment... .

You could not get him to stay on point; that was part of his game.

*I* knew what he was doing... .*I* knew it.

BUT until I saw an abuse advocate, until I came to this site... .I had times where I questioned myself (and I NEVER should have, because I WAS RIGHT)... .and I am THANKFUL for those who come here, share their stories, their lives, their hopes, their dreams, their PROGRESS... .it give HOPE.

Hang

On

Pain

Ends

HOPE.

[Tim300]

I don't believe that most nons here should blame themselves or try to dig deep into their childhood to stir up what might be wrong with them.

.

"The body's uncomfortable emotions happen only to remind you that there's a thought available for questioning."~ Byron Katie

I stayed in my r/s with my exBPDgf because I thought I could somehow change the outcome of the route the r/s was going when things started going haywire. My belief that I could actually DO this came from my experiences from childhood. It's not about finding out what's "wrong" with you. It's simply about finding our own behavior patterns and looking at what WE can change, or question, about ourselves so that in the future we can participate in healthier r/s.

I think in most cases the non here was simply blindsided by the concept of BPD and wasn't exposed to the truly outrageous behavior of it until a major relationship commitment had already been made.

This is when BPD behaviors really start to show. Once they feel they "have you" they start to fear they'll lose you, their fears of abandonment kick in. This is crux of BPD. I think you're right, we were blindsided. Why? There were likely flags well before the outrageous behaviors but we missed them. Why?

I will only speak for myself, I wasn't self aware nor was I emotionally mature enough to see the flags. Once I started looking inward I started seeing the flags in others. It's a side effect of self awareness. A welcome side effect.

Suzn -- thank you for your thoughtful input. 

As far as participating in healthier relationships, I would point out that not everyone here clung on for years and years of abuse in a lopsided relationship.  If the seemingly abusive behavior didn't surface until after you were engaged or married to the person (or completely moved in together or having a kid together), it seems reasonable to me that the non would spend at least some time trying to figure out what was going on and trying to resolve whatever the problems were.  From my personal experience and from having read the stories here, it seems like in the lion's share of cases the pwBPD kept hidden the bizarre behavior until after commitment was made.  That is to say, if the behavior was present at the outset, most of the nons on this board would never have been in the relationship to begin with.

With respect to why a given non missed the red flags of BPD, I think that is a tall order.  It's one thing to notice red flags that a person is a bit eccentric or noncommittal; however, the thought processes of a pwBPD are so irrational and counterproductive, that I doubt any non having no knowledge of BPD would put two and two together and predict that the pwBPD would beg for marriage and then try to destroy you for no apparent reason.  Perhaps if the person had already had 2 or more divorces you'd be on alert, but even then you probably wouldn't have any idea of how bizarre, abusive, and outrageous the behavior would get.  I don't think nons here need to spend much time internalizing how they weren't able to predict this; most were simply blindsided because there is a lack of awareness about BPD.

[Suzn]

As far as participating in healthier relationships, I would point out that not everyone here clung on for years and years of abuse in a lopsided relationship.

Very true Tim. I hung on for 5 years, on and off. The first red flag in my own behavior patterns, I should have walked away long before. We see many members in short term r/s that are completely devastated.

If the seemingly abusive behavior didn't surface until after you were engaged or married to the person (or completely moved in together or having a kid together), it seems reasonable to me that the non would spend at least some time trying to figure out what was going on and trying to resolve whatever the problems were.

Absolutely true that it's reasonable to spend some time trying to figure out what's going on. There are many members working to better their r/s on the Staying board, the Parenting board and the Healing board. It takes two to tango, there are ways to communicate with a pwBPD prior to things escalating. The decision comes down to whether or not you want to invest in learning about these communication skills. And to be fair, these skills work very well in any r/s not just a pwBPD.

From my personal experience and from having read the stories here, it seems like in the lion's share of cases the pwBPD kept hidden the bizarre behavior until after commitment was made.  That is to say, if the behavior was present at the outset, most of the nons on this board would never have been in the relationship to begin with.

Flags can be small things that we would otherwise overlook when we are attracted to a pretty face. For instance, when I first met my exBPDgf she immediately started texting me in what seemed like every five mins of the day and expecting me to respond no matter what I was doing. I had originally tried to put a stop to this while I was working or once when I had plans with a family member who was visiting and we were out to dinner. She told me at the time, "I can text no matter what I'm doing" <<---- today, I know that if a person can't respect my boundaries AND if that person is willing to be basically unavailable down the road if I expect them being present with me when we are talking is no longer a small thing, it's a big red flag to me.

With respect to why a given non missed the red flags of BPD, I think that is a tall order.

Maybe so. It doesn't hurt to be aware of the small things that can point to larger things down the road.

