My revenge: That bridge isn't just burned but incinerated

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I like dreamgirl's reply here.

Also, try this on for a thought experiment.  Reverse all genders in the circumstance and take your pulse on it.

A male here did/was doing the same exact thing to a female ex with BPD.

Would it be seen in the same light?  That is a useful exercise, I think.  I'm a guy, and I think I would see it differently.  Which is instructive to me.

[raisins3142]

I like dreamgirl's reply here.

Also, try this on for a thought experiment.  Reverse all genders in the circumstance and take your pulse on it.

A male here did/was doing the same exact thing to a female ex with BPD.

Would it be seen in the same light?  That is a useful exercise, I think.  I'm a guy, and I think I would see it differently.  Which is instructive to me.

[Infared]

Skip, my BPD ex acted like a 10-year-old during her abandonment (I can;t even call it a break-up... . I was not included).  I can assure you... . it was VERY hard work for me... . but I decided that I really loved her and I conducted myself like an adult.  Truly.   I didn't do any mirroring of her insanity... . so I don't think in my case it was equal emotional levels.  ... . I guess every case it different... . but I DO applaud you for put the question to SirenSong. ... .

 

Hey Infared,  I certainly don't know the dynamics of your relationship  - but I can say that early on, I said the same as you. Hey, I was clam, steady, responsible - I was her rock.  I was the rock for the kids. I was certainly mature in these categories - and she wasn't (she was responsible - to be fair).  My emotional immaturity manifested very differently  - in how I viewed her, myself, my emotions, and the relationship.  It took me a long time to see it.  It was there. Neater.  More publicly acceptable.  But there.

One aspect of emotional immaturity is unrealistic expectations.

Hold on to the seed of this thought. If you ponder it from time to time - you may see it - or maybe not - or maybe its not there.  It's a stone worth turning over to see whats underneath.

Leave no stone unturned ~ Euripides

I thought about this some more Skip... .and I  can admit... .I am not perfect... .but I did not:

1. Lie (she lied to everyone, me, my replacement, her parents, her therapist... .on & on & on.).

2. I was not mean, vindictive or cruel

3. I did not rewrite history

4. I did not mount a smear campaign

5. I did not deceive and cheat

6. I did not abandon her or our relationship to run off with someone that I was cheating with outside of our committed relationship.

I am definitely "more" balanced and mature than she was.

I feel I am damaged from investing my time, love, trust and energy into (at the very least) a mentally ill person. She was an expert at hiding that and deceiving and manipulating. This all slowly unfolded during the relationship.  I feel that I was trusting, faithful and honest. She was not, but certainly "portrayed" that she was.

I feel as though I got stuck in an emotional tornado, was spit out, spit on, laughed at... . and THEN ... . approached by her like none of that ever happened and oh... . "lets talk about the weather!"?  Skip... . I do not act that way. I am thinking that perhaps your experience was a lot different than mine.

I am not taking that craziness on. (I am also not a clam, LOL! ), I was a victim of an mentally disordered person. I am not perfect, no one is... . but I am visiting a BPD site. I do not have that disorder, but I may have PTSD from being assoc. with someone who does.

It took me a while to even understand what had happened.

I certainly don't need to publicly draw & quarter my ex like siren song needs to. I also have some personal dignity. That is not something I would be "proud" of. I have to agree with others here (Raisins for one),who have stated if you reversed the genders in Sirensong's "tale",  I bet the posts would be VERY different on this thread. VERY different. It just would not fly and I think we should all take a look at that.

[Reforming]

Skip, your thought on the different types of immaturity is very valid. I actually think that many of us that end in relationships with PDs, myself included, are or were emotionally immature in different ways.

One example that strikes me about myself is magical thinking - believing that I could change my ex into the nice person that I wanted her to be

Another is not recognising that actions are what really count - not words. I'm sure if I kept going a could a write a long list.

I don't see these a fatal character flaws, but they were an accurate reflection of my own emotional immaturity.

Sirensong as I said in my earlier post I think I can understand your pain and hurt. During the initial year I felt very angry and I fantasised about vengeance. I did some things that were unhealthy and immature, but as the fog has cleared and I've worked on myself I feel less and less of a need for vindication. My ex is a very damaged person who is filled with fear and shame. She hurt me badly, but she was much more badly hurt herself when she was a vulnerable child who deserved better

What will damaging her more accomplish? How will it heal me?