It's one thing to notice red flags that a person is a bit eccentric or noncommittal; however, the thought processes of a pwBPD are so irrational and counterproductive, that I doubt any non having no knowledge of BPD would put two and two together and predict that the pwBPD would beg for marriage and then try to destroy you for no apparent reason.

Bpd is very predictable once you know about the behavior patterns and I think you're right we were blindsided originally. However, it opened a door. You are here, you were looking for answers. The are answers here and ones that can help us out in the future. If you agree that BPD is a mental disorder, trying to rationalize irrational behavior as if it's normal and on purpose, to destroy you, is counter productive isn't it? For me, I wanted to know what I did to attract this person and why I stayed once things went way south. Human nature has patterns, we all have behavior patterns. Knowledge of these is a good thing, it doesn't have to be judgmental.

Bpd isn't the only disorder out there, there's NPD, DPD, DID, etc... . just to name a few. They all have behavior patterns with flags that are recognizable fairly early on. www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/mental-health/art-20044098

[Tim300]

As far as participating in healthier relationships, I would point out that not everyone here clung on for years and years of abuse in a lopsided relationship.

Very true Tim. I hung on for 5 years, on and off. The first red flag in my own behavior patterns, I should have walked away long before. We see many members in short term r/s that are completely devastated.

If the seemingly abusive behavior didn't surface until after you were engaged or married to the person (or completely moved in together or having a kid together), it seems reasonable to me that the non would spend at least some time trying to figure out what was going on and trying to resolve whatever the problems were.

Absolutely true that it's reasonable to spend some time trying to figure out what's going on. There are many members working to better their r/s on the Staying board, the Parenting board and the Healing board. It takes two to tango, there are ways to communicate with a pwBPD prior to things escalating. The decision comes down to whether or not you want to invest in learning about these communication skills. And to be fair, these skills work very well in any r/s not just a pwBPD.

From my personal experience and from having read the stories here, it seems like in the lion's share of cases the pwBPD kept hidden the bizarre behavior until after commitment was made.  That is to say, if the behavior was present at the outset, most of the nons on this board would never have been in the relationship to begin with.

Flags can be small things that we would otherwise overlook when we are attracted to a pretty face. For instance, when I first met my exBPDgf she immediately started texting me in what seemed like every five mins of the day and expecting me to respond no matter what I was doing. I had originally tried to put a stop to this while I was working or once when I had plans with a family member who was visiting and we were out to dinner. She told me at the time, "I can text no matter what I'm doing" <<---- today, I know that if a person can't respect my boundaries AND if that person is willing to be basically unavailable down the road if I expect them being present with me when we are talking is no longer a small thing, it's a big red flag to me.

With respect to why a given non missed the red flags of BPD, I think that is a tall order.

Maybe so. It doesn't hurt to be aware of the small things that can point to larger things down the road.

It's one thing to notice red flags that a person is a bit eccentric or noncommittal; however, the thought processes of a pwBPD are so irrational and counterproductive, that I doubt any non having no knowledge of BPD would put two and two together and predict that the pwBPD would beg for marriage and then try to destroy you for no apparent reason.

Bpd is very predictable once you know about the behavior patterns and I think you're right we were blindsided originally. However, it opened a door. You are here, you were looking for answers. The are answers here and ones that can help us out in the future. If you agree that BPD is a mental disorder, trying to rationalize irrational behavior as if it's normal and on purpose, to destroy you, is counter productive isn't it? For me, I wanted to know what I did to attract this person and why I stayed once things went way south. Human nature has patterns, we all have behavior patterns. Knowledge of these is a good thing, it doesn't have to be judgmental.

Bpd isn't the only disorder out there, there's NPD, DPD, DID, etc... . just to name a few. They all have behavior patterns with flags that are recognizable fairly early on. www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/mental-health/art-20044098

Good points.  Thanks Suzn.

[Pingo]

I would agree with the hesitation of Raisins3142 here.  I do think it's great to look in the mirror; however, by and large, I genuinely believe that for most of us here, that look in the mirror shouldn't drag on for too long.  That's to say, I don't believe that most nons here should blame themselves or try to dig deep into their childhood to stir up what might be wrong with them.  Rather, I think in most cases the non here was simply blindsided by the concept of BPD and wasn't exposed to the truly outrageous behavior of it until a major relationship commitment had already been made.  I can speak for myself and say that my attraction to my pwBPD was not related to the positive or negative BPD-related behavior I was exposed to (I was attracted to her primarily because we had a lot in common and she was pretty).  To the best of my knowledge, I believe that the vast majority of people in our society do not "have issues."  I believe that most of the nons here do not "have issues."  I am certain that there are people who aren't facing an "internal struggle" on a consistent basis.  

I definitely have issues. I know for fact that me delving into those issues and the losses that were ungrieved and my childhood pain was the best thing I could have done for my healing. It was also the hardest thing I've ever done. But my desire for change, to never be vulnerable to this kind of dysfunction again, forced me to get very real about my life. Where did my codependent caretaking traits come from? How did they develop? How can I use this pain I'm in to serve me, to help me grow?

You may have been attracted to her bc you had a lot in common and she was pretty but what caused you to stay when you saw the other side of her?

For me, I didn't even realise I was being abused! It was all too familiar for me, it was a repeat of my childhood. I also believed in fairy tales. I wanted the happily ever after and when that didn't pan out, I was slow to accept the reality of it. I had invested so much time and energy into loving a man who just couldn't love me back in a healthy way. I wanted to keep my eyes shut. Until the pain got too much to bear.

This thread is called 'the tough, non-sugarcoated realities of BPD'... . what about the tough, non-sugarcoated realities of us nons who were abused and allowed it?

[Blimblam]

Blim are you hesitant to simply analyze yourself and then own it without broadcasting so that perhaps you are not alone in a struggle you found in yourself?  I know very little about you and do not act otherwise.

Look if people were not experiencing an internal struggle why the heck would they need a support forum?

Some folks may just need to know they are not alone, and that there is an 'end' to the madness, and there is Joy on the other side.

Some folks don't have anyone in real life, to talk too.

Some folks simply don't understand what is happening and do not have the means for a T... .

But yeah I did discover an internal struggle within myself.  On leaving board everyone talking about what they are struggling with inside.  Format of us who pwBPD ex is gone and they are struggling that is an internalized struggle.  Was it just a response to the pwBPD no it wasn't my ex filled some kind of void in me.  With her I felt complete.  If I had felt complete without her I probably would have left as soon as I felt a shift towards devaluing in the relationship and when I brought it up she would dysregulate.  I probably would have been sad but that was a clear sign I was in denial of.  

I think at some point everyone does a "gut check". Some do it to an unhealthy extreme.

That's because they are trapped in the abuse cycle.

Not everyone experiences the same situation... .some people were deceived.

Truly, they believed it was ok... .there were no "red flags"... .it does happen.

Some folks grew up in an unhealthy environment, and this behavior, was "normal". This is all they ever knew.

The struggle is one of how we perceive ourself vs some idealized version of ourself that we are possibly working towards in the illusion of "progress." Lol its a joke really

That is an insult, and very negative.

Broken people who see the pieces of their lives scattered on the floor; who have a vision of that 'vessel becoming whole again' are working towards a goal, and to achieve that goal, there will be steps taken; that's progress.

It's not a joke. It's real. And it's GOOD.

It's like we are comparing ourself to "cool." Except I stopped caring about "cool," years ago so now it's something else.  This inner critic.

"Cool" is an image.

Wholeness, is not. It's real. And it's obtainable.

Except now we would like to see ourselves as "happy or succesful." Etc.  But at some point somewhere in making that happen it's going to require somone somewhere else to suffer a great deal in order for me to achieve that "success," but as long as I can remain ignorant of that I can convince myselfje success is real.

Untrue.

SO very untrue.

If my idea of "success" is being a home owner, and my home is a small mobile home on a tiny tiny spot of land, and I work hard, work 2 jobs, save my money, use coupons, scrimp and save, the day I move into my home, is success.

I hurt no one in the process, no one suffered, and I have achieved success.

Everyone has their minds eye of the definition of "success" or "happiness" or "joy".

The reality is that's all a thin vaneer.  Everything comes from somewhere and the cotton from my shirt was probably picked by a slave in some other country.  But they are so removed I can't feel their pain because it's out of mind.  So on a more local level the fear of my residence being broken into because their is poverty a few towns over.  Or the fear of if I dont conform to the ideals of society I will slip through the cracks.  Just that nurtures and fuels the inner critic.  

Then buy your shirts from an American company you can research.

Buy your clothes from "Fair Trade" companies.

My ex used to 'circle talk' me.

He would start on one thing, switch, switch, switch, hoping I could not keep up or remember.

But I could. Both.

So when he figured out he could not beat me down with that game, he'd deny he said what he said... .

Even if it was a text or email.

When I confronted him w/ the text-email; he'd say "that's because you said _______"

No, no I didn't.

Then it was the silent treatment... .

You could not get him to stay on point; that was part of his game.

*I* knew what he was doing... .*I* knew it.

BUT until I saw an abuse advocate, until I came to this site... .I had times where I questioned myself (and I NEVER should have, because I WAS RIGHT)... .and I am THANKFUL for those who come here, share their stories, their lives, their hopes, their dreams, their PROGRESS... .it give HOPE.

Hang

On

Pain

Ends

HOPE.

You are whole and complete right now.