A couple of other quick thoughts

I assume you've come across the multiple references and discussions on this site about the Karpman Drama Triangle. Where would your behaviour fit on the triangle?

Many members frequently reference the poster 2010 as one of the most insightful members and I'd agree. I don't know if you've read his posts, but one of the things that struck me most when I first read his words was the way he frequently challenged NONs to look at their own behaviour and judge it with the same - often very harsh - criteria they used to judge their exes.

Unhealthy or abusive behaviour is unhealthy or abusive no matter who does it

Reforming

[Infared]

Skip, your thought on the different types of immaturity is very valid. I actually think that many of us that end in relationships with PDs, myself included, are or were emotionally immature in different ways.

One example that strikes me about myself is magical thinking - believing that I could change my ex into the nice person that I wanted her to be

Another is not recognising that actions are what really count - not words. I'm sure if I kept going a could a write a long list.

I don't see these a fatal character flaws, but they were an accurate reflection of my own emotional immaturity.

Sirensong as I said in my earlier post I think I can understand your pain and hurt. During the initial year I felt very angry and I fantasised about vengeance. I did some things that were unhealthy and immature, but as the fog has cleared and I've worked on myself I feel less and less of a need for vindication. My ex is a very damaged person who is filled with fear and shame. She hurt me badly, but she was much more badly hurt herself when she was a vulnerable child who deserved better

What will damaging her more accomplish? How will it heal me?

A couple of other quick thoughts

I assume you've come across the multiple references and discussions on this site about the Karpman Drama Triangle. Where would your behaviour fit on the triangle?

Many members frequently reference the poster 2010 as one of the most insightful members and I'd agree. I don't know if you've read his posts, but one of the things that struck me most when I first read his words was the way he frequently challenged NONs to look at their own behaviour and judge it with the same - often very harsh - criteria they used to judge their exes.

Unhealthy or abusive behaviour is unhealthy or abusive no matter who does it

Reforming

Insightful post!

I especially like:

"What will damaging her more accomplish? How will it heal me?"

I agree.

Just because she has a personality disorder which causes her the need to damage me... .

What good is going to come (for myself and my healing), of me attacking her.?

I just cannot validate that behavior... . I have worked pretty hard on my anger stuff with a T though. We are all in different stages of the grieving process, too. I guess.

[Reforming]

Skip, your thought on the different types of immaturity is very valid. I actually think that many of us that end in relationships with PDs, myself included, are or were emotionally immature in different ways.

One example that strikes me about myself is magical thinking - believing that I could change my ex into the nice person that I wanted her to be

Another is not recognising that actions are what really count - not words. I'm sure if I kept going a could a write a long list.

I don't see these a fatal character flaws, but they were an accurate reflection of my own emotional immaturity.

Sirensong as I said in my earlier post I think I can understand your pain and hurt. During the initial year I felt very angry and I fantasised about vengeance. I did some things that were unhealthy and immature, but as the fog has cleared and I've worked on myself I feel less and less of a need for vindication. My ex is a very damaged person who is filled with fear and shame. She hurt me badly, but she was much more badly hurt herself when she was a vulnerable child who deserved better

What will damaging her more accomplish? How will it heal me?

A couple of other quick thoughts

I assume you've come across the multiple references and discussions on this site about the Karpman Drama Triangle. Where would your behaviour fit on the triangle?

Many members frequently reference the poster 2010 as one of the most insightful members and I'd agree. I don't know if you've read his posts, but one of the things that struck me most when I first read his words was the way he frequently challenged NONs to look at their own behaviour and judge it with the same - often very harsh - criteria they used to judge their exes.

Unhealthy or abusive behaviour is unhealthy or abusive no matter who does it

Reforming

Insightful post!

I especially like:

"What will damaging her more accomplish? How will it heal me?"

I agree.

Just because she has a personality disorder which causes her the need to damage me... .

What good is going to come (for myself and my healing), of me attacking her.?

I just cannot validate that behavior... . I have worked pretty hard on my anger stuff with a T though. We are all in different stages of the grieving process, too. I guess.

Thanks Infared,

It's really hard not to take their behaviour very personally when you loved them and believed they loved you back. Accepting that it wasn't personal also means accepting that they didn't love you in the way that you believed. That's hard too because it feels like something that made you feel very special wasn't real... .

I completely agree that resisting the urge for vengeance doesn't mean that you're excusing or validating the their cruel and abusive behaviour, what they did was wrong.

But responding in kind doesn't help you detach and or get any healthier.

When you begin to understand that nature of the disorder you realise that by persecuting someone with a persecution complex you're not just vindicating their deepest fears that nobody can be trusted, you're becoming guilty of the very behaviour that injured you

I found working through the anger and the grief very hard, but I've found accepting and working on my weaknesses even harder.

I also agree with Dreamgirl's comment about the importance of vindication. We all want to be heard and understood - especially when we've gone through a traumatic experience. I that's where a good T comes in

Reforming

[sirensong65]

I appreciate everyones feedback. Though, I am a bit miffed that a response I made to someone elses thread suddenly became a thread where everyone felt obliged to dissect my way of handling my painful experience.

Dreamgirl, I don't date and don't plan to because I lost all desire to allow someone in my life on that level ever again.  He was the first person I had ever let in to that depth, lesson learned.  I am focused and climbing back out of the hole.  I gained weight, I stopped working out, I looked forward to going to bed and not much else.  This is SO not my personality.  That in itself was depressing.

No, I am usually not mean spirited.  I have always been a patient, loving, affectionate person.  But I feel that was what attracted him to me in the first place. 

If my mean spirited comedy material pushes people away, so be it.  My love and kindness is shown to those closest to me who support my shows and know who I am.  Like an actor, my time on the stage performing is an alter ego of sorts, a way to release the intense anger and hurt this person caused me. 

Again, I don't feel the need to get anyones blessing on what I have done to handle my feelings.  Feel free to play armchair therapist on my lack of emotional growth and behavior.  I merely replied to a posters comment asking why do they always come back.  And that was to say, "they don't always come back, I ensured mine wouldn't circle the wagons on me or the girls that came before or during his time with me."  That's all... . one persons story.  Agree or disagree, doesn't change the outcome.

[raisins3142]

When half the people in a virtual "room" full of seemingly intelligent people disagree with me, it often makes me reflect upon things a bit.  


And no one thinks they need to give their blessing.  But if you state something in a public way, regardless of whether or not it was a reply or new topic, then other people will respond.  It is like someone stating "I have a right to express my opinion!" when you simply disagree with them and all you need to reply is "And then I would have a right to express my opinion of your opinion!"  If everyone had patted you on the back, then how would that have positively influenced your resolve?  If it would strengthen it, then why does the converse have no impact?

[Skip]

One of the things we do here is challenge each other.  It's part of the healing and growth process.

Some members invested a lot of time on this thread - not to criticize - not to grind an ax. Rather to be a conscience - a mirror - to help with perspective and self awareness - something third parties are good at. Often we share things that we learned in time and via the process ourselves.

It's not criticism (well, most of the time   ).

We're anonymous here.  The greatest benefit of that is that we can all set our defenses and egos aside - something that is harder in real life.

Are you ok to be involved in the process?  :)o you want to this type of help?

P.S. This was split out as it own thread and it evolved into a thread with a thread where there were a series of posts addressing your issue, not the original posters issue.

[Reforming]

Sirensong,

Nobody has actually stood in your shoes and can fully understand your experience, but I don't doubt that is was enormously painful. I know how hard it is to try and pick up the pieces after being in one of this type relationship.

I also understand how the experience can totally shut you down to the idea of dating.

I've felt like that a lot over the last couple of years, but with time and effort that's gradually beginning to change. I really hope it does for you too because you deserve better.

This community has been a god send for me. It's hotly supported and educated me, it's helped me to be accountable to the better part of me. I could so easily have lost sight of that without this site

Good luck

Reforming

[sirensong65]

I just find it interesting how interested everyone is in how I handled it.

I felt there was something "not right" about the way he did me, and the fact that he devalued all his exes. Nor was he able to remain cordial with anyone he had dated.

So, I went with my gut and reached out to them.  MY doing so answered a lot of questions for them and what I had pieced together in research helped them move forward without feeling they somehow did something to deserve the treatment he gave them.  Was the face book picture announcing that we all convened a little bit cruel?  Maybe. 

Was I always this mean spirited.  No, I took the break up hard, I cried, I became depressed.  He knew I was crushed.  How did he respond?  By taking the replacement on a vacation to the place I had taken him and made so many cherished memories.  And added touch was to pose her and with her at the exact same places, in the exact same way.  How do I know, people told me it was all over the internet as a message to me it seems.  Sweet, it was Christmas and I was drinking to the extent that my friends did an intervention, as I was a three MAYBE four times a year I have a drink, girl.

Yes, it was awful.  I never shared my childhood of domestic violence with anyone.  I had never felt SO safe to share my story and let the walls down that I had built for years and years.  It felt like being raped by your father.  Having the one person you trust betray you SO much and then laugh at your pain and say, "some relationships don't work out, get over it... . ". 

I have never been through something so soul crushing in my life.  I have lost a part of me that I am not sure I can recover.  The comedy was actually something my therapist was in favor of, it helped me turn a corner.  I felt some sort of control of a situation that broke me and no matter what I have tried (sans medication) I haven't been able to return to the happy, loving person I was once.  But, I am able to get out of bed everyday.  I look forward to the performances, I feel purged. 

So, again, I have gotten through it my way.  Some people bury it, some people come here and dissect what happened.  Some people stalk, some people commit crimes of vengence.  I simply shared what I have done. 

THIS is my process, Skip.  I am processing it... . in my own way.  Just as I processed childhood stuff... .

[cosmonaut]

Hey SirenSong,

I understand you are feeling very attacked right now.  I probably would be feeling the exact same to have everyone criticizing me.  I'm sorry that you are feeling like people here aren't supporting you.  I think it is very important to remember that we are all terribly hurting here and we are all on the same team. Despite our differences, we are all here to heal and support each other.

Everyone should indeed feel free to express themselves here, and I hope that everyone does.  This should be a nonjudgmental forum, and the mods do work to try and ensure this, and redirect situations where it is occurring.  There is a difference between expressing and acting, however.  Saying that I FEEL like getting revenge on my ex is much different than actually getting revenge on my ex.  Our feelings aren't wrong.  They are the way we feel.  We are horribly hurt, we are angry, and we want some sort of justice.  There is nothing wrong with that, and we have all probably felt that way at one point in our healing.  We have been grievously hurt and most of us have been seriously wronged too.

I don't think you are some sort of terrible person, SirenSong.  I think you are a very, very hurt person.  I don't agree with seeking revenge, however, and I don't think it's wrong to say that this isn't an appropriate way to be dealing with our anger.  Let's reflect on this.  If it is acceptable to take revenge on someone because they have grievously hurt us, then why are we able to be upset with our exes?  Afterall, they are lashing out at us and ignoring us and smearing us because they feel that we have so terribly hurt them.  That pain to them is very, very real even if it is pain that is a result of their own disordered thinking.  But they can't see that.  We must remember that these are very sick people.  They have an incurable condition that has a profound effect on their entire lives.  They don't have the option of putting BPD behind them like we do.  They have to deal with it.  Every minute of every day of their lives.

I hope that you keep posting here, SirenSong.  We are trying to point out the error in the behavior of seeking vengeance NOT in you yourself.  We know that you are deeply, deeply hurt.  You have been terribly wronged.  And it is completely natural to feel extremely angry about that injustice.  It is completely natural to need to express it.  And everyone here is ready to support each other in that.

[Skip]

That was your process - last week, last month, whenever it happened.

My question is about the process here, today, tomorrow.  Are you willing to open it up and have others peak in, assess, make suggestions, give you things to think about?

It's hard to hear sometimes.  I remember, when I was passing through the classroom here being told by a moderator to step it up. It stung a little. She wasn't telling me what I wanted to hear.  She was right.

I milled it over.  I stepped it up.  It helped.

Are you ok to be involved in the process?  :)o you want to this type of help?

It's ok to say no.    Sometimes we aren't ready.

[JohnLove]

Hello sirensong, I have followed this thread with interest and even more so when out of the blue it "turned"... . if you want my blessing, here it is.

I can find no "fault" in your actions or responses. It seems too many people here have lost their sense of humour when dealing with such serious stuff. I know what comedy is. It is most often someone's "take" on real life, presented as truth, from a perspective that is ultimately shared... . and enjoyed.

Making light of life is one of the main ways to cope and endure and SUCCEED in this world. Remembering that no one gets out alive. It is often referred to as gallows humour. Making light or jokes about the most serious subjects that one must confront is a proven method of surviving and enduring but most importantly evolving.

Some of the posters that have responded here VERY valid points, others have valid points to their own predicament or suffering, and still others have more general observations.

I don't feel what you are "performing" is vengeance. It is more like rebalancing. Making something positive out of something negative. There is nothing else to be gained.

Ultimately there is nothing right about what your disordered ex did and nothing wrong with what you are doing. For sure it's a little unconventional. It is your path. You know it. You go girl.

[sirensong65]

I don't look at it as taking revenge. I see it as exposing the truth.  He has gotten away from this for years, I found five women he has severely damaged.  And those are just the long term ones that he jarred on and on about.  Who knows how many others are out there and STILL think they did something.

I didn't do anything to hurt them.  He said I didn't do anything wrong.  That he should have warned me that he can't feel deeply for anyone and gets "bored" easily.  Really?  You think you should have shared that with me?  When?  When you moved in?  When my kids got attached?  When you asked me to marry you?  When we were designing wedding bands and behind the scenes you were STILL active on the online dating sites?  When you broke off the wedding two days prior?  When I stood by you after that cause you cried "I'm depressed... .I have a history of depression, I should have told you.  I don't want to marry feeling sad like this... .".  Or should you have told me when you recycled me and I took you back even after you were diagnosed with Bi Polar and I offered to go to therapy with you and support you because I loved you unconditionally... .yet at this point you were STILL dating and sleeping with random women behind my back... .  Seems to me there were PLENTY of times to tell me you can't FEEL and this was all a freaking play you act out with EVERYONE.

Am I hurt?  Am I angry?  You damn right I am.  He has taken me away FROM ME.  I was ready to commit suicide Christmas 2013.  The guilt I still carry that I was ready to end it and destroy my kids because the pain for me was too much is something I can't put into words.

I don't date because I don't trust my judgement anymore.  And I can't even "try it" without breaking into hives and having panic attacks.  I have NEVER had panic attacks, who the hell  am I.  I look the same but the person, the soul on the inside is dead.

I make a joke about it in my act... .  "Friends try to fix me up but I tell them, save your friends, don't set them up with me... . (I circle my chest with my finger) see, I'm dead inside... . nothin to see here, folks."  I make a joke out of it but it is TRUE.  

I am doing what I have to do to survive.  I have found a technique that works for me.  Just typing about this $%&^# has made me cry hysterically, something that I don't do anymore.  So, you guys can carry on here but I am done with the thread.  That's the story. Nothing more to say about it.  I have to  leave this conversation/

[123Phoebe]

Am I hurt?  Am I angry?  You damn right I am.  

Just typing about this $%&^# has made me cry hysterically, something that I don't do anymore. 

It's all part of the grieving process, sirensong65

I am doing what I have to do to survive.  I have found a technique that works for me. 

Is it "working for you", or are you working for it; a reason to stay attached to the pain of blame?  Rounding up others to validate each other in it.  Keeping each other stuck.

Seems to me there were PLENTY of times to tell me you can't FEEL and this was all a freaking play you act out with EVERYONE.

I have to  leave this conversation/

When emotions become too overwhelming, it's pretty common to shut down. 

It takes a lot of guts to face ourselves

[Skip]

Are you ok to be involved in the process?  Do you want to this type of help?

It's ok to say no.    Sometimes we aren't ready.

I have found a technique that works for me.  Just typing about this $%&^# has made me cry hysterically, something that I don't do anymore.  So, you guys can carry on here but I am done with the thread.  That's the story. Nothing more to say about it.  I have to  leave this conversation/

OK.  We can end it here. 

I might suggest that - for anyone not wanting to hear the opinions of others - that you simply note at the top of your post that you are just saying your piece, you are not yet ready for anyone to challenge or reflect back what you are saying.

These are difficult recoveries. The time will come